Star Wars

[promethuem5]

Idk.... the addition of Vader is reason enough to go see it... we finally come full circle and get to see young Vader AND a tricked out lightsaber weilding driod kick major ass. Can't complain.

[CoryHolmes]

we finally come full circle and get to see young Vader

I agree with you on that. Vader in the armour is cool. Vader without the armour is going to be awesome.

[Duke Togo]

I have a question. In ANH, Kenobi refers to Anakin as "a good friend", and genuinely seems to mean it. All I have seen so far in the prequels is that Obi Wan thinks he is an arrogant pain in the ass, and Anakin hates being under him.

Course, I guess you can add that in with the whole Yoda being "same Jedi Master who instructed me"... well, until Qui-Gon was written into the story. Ooopsie. I don't buy the whole "younglings" explaination, either. George just blew the continuity.

[Sundown]

I have a question. In ANH, Kenobi refers to Anakin as "a good friend", and genuinely seems to mean it. All I have seen so far in the prequels is that Obi Wan thinks he is an arrogant pain in the ass, and Anakin hates being under him.

Not to mention that we think Anakin is an arrogant pain in the arse, which makes his "redemption" in ROTJ so much less meaningful. There wasn't much to redeem, and he was never portrayed with the nobility he showed in the final movie. I always saw Vader as having reached into his past noble self in order to muster the strength to trade save his son. We see no hint of such a past self yet.

Maybe they'll spend at least part of the last movie building up Anakin before tearing him down. I can hope.

-Al

[Mechwarrior]

Even though Jar Jar is only a Jedi Knight(Not a Master), what color is his lightsaber? Is he the first Gungan to climb so high in the ranks, I know his distant relationship with the counsil had training advanced From Jedi Initiate to Padawan since the trials were biased against big ears, does this affect the crystals used in their Lightsaber?

[MSW]

everything sense and includeing ROTJ (and all the Special editions of the OT) has largely sucked IMHO, I don't expect any less from ROTS.

Only thing I remotely enjoyied from TPM was the pod race...I didn't really care enough about the characters to care about the big light saber duel

But as bad as TPM was, ATOC was proof to me that Lucas has lost his mind...for as much whineing he does about controling his "story", he extensively padded ATOC with juvenile fan boy wet dream sequences...it was like watching some bad fan fiction come to life with multimillion dollar special effects. I'm now more convinced Gary Kurtz had far more to do with the success of ANH and ESB then Lucas did, at least he was willing to be the "no" man, a very important grounding element Lucas now lacks as he seems currently surrounded by an army of "yes" men.

A proof of this padding in AOTC I give you the scene where Obi Won fights Jango Fett on the water planet...Obi Won burst through the door to find Jango and son about to take off...Obi reaches for his saber and the two fight for a while...lots of flashy SFX...its like a fan boys wet dream seeing this stuff...fight ends when Obi Won again runs through the same frikkin door, and again Jango and son are about to take off...Obi instead pulls out some tracking device and flicks it on Jangos ship...its like deja vue only Jango is some five feet closer to his ship the second time...in the end that whole fight is a null event. extra flashy fat that doesn't advance the plot or anything...a commercial break to sell Jengo Fett action figure features...that Lucas spend untold millions to film the SFX heavy fight scene only to pad out the running time and fulfill fan boy wet dreams shows how little control he really has over the story.

Its also very disturbing that Lucas, whom opted out of the Directors Guild inorder to presurve the styleistic visual film opening established by ANH, would fall prey to the styleized camera work of Blackhawk Down for the big republic clone army raid on Genosios..None of the rapid zoom-ins/outs and crap during that AOTC battle felt like the very well established and maticulusly cultivated visual style SW is known for

Blah! I'm expecting the worse from ROTS

Edited April 12, 2005 by MSW

[ComicKaze]

What's wrong is with the childhood rapage.

I mean, Darth Vader building C-3P0 and the cloned troopers from Poppa Fett PURELY as tie-ins for classic icons is pathetic.

"We can only imagine the mixed emotions Boba Fett must have felt in The Empire Strikes Back when he walked on board the Star Destroyer only to find himself among ten thousand of his dead Dad."

