Macross II versus Macross 7

[ZenZephyr]

Can I dislike Zero? I'd like to compare an apple, to an orange, to a cherry....

Where's comparing the love triangles? I haven't read anyone else say the same thing so, IMHO, Zero seemed to push Shin into a romantic relationship too quick in order to make it fit it into a four episode series. Made me feel how I felt about episode III in StarWars to fit the first generation's story fit the next generations...

Vote goes to Nether.

The Consumer Whore

[jenius]

I always thought, that if Basara were a hot chick, the Protodevlin were better designed enemies, less recycled footage and had less episodes, the series could stand up to the original

LOL, let me paraphrase:

Mac7 would be quite good with different characters, different character design, and an altered and condensed plot!

Well, I guess it's a compliment... but not very high praise. Perhaps if they added a subplot for the adults to follow, gave Max his testicles back, let Gamlin die when he should have, deleted mechs' faces and boobs... (no, seriously, I'll stop)

Edited December 29, 2006 by jenius

[Zinjo]

... Macross II horrible plot that's just a wear adaptation of DYRL

Ah yes the tired old dismissive about Mac II....

Kinda like saying Mac 7 is total crap because it's nothing more than J-pop fluff devoid of any real perils akin to the GI Joe shlock of the 80's...

Both statements are empty generalizations for both shows....

I'll believe that whole "copy"/"adaptation" argument as soon as I get a definitive arguments to prove the statement, which to date has not yet happened...

Similar in parts yes, not an adaptation of DYRL, since it was based on DYRL and the game Macross 2036. It is by no means perfect and story threads are obviously truncated, but certainly no carbon copy or adaptation of DYRL...

Time to get a new tune to play.

[sketchley]

(...) than J-pop fluff (...)

*cough* J-rock *cough*

SDF:M/DYRL?/Flashback 2012 are the J-pop. Macross Zero is the opera.

[Rivin]

I'd definitely rather watch Macross II than Macross 7....actually, I'd also rather have someone sandpaper my genitals than watch Macross 7.

My opinion was generated from Macross Dynamite 7...the OVA and movie, which I have the misfortune of owning. I have a number of complaints.

1. It's very jarring to have gone from the serious, intellectually stimulating and beautiful Macross Plus, to "LISTEN TO MY SONG!"

2. Nutjobs flying around with giant speakers on their mechs playing guitars in the cockpit.

3. Space whales....

4. Lesbian "roofie" rape scene.

5. Macross 7 was obviously aimed at a much younger, much more vapid crowd. Apparently they were hoping to capture the same crowd that George Lucas was aiming for with Episode I.

6. Ahab the Zentraedi. C'mon, work with me here...

7. Animation that doesn't even match DYRL, let alone Macross Plus.

8. Really, really disinteresting storylines.

9. This is what happens when you take a concept (music as a means of bridging the culture gap) to an insane degree (duels between mechas using giant sonic speakers).

10. By the 150th time that idiot said "Listen to my song!" I was ready for someone to take that silly guitar and give him a six-string enema.

[Rivin]

Oh, and I actually enjoy Mari Iijima's sometimes quite soulful sounds, particularly "Cinderella", and "Tenshi no enogu" (the two songs, interestingly, that she wrote herself). I even bop my head to "Sunset Beach" and have always enjoyed "Ai, Oboeteimasu ka"....and usually I can't stand J-pop. Much rather hear her and the outstanding Sharon Apple than the screeching caterwailing of Fire Bomber (which ranks right about with the Robotech Lynn Minmei songs IMHO).

[Sweet Zombie Jesus]

I like both... they're not so bad.

Macross 7 is fun, despite so many issues. The "Fleet of the Strongest Women" episode was cool, due to the inclusion of the bad ass Quedlunn Rau's launching obsene numbers of missiles and crazy flying. And how much better are the Meltran ships than the Varauta ones? Some non Fire Bomber instrumental background music would have been good too, like SDF:M, DYRL and Macross Plus had.

Macross II would have been improved somewhat if the Marduk were replaced with the Protoculture, or the Supervision Army, and if the Macross had been where it's supposed to be, instead of rotting on a hill out of town, and had not been that Alus crap. It would have fit with the continuity better...

[Valkyrie addict]

LOL, let me paraphrase:

Mac7 would be quite good with different characters, different character design, and an altered and condensed plot!

