Macross II versus Macross 7

[Sundown]

Unless you're a yound adult living in Japan, you're not in the target audience for Macross 7. Or just about any anime series, for that matter.

Okay, fair enough. I suppose young adults in Japan might have a different sense of aesthetics. But at the same time, all this -real-mecha-action seems to be targetted for them, too. I still say M7 was aimed at early teens with a nod towards older fans who might not balk at the super robot cheeziness.

Oddly enough, I've grown more fond of the super robot style that Mac7 uses as I've matured...

Okay, granted M7 gives a nod towards classic Sentai styled robots that a nostalgic older fan might appreciate as sort of an in-joke. But as far as I know, the Sentai aesthetic was always aimed primarily at children.

-Al

[pfunk]

since I havent seen 7, I do like the Stealth Valk, but the fire is a little, yeah. As far as Mac II, I really like the VFIISS, but the enimy mech kinda stunk

[JB0]

Oddly enough, I've grown more fond of the super robot style that Mac7 uses as I've matured...

Okay, granted M7 gives a nod towards classic Sentai styled robots that a nostalgic older fan might appreciate as sort of an in-joke. But as far as I know, the Sentai aesthetic was always aimed primarily at children.

I'm 99.5% sure you're right.

My tastes have insisted on resisting maturity every step of the way, though.

Edited April 6, 2005 by JB0

[Ido]

since I havent seen 7, I do like the Stealth Valk, but the fire is a little, yeah. As far as Mac II, I really like the VFIISS, but the enimy mech kinda stunk

The great macross 7 mecha battle chesiness is about the sound force valks, transformation, sound boosters etc... the other mechs like the vf-11, vf-17, vf-19, vf-14, vf-22 are shown in a much more serious way.

Diamond force(vf-17) rocks, cool mechs and great characters IMHO.

Emerald force (vf-19) is ok but not considered in the anime like the DF.

Cannon fodders(vf-11) Well... you can't find "cannon fodders" more cannon fodder then the M7 white nameless vf-11, when a missile miss a vf-17 or vf-19 you can be sure that it will hit a poor vf-11. UN should have gone for the ghost X-9....

Sound Force, Ugly and silly mechs, overall nice characters IMO.

I have too see Max and Milia kick ass in their Vf-22S yet

If you can endure the sound force I suggest to give a try M7, its always better have self-made opinions.

Edited April 6, 2005 by Ido

[JB0]

since I havent seen 7, I do like the Stealth Valk, but the fire is a little, yeah. As far as Mac II, I really like the VFIISS, but the enimy mech kinda stunk

Cannon fodders(vf-11) Well... you can't find "cannon fodders" more cannon fodder then the M7 white nameless vf-11, when a missile miss a vf-17 or vf-19 you can be sure that it will hit a poor vf-11. UN should have gone for the ghost X-9....

Don't need Ghosts. The VF-11 has a working auto-eject system.

[Agent ONE]

since I havent seen 7, I do like the Stealth Valk, but the fire is a little, yeah. As far as Mac II, I really like the VFIISS, but the enimy mech kinda stunk

Cannon fodders(vf-11) Well... you can't find "cannon fodders" more cannon fodder then the M7 white nameless vf-11, when a missile miss a vf-17 or vf-19 you can be sure that it will hit a poor vf-11. UN should have gone for the ghost X-9....

Don't need Ghosts. The VF-11 has a working auto-eject system.

Which made SOOOO much sense as find floating pilots in endless space would be so simple.

[jenius]

The idea of being ejected in space is at once hilarious and tragic. It leads to the idea of pilots be hurled out of their crafts into the safety of the eternal nothingness around them. They can contemplate the meaning of irony as they safely escape the fiery battle zone and drift endlessly toward starvation or a more horrific death.

BUT WAIT!!! THis is MAC7 we're talking about so it really was easy to find these pilots. The scientist onboard Battle7 would just hook up his giant tethescope (sp?) and listen to the void of space for the Pilots singing in their flight suits!!! Surely the could find those drifting pilots by the power of their song!