Bobba Fett was never planned to be an important character, fans just ended up loving him so they decided to weasle him into the pre-quel plots in the MOST INSULTING AND OBSTRUSIVE CONTROVERSIAL WAY POSSIBLE.

For me, Lucas lost it the moment the Ewoks appeared and you realized that hey, Star Wars was now really catered to the family crowd and the kids -> therefore child protagonist, cute aliens, Jar Jar, etc.

And it's kinda silly how Palpatine has a "game face" like the Vampires on Buffy. I always thought he was wrinkled and wretched in Jedi because of the extreme age and pure evil that had overtaken his body with time. Now you find it's just instant-on.

Edited April 12, 2005 by ComicKaze

[Ladic]

"We can only imagine the mixed emotions Boba Fett must have felt in The Empire Strikes Back when he walked on board the Star Destroyer only to find himself among ten thousand of his dead Dad."

LMAO

[bsu legato]

Wow, it's good to see you guys are getting warmed up. They say that's important to do before you do anything strenuous. I was worried you might pull something on May 19th.

Edit: I had had a .jpeg that mocked the notion that Kurtz was somehow the be-all, end-all of the OT but I seem to have either deleted it or its on another computer. So instead, as a peace offering, I'll offer you this t-shirt. Wear it in good health.

Edited April 12, 2005 by bsu legato

[combined arms]

The worst thing about the flaws in the prequels is that they didn't have to suck. The Gungans suck in TPM, and the romance is ridiculously juvenile in ATOC. And terrible dialogue that forces wooden performances from some talented actors doesn't help either. Lucas could have kept the main plot structure of both of those movies but by handing over the script to a better writer many of the complaint of fans would have been alleviated.

As for some of the specific plot problems, most of them could be resolved easily. The whole cloning of Jango does seem like a crutch to make Boba Fett more important overall. But one solution would be to have the cloner's planet destroyed so that all of the stormtroopers in the OT are conscript soldiers. The Emperor's "game face" could be explained by having it be the deteriorating effects of a wicked force duel with Yoda. Then it becomes a before/after thing instead. The one tha still bothers me to this day is that i can't figure out why the Trade Fed wanted to invade Naboo. I know that it was all about Palpatine manipulating everyone to take over the government, but who gives a crap about some backwater garden? Did they want to build vacation homes on Naboo and Padme wouldn't give them a permit? WTF?

[combined arms]

I also agree with what was said before about Anakin not being noble enough for his fall to the Dark Side to be meaningful. Here is how I would have laid out the prequels:

I think Lucas wasted a whole movie by having TPM all about Anakin as a kid. Episode 1 should have had him as a new Jedi apprentice with some origin story, too. Here he would be good, but impetuous and emotional, like he is in AOTC. If you want, you can introduce him to Padme here, like in TPM. In fact AOTC should have been Ep 1, minus the romance and with some origin story.

Episode 2 should have been the whole Clone War itself. Anakin would have matured to be heroic and noble overall, but the horrors of the war would start to darken his character. This movie is where you would develop the romance between Anakin and Padme, as well as plant the seeds of his corruption by Palpatine.

Episode 3 would be Anakin's fall and the creation of Vader. Palpatine would use some major event - a betrayal, Padme's death, whatever - to bring him over to the Sith. Then the rest of the movie is Anakin/Vader hunting down and destroying the Jedi while the Emperor consolidates power and Yoda & Obi Wan flee with the newborn Luke & Leia.

I know that a lot of what I described in my versions of Eps 2 & 3 are similar to what Lucas must be doing, but I think that messing up TPM forced him to cram too much into Eps 2 & 3. Having the Clone Wars cartoon helped a little, but as cool as the series was I think it was really a storytelling crutch for Lucas.

[Sundown]

I guess what I really wanted to see was comraderie between Obi-wan and Anakin, like you'd see between Luke and Han, or Obi-wan and Yoda in the OT. Quippy lines traded, a deep sense of implicit trust. Saving each others' lives. A relationship that had some quality of brotherhood about it. A lot of good hearted butt kicking together.