Well, I guess it's a compliment... but not very high praise. Perhaps if they added a subplot for the adults to follow, gave Max his testicles back, let Gamlin die when he should have, deleted mechs' faces and boobs... (no, seriously, I'll stop)

hehehe!! got me there!!

[Sumdumgai]

But, M7 gave us the awesomeness that is Emilia and the rest of her sisters (Mylene can die though).

[KiriK]

never seen M7 and doubt taht i'd like it from all what i've heard.... but i am a BIG Mac II fan even though it has a lot of haters too...

i love the mecha.... Ishtar is hot..... and i thought the story was actually good....

how can people say Mac II is an replica of the DYRL plot when it clearly stands on its own..... I think it's a good sequel to the movie as it introduces a new enemy that has their own war song...

it's about finding something something different in music that Ishtar searches for as war songs are all she knows..... I loved the plot when i 1st saw it ages ago... and when i rewatch it..... it still makes great sense to me....

yea Hibiki annoys me sometimes.... but i thought it was awesome that i learned how to say "poo!" in Marduk... hahaha....

[SpacyAce2012]

6. Ahab the Zentraedi. C'mon, work with me here...

I don't believe that Graham was a Zentraedi. It is my understanding that the Zolanites are a completely different race from Humans and Zentreadi.

Judging from a snippet of the radio soap opera that always popped up in the background, I gathered that the Zolans were a race of humanoid marsupials. Also, the ears and arm hair on the males is another indicator.

As for Graham being a giant, it might be safely assumed that the Protoculture may have done some tampering here in the distant past. So, it's in the Zolanite genetic makeup. Of course, this is just a logical assumption that a veiwer may gather by watching M7 Dynamite. It's not supported by hard canon.

[jenius]

I don't believe that Graham was a Zentraedi.

Holy crap, Graham might be a Zentraedi? What about Shawn?

[ZenZephyr]

Come to think of it Mac2 is what I'd like to watch most. The English dub has a line in there that always made me want to listen to it more.

"Hey Mash, it's Hibiki on da phone."

Is that how you spell that transvestite's name?

[Sumdumgai]

I don't believe that Graham was a Zentraedi. It is my understanding that the Zolanites are a completely different race from Humans and Zentreadi.

Judging from a snippet of the radio soap opera that always popped up in the background, I gathered that the Zolans were a race of humanoid marsupials. Also, the ears and arm hair on the males is another indicator.

As for Graham being a giant, it might be safely assumed that the Protoculture may have done some tampering here in the distant past. So, it's in the Zolanite genetic makeup. Of course, this is just a logical assumption that a veiwer may gather by watching M7 Dynamite. It's not supported by hard canon.

Yeah, I was under the impression that Graham macronized himself with the macro/micronization chamber, like I recall seeing a short scene of. Zolans are definitely marsupials... Kind of makes you wonder if the babies crawl out and into a belly pouch... Kind of a disturbing thought to picture...

[Keith]

Sometime in the 2012-2047 era, while Earth was colonizing worlds, they came across Zola which had also been altered by the Protoculture. The Zolans, unlike the humans, hadn't taken to space, and if you'll notice, actually share quite a lot in common with the Mayan islanders. Apparently the U.N. Spacy declared them a colony, and set up the Zolans with technology. After Grahams wife was killed while studying the effects of singing to the Ginga Kujira, Graham went out & got himself Macronized using the U.N. Spacy's tech. The Zolans themselves were left with no such technology by the Protoculture.

Regardless of whether you like Dynamite or not, the major point to the plot, much like Zero & the "Mystery of the Ruins?" story arch of 7, was that the Protoculture were leaving behind "tests" for humanity to overcome, likely to prove their potential for succeeding the Protoculture as a race that can spread out through space & not blow everything up.

If my guess is correct, then a future Macross project will take this all to a head, and have one final bang up test, possibly including the remains of the Protoculture.

[SpacyAce2012]

Sometime in the 2012-2047 era, while Earth was colonizing worlds, they came across Zola which had also been altered by the Protoculture. The Zolans, unlike the humans, hadn't taken to space, and if you'll notice, actually share quite a lot in common with the Mayan islanders. Apparently the U.N. Spacy declared them a colony, and set up the Zolans with technology. After Grahams wife was killed while studying the effects of singing to the Ginga Kujira, Graham went out & got himself Macronized using the U.N. Spacy's tech. The Zolans themselves were left with no such technology by the Protoculture.

