Star Wars

[bsu legato]

For example - BSU and I couldn't disagree more fervently over the Star Wars franchise.  I love the old, original version films and he's down with the new stuff.  We'll both express our opinions and point out when the other might be wrong, and makes jokes at the other camp's expense all the time...

That's just because you're a smelly doo-doo head.

But Wookiees do kick ass.

Edited April 13, 2005 by bsu legato

[Majestic]

Lets not start a 4th SWEPIII thread please. It is tough enough to remember who is posting what in which thread as it is.

Don't worry, I'll keep critical commentary in this thread for the time being. When Episode III is released, I'm sure there will be several threads that crop up. At that time I'll consider creating a separate critical thread as needed or if there is a more appropriate pre-existing thread.

[do not disturb]

Word. Having reviewed this thread... still shaking my head at Hurin and Haterist pointing out the futility of long winded no-point argument (my little ones have all grown up now! )...

i wouldn't say all grown up....i just know better.

i've discovered, its far more civil(and a whole lot easier) to disagree with someone using a bit of humor rather than a long winded nitpicking post.

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever!

[Jemstone]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever!

I disagree. Nobody will ever top Edo.

[Majestic]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever!

Sorry you consider me long-winded, just trying to be communicative, I guess at the expense of being succinct!

[do not disturb]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever!

Sorry you consider me long-winded, just trying to be communicative, I guess at the expense of being succinct!

no need for apologies, just keep your posts short and sweet and it'll make people want to actually read it. thats me having a sense of humor.

j/j

[lt.actionjackson]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure 1/1 low viz or final vegeta are probably way ahead of him.

[Majestic]

To de-rail the endless winking smilies, here's a captioned Ep. III trailer that's mildy entertaining:

http://www.flapdoodle.org/sw/SW_ep3_trailer_captioned.wmv

[do not disturb]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure 1/1 low viz or final vegeta are probably way ahead of him.

alright, my post wasn't so people could single someone else out that they think deserves the MLWPME award.

i actually have no idea who the most long winded posting member ever is but i guess someone could start a seperate thread and we can have a vote.

[Majestic]

i actually have no idea who the most long winded posting member ever is but i guess someone could start a seperate thread and we can have a vote.

LOIL! Let's keep it contained to Star Wars! Please!

[Hurin]

its ironic that Hurin has chilled out and Majestic has now taken his place as the most long winded posting member ever! 

I'm not the only one who's chilled (most agree that it took two to tango back then). Your "short fuse" hasn't seem to have ignited much in months. But, of course, even if it had, I'd have to leave you alone since we're barred from addressing each other. Eeeek, we could both be banned now!

Anyways, you're calmer, I'm calmer. It's all good. Now let's leave it alone before we piss each other off again.

[Sundown]

We see that Obi Wan is somewhat frustrated with his uberskilled apprentice, and seems to keep him on a short leash. On the other side of the coin, we see that Anakin respects his master ("He's like a father") but at the same time he feels held back. That's all we need in AOTC.

cramming some unnecessary training scenes into AOTC would have been pretty pointless.

Ehh. I beg to differ. The dynamic in AOTC was simplistic and contrived in my opinion. Could have been much deeper. And showing short training scenes laden with meaning would and could have made for interesting parallels and contrasts with Luke's later training. After all, he feels he's partly to blame for Anakin's fall.

And BTW, if anybody had bothered to read the spoiler thread, you'd already know that the first two reels of ROTS establish that Obi Wan and Anakin have finally become the dynamic duo that fanboys have dreamt of.

Been avoiding the spoilers. But goody. But of course now my expectations for that aspect of the film has been increased with this spoiler tidbit.

Whats so wrong about an Anakin who is increasingly concerned...obsessed really....with controlling the destinies of those around him? An obsession that will eventually cause him to make a deal with the devil, destroy all he had ever cared about and eventually kill the very person he was trying to save.

I dunno. Your paraphrase of the supposed current plotline sounds kinda good actually. My take of the current plotline goes: Anakin wants to be uber. He's whiny, arrogant, rash, and has serious issues arising from childhood trauma. He's more concerned about his own vanity and pain than the actual welfare of those he cares about. Maybe it's just the execution, if not the general idea. Somehow I keep missing the part about him caring for others' for their sake first, and not just for his petty own.

