Macross II versus Macross 7

[Desram]

Seriously. What was with that? Does he still have normal hands? Are those just his super duper toggle manipulator hands?

[Keith]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

[Radd]

It is true that people are more, much more, likely to speak up about things they hate, than things they like.

[Duke Togo]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

Far more popular? In what universe is this, Keith? I'm sorry, I must have missed the major motion picture, toyline, and other series spun off of Macross 7. Care to point them out of me?

[yellowlightman]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

Far more popular? In what universe is this, Keith? I'm sorry, I must have missed the major motion picture, toyline, and other series spun off of Macross 7. Care to point them out of me?

Well, there was teh macross 7 "movie"

The OVA series

The manga spin-off

The toys and models

The video game

The best selling musical CDs in the Macross series?

Maybe not more popular than the original, but damn close.

[Tekkaman Blade]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

Far more popular? In what universe is this, Keith? I'm sorry, I must have missed the major motion picture, toyline, and other series spun off of Macross 7. Care to point them out of me?

Well, there was teh macross 7 "movie"

The OVA series

The manga spin-off

The toys and models

The video game

The best selling musical CDs in the Macross series?

Maybe not more popular than the original, but damn close.

Not to mention a whole lot of doujinshi

[jenius]

Power Rangers were popular... does that make it a good show?

[jenius]

When i first heard about Mac7 I went and asked everyone how I can get my hands on it and what they thought of the show. I didn't receive one positive response from about the ten people I knew who had any familiarity with anime (friends, employees at rental places, etc.) Now you may say that haters are the ones who cry the loudest and that this show is really super duper popular, but from my random sample I gotta disagree. This show was hyped up huge, carried a name that probably helped make it successful, but the majority of viewers saw it for what it was... and will never watch it again.

Edited April 5, 2005 by jenius

[Guest Bromgrev]

I see no need for opinions other than my own.

[Duke Togo]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

Far more popular? In what universe is this, Keith? I'm sorry, I must have missed the major motion picture, toyline, and other series spun off of Macross 7. Care to point them out of me?

Well, there was teh macross 7 "movie"

The OVA series

The manga spin-off

The toys and models

The video game

The best selling musical CDs in the Macross series?

Maybe not more popular than the original, but damn close.

LOL, Macross 7 movie. Completely on par with DYRL. Ah yes, the OVA about naked kids and space whales... which has been seen by a fraction of the people who have seen Plus. Toys, models, and video games? You surely are not talking about that Gameboy game, are you? Or the two crappy Bandai hunks of plastic that are supposed to pass as toys? Oooo!, and the pink Valkyrie model with the tits!

I mean, come on, lets be serious here. Your attempt was laughable.

[Radd]

I believe Keith is referring to the japanese audience when he speaks of the popularity of 7. I don't know if M7 was indeed popular in Japan or not, but it certainly seems that way based on how much has come out of it. When a series flops in it's first season, it's usually pulled, or even cut off midseason, it doesn't seem like smart business sense to pump out an entire second season, followed by an OVA, bonus episodes, a theatrical short movie, extra soundtracks, model kits (there may not have been a lot of toys, but there seems to have been a decent amount of models), ectcetera.

[JB0]

Macross 7 fans are far from in the minority, as much as it's detracters hate to acknowledge it, the show was more popular than the original series. Macross 7 fans just aren't as vocal.

Far more popular? In what universe is this, Keith? I'm sorry, I must have missed the major motion picture, toyline, and other series spun off of Macross 7. Care to point them out of me?

Well, there was teh macross 7 "movie"

The OVA series

The manga spin-off

The toys and models

The video game

The best selling musical CDs in the Macross series?

Maybe not more popular than the original, but damn close.

LOL, Macross 7 movie. Completely on par with DYRL. Ah yes, the OVA about naked kids and space whales... which has been seen by a fraction of the people who have seen Plus. Toys, models, and video games? You surely are not talking about that Gameboy game, are you? Or the two crappy Bandai hunks of plastic that are supposed to pass as toys? Oooo!, and the pink Valkyrie model with the tits!

I mean, come on, lets be serious here. Your attempt was laughable.

What exactly is WRONG with the Gameboy game?

And what does it matter anyways? The point was they cranked one out. Much like they did for the original series on the FamiCom, only with 15 years of evolution in the industry between the two.

And the toys are... well, they're no worse than the 1/55 VF-1.

While they do pale in comparison to a 1/48 VF-1, the 1/48 isn't a mass market toy. It's the Macross equivalent of Masterpiece Prime.