I'm guessing that it was long before the 2040's. Elma's mother and father had Human names, which would indicate a popular trend for such (Humans,in all likelyhood, would have been a facinating novelty to the Zolans). And they were already adults some time before M7 Dynamite.

While I agree that the Zolans weren't a space-faring race until contact with Earth,I don't believe they were completely dependent on outside sources for all of their technical knowledge. I got the impression that they were quiet advanced in sea-faring, which would require some sort of industry and scientific development (ship-building, navigation, mathmatics, astronomy, metallergy, etc). Unlike the people of Mayan, who were largely a group of primitives. What industrial technology and modern education the islanders had, were all from outside sources.

I have to disagree with the "colony" part. From watching the series, I gathered that Zola seems to operate as a sovereign entity. Their forces (from what little is seen, seems geared toward anti-piracy/poaching ops. A legacy from their maritime heritage) have their own insignia, uniforms,etc. And judging from Laiza's brief coversation with Gamlin at the end, Zola's military/paramilitary entities don't appear to answer to the Earth United Nations military. Of course, I may be wrong. These are only impressions that I get from watching the series. I have seen Zola referenced as being a "colony" in other sources, but it doesn't strike me as being such. Perhaps a "protectorate", "ally", or "member state" might be more appropriate terms.

Regardless of whether you like Dynamite or not, the major point to the plot, much like Zero & the "Mystery of the Ruins?" story arch of 7, was that the Protoculture were leaving behind "tests" for humanity to overcome, likely to prove their potential for succeeding the Protoculture as a race that can spread out through space & not blow everything up.

I don't believe that the ancient Protoculture left behind "tests" for the Human Race in particular. According to the canon timeline, Humanity and Earth were a "lost experiment". All records of both were lost in the chaos during the Stellar Republic's last years. And the research vessel/team responsible for the project were destroyed by anti-Republican forces, enroute home.

I do believe that you have a point regarding AFOS. During the time of the Protoculture's activities on Earth, civil strife, civil war, insurrections,etc. were the order of the day in the Republic. Perhaps some idealistic scientists, with a great deal of gifted foresight, saw the handwriting on the wall. Even without the Varauta accident (and the resulting rise of the Protodevlin/Supervision Army), the Republic seemed destined for ruin. So, they programmed AFOS for it's task of dealing with Humanity, if they didn't forsake warfare by the time they reached their advanced space-faring period.

But as for the old (computer/holographic?) program left behind in the ruins on Rax, and the details regarding the "Galactic Whales"? Doubtful. The automated program was merely responding to the mixed Protoculture DNA "legacy" detected in Mylene's blood, rather than looking for traces of (Earth) Human DNA (in a mixed-race individual) in particular. And while the Zolans themselves were genetically altered in the distant past, I didn't get the impression that the Whales had anything to do with the Protoculture.

If my guess is correct, then a future Macross project will take this all to a head, and have one final bang up test, possibly including the remains of the Protoculture.

This something I would like to see. More on the Protoculture, that is. However, contact with any living remenants of their race would require a major change in the timeline regarding them. The Protoculture race is presumed to have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years, judging from what's written in the canon timeline.

[Keith]

But as for the old (computer/holographic?) program left behind in the ruins on Rax, and the details regarding the "Galactic Whales"? Doubtful. The automated program was merely responding to the mixed Protoculture DNA "legacy" detected in Mylene's blood, rather than looking for traces of (Earth) Human DNA (in a mixed-race individual) in particular. And while the Zolans themselves were genetically altered in the distant past, I didn't get the impression that the Whales had anything to do with the Protoculture.

This something I would like to see. More on the Protoculture, that is. However, contact with any living remenants of their race would require a major change in the timeline regarding them. The Protoculture race is presumed to have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years, judging from what's written in the canon timeline.

I dissagree, especially after Zero. The AFOS was a very specific test left behind, and combined with whatever was keeping an eye over the ruins on Lux (more than a computer to say the least), it wasn't just Protoculture blood, but a being who's blood was specifically mixed with Zentradi, meaning that it would only respond to a race who had overcome the Protoculture's biggest mistake.