It might have been better presented by him actually struggling to fight his anger, pain, and vanity instead of being driven solely by it... with him being controlled and trustworthy at first, and this obsession towards controlling others for their imagined sake culminating later. *shrug*

-Al

Edited April 14, 2005 by Sundown

[Sundown]

whereas all the normal people just say "I love em all!"

The topic of whether the new movies are as good as the old have come up in very casual conversation with:

A Director of our company-- who is decidedly more heavily on the "cool" and social side than any. Charming "suit" type. He's not a geek by any means, nor does he have very strong opinions about Star Wars other than normal mild enjoyment of the films.

A 6 year old Star Wars fan-- nostalgia factor is not working here.

A near-30's friend-- who enjoyed the old films but isn't particularly passioned about them.

A 20-something friend of a friend-- who actually doesn't care for Star Wars that much. He saw the original films in high school, and attributes his lukewarm reception to not having grown up with it.

All have observed casually that the new film/films aren't quite as good as the old.

Their appreciation of EPI and/or II ranged from enjoyment to outright criticism. But regular "normal" folk seem to be able to discern the difference of quality between the OT and PT somehow. Theoretically they shouldn't be able to, because it's only the dorks who can imagine such a thing.

-Al

[bandit29]

My friends and I are casual Star Wars fans at best. All around 30-31 or so, fairly normal I suppose. We all drink, married/divorced etc lol. We all thought TPM wasn't very good(except for the final lightsaber battle) and AOTC was alright. And about the special editions, we all don't hate them but we kinda feel alot of the changes/additions were unecessary(for example the new shuttle scene with Darth Vader in the SE of the Empire Strikes Back). One thing I did like was the additional scenes of the Wampa.

Also it would be nice that original versions were available again to those who want them so they wouldn't have to resort to bootlegs.

My two nephews (ages 9 and 18) think Star Wars is for nerds lol. I don't think I've ever met anyone under 21 who likes Star Wars at all. I'm sure they exist though.

I have high hopes for EP3. Loved what I have seen so far. I'll probably go see it when I'm on vaction in North Carolina (I'll be at the Coca-Cola 600 and a Hendrick car better not win...again grrr) in May.

A1's generalization of only normal people love them all is as asinine as Fox news. And he knows it. He's just saying BS to get a rise outta everyone. As usual lol.

[bsu legato]

Ehh. I beg to differ. The dynamic in AOTC was simplistic and contrived in my opinion. Could have been much deeper. And showing short training scenes laden with meaning would and could have made for interesting parallels and contrasts with Luke's later training. After all, he feels he's partly to blame for Anakin's fall.

I hear what you're saying, Sundown. I just think that in terms of characters and their relationships Lucas has always tended to paint in broad strokes. For example, look at Lando. He goes from despised traitor to valued team member in the space of minutes. Heck, by Jedi you'd think he'd been part of the gang all along. I tend to look at the Ani/Obi relationship in AOTC in the same light. They just establish that there's a friendship thats strained both by the short leash Obi Wan has his apprentice on and Anakin's ambition, then they move onto the real story of seperatists, plots and stupid teenage love.

I dunno.  Your paraphrase of the supposed current plotline sounds kinda good actually.  My take of the current plotline goes:  Anakin wants to be uber.  He's whiny, arrogant, rash, and has serious issues arising from childhood trauma.  He's more concerned about his own vanity and pain than the actual welfare of those he cares about.  Maybe it's just the execution, if not the general idea.  Somehow I keep missing the part about him caring for others' for their sake first, and not just for his petty own.

But that's just it. He does't care about other people's welfare. He may think he does, but it's really just for his own selfish reasons. Lucas has said time and again that Anakin is greedy, that he wants everything to remain static and how he can't accept that in the natural order of things people leave your life and even die. Listen to his eulogy for his mother, for example. Cliegg Lars says some simple words about how kind Shmi was, and how wherever she's gone is now a better place. Then in stark contrast, Anakin rambles on and on about me, me, me. "I miss you. I won't let this happen again. I will become so powerful, I'll stop people from dying." I'm sure she would have appreciated the sentiments, but jeeze...save it for your Blog, Anakin.