It'd all be a giant setup before the fall, of course. But I think the fall would have been all the more powerful if it actually had you rooting for Anakin against all hope. Instead, Obi-wan's relation to Anakin revolves primarily around babysitting a whiny, overpowered brat.

AOTC Anakin somehow manages to be more immature and annoying than kid-Anakin in TMP (who actually had traces of altruistic nobility). We don't even get to see Obi-wan train-- and possibly mistrain Anakin in the way of the Force. We don't get to compare his approach towards training Anakin from his approach towards Luke (nagging the already l33t Anakin doesn't count).

There's about zero sympathy we can build towards Anakin and his fall, except the sympathy that comes from the fact that he's the good-looking lead and has the girl, and thus by association must be the "tragic hero". We reason that he must have some good to him, in being able to net Padme's love-- in remembering Luke's fixation with the good still left in his father-- and because Lucas tells us so. But as far as we can tell, she's just fallen in love with a whiny, arrogant, genocidal megalomaniac with a serious mommy complex. He's not noble. He's not admirable. He doesn't even evoke awe and dread. He's just fricking creepy.

So we're left conflicted as we watch, understanding subconsciously that we're supposed to have a care about him, while hating everything that we actually see of him onscreen. Right now, I just can't wait for Obi-wan to hand him the whooping he deserves... which although enjoyable, won't involve as rich a story and dynamic as I think it could have.

-Al

[bsu legato]

The one tha still bothers me to this day is that i can't figure out why the Trade Fed wanted to invade Naboo. I know that it was all about Palpatine manipulating everyone to take over the government, but who gives a crap about some backwater garden? Did they want to build vacation homes on Naboo and Padme wouldn't give them a permit? WTF?

Umm...they invaded because Sidious told them to invade. And Sidious is Palpatine, dontcha know? Its as if you understand, and yet don't understand at the same time.

[bsu legato]

AOTC Anakin somehow manages to be more immature and annoying than kid-Anakin in TMP (who actually had traces of altruistic nobility).  We don't even get to see Obi-wan train-- and possibly mistrain Anakin in the way of the Force.  We don't get to compare his approach towards training Anakin from his approach towards Luke (nagging the already l33t Anakin doesn't count).

Sure we do. Or at least, we see as much as is necessary for the story. We see that Obi Wan is somewhat frustrated with his uberskilled apprentice, and seems to keep him on a short leash. On the other side of the coin, we see that Anakin respects his master ("He's like a father") but at the same time he feels held back. That's all we need in AOTC. If fans want to see all kinds of specifics of Anakin's training then they're out of luck. You won't see any Dagobah-esque sequences with Obi & Ani running, jumping and feeeeeeling the force, since all of that would have taken place between chapters. Keep in mind that all six films seem to take place at key turning points in the lives of the Skywalkers, and cramming some unnecessary training scenes into AOTC would have been pretty pointless.

And BTW, if anybody had bothered to read the spoiler thread, you'd already know that the first two reels of ROTS establish that Obi Wan and Anakin have finally become the dynamic duo that fanboys have dreamt of. In fact, Palpatine will go to great lengths to break their bond throughout the films running time. So quit yer bitching.

*Edited horrible spelling error

Edited April 12, 2005 by bsu legato

[combined arms]

Umm...they invaded because Sidious told them to invade. And Sidious is Palpatine, dontcha know? Its as if you understand, and yet don't understand at the same time.

I know that Sidious/Palpatine told them to invade. But why did they listen? What did the Trade Federation have to gain by blockading Naboo? This is never established. And if it is Sidious giving them all the Jedi/Sith mind trick, that isn't established either. It's always been a gaping plot hole for me in TPM.

And BTW, if anybody had bothered to read the spoiler thread, you'd already know that the first two reels of ROTS establish that Obi Wan and Anakin have finally become the dynamic duo that fanboys have dreamt of. In fact, Palpatine will go to great lengths to break their bond throught the films running time. So quit yer bitching.

I've been avoiding the spoiler thread. My goal is to go into the theater next month as naive as possible. Not an easy task.

[bsu legato]

Umm...they invaded because Sidious told them to invade. And Sidious is Palpatine, dontcha know? Its as if you understand, and yet don't understand at the same time.