As for the Whales, I think you're forgetting why they were being hunted. Their bodies were capable of being used as comonents to spaceship engines. And of course they were beings capable of long distance fold, being tied to Zola to regenerate their energy enough to continue travelling through space. And I don't know about you, but when the AFOS first joined its head & body & began transform, it looked a lot like one of the whales to me. The whole thing smacks of Protoculture technology. I should have been more specific about what I believed to be the similaritiesin the Zolans & Mayan's however. That being their myths & art styles. The murals on Zola looked entirely similar to the Mayan's paintings & the scrolls in the Protoculture ruins.

The Protoculture themselves are believed to be extinct, nothing definative has been stated on the subject. Considering their once vast occupation of space, it's hard to believe some small faction couldn't have madei t out somewhere. Even if not, there's no reason to believe before dying out, that they couldn't have left technology behind to test the remaining life in the universe, ala 2001.

[Zinjo]

If all this speculation is indeed Kawamori's direction, I can't be the only one beginning to believe that the Protoculture deserved to be wiped out!

To actually be pompous enough to set little "traps" to "test" sentient beings throughout the universe smacks of a serious god complex that needed to be taken down. The fact it was by instruments they themselves created, only adds to the poetic justice of it all.

Now maybe that is the ultimate message SK is trying to convey in this universe, similar to Ron Moore's BSG, that "Eventually you can't run from the things you've done".

[Deigo]

LOL, let me paraphrase:

Mac7 would be quite good with different characters, different character design, and an altered and condensed plot!

Well, I guess it's a compliment... but not very high praise. Perhaps if they added a subplot for the adults to follow, gave Max his testicles back, let Gamlin die when he should have, deleted mechs' faces and boobs... (no, seriously, I'll stop)

i know that gamlin's death would make a better plot. But since he's my favourite character, I was so delighted when he came back alive in the next episode.

[sketchley]

Even without the Varauta accident (and the resulting rise of the Protodevlin/Supervision Army),

Protodevlin accident. It's only when the Protodevlin are accidentally released by a human exploration/science team on the planet Varuta, that they establish the Varuta war machine.

Otherwise, excellent post SpacyAce2012. Many good points that I agree with. Macross is not "Space: 2001" with it's black monoliths to prompt technological advancement/test humanities level of technological advancement.

Yes, AFOS/birdman was a test. But everything else? Leftovers from a fallen empire.

I just rechecked Zola on the compendium, and it only appears in the timeline (when Dynamite happens) and in some of the VFs - which are custom/lesser able versions. (For example, in the legs/engine nacelles of the VF-19 the Zolan version only has built in micro-missiles, whereas the UN Spacy version has variable weapon pallet bays covered by micro-missile equipped FAST packs!)

I don't see Macross Zero as much of a rewrite. If anything, it follows Kawamori's mentioning that Macross sequels (and prequels) don't necessarily follow continuity 100%...

[sketchley]

As for the Whales, I think you're forgetting why they were being hunted. Their bodies were capable of being used as comonents to spaceship engines. And of course they were beings capable of long distance fold, being tied to Zola to regenerate their energy enough to continue travelling through space. And I don't know about you, but when the AFOS first joined its head & body & began transform, it looked a lot like one of the whales to me.

Good point on the AFOS.

However, I must ask the question: why would the protoculture design and artificially build the galactic whales, when it has been shown that they are (more?) interested in humanoid creations (Zentraedi, humans, Zolans, Protodevlin, etc.)?

What if the original planet of the protocultures had something similar to the galactic whales coming every year, and they prompted and allowed the protocultures to develop space fold technology?

If this later rhetorical question is true, then the Zolans, or at least the space poachers, are following in the footsteps of the protocultures. Not only that, it puts a new light on Dynamite, as it starts showing a conflict between (technological) progress at the expense of nature vs. conservation of nature at the cost of (technological) progress. IMHO, that conflict is closer to the theme(s) of Macross Zero... perhaps even that of SDF:M & DYRL?, with it's complete destruction of nature due to technological progress.

Edited January 1, 2007 by sketchley

[JB0]

... whatever was keeping an eye over the ruins on Lux (more than a computer to say the least),

I see no reason it can't be a computer.

Particularly as it's not shown to have any cognitive ability(though the PC should certainly be capable fo artificial intelligence, if their computers are up to par with their biotechnology).

it wasn't just Protoculture blood, but a being who's blood was specifically mixed with Zentradi, meaning that it would only respond to a race who had overcome the Protoculture's biggest mistake.

OR! It could have been intended to be accessible by redeemed zentradi.

"Well, I guess those dang zentradi finally realized they ain't worth nothin' and settled down so we could do what we wanted with 'em..."