It might have been better presented by him actually struggling to fight his anger, pain, and vanity instead of being driven solely by it... with him being controlled and trustworthy at first, and this obsession towards controlling others for their imagined sake culminating later.  *shrug*

Could be. We'll have to see how ROTS plays out before we can finally judge him. But this reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. I'm not even sure how much we're supposed to sympathise with Anakin by this point. I see him as a person who has spent the last few years (starting in AOTC) making increasingly poor choices. He may have started off as an angel-hearted but oh-so annoying kid, but he's been slowly going downhill since then and by ROTS he'll be going too fast and have too much momentum to stop. People have asked "Where is the tragedy if we don't care about Anakin?" Maybe we're not supposed to really care for him. Lets face it, regardless of his intentions he won't do anything really "good" until Jedi when he pitches Palpatine down the reactor shaft. I think that is the point where the audience is supposed to say "Well its about time you did something worthwhile, Anakin." Its the first truly selfless act he does in his adult life. Thus he gains the enlightenment that has eluded him all this time, allowing him to join the Force like Obi Wan, Yoda and Qui Gon before him.

Just a side note about unlikeable protagonists in tragedies. Am I the only one who found many of Shakespear's characters to be really unlikeable? Its been a long time since I read any of his plays, but I do really remember disliking his "protagonists" such as Macbeth and Romeo & Juliet.

[Blaine23]

I hear what you're saying, Sundown. I just think that in terms of characters and their relationships Lucas has always tended to paint in broad strokes. For example, look at Lando. He goes from despised traitor to valued team member in the space of minutes. Heck, by Jedi you'd think he'd been part of the gang all along.

Yeah, but he had the power of Colt 45 on his side! Never underestimate the power of malt liquor... it indeed works every time.

But you have good points about Lucas' writing and it's weaknesses. But I have to say this cracked me up for a good 10 minutes:

Then in stark contrast, Anakin rambles on and on about me, me, me. "I miss you. I won't let this happen again. I will become so powerful, I'll stop people from dying." I'm sure she would have appreciated the sentiments, but jeeze...save it for your Blog, Anakin.

Hee. Anakin needs a blog. And a collection of emo cd's.

And not that it's any kind of honor - but Jemstone's right - Edo was the lord emporer king diety of long-winded posting.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Blaine23

[do not disturb]

well you guys got to remember, in each of the movies, a bunch of years go by, for that reason there has to be gaps within the character development. i.e. lando. if it were less spaced out there wouldn't be as much of a issue but thats how it goes sometimes.

TPM, well i won't go there cause i didn't like it all that much and thought it was more directed to kids than the adult fan base. i understand what GL was trying to do, and i guess i'd do the same thing since kids are the ultimate comsumers and i'd want to make the most money possible. that being said, TPM sucked the suckies suckers balls.

i feel you that AOTC should've been done on a deeper level. i felt as thought GL should've added a lot more of Anakins training and his inner battle with good and evil(like ESB) and a lot less of the cheesed out love story with padame...though it is kind of an important part of the story, it didn't have to be so cheesey. its like pulling teeth watching the horrible acting in those scenes IMO.

but in all fairness, i liked the fact he tried something new(drama) with AOTC by making it into more of a mystery story than an all out space battle or something of the like. i think a lot of it had to do with the feedback(mostly negative) from the older fans that bashed TPM for being too much of a kiddie movie with a lack of story. AOTC was full of story(as most mystery movies are) but not the ones fans really wanted to here about.

[Agent ONE]

...

A1's generalization of only normal people love them all is as asinine as Fox news. And he knows it. He's just saying BS to get a rise outta everyone. As usual lol.

First of all, I never do that... Second of all Fox News is always right. Its the only balanced news organization.

[Majestic]

Second of all Fox News is always right. Its the only balanced news organization.

Best joke I've heard all day!

[Agent ONE]

Second of all Fox News is always right. Its the only balanced news organization.

Best joke I've heard all day!

Oh so you have already shown us what a pretentious fake artistic SW fan (which really means general hand job) and you are now expand your loserness by ripping on a multibillion dollar news organization. FN is the first organization that doesn't cater to the pussies of this country.

[Majestic]

Oh so you have already shown us what a pretentious fake artistic SW fan (which really means general hand job) and you are now expand your loserness by ripping on a multibillion dollar news organization. FN is the first organization that doesn't cater to the pussies of this country.

I guess your definition of pussy is anybody who gets their news from multiple news organizations with a more centrist and balanced approach (CNN, Nightline, New York Times, BBC News, Washington Post). Fox News is fairly well documented as being primarily right-leaning, filling their programs with punditry and generally losing all credibility as being "fair and balanced". That's why they changed their tagline recently to "we report, you decide".