[Agent ONE]

The idea of being ejected in space is at once hilarious and tragic. It leads to the idea of pilots be hurled out of their crafts into the safety of the eternal nothingness around them. They can contemplate the meaning of irony as they safely escape the fiery battle zone and drift endlessly toward starvation or a more horrific death.

BUT WAIT!!! THis is MAC7 we're talking about so it really was easy to find these pilots. The scientist onboard Battle7 would just hook up his giant tethescope (sp?) and listen to the void of space for the Pilots singing in their flight suits!!! Surely the could find those drifting pilots by the power of their song!

HAHAHA.

Well they do have the fruity assortment of colors in the Sound Force squad, maybe they could form some sort of lameness beacon so the pilots could aimlessly drift in that direction.

[Ido]

The vf-11 eject the entire cockpit, I think they have some kind of transmitter to be retrieved by the mother ships, ejecting in the space hasn't be invented in M7, so even SDF macross was stupid cause they retrieved the beat up hikaru vf-1j after the battle with the Quel-Quallie, cause i don't think it returned to macross by himself.

All sci-fi shows have this kind of stuff, but of course m7 sucks and every thing in it sucks, i'm wonder why you have to be so paranoic about M7 and don't go to watch anime that you like or to the gym.

[JB0]

The vf-11 eject the entire cockpit, I think they have some kind of transmitter to be retrieved by the mother ships, ejecting in the space hasn't be invented in M7, so even SDF macross was stupid cause they retrieved the beat up hikaru vf-1j after the battle with the Quel-Quallie, cause i don't think it returned to macross by himself.

And even in the original Macross the pilots had homing beacons that activated on eject(if I recall, that was how they found Hikaru after the botched Daedalus attack shot him down).

...

Except there was only one successful eject in the entire series, and a second that was intercepted during liftoff, as opposed to a dozen an episode.

[JB0]

Ooops...

Edited April 6, 2005 by JB0

[Agent ONE]

The vf-11 eject the entire cockpit, I think they have some kind of transmitter to be retrieved by the mother ships, ejecting in the space hasn't be invented in M7, so even SDF macross was stupid cause they retrieved the beat up hikaru vf-1j after the battle with the Quel-Quallie, cause i don't think it returned to macross by himself.

And even in the original Macross the pilots had homing beacons that activated on eject(if I recall, that was how they found Hikaru after the botched Daedalus attack shot him down).

...

Except there was only one successful eject in the entire series, and a second that was intercepted during liftoff, as opposed to a dozen an episode.

Of course THAT was on Earth... On Earth we have gravity, not endless drifting into space.

[JB0]

The vf-11 eject the entire cockpit, I think they have some kind of transmitter to be retrieved by the mother ships, ejecting in the space hasn't be invented in M7, so even SDF macross was stupid cause they retrieved the beat up hikaru vf-1j after the battle with the Quel-Quallie, cause i don't think it returned to macross by himself.

And even in the original Macross the pilots had homing beacons that activated on eject(if I recall, that was how they found Hikaru after the botched Daedalus attack shot him down).

...

Except there was only one successful eject in the entire series, and a second that was intercepted during liftoff, as opposed to a dozen an episode.

Of course THAT was on Earth... On Earth we have gravity, not endless drifting into space.

Doesn't matter. They can send retrieval units out.

They fetched Hikaru, Misa, Max, and Kakzaki out of a Reguld with no homing beacon.

[Agent ONE]

The vf-11 eject the entire cockpit, I think they have some kind of transmitter to be retrieved by the mother ships, ejecting in the space hasn't be invented in M7, so even SDF macross was stupid cause they retrieved the beat up hikaru vf-1j after the battle with the Quel-Quallie, cause i don't think it returned to macross by himself.

And even in the original Macross the pilots had homing beacons that activated on eject(if I recall, that was how they found Hikaru after the botched Daedalus attack shot him down).

...

Except there was only one successful eject in the entire series, and a second that was intercepted during liftoff, as opposed to a dozen an episode.

Of course THAT was on Earth... On Earth we have gravity, not endless drifting into space.

Doesn't matter. They can send retrieval units out.

They fetched Hikaru, Misa, Max, and Kakzaki out of a Reguld with no homing beacon.

Yeah I guess... I have no clue why I am debating this!