The Mac7 toys are INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. They don't care if it's accurate to the line art, or how much metal content it has. Just that it bears a vague resemblance to what they see on the TV, and can be transformed without asking mom for help. To that end, a big hunk of plastic is PREFERABLE to something with intricate detail, articulated hands, and a complex transformation.

[treatment]

And the toys are... well, they're no worse than the 1/55 VF-1.

While they do pale in comparison to a  1/48 VF-1, the 1/48 isn't a mass market toy.  It's the Macross equivalent of Masterpiece Prime.

The Mac7 toys are INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. They don't care if it's accurate to the line art, or how much metal content it has. Just that it bears a vague resemblance to what they see on the TV, and can be transformed without asking mom for help. To that end, a big hunk of plastic is PREFERABLE to something with intricate detail, articulated hands, and a complex transformation.

Awww, C'MON!!! You're really pushing it with this one.

Why are you trying to compare the 1/65 M7 toys to the newer and more intricate 1/48 Yammies?

Why not actually compare the M7-toys to the older 1/55 VF-1 series from the same maker Bandai?

and fwiw, the 1/65 are actually worse and quite complex than the 1/55 VF-1 in transformation for kids.

Here's an anecdote. I bought my nephews the Bandai VF-1 and the VF-17. They transform the VF-1 easily without looking at the instructions, while they had a difficult time figuring out the VF-17 transformation while looking at the instructions. And the VF-17 was easier to transform than the VF-19.

Edited April 5, 2005 by treatment

[yellowlightman]

I believe Keith is referring to the japanese audience when he speaks of the popularity of 7. I don't know if M7 was indeed popular in Japan or not, but it certainly seems that way based on how much has come out of it. When a series flops in it's first season, it's usually pulled, or even cut off midseason, it doesn't seem like smart business sense to pump out an entire second season, followed by an OVA, bonus episodes, a theatrical short movie, extra soundtracks, model kits (there may not have been a lot of toys, but there seems to have been a decent amount of models), ectcetera.

Yes, that would be the point. Regardless if Duke Togo thinks the products are good enough, the point is that they were made and that's a good indicator of quality. Again, I'm not saying Macross 7 was more popular than the original Macross, but it was certainly on par if not very close in terms of popularity.

[bandit29]

ugh here we go again...what was more popular, M7 aimed at younger fans, was M7 successful etc etc etc. This horse has been beaten to death and turned into dog food or a McDonalds hamburger....lol

We really need a new full length Macross TV series to complain about Its only been 10-11 years...

[JB0]

And the toys are... well, they're no worse than the 1/55 VF-1.

While they do pale in comparison to a  1/48 VF-1, the 1/48 isn't a mass market toy.  It's the Macross equivalent of Masterpiece Prime.

The Mac7 toys are INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. They don't care if it's accurate to the line art, or how much metal content it has. Just that it bears a vague resemblance to what they see on the TV, and can be transformed without asking mom for help. To that end, a big hunk of plastic is PREFERABLE to something with intricate detail, articulated hands, and a complex transformation.

Awww, C'MON!!! You're really pushing it with this one.

Why are you trying to compare the 1/65 M7 toys to the newer and more intricate 1/48 Yammies?

Why not actually compare the M7-toys to the older 1/55 VF-1 series from the same maker Bandai?

First line.

and fwiw, the 1/65 are actually worse and quite complex than the 1/55 VF-1 in transformation for kids. 

Here's an anecdote.  I bought my nephews the Bandai VF-1 and the VF-17. They transform the VF-1 easily without looking at the instructions, while they had a difficult time figuring out the VF-17 transformation while looking at the instructions.  And the VF-17 was easier to transform than the VF-19.

But still simpler than modern VF-1 toys.

The original 1/55 VF-1 had an elegantly simple transformation. It's one of it's best features, toy-wise.

Even compared to toys from the same period, it stands out.

And transformations've been getting more complex in the modern toys as near as I can tell.

I haven't bought a Transformer in years, but it's not obvious to me how the transformation proceeds in the new ones just from looking.

The cost of robots with moving legs and hip joints, I guess.

[Agent ONE]

HAHA... Keith. I don't know who its unbeliveably popular with, but they aren't here.

I am sure that there are some little kids out there that liked it... Probably tons of em. I mean the Teletubbies were popular for a while. I see M7 as the same exact thing.

Any child with a tendancy toward weakness, quitting when things get hard, a fear of the opposite sex, or possibly a host of other social anxiety fears would feel right at home with an episode of M7.

Lets face it, people are entertained most by things that reflect their own personality or persona...

- Kids that wear glasses stroke their poles over Harry Potter

- Kids that are pussies love M7 and the Teletubies

You get the point.