I'm not going to sink to your level of insult, I'm not as weak as you are in that respect.

Signed,

Pretentious Fake Artistic SW fan, aka General Handjob.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Majestic

[Hurin]

Second of all Fox News is always right. Its the only balanced news organization.

Best joke I've heard all day!

Oh so you have already shown us what a pretentious fake artistic SW fan (which really means general hand job) and you are now expand your loserness by ripping on a multibillion dollar news organization. FN is the first organization that doesn't cater to the pussies of this country.

Oh so you have already shown us what a pretentious fake artistic SW fan (which really means general hand job) and you are now expand your loserness by ripping on a multibillion dollar news organization. FN is the first organization that doesn't cater to the pussies of this country.

I guess your definition of pussy is anybody who gets their news from multiple news organizations with a more centrist and balanced approach (CNN, Nightline, New York Times, BBC News, Washington Post). Fox News is fairly well documented as being primarily right-leaning, filling their programs with punditry and generally losing all credibility as being "fair and balanced". That's why they changed their tagline recently to "we report, you decide".

I'm not going to sink to your level of insult, I'm not as weak as you are in that respect.

Signed,

Pretentious Fake Artistic SW fan, aka General Handjob.

You're both morons:

A1, first, you're being a jerk by intentionally injecting politics into this thread in yet another attempt to throw it into mayhem. But you're always a jerk, and so many love you for it (oddly). . . so we'll let it slide.

But, on the merits (such as they are) of what you said: Even conservatives agree that Fox News is conservatively biased. I'm conservative, and I see it. Even Fox News itself sorta "winks" from time to time. Yes, they have liberals on their shows. . . but they do so in the same "token" sense that other news organizations have conservative hosts and guests. . . which brings us to. . .

Majestic:

Dude. . . you just listed the five most liberal news outlets that are widely available to the US public. That's not balance. I'm surprised you didn't list NPR! At least conservatives have the decency (for the most part) to admit the existence of news sources that are biased in their direction. But Liberals love to declare that all their news sources are unbiased. . . because the news sources say they are!

To sum up: Fox News is biased. But no more biased towards the right than CNN always has been towards the Left. And don't even get me started on CBS/NBC/ABC. Until the recent diversification of US News sources, they were essentially the same news service, parroting whatever the New York Times decided to print that day.

Oh, and Fox News has always used the "we report, you decide" tagline alongside others. That's not new. . . sigh.

H

Edited April 14, 2005 by Hurin

[Majestic]

Dude. . . you just listed the five most liberal news outlets that are widely available to the US public. That's not balance. I'm surprised you didn't list NPR! At least conservatives have the decency (for the most part) to admit the existence of news sources that are biased in their direction. But Liberals love to declare that all their news sources are unbiased. . . because the news sources say they are!

I'd like to see the specific instances of a liberal bias in any of those listed organizations. The New York Times I can see as being left-leaning, but none of the others. If anything, post-September-11, most legitimate news organizations have been fearful of bias in either direction, specifically when the right has been badgering them for years of a liberal bias. The BBC I use for world reporting, and as a foreign news service, they can't be "leaning" in either direction.

Please link me to information on hard evidence of a liberal bias for CNN, this is a legitimate request, as perhaps there is more than meets the eye in that regard.

EDIT: You can PM me links, as I'd like to steer this thread back OT.

Incidentally, I don't specifically tune in to CNN thinking "they're going to show me the news I WANT to hear", unlike the model that Fox News (the Bright Red State of television) subscribes to.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Majestic

[do not disturb]

in case you boys haven't figured it out, A1 is purposely breaking your balls. i imagine its for his own personal entertainment as that is his steez.

[Hurin]

The BBC I use for world reporting, and as a foreign news service, they can't be "leaning" in either direction.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! Because they aren't American they can't be biased?!? They still have a point of view. . . and it seeps into their reporting whether intentionally or not. You want links? Here you go.