Lets get back to Machines with boobs and pedophile panty shots of a 14 year old girl in this "for adults" show.... HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[jenius]

Out of curiousity, did Basara ever show a sexual interest in any female character? I'm pretty sure Hibiki was interested in women but, if I'm recalling Basara correctly, he seemed pretty apathetic toward sex completely. Even with Sivil he seemed more pleased with having an affect on her than he did smitten with her. I think there was even a scene where the ultra hot biker girl was throwing herself at him and I think he was still like "um no, listen to my song." If this show were geared toward an adult audience do you think we'd get at least a little more sex and violence?

PS - my "ejecting" quote earlier was more just making fun of the idea of ejecting in space, not how Macross in particular handles it. The part where I mentioned finding pilots through their singing was definitely making fun of "sound energy" though...

[Agent ONE]

Out of curiousity, did Basara ever show a sexual interest in any female character? ...

Nope. You can't say he was gay either though.

[Tekkaman Blade]

I think he had an interest in Emiria, but when he found out she was Mylene's sister suddenly felt awkward.

I don't see why he would feel weird about that.

[Agent ONE]

I think he had an interest in Emiria, but when he found out she was Mylene's sister suddenly felt awkward.

I don't see why he would feel weird about that.

I agree (sorta forgot about that also). Thats the ONLY reason I didn't think that M7 was Kawamori's way of comming out.

[Tekkaman Blade]

Thats the ONLY reason I didn't think that M7 was Kawamori's way of comming out.

[justvinnie]

DAMN! you guys need a to get a life... I need to get a life too since I can't believe I just read through this thread. I love M7. MII is ok. Don't hate it. So I voted neither. The poll is skewed since it would seem then that even though M7 ranks much higher than MII for me, it isn't salient based on my vote. To truly assess how much more people like one show or the other, you'll need two polls asking people to rank how they liked each show, then comparing the statistics from both poll to each other.

And azrael, it was indeed I who what made that post on the old board. I can't believe you remembered it. I still watch M7 every now and then especially when I start feeling angry and want to bashed someone or something... It's so much harder to refrain from violence.

vinnie

[Aegis!]

I think he had an interest in Emiria, but when he found out she was Mylene's sister suddenly felt awkward.

I don't see why he would feel weird about that.

I agree (sorta forgot about that also). Thats the ONLY reason I didn't think that M7 was Kawamori's way of comming out.

maybe he still has a chance of doing so since Macross 7 wasn´t actually Kawamori´s personal work as he was doing Macross Plus at the time , he supervised M7 production from time to time (hence the results) but it wasn´t his idea to include or not Emiria.

[oreillyrel]

Lets get back to Machines with boobs and pedophile panty shots of a 14 year old girl in this "for adults" show.... HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

For better or worse, the original Macross series has--in the 4th episode even--a naked rear shot in the shower of a 15 year old girl. The Do You Remember Love? film is skating on thin ice as well with its naked full frontal shower shot of the same character. (There is a reason why the college-aged Macross creators nicknamed the three Zentradi spies the Lolita Complex Three.)

Since most fans were not that much different in age from this fictional character in 1982, that probably wasn't a huge concern back then. Looking back almost 23 years later though ... <shiver>

(As for the well-endowed robots, gotta give credit/blame to Go Nagai for his Mazinger Z universe's Aphrodite A/Diana A/Minerva X. <cough>breast missiles)

[Agent ONE]

Lets get back to Machines with boobs and pedophile panty shots of a 14 year old girl in this "for adults" show.... HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

For better or worse, the original Macross series has--in the 4th episode even--a naked rear shot in the shower of a 15 year old girl. The Do You Remember Love? film is skating on thin ice as well with its naked full frontal shower shot of the same character. (There is a reason why the college-aged Macross creators nicknamed the three Zentradi spies the Lolita Complex Three.)

Since most fans were not that much different in age from this fictional character in 1982, that probably wasn't a huge concern back then. Looking back almost 23 years later though ... <shiver>

(As for the well-endowed robots, gotta give credit/blame to Go Nagai for his Mazinger Z universe's Aphrodite A/Diana A/Minerva X. <cough>breast missiles)

Thats only 1 episode, as opposed to every other one in M7..