If all this speculation is indeed Kawamori's direction, I can't be the only one beginning to believe that the Protoculture deserved to be wiped out!

To actually be pompous enough to set little "traps" to "test" sentient beings throughout the universe smacks of a serious god complex that needed to be taken down.

Of course they have a god complex.

Let's look at the evidence...

The zentradi were an entire race of beings created explicitly as slaves, so that the PC wouldn't have to do their own dirty work... and supplied with enough firepower to sterilize entire planets.

They were altering the genome of native animals on planets to cause them to evolve into something resembling their own species... probably so they'd have slaves when they got around to colonizing the planet.

Heck, they named themselves "first culture." That's exceptionally vain for a species that never made it out of their home galaxy.

Seems like a pretty open-and-shut case to me.

[Keith]

Why make the whales? Perhaps a stepping stone in their experiments to bridge their technilogical abilities & bio-engineering technology. Perhaps the whales themselves were a model of ship (slightly more primative than the AFOS) that wound up being abandoned. The fact that they're sentient, have red blood, and embody a facet of Protoculture technology, combined with the of harboring themselves around a Protoculture influenced world just seems like too much of a coincidence.

And while it could be argued leaving "tests" for sentient life that would pop up in the universe is vein, it could also be argued that it was done in the hindsight of all the destruction the Protoculture themselves directly brought. Everyone wants their children to become something better then what they were afterall. Not that your average parent would kill their child for not...

As for the Ruins, I actually got the impression that it may have actually been more directly one of the Protoculture, either imprinted somehow on the machinery of the ruins, or a living actual remnant. Whatever it was, just seems like something more than an A.I.

[SpacyAce2012]

Protodevlin accident. It's only when the Protodevlin are accidentally released by a human exploration/science team on the planet Varuta, that they establish the Varuta war machine.

Otherwise, excellent post SpacyAce2012. Many good points that I agree with. Macross is not "Space: 2001" with it's black monoliths to prompt technological advancement/test humanities level of technological advancement.

Actually, I was referring to the incident where the "super-dimension organs" (used to tap into the energy of the "sub-universe") failed. Thus, allowing the energy based lifeforms of that universe to enter our own, and "possessing" the Evil Series bio-weapons (becoming what would be known as the Protodevlin).

The planet where this took place (which was the Protodevlin's/Supervison Army's home/base world,as well) was the same planet where they were imprisioned: Varauta.

Thanks for the compliment. I try to present my points in an informed and rational manner. The hallmarks of a good, intelligent discussion. I would consider it disrespectful to my fellow Macross fans on these boards if I didn't.

But that doesn't mean I can't get mean in a flame war with hostile Robotechies.

[SpacyAce2012]

Quote from Keith:

The Protoculture themselves are believed to be extinct, nothing definative has been stated on the subject. Considering their once vast occupation of space, it's hard to believe some small faction couldn't have madei t out somewhere.

I don't completely dismiss such a possibility. In fact, before I learned that Kawamori declared Macross II non-canon, my Macross roleplaying group used to speculate that the Marduk were remnants of the Protoculture. Or the decendants of one of the militant factions opposed to the Republic. It would explain the similarities to Zentraedi equipment and other Protoculture technologies. And their use of music as a weapon/means of control.

Quote from JBO:

They were altering the genome of native animals on planets to cause them to evolve into something resembling their own species... probably so they'd have slaves when they got around to colonizing the planet.

That is pretty much my thoughts on the reason behind such efforts, as well. But as the AFOS may demonstrate, the scientists behind these projects may have had a different agenda than the Stellar Republic's government. A covert agenda. If so, then such opposition would indicate that the Republic wasn't so "enlightened", after all. And the so-called "militant factions" were actually freedom fighters of a sort.

But then again, the AFOS may have been a "safety mechanism". After all, an advanced pacifistic species would be more easily cowed into slavery than an advanced war-like species. But I don't see how it would accomplish such a task single-handedly. As demonstrated in Macross Zero, it wasn't exactly invincible.

Just a little speculation on possibilities in the background story. But knowing Kawamori's style, the Protoculture will end up being New Age-style beings who realized their mistakes, achieved Budda-like enlightenment, and ascended to a higher plane of existence. And are guiding their former "experiments" to the "right path" in subtle ways.