I'll send you more via PM if you want. But why don't you just google? Trust me, there's plenty. But asking for "hard evidence" of bias is ridiculous and illustrates your naivete where politics are concerned. You can't prove bias because you can't know for certain what is in someone's head and what motivates them. But, just as you smell bias when you see Fox News, conservatives have been smelling bias for the last twenty years while watching the major network and CNN. You can't prove Fox News bias, just as I can't prove CNN bias. Saying that it is "well documented" proves nothing. . . because it's always "well documented" by the other side. Conservatives have been charging "media bias" for decades. . . citing surveys showing 70% of reporters are democrats, etc. . . but they're always dismissed by the other side. If there were a way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would have been done.

And, in case you haven't noticed, CNN and Fox News report on the exact same thing about 95% of the time. The difference is how they spin it. If you don't think CNN is putting any spin on their stories, then I can't help you.

H

P.S. haterist, yes, I realize this is just what A1 wanted. But, this guy is pissing me off.

[lt.actionjackson]

Okay, can we just go back to the part where we were bashing PT fans vs OT fans? At least that was Star Wars related.

[bsu legato]

Ouch! Point for Hurin.

[do not disturb]

Okay, can we just go back to the part where we were bashing PT fans vs OT fans? At least that was Star Wars related.

word up! take that shiet to PM or something.

[Majestic]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! Because they aren't American they can't be biased?!? They still have a point of view. . . and it seeps into their reporting whether intentionally or not. You want links? Here you go.

That's not what I'm claiming. I said I use them primarily in hearing about foreign news, as the other agencies for such news are lacking, I find. When they're talking about a tsunami in Sumatra, I'm not generally affected by a liberal slant.

I'll send you more via PM if you want.

Sure, that would be appreciated. I'd be happy to read more about these accusations of liberal bias, as I don't really see them as being as readily apparant. I don't consider myself a liberal, if that's what you're trying to pin me as.

But why don't you just google?

The plethora of suspect sites that come up are hardly encouraging. If there's a respected independent review I'm much more open to reading it, rather than sites that have anti-Hilllary flash ads running in the corner.

Trust me, there's plenty. But asking for "hard evidence" of bias is ridiculous and illustrates your naivete where politics are concerned.

I wouldn't consider myself naive where politics are concerned. You're basing this opinion merely on my statements about the media. When I say "hard evidence", I'm looking for the kind of "wink and nod" situations you referenced when addressing Fox News.

You can't prove bias because you can't know for certain what is in someone's head and what motivates them. But, just as you smell bias when you see Fox News, conservatives have been smelling bias for the last twenty years while watching the major network and CNN. You can't prove Fox News bias, just as I can't prove CNN bias. Saying that it is "well documented" proves nothing. . . because it's always "well documented" by the other side.

But wouldn't this render your own documented links of liberal bias as useless then as well. Who is qualified to speak with authority as to whether a news agency is biased or not?

And, in case you haven't noticed, CNN and Fox News report on the exact same thing about 95% of the time. The difference is how they spin it. If you don't think CNN is putting any spin on their stories, then I can't help you.

You're really starting to get condescending here with this "in case you haven't noticed" and calling me a moron deal. Don't we want to avoid that? Of course I've "noticed" how news networks report on the same news. This is why I go to a number of news outlets (not contained to the list from earlier, by the way) in order to get a sound persective from MULTIPLE agencies, be they television, print, internet or radio.

You're right, I don't see the degree of "spin" that you're describing in the traditional news networks, print and radio, except for the left nuance of the New York Times and Salon.com. As I've just said, there's many more news agencies I watch/read/listen to.

[do not disturb]

anyway...

this new movie is going to rock.

[EXO]

[Majestic]

That Vader image set makes me lol.

[Agent ONE]

HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hurin]

If there's a respected independent review I'm much more open to reading it

Majesitc,

There is no such thing as unbiased journalism. So your search for ever-elusive proof from an "independent review" will be fruitless. Those that you look to for proof are biased themselves. This guy puts it best.

We both need to shut up now. Feel free to rant away. I'm done (and not a standard Hurin-esque "I'm done until you piss me off again and then I'll write two more pages". . . I'm really done).

H

[Agent ONE]

...

A1, first, you're being a jerk by intentionally injecting politics into this thread in yet another attempt to throw it into mayhem. But you're always a jerk, and so many love you for it (oddly). . . so we'll let it slide.

...

Ah! Terrible! I've never been a jerk. I just type what normal people are thinking.

In a way YOU are like this also. You type what iritating people think. You are like the the oposite of me. You exisist BECAUSE I exist... I am your Father .