So dude, whats the other handle you use around here? Is it Keith? Some other closet case?

I SO get a kick out of the fact that whenever a thread like this shows up, M7 loses by a landslide... I mean people show up with torches and pitchforks to share their opinions on this turbo-sissy-2yearold show, and the poll shows it. The slowly over the next few days MW gets a surge of new members who never seem to post, but miraculously all vote in favor of this assless-chap-spank-party show.

[Zentrandude]

Lets get back to Machines with boobs and pedophile panty shots of a 14 year old girl in this "for adults" show.... HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

For better or worse, the original Macross series has--in the 4th episode even--a naked rear shot in the shower of a 15 year old girl. The Do You Remember Love? film is skating on thin ice as well with its naked full frontal shower shot of the same character. (There is a reason why the college-aged Macross creators nicknamed the three Zentradi spies the Lolita Complex Three.)

Since most fans were not that much different in age from this fictional character in 1982, that probably wasn't a huge concern back then. Looking back almost 23 years later though ... <shiver>

(As for the well-endowed robots, gotta give credit/blame to Go Nagai for his Mazinger Z universe's Aphrodite A/Diana A/Minerva X. <cough>breast missiles)

Thats only 1 episode, as opposed to every other one in M7..

So dude, whats the other handle you use around here? Is it Keith? Some other closet case?

I SO get a kick out of the fact that whenever a thread like this shows up, M7 loses by a landslide... I mean people show up with torches and pitchforks to share their opinions on this turbo-sissy-2yearold show, and the poll shows it. The slowly over the next few days MW gets a surge of new members who never seem to post, but miraculously all vote in favor of this assless-chap-spank-party show.

god bless hotmail and yahoo accounts for multilogging. works for games and for polls.

[JB0]

I SO get a kick out of the fact that whenever a thread like this shows up, M7 loses by a landslide... I mean people show up with torches and pitchforks to share their opinions on this turbo-sissy-2yearold show, and the poll shows it. The slowly over the next few days MW gets a surge of new members who never seem to post, but miraculously all vote in favor of this assless-chap-spank-party show.

Landslide? 50/50 isn't even near it.

And it's been hovering about 50/50 since shortly after creation. I'd argue that both sides are stuffing the ballot box, because it's more amusing than neither side doing it, which is the only other statistical possibility.

[Keith]

While there was a bit of interest in Emilia, Basara was clearly taken in by Sivil.

[oreillyrel]

Thats only 1 episode, as opposed to every other one in M7..

So dude, whats the other handle you use around here?  Is it Keith?  Some other closet case?

I SO get a kick out of the fact that whenever a thread like this shows up, M7 loses by a landslide... I mean people show up with torches and pitchforks to share their opinions on this turbo-sissy-2yearold show, and the poll shows it.  The slowly over the next few days MW gets a surge of new members who never seem to post, but miraculously all vote in favor of this assless-chap-spank-party show.

Um, only 1 episode of Macross?

Episode 1: A 29-year-old Roy checks out a 15-year-old Minmay

Episode 2: A 29-year-old Roy checks out a 15-year-old Minmay's rear end. Might as well toss in the Marilyn Monroe number that Minmay does

Episode 4: Well, we've covered the naked shot

Episode 6: Lots of underpants and lingerie. Even a "sukebei" for kicks

Episode 9: Miss Macross. Swimsuits. A 16-year-old.

Episode 12: Many Japanese viewers with male college friends would have laughed at the subtle Lolicon reference

Episode 21: The butt grab. (Remember, even Misa is a teenager.)

Do You Remember Love?: That flying through the streets of Macross scene is probably the most unintentionally funny scene in the entire movie.

(As well as the shot already mentioned earlier.)

That's all I can recall with the help of the web, but I don't keep track of such things.

For the record, I don't have another handle to post here, my name is definitely not Keith or remotely in that half of the ballpark if you know what I mean (I know two anime fans named Keith, but AFAIK they don't post--Castner?), I haven't voted in the poll (why should I? the worst Macross is not on there), and I liked the original Japanese Macross series much, much more than Macross 7--in spite of the tongue-in-cheek Lolicon aspects in both. The first Macross has arguably less Lolicon elements than Macross 7 (one reason I like the original Macross more despite Basara--the attempted assaults in 7 and Dynamite 7 made me cringe), but it still had them. But thanks for your warm, exuberant welcome.