[twich]

Well, to puncture a hole in your theory Agent ONE,

I Like Harry Potter, and I dont wear glasses, in fact have better than 20/20 vision.

I like Macross 7, and I am not a pussy or wimp or childish, in fact nothing gets the old ticker pumping more than a little Good Old Fashion Ultra Violence.( I am a construction worker if you were wondering, in fact I drive a cement Mixer...10 wheels, 80000+ pounds of vehicle, work in mud and dirt and snow and cold to get the job done, Also, I like Weapons...lots of them...hardly what you would consider to be "Girly")

I understand and accept the fact that there are people who do not like Macross 7, but I just accept it and move on, no matter how much I would like the contrary to be true, there is nothing I can do to get people to like it....either you do, or dont. I dont go around insulting or calling those that do like it childish, gay, or defective because they share a different opinion than I do. Perhaps you should step back and look at what kind of impression of yourself you are giving people when you and others do what they do concerning this and many other topics that seem to generate this sort of response.

Twich

[jenius]

Lets face it, people are entertained most by things that reflect their own personality or persona...

- Kids that wear glasses stroke their poles over Harry Potter

- Kids that are pussies love M7 and the Teletubies

Let it be known that while generally I think A1 speaks pretty well of my own opinion of Mac7 I'm going to differ from him a bit here. Like I said earlier, the Power Rangers was a hugely popular show with movies and toys and video games but it completely sucked. If Mac7 was popular that has nothing to do with it potentially being any good. Yeah, it was probably aimed at the kids and the enormous buying potential they represent and so it may have been a successful business venture in Japan but that still doesn't make me think it's a good show or even worthy of the Macross name.

Now, to differ from A1, i don't think those little kids are gonna grow up to become sissies with anxiety issues. I think they're just little kids and more entertained by bright colors, electrical-guitar piloted mechs with faces, and clowny villains than they are by a plot meant for adult consumption (with emotional depth, strong characters, or a "realistic" science fiction).

[Sundown]

The US has a long story of collective psychosises. The most notorious one was the International Comunist Conspiracy.

It seems there were also a South-American Drug-Traffickers Conspiracy, a Hopping Chinese Conspiracy, a Black Unrest Conspiracy, a Wedding-Wrecker Homo Conspiracy, an America Hater Conspiracy and many else.

Err. I think the fact that the US has survived so many "collective psychoses" points clearly to the fact that the US is not a conglomeration of like minded, simple individuals as you paint. Time and time again, the US come to recognize its mistakes and move on.

Only luck or masonry saved humanity that time.

Luck or masonry seems to be on the US's side a lot. I'd argue that its the US's diversity of opinions, backgrounds, and its promotion of the public discourse of all ideas that allow the US to repeatedly recover from its mistakes. Sure, there have been nuts in government at one time or another and been able to hold sway for a moment, but this little thing we call "democracy" and the Constitution seems to yank the country back to cluefulness time and time again.

Lucky maybe. But I'd rather give credit where it's due.

I'm assuming that you're not actually an American, for you to so easily paint us all as bumbling simpletons prone to hysteria and ever under spell of propaganda. But if you actually lived here, you'd see that it isn't what you seem to believe. Different parts of the country, different demographics all have vastly different opinions... And around here at my office, it's all "Bush sucks this way" and "Bush sucks that way." They would be harsher critics of the current administration and ongoing "conspiracies" than you'd dare to be.

Very often the United States is its own worse critic, and is the first to examine its own flaws and ways of thinking in a fair manner. There are public elements within the nation that are ever asking us to own up to our failings. It's only foreign nations that have the luxury of painting the US with some broad and critical brush.

Actually, it was mirrored in Soviet Union, where government warned of a Western Powers Conspiracy to bring down Comunism.

Err. This wasn't a "psychoses" on the part of the Russians. It actually happened. Western powers were actively attempting to contain, weaken, (and possibly eliminate) communism.

Exhibit A: The Berlin Wall.

Sure, it might be argued that Western Powers were trying to take credit for something that occured without their intervention (and no right historian would argue that), but why would they attempt to unless they had a very vested interest in it in the first place? The McCarthy Era just shows how eager we all were to see it happen. Why, I even saw the recently passed Pope as being given partial credit to the Union's downfall.

One of the things humans most desire is to be told that they are good, and religious and political leaders historically has exploited it quite well. However, after hearing so many times they are good, they feel others are not as much as good as them, and at the end others are so bad that everything can be done to them without the good ones becoming bad themselves, for how can evil's worst enemy be bad himself?