Quote from Zinjo:

To actually be pompous enough to set little "traps" to "test" sentient beings throughout the universe smacks of a serious god complex that needed to be taken down. The fact it was by instruments they themselves created, only adds to the poetic justice of it all.

Indeed. But as the civil conflicts in the Republic demonstrated, there is a possibility that not all of the Protocultures followed this line of thinking.

[Zinjo]

The planet where this took place (which was the Protodevlin's/Supervison Army's home/base world,as well) was the same planet where they were imprisioned: Varauta.

Has that been actually established that Varuata was the home base of the SA or was it simply the planet the Anima Spiritia soldiers trapped the PD on?

If the former is the case, then the Mac 7 fleet would have run into the SA far before ever seeing the PD, as the army would have staked out the planet while trying to figure a way to revive their leaders.

As for Mac II, I tend to suspect the Marduk were intended to be the SA, but were given an actual name as opposed to just the SA. It was poorly executed and I'm sure most fans didn't make the connection between the two. Though much of the Marduk concepts must have been taken directly from SK's notes about the SA from SDFM as they are far too similar to be conicidental.

Using the AFOS situation as a basis, I tend to think that considering how highly complex the bio-engineered craft the AFOS was, that it was not just some tangent faction within the PC that left it there. These supposedly peaceful beings were prepared to wipe out an entire world because it didn't conform to "their" definition of peaceful.

Smacks of PETA on steroids to me....

Then there is question of why did the AFOS loose it's head to begin with? The PC were waiting for mankind to have the ability to put the two halves together so they could judge them in abstentia? Seems like a stretch to me.

If the PC were actually benevolent beings then the AFOS would have been left behind as a protection device, not the "hammer of god"...

Now to argue it was done as a galactic protection measure by a race who'd realized it's mistakes is another stretch. At the time of the genetic alterations of humanity the PC were in a state of civil war with the SA. Hardly a reason to leave a device behind for the expressed purpose of destroying the "crop" as it were, if it grew wild.

It just seems a bit "porous" to me, but then again SK doesn't believe in being locked into his own continuity, so it tracks from a production point of view, I guess.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

If the former is the case, then the Mac 7 fleet would have run into the SA far before ever seeing the PD, as the army would have staked out the planet while trying to figure a way to revive their leaders.

Not necessarily. How long has the war between Zentraedi and the Supervision army been? It's possible that the Supervision Army did attempt to revive them, possibly wiping out the remaining Protocultures in the process. However, sooner or later the Zentraedi would've erradicated any Supervision Army forces nearby, as the revival of the Protodevlin was too much of a loss of military power on their side. This was either hinted at, or directly stated in DYRL?, that they either attempt to take new war technology, or destroy it, so that none of their rivals can.

There also wasn't that many of the Supervision Army left - a huge amount of their forces would have had to be acting defensively to protect the Protodevlyn, and getting destroyed in the process.

It's very possible that the Protoculture forces that attacked the Supervision Army fleet could have been composed entirely of Protoculture ships. After defeating the Supervision Army defensive fleet(s), and imprisoning the Protodevlyn, it's very possible that the Zentraedi swept through the system, and destroyed everyone and anything - scortched earth tactics that they seem to love, et al.

[SpacyAce2012]

Has that been actually established that Varuata was the home base of the SA or was it simply the planet the Anima Spiritia soldiers trapped the PD on?

Here is the relevent link to the Compendium:

Macross Compendium

The entries for the years PC 2865,2868,and 2871 gives the details

As for Mac II, I tend to suspect the Marduk were intended to be the SA, but were given an actual name as opposed to just the SA. It was poorly executed and I'm sure most fans didn't make the connection between the two. Though much of the Marduk concepts must have been taken directly from SK's notes about the SA from SDFM as they are far too similar to be conicidental.

Or at least one (possible) remaining element of it. The Babylonian deity names (and Sumerian mythological terms) could be explained away as being Protoculture terms (from their language) that were "imprinted" on the "racial memory" of Humanity. Around the time of the Protocultures' activities on Earth, Humans were already fairly well evolved (Java Man, Peking Man, Homo Erectus(sp),etc. I don't remember which exact stages existed 500,000 years ago). However, The Protoculture Intervention Theory (judging from Professor Turner's comments in Macross Zero), implied that Humanity's evolution accelerated at some point from then. That's recent enough for some sort of "racial memory" theory to have at least a little validity.

