Macross II versus Macross 7

[Phyrox]

I don't see how anyone can hate MII...it is innocuous. It isn't great, but it isn't terrible. It's so-so.

M7 on the other hand is really bad. It certainly has its defenders, but theirs is an uphill battle. The designs are poor, the story is anything but tight, it demands more suspension of disbelieve, and has