I'm actually reading a book called "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, which I believe is his response to what he saw happening during the Nazi regime. Hitler was using some churches for his own ends, as they laid aside core Christian teachings and truths in eventual favor of a mildly Christian flavored concoction of beliefs that tolerated the most horrific of acts.

However, the Christian faith's true message remained just the opposite: That none are really "good" even though we'd love to think we were. That we've all rebelled against our creator, just like the next guy... criminals, prostitutes, what have you. And that our sole hope lies in the person of Jesus, who was sent from God as a demonstration of what "good" truly is, and willingly took upon Himself the judgement we deserved.

So its message remains that we're all in the same boat. And with that in view, we're to deny ourselves. To love our neighbors. Jesus went so far as to say that we should love our enemies. He wasn't very popular with people who would use religion for their own means.

In the same vein, religious leaders like Bonhoeffer were Hitler's greater threats from within as he actively plotted against his downfall, driven on by his loyalty to the true message and faith-- he was executed in a concentration camp a few days before the camp was liberated by the Allies.

I think that honestly in US the cultural conditions for "understanding" are, and not exactly decided by its people, poor.

I'd try and refrain from commenting on the irony here. But I'd fail.

-Al

Edited April 6, 2005 by Sundown

[Sundown]

I can't decide. Mac 7 is vaguely watchable and entertaining when viewed, then immediately denied as being associated with any other property bearing the Macross name.

Bit it's but fatally egregious because it is in the Macross continuity. It taints all I hold dear in Macross, and if taken with heavy seriousness as befitting canon, forces reinterpretations of the other Macross series and movies. Certain M7 fans have been forcing just this for years, except they see such retcon as the way it had always been intended.

If M7 existed as a semi-alternate potential reality as does MII, I would probably be a lot more forgiving of it. It's more entertaining than MII in its better characters and writing. MII is just a bit of pretty, shallow fluff that doesn't deliver much beyond the first viewing. I wouldn't have as severe conniptions if it were MII that were part of the Macross continuity... as dissapointed as I'd be.

But watching M7 with the mind that it's actually absolutely canon makes me pee fire.

I have mentioned on multiple occasions on MW that I am a fan of Barry Manallow.  I can see however why so many hate him, he is just a cheesball, but I like his music anyway.

All hypothetical admiration I may have had for your pectorals are now summarily revoked.

-Al

Edited April 6, 2005 by Sundown

[Duke Togo]

Macross 7 is to Macross what After MASH is to MASH.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Macross 7 is to Macross what After MASH is to MASH.

*snicker*

That was harsh dude.

[Agent ONE]

Well, to puncture a hole in your theory Agent ONE,

I Like Harry Potter, and I dont wear glasses, in fact have better than 20/20 vision.

I like Macross 7, and I am not a pussy or wimp or childish, in fact nothing gets the old ticker pumping more than a little Good Old Fashion Ultra Violence.( I am a construction worker if you were wondering, in fact I drive a cement Mixer...10 wheels, 80000+ pounds of vehicle, work in mud and dirt and snow and cold to get the job done, Also, I like Weapons...lots of them...hardly what you would consider to be "Girly")

...

AHHH! Closet case, eh!???

J/K

My only conclusion is you must have watched a different M7 than I did.

[JB0]

Lets face it, people are entertained most by things that reflect their own personality or persona...

- Kids that wear glasses stroke their poles over Harry Potter

- Kids that are pussies love M7 and the Teletubies

You get the point.

I wear glasses and I hate Harry Potter.

But I like Macross 7. Though I hate Teletubbies.

...

Maybe it's because Basara wears glasses. I always thought Max was better than Hikaru, too.

[Graham]

I've always disagreed with the idea that M7 was aimed at kids.

If anything, I think the opposite is true and it was made with a more mature audience in mind.

No, I'm not going to write a dozen paragraphs defending this view, it's just my gut feeling. That and the fact that a certain level of maturity is helpful in accepting some of the more outlandish concepts and visual designs in M7.

Graham

[pfunk]

Well, to puncture a hole in your theory Agent ONE,

I Like Harry Potter, and I dont wear glasses, in fact have better than 20/20 vision.

I like Macross 7, and I am not a pussy or wimp or childish, in fact nothing gets the old ticker pumping more than a little Good Old Fashion Ultra Violence.( I am a construction worker if you were wondering, in fact I drive a cement Mixer...10 wheels, 80000+ pounds of vehicle, work in mud and dirt and snow and cold to get the job done, Also, I like Weapons...lots of them...hardly what you would consider to be "Girly")

...

AHHH! Closet case, eh!???