I always figured that Ingues was a bio-computer similar to Gorg Bodolzaa/ Lap'lamis Moruk (as portrayed in DYRL). At so me point over 500 centuries, he became insane and began to think of himself as a god emperor. There was limitless potential to explore in this future Macross setting, in regards to the Protoculture (the Marduk angle). But Kawamori has fixed it where it will never happen.

Then there is question of why did the AFOS loose it's head to begin with? The PC were waiting for mankind to have the ability to put the two halves together so they could judge them in abstentia? Seems like a stretch to me.

As for the head unit being removed, it was possibly for the same reason you remove a car battery, when storing an automobile for a long period of time. The head was probably part of the power system (as well as a computer "hard drive/memory" unit, for want of a better term). I know it's far-fetched. But just one of many possibilities.

Edited January 1, 2007 by SpacyAce2012

[Keith]

Actually, I think the Mayan legends explain why the head of the AFOS was removed. After the bit about the fish man having his fins cut off and developing legs, then eventually coming to an island and sobbing because he was alone, the legend says this (going by the ANBU digisub).

"Then the Bird Human came down and cut his own head off. The blood that poored from his neck became the first female, Rooy Waka. Rooy Kanu & Roy Waka joined together and gave birth to many children. And after giving birth to their children, Rooy Waka left and returned home to the stars which was far across the ocean.

Rooy Kanu My dear wife, please come back to me. The Bird Human replied and said, My dear husband Rooy Kanu, the day I come back again will be when the destiny of the stars crumble. It is the day when the song of destruction will echo into the world"

What the gist of this means to me is that the AFOS was always meant to be a safety measure should humanity turn out too warlike. If you look at the timeline of events surrounding the time the Protoculture visited Earth, you can see a jump in the Protoculture conflict & weapons technology (developing the Evil & such), and it could be that the faction that visited Earth were already expecting the worst to come from their civil war. The fact that that particular group had direct combat with other Protoculture & were opposed to the Stellar republic says a lot, as the implication has always been that all conflicts were handled by the Zentradi. If that fundamental base was already breaking down, things must have been bad.

Rooy Waka is clearly implied to be a member of the Protoculture, and the original pilot of the AFOS. Her direct family line goes all the way down to Sara & Mao, who are from birth raised as Shamen, and unknowingly trained in how to pilot the AFOS in the doomsday judgement scenario. Considering Sara & Mao were in contact with the head & body at all times, it s indeed more likely that the seperation was done for conservation pruposes, or likely to prevent an accidental activation. In bringing the head & body together, there would have to be direct intent to use the AFOS.

On to the Marduk thing. I thought the one well spelled-out thing about the Marduk was how they came into being. The Marduk were a species much like those of humans who came across the Zentradi in a similar scenario. Just like humans they used "culture" to overcome them, but in their scenario, they enslaved the Zentradi with it instead of integrading with them, and in the process stole their technology & turned the Zentradi into their own slave military. Ingus wasn't a bio-computer like Bodolzaa & Laplamiz, but instead was a Marduk Citizen who somehow found a way to integrate himself into one of the mobile fortresses in the natural pilots place. You'll note he himself is never shown to be giant.

[Zinjo]

Here is the relevent link to the Compendium:

Macross Compendium

The entries for the years PC 2865,2868,and 2871 gives the details

That only establishes that the EVIL series were initially created there and ironically imprisoned there, not that the SA army was based there. It also leaves the open question as to where the ruins are of the initial PC development facility on the planet??

There is every reason to believe that the SA were still using the mind control technology provided to them by their PD overlords to control and ultimately draft new soldiers into their ranks. Thus if they were aware of the whereabouts of their "lords" they would have made every effort to free them and would have been persistent in this task. Yet in M7 we see neither Zents or SA in the Varuata system, which implies the the location was not widely known to either side.

I always figured that Ingues was a bio-computer similar to Gorg Bodolzaa/ Lap'lamis Moruk (as portrayed in DYRL). At so me point over 500 centuries, he became insane and began to think of himself as a god emperor. There was limitless potential to explore in this future Macross setting, in regards to the Protoculture (the Marduk angle). But Kawamori has fixed it where it will never happen.

Not necesarily. SK doesn't own Macross he only created it and in no series to date has he ever completely fleshed out the modern Supervision Army.

Thus we tend to "assume" they are some weak defensive force, yet in SDFM we are told they are a very active enemy, conducting campaigns all over the galaxy with their arch enemies the Zentreadi Armadas.