I know that Sidious/Palpatine told them to invade. But why did they listen? What did the Trade Federation have to gain by blockading Naboo? This is never established. And if it is Sidious giving them all the Jedi/Sith mind trick, that isn't established either. It's always been a gaping plot hole for me in TPM.

The opening crawl tells us that the the taxation of trade routes is in dispute, and that the greedy corporate types have blockaded Naboo. I'm assuming it was intended as a retalitory move, possibly to gain leverage for their position in the senate. But Qui Gon tells us that the blockade/invasion is too overt for the usual Trade Fed modus operendi, and that it made little sense. The film shows us that the Neimodians have little idea what they're actually doing, so I have no trouble accepting that Sidious convinced them to do it either by mind trick or by appealing to their greed. Either way, it can't really be considered a "plot hole" because the film itself tells us that the blockade is illogical.

D'oh! I completely forgot the trade treaty that they wanted to force the Naboo to agree to. It was basically commerce at gunpoint.

Edited April 12, 2005 by bsu legato

[ComicKaze]

All the politics and warfare and conspiracies in the prequel movies really detracted from the central story and I think it's just way too much.

This isn't Tom Clancy or Roman Senate Drama, it's simple Greek Tragedy.

Episode 1 should have been about a teenage Anakin still a slave but discovered by Obi Wan & Qui Gon by some very random but subtly guided event, much like C-3P0 and R2 landing on Tatooine by seemingly serendipidous reasons but really guided by Leia's efforts to find Ben Kenobi as a backup plan to escaping with the Deathstar plans. We could still have the whole: "he's too young to be trained thing" but he shouldn't have been as young as he was. He could still have been a skilled fighter pilot, etc.

Indeed like others said, we needed the greater camraderie, we needed to see the weaknesses yet heroism that we saw in Luke. I feel we could've skipped the whole trade federation thing and the clone wars should have begun or was prexisting in Episode 1, and they shouldn't have been Fett clones either, but I guess they felt like they needed to show the idllyic (and also corrupt) pre-Empire galaxy.

I thin it should've been more character play, with Anakin and Obi Wan (very much himself darkened and self-blaming for the death of his own master but refusing to give into hate as a counter-point) as real heroes that the audience cares about. Forget all the immature pettiness and vanity until later, when Anakin is tempted, and by some tragic event (believing Amidelia was assasinated or perhaps tricked into believing she had betrayed him or cheated on him or something) falling so far, and so fast, to the dark side, to the prejudices of youth and inner darkness and vanity that he could never be brought back.

The slaughter of the Jedi should be almost universally orchestrated by Anakin feeling his brethren had betrayed him by some tragic misunderstanding but resulting in something he can never go back upon. And finally, Vader shouldn't be clamped to the table with his arms like that, it just looks stupid haha. He should rise out of something like the Carbon Freezing pit with lots of steam looking menacing and ready to slaughter more in cold blood.

The whole trade wars -> clone wars -> droid wars is too political and the factions keep changing too much for us to really understand where the jedi actually stand in the midst of everything, not to mention Anakin himself. Lucas should've dropped that stuff and concentrated on the clone wars (something more grisly and grotesque) through 2 films as a violent time where a hero comes of age and eventually falls, giving birth to even darker times until he is redeemed by his son.

Edited April 12, 2005 by ComicKaze

[Majestic]

All the politics and warfare and conspiracies in the prequel movies really detracted from the central story and I think it's just way too much.

I heartily agree. The black/white delineation of who were the protagonist/antogonists in the original trilogy were much more palatable. Sure, political intrigue might be allegorical or relevant, but as a plot device for a fantasy action film, it doesn't work.

Episode 1 should have been about a teenage Anakin still a slave but discovered by Obi Wan & Qui Gon by some very random but subtly guided event, much like C-3P0 and R2 landing on Tatooine by seemingly serendipidous reasons but really guided by Leia's efforts to find Ben Kenobi as a backup plan to escaping with the Deathstar plans. We could still have the whole: "he's too young to be trained thing" but he shouldn't have been as young as he was. He could still have been a skilled fighter pilot, etc.