[jenius]

While there was a bit of interest in Emilia, Basara was clearly taken in by Sivil.

My point was that Mac7 is clearly more targeted for children that Mac2 (trying to stick somewhat to the theme of the thread). Children still have idealized preconceptions of love and relationships with no comprehension of sex and its many accoutrements. Mac2 actually plays off of adult relationships (from what I vaguely recall) where Mac7 does everything it possibly can to avoid anything adult. We get an attempted arranged marriage to avoid the potential sticky issues of dating. Mylene in love with a Basara who only vaguely recognizes her as being anything other than male. Gamlin being that retarded kid who has a crush but couldn't tell you why or act upon it... unless he knew it was already too late. Basically it plays up to the girl/boy situation most of us experienced in the 4th grade where we knew we favored some girls but still could say "eww girls are gross" and run away from them (knowing all the while that we are destined to spend our lives with one). When we do get a brief flash of something else it's positively scintilllating since our mind has been sucked into child-like mush by the other 9999 hours of kiddy play. That whole episode with the biker chick wanting Basara was so different from the rest of the child-safe viewing I was practically scarred by it... only to have Basara rebuff her and Mylene deem them both whores (more child safe viewing).

Mac7 simply can not be a show geared for adults... unless it's geared for adults who somehow managed to skip high school and were too afraid to leave their dorms in college.

All that being said, it being aimed at children alone does not make it a bad show. My tastes however are for adult shows and as such I think Mac2 panders closer to what I want than Mac7.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I've always disagreed with the idea that M7 was aimed at kids.

If anything, I think the opposite is true and it was made with a more mature audience in mind.

No, I'm not going to write a dozen paragraphs defending this view, it's just my gut feeling. That and the fact that a certain level of maturity is helpful in accepting some of the more outlandish concepts and visual designs in M7.

It's the general idea that this series was much more lighthearted, upbeat, optimistic, and humourous while to me the original was much more meloncholy, more violent, more dramatic, and much more serious. (a good analogy is to compare something dark like the first Lethal Weapon movie, where the main character is a crazy violent guy who has lost his wife and struggles with this loss, and who the audience can feel sorry for, who by the last movie is used only for comic relief and jokes and there is no more drama left from the original.)

In the original tv series, characters had conflicts and were torn between thier duty, love, and their loyaty to thier relations. They go on a roller coaster ride of feelings and emotions and evolve and grow stronger throughout the series so that by the end of it all, you feel like you've grown with them. You might actualy care what happens to them after space war I and are disapointed that they are just killed off.

Take a character like Kamjin who was part mad, very ambitious, willing to kill people. A scary person, but also very real. Even though it IS fiction you feel this guy is cold and evil and will backstab whoever gets in the way to further his goal and it provides a great element of danger whenever he plots each episode on how to kill humans.

Compare that to protodevlin who just didn't provide a tone of actual fear throughout the show and were not captivating enough to me as an audience member. In the end they were not even evil and seemed more like something I would expect from a "ghostbusters" movie.

I don't mind metaphysical ideas in anime (I didn't mind macross zero because it was presented nicely) just that characters in a series need to match the quality of the ones we saw in the original, in order to not be so disapointing to fans. It's a lot to live up to because I like the the original so much and when watching 7 it felt like the series went on for too long and not much progression was taking place with each episode. Lots of filler and things were spaced apart too much imo. Also by making Basara the hero who comes to save the day with his singing, everytime, each episode, stretched over the course of the series, the idea wears very thin and you are kind of glad that it is all finally over and the conflict resolved. I don't have anything against the actual music itself, but more the way things were done and how there is never really enough explanation as to why only this guy can save us and is so much more special than the other characters. At least hikaru was just this normal guy who you could believe was real.