I tend to believe that is why SK has never directly commented on Mac II, always claiming to have never seen it (which I seriously doubt is true). Even with the Marduk closely resembling the ancient SA, he never at any point suddenly changed their history. We have to remember many of the staff on Mac II worked on the original SDFM, so that influence was passed on to the new show, including all the back story written for the original series.

It also may be the reason why he hasn't written a SA Macross story, as it would look too similar to Mac II in terms of what the SA is composed of, something I'm sure his pride would not permit him to allow.

[Keith]

Again, actually "watch" Macross II. The Marduk share very little in common with the SA at all, and are far more akin to a warped Earth. Regarding Varuta, considering the Supervision Army were being regularly hunted down by the Zentradi (and to the contrary of what you believe, I got the impression that they were dying out, not flourishing across the galaxy), it wouldn't make sense for them to draw attention to Varuta, as all that would bring is a bigass fleet (like Bodolza's) to take out the planet. It would make far more sence for the SA to stay as far away from Varuta as possible, make some attempt at gathering enough Spiritia to awaken the PD, then returning.

[SpacyAce2012]

Again, actually "watch" Macross II. The Marduk share very little in common with the SA at all, and are far more akin to a warped Earth. Regarding Varuta, considering the Supervision Army were being regularly hunted down by the Zentradi (and to the contrary of what you believe, I got the impression that they were dying out, not flourishing across the galaxy), it wouldn't make sense for them to draw attention to Varuta, as all that would bring is a bigass fleet (like Bodolza's) to take out the planet. It would make far more sence for the SA to stay as far away from Varuta as possible, make some attempt at gathering enough Spiritia to awaken the PD, then returning.

Indeed. Watching the original series, it seems that the Zentraedi had the Supervision Army on the defensive (on the run), as of 2009 (Earth Calander). In fact, the Vrlitwhai Fleet was on a recon mission to investigate probable SA activity in Earth's general area of the galaxy, which was thought to have been mopped up decades prior.

But judging by what was pointed out in the series, they were still far from total defeat. They were still a very real threat. Not flourishing by any means (the Zents were in the same boat). But far from being on the edge of extinction.

As for the Marduk having little in common with the SA, there really isn't enough info on the Supervision Army to say with 100% certainty. But there are enough commonalities (with what is known about the SA) where such a theory cannot be completely dismissed. A twisted evolution of a portion of the SA, perhaps. There is no telling what could've happened, without the control of the Protodevlin, over the centuries. Independent "sub-factions", within the Supervision Army, would make for good plot material in future stories.

However, I personally feel that they were a twisted remnant of another faction within the Protoculture. But I feel that there would be room for more exploration of a SA story angle.

I agree that the Supervision Army would do their damnedest to keep the Zentraedi military from discovering Varauta. Discovering the means to revive them could turn the war around in their favor. Allowing their ancient enemies to discover this "ace in the hole" would be a major strategic disaster.

But knowing the Zentraedi philosophy of "superior firepower solves everything", such an attack may very well have revived the Protodevlin by accident. With song being feared by the Zents as "Protoculture contamination", and the secrets of Anima Spiritia lost in the mists of time, Zentraedi defeat would almost be certain.

[jigahus]

Just finished watching the entire M7 series in order to give it a try.

What I like:

Some of the songs (not all)

The mecha

What I didn't like:

Basara and his supposed commitment to singing over battle. Some people will say his dedication to peaceful resolution is commendable but I think it's dumb as his stubborness is fatal. All the cannon fodder VF-11 dies around him as he sings. His singlemindedness(sp?) reminds me of G Dub and Eye-Rack.

Stupid stupid Mylene.

Some of the bad songs being repeated over and over again.

Quantifying the mystic sound energy. This amounted to when Star Wars said the force is a bunch of midichlorines...totally killed it for me.

I voted for/against M7.

[jenius]

I voted for/against M7.

Honestly though, what about Gubaba? Gubaba causes me some internal conflict. At some points, I think Gubaba is excellent comic relief. Clearly cute and childish, downright outlandish at times, but for some reason I didn't really mind. Okay, that episode where Gubaba got lost on the planet was too much but otherwise I think, as much as I dislike myself for doing so, I actually liked Gubaba.

[eight_car]

This poll should be redone with Mac Zero added to it.

If it was there I would've voted for that instead of the neither option!