If only because we wouldn't have had to suffer Jake Lloyd! What's he doing these days anyway? Selling car wax out of his van? I also think they should have made the time period between the trilogies much greater, so more like 30-40 years pass between III and I rather than 16 or 17 (although this would not allow the jedi twins to be born in the third prequel).

The whole trade wars -> clone wars -> droid wars is too political and the factions keep changing too much for us to really understand where the jedi actually stand in the midst of everything, not to mention Anakin himself. Lucas should've dropped that stuff and concentrated on the clone wars (something more grisly and grotesque) through 2 films as a violent time where a hero comes of age and eventually falls, giving birth to even darker times until he is redeemed by his son.

Agree with this sentiment as well. This is how I envisioned the prequels before their release as well. I think Lucas really dropped the ball on the concept of the Clone Wars - and the Boba Fett fanboy in me was hoping for an army of Fett troops at some point.

Oh well. My expectations for this third film are pretty low, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Edited April 12, 2005 by Majestic

[bsu legato]

buncha stuff about Anakin becoming Vader

That may or may not have worked, but its completely removed from the story Lucas has written. And quite frankly I don't see how this is any better than the existing version of Anakin's fall. Whats so wrong about an Anakin who is increasingly concerned...obsessed really....with controlling the destinies of those around him? An obsession that will eventually cause him to make a deal with the devil, destroy all he had ever cared about and eventually kill the very person he was trying to save.

Your story isn't better. Its just different for differences sake.

[Majestic]

Your story isn't better. Its just different for differences sake.

IMO I think it's better. There are those that regard Lucas' storytelling choices in the prequels as poor decisions with poor outcomes. A great deal of the frustration with the prequels stemmed from expectations that should have been, to some degree, fulfilled.

This is just IMO of course, but I'm sure I'll be attacked/insulted for it!

[bsu legato]

This is just IMO of course, but I'm sure I'll be attacked/insulted for it!

Dude, get off the cross. Somebody else needs the wood.

[Majestic]

This is just IMO of course, but I'm sure I'll be attacked/insulted for it!  

Dude, get off the cross. Somebody else needs the wood.

Get off your faltering pillar of righteousness. You're not Lucas' press agent.

Edited April 12, 2005 by Majestic

[Prime]

The one tha still bothers me to this day is that i can't figure out why the Trade Fed wanted to invade Naboo.  I know that it was all about Palpatine manipulating everyone to take over the government, but who gives a crap about some backwater garden?  Did they want to build vacation homes on Naboo and Padme wouldn't give them a permit? WTF?

Umm...they invaded because Sidious told them to invade. And Sidious is Palpatine, dontcha know? Its as if you understand, and yet don't understand at the same time.

It is explained in detail on one of the novels. I believe it was Cloak of Deception.

[bsu legato]

Get off your faltering pillar of righteousness. You're not Lucas' press agent.

You know, if you don't simmer down, I won't invite you over to play the Star Wars RPG. And it wasn't going to be any of that revisionist D20 crap either. I'm talking oldschool West End Games. So play nice.

[Majestic]

Get off your faltering pillar of righteousness. You're not Lucas' press agent.

You know, if you don't simmer down, I won't invite you over to play the Star Wars RPG. And it wasn't going to be any of that revisionist D20 crap either. I'm talking oldschool West End Games. So play nice.

Lol!

[Hurin]

There are certain rules whenever we discuss Star Wars on MW.

Those who criticize the new movies are fanboys with no lives. Yet, those who go to great pains to defend the Prequels, the Special Editions, and basically any George Lucas decision since Ewoks and Boba Fett dying at the hands of a blind man with a stick are supposedly the cooler, more laid-back guys who merely appreciate the movies as fluff. Of course, you then find out that these "cooler Star Wars fans" do things like writing five page essays on why Midichlorians didn't "ruin" The Force.

Oh, and you get bonus points for popping into the thread from time to time merely to mock those who are pointing out what they perceive to be flaws, thus demonstrating how little you care and how much cooler you therefore are. Conversely, those pointing out the flaws in the films are relegated to fanboy nerd status, a target for scorn and mockery by those who appreciate the films more. Wait, now I'm even confusing myself. Let's try again. . .