J/K

My only conclusion is you must have watched a different M7 than I did.

sorry, that was funny

[Sundown]

If anything, I think the opposite is true and it was made with a more mature audience in mind.

No, I'm not going to write a dozen paragraphs defending this view, it's just my gut feeling. That and the fact that a certain level of maturity is helpful in accepting some of the more outlandish concepts and visual designs in M7.

While a higher level of maturity might a viewer see past certain aspects of M7's visual design in order to appreciate its more complex themes-- if it were actually made with this target audience in mind, then it would have offered designs that directly appealed to them.

It's just bad form to force your target audience to bear visuals that are grating to their sensibilities, as some sort of test that deems them worthy to experience the other things you have to offer. Ie: It's bad form to make a show that looks like a corny kids cartoon, inject some more mature themes, then write off your target audience for not being "mature enough" because they dared to be swayed by the fact that your show looks like a corny kids cartoon.

If M7 was made for a more mature target audience, then it's failed miserably. Its target audience would be the sliver of the population that's somewhat mature but yet remains unphased by designs most in their demographic would obviously find unappealing. It's a funny way to do things.

My hunch is that M7 is aimed squarely at young teenagers. None of the core themes of M7 are beyond a young teen's comprehension. The level of writing just happens to be decent enough to hold the attention of a more mature viewer, especially if they had been a Macross SDF fan. The outlandish designs aren't there to test the sensibilities of a mature and refined taste, but simply to sell toys, cd's, and merchandise to kids and teens. And don't forget the fan service. M7 is a commercial grab at teens and younger children, with a nod towards older fans while leaning heavily on their established loyalty. It's a little of something for everyone, except that some of these everyones have to fight through lots of stuff that obviously wasn't made with them in mind.

I'd like to think that I've matured somewhat through the years. Yet I don't recall a growing affinity for mecha with mammaries or corny alien monsters since SDF. If anything, Mac 7 makes me wince visually, precisely because of my maturing tastes. And it makes me shudder, because it treats emotional energy as a Pokemon-esque power meter and commodity.

Sure, being more mature does allow me to sit through several episodes and appreciate the things it's got going... but it also allows me to be painfully aware that M7 wasn't made for folks like me.

-Al

[yellowlightman]

Sure, being more mature does allow me to sit through several episodes and appreciate the things it's got going... but it also allows me to be painfully aware that M7 wasn't made for folks like me.

Well, obviously.

Unless you're a yound adult living in Japan, you're not in the target audience for Macross 7. Or just about any anime series, for that matter.

All you guys (not referring to you, Sundown) going on and on about how lame Macross 7 is without bothering to give any justification makes you sound like the losers who made fun of the retards in elementery school because you had no friends. Some people never change I guess.

Edited April 6, 2005 by yellowlightman

[JB0]

I'd like to think that I've matured somewhat through the years. Yet I don't recall a growing affinity for mecha with mammaries or corny alien monsters since SDF. If anything, Mac 7 makes me wince visually, precisely because of my maturing tastes.

Oddly enough, I've grown more fond of the super robot style that Mac7 uses as I've matured...

And it makes me shudder, because it treats emotional energy as a Pokemon-esque power meter and commodity.

If there was one thing I could change, that would be it.

We REALLY don't ned a DBZ-style power meter on Basara's singing.

[Duke Togo]

I've always disagreed with the idea that M7 was aimed at kids.

If anything, I think the opposite is true and it was made with a more mature audience in mind.

No, I'm not going to write a dozen paragraphs defending this view, it's just my gut feeling. That and the fact that a certain level of maturity is helpful in accepting some of the more outlandish concepts and visual designs in M7.

Graham

Obviously it was designed for a mature audiance, the leading female role was a 14 year old girl, and there was plenty of fan service with her. We all know how much Japanese men love young girls.

[yellowlightman]

Obviously it was designed for a mature audiance, the leading female role was a 14 year old girl, and there was plenty of fan service with her. We all know how much Japanese men love young girls.

Just like DYRL...

[jenius]

Was Minmei 14??? I know she was 15 in SDF Mac but I thought she was older in DYRL since she was already a popular singer. Then again, how old was Britney Spears when most old men first knew of her (and subsequently wanted to "do" her)? Maybe she still was 15 in DYRL... I thought they aged her a bit though...

[treatment]

Minmay was 17 in DYRL.

http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/l/...html#LinnMinmei

[Ido]

The characters in Macross 7 have pretty much the same age of the characters in sfd macross and M0.

I don't think its much more adressed to children that SDF macross was, just much more mecha battle super robot style cheesiness that any other macross, stupid director...