It is quite possible to make a series that appeals to both young (kids to teens) and old audiences (old school fans of the original) without losing the magic of the original; that hidden ingredient that made us actually care what was going to happen to the characters in each episode. It was just that the story felt a little watered down, the protodevlin were a little single-minded and shallow, and the mecha were not as much a focus of the series anymore. Just a tacked-on addition to make us fans keep watching. (we didn't see much of the VF22 until right at the end which had soooo much potential for giving us regular cool valk duels - imagine max+milia versus hundreds of zombie pilots - similar to the opening scene in macross plus ova)

The weak points in macross 7 to me are mainly to do with the storytelling part. I stuck through it, because:

-I wanted to see mechs fighting, big explosions, herioc deaths, one-to-one duels etc just as I did when I was a little kid. This was provided..... nicely in the end, but because of macross plus raising the bar, I felt so much more could have been done.

-I was curious about who the protodevlin were. Similar to my curiosity about the reference made about clone wars in star wars. Maybe to fans it is worth watching only because it fills up a few gaps in the original series (about the makers of the zentradi) that were left open. I was curious to see what happened to the human race after the end of SW I and the possibility of human and zentradi encountering thier creators or at least the remains of the lost civilisation/protoculture. (like DYRL)

Edited April 7, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sundown]

I've decided. Although I may enjoy viewing M7 more than MII in isolation as a whimsical diversion, the fact that it smears my beloved SDF with all sorts of fruity ungoodness bears my greater and more significant hatred.

The use of eye gouging designs is actually among the lesser of its offenses. The transformation of love and emotion into a quantifiable energy measurable by a meter, bottled by aliens as a refreshing afternoon beverage is its greatest.

Boo M7. *checks the M7 box*

-Al

[Agent ONE]

I've decided. Although I may enjoy viewing M7 more than MII in isolation as a whimsical diversion, the fact that it smears my beloved SDF with all sorts of fruity ungoodness bears my greater and more significant hatred.

The use of eye gouging designs is actually among the lesser of its offenses. The transformation of love and emotion into a quantifiable energy measurable by a meter, bottled by aliens as a refreshing afternoon beverage is its greatest.

Boo M7. *checks the M7 box*

-Al

You are a good man!

M2 sucked, but M7 makes me want to set its little pussy fans on fire and piss on their mothers.

[Keith]

So wait, you're saying Macross II was more adult because it had more sex? While the panty-less Wendy was an interesting scene, 7 had far more instances with possessed Akiko jumping all over..well everyone. Naked Civil, Rex & her zipper, Chiba's questions during the Jamming Birds try outs, Milia, etc.

[jenius]

So wait, you're saying Macross II was more adult because it had more sex? While the panty-less Wendy was an interesting scene, 7 had far more instances with possessed Akiko jumping all over..well everyone. Naked Civil, Rex & her zipper, Chiba's questions during the Jamming Birds try outs, Milia, etc.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Mac7 makes sexual overtures and hints at the fact people can have sex lives while everyone does everything they can to make sure none of the characters have one. Remember that time when Gamlin finally got some balls and grabbed someone's ass? No? Remember that time that Basara did anything to imply he wasn't six years old? No. Yeah, biker chick is hot and bothered (I discussed that), Sivil may be naked-ish but so are teddy bears, I can't really call who Akiko was or what happened during the Jamming Bird tryouts, and when did Milia do anything sexual? I thought after she neutered M7's Max she ensured neither of them would ever have to worry about intimacy again.

Seeing as some people are diametrically opposed to my opinion I think I'll watch Mac7 again and see if it doesn't grow on me somehow. Be forewarned though, if I hate it as much the second time I will come back with a fire and wrath in future M7 threads that A1 only dreams of! <Nah, I'll probably just be slightly more indignant than I already am>

[Radd]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that if you watch it again, you'll like it, but saying that there's hardly any sex related content is simply untrue. Heck, usually people that hate the series bring up the idea that M7 has more fanservice than any other Macross (wich I don't think is true, either).

[azrael]

Landslide? 50/50 isn't even near it.

And it's only 100-something people out of a 2000+ member population.

Naked Civil, Rex & her zipper, Chiba's questions during the Jamming Birds try outs, Milia, etc.

Mylene's panties!!??? How could you forget that???!!

Heck, usually people that hate the series bring up the idea that M7 has more fanservice than any other Macross (wich I don't think is true, either).

Do these people have a problem with fan-service? I welcome it.