In a nutshell:

"Lucas is a genius who can do no wrong! Jar Jar ain't that bad! They're all good!" = Cool, casual fan.

"Star Wars has been on a downhill slide since Jedi." = Raging Star Wars fanboy nerd.

Edited April 12, 2005 by Hurin

[Majestic]

Hurin, you hit the nail on the head. Brilliantly stated.

[bsu legato]

Next game session, I am SO killing off your character, Hurin.

[Majestic]

Next game session, I am SO killing off your character, Hurin.

Kill mine first, he's a "charming" CGI Gungan with a mildly racist speech impediment AND the force. He attacks sonic-the-hedgehog style like Yoda and he frequently compares skin to sand while accidently defeating entire fleets in a wacky, endearing fashion while sampling his midoclorian count.

[Coota0]

. We could still have the whole: "he's too young to be trained thing"

He was too old not too young

[bsu legato]

Next game session, I am SO killing off your character, Hurin.

Kill mine first, he's a "charming" CGI Gungan with a mildly racist speech impediment AND the force. He attacks sonic-the-hedgehog style like Yoda and he frequently compares skin to sand while accidently defeating entire fleets in a wacky, endearing fashion while sampling his midoclorian count.

And he has tiny hands. You can't leave out the tiny hands.

[Hurin]

Next game session, I am SO killing off your character, Hurin.

Kill mine first, he's a "charming" CGI Gungan with a mildly racist speech impediment AND the force. He attacks sonic-the-hedgehog style like Yoda and he frequently compares skin to sand while accidently defeating entire fleets in a wacky, endearing fashion while sampling his midoclorian count.

And he has tiny hands. You can't leave out the tiny hands.

He also has to be Luke's uncle, Vader's father, and the roomate of the Emperor's second cousin during clown school. After all, everyone is related to Vader now in some way.

H

[Agent ONE]

...

Those who criticize the new movies are fanboys with no lives. ...

You FINALLY understand!

I feel like the guys that hate the new movies and the Special Editions are just so into SW and their memories of their SW childhood, no matter what it won't be good enough, because it slightly changes what they grew up with. Its like the first time you catch your parents having sex... You are horrified, and you would just rather imagine they just didn't do that... BUT NOW that you DO know that, it changes the way you look at your parents. Its just a matter of how willing you are to accept change.

[MGREXX]

Its like the first time you catch your parents having sex... You are horrified, and you would just rather imagine they just didn't do that... BUT NOW that you DO know that, it changes the way you look at your parents.

So that's why you are so psychotic and disturbed. You brought that one yourself. How about knocking next time?

Everybody knows their parents do it, just just don't think about it....or walk in on them during the "act".

In a nutshell:

"Lucas is a genius who can do no wrong! Jar Jar ain't that bad! They're all good!" = Cool, casual fan.

"Star Wars has been on a downhill slide since Jedi." = Raging Star Wars fanboy nerd.

I think you got it the other way around bud.

Most fans see the movies getting less intresting and less involving, when compared to the original trilogy. Sure the effects are awsome, but there is real not heart in the plotline. They are still enjoyable but the spirit of the original trilogy is just not there.......and let's not EVEN bring up jar jar.

The Fanboys are the really critical ones, who disect the movie on every level. They either love the episodes or they hate them but they still LOVE the overall Star Ward universe.....or they would not be SW fanboys.

BTW, It does look like ROTS WILL be PG-13 afterall:

http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/index.asp

Let us hope the "force" is with George on this, his last hurrah!!!!!!

Edited April 12, 2005 by MGREXX

[do not disturb]

i love how SW fanboys that claim to hate Lucas continuely talk about the man til no end.

if you don't like what SW has become and you don't like GL, then don't join SW forums to bitch about it.

heres a good example....

you know, i hate macross but wait, i'll hang around THE macross site and tell everyone how much i hate it. i'll talk about how macross raped my childhood, robotech is the one and only, and how big west ruined my life.....but wait, i don't like macross and i'm no fanboy.

Edited April 12, 2005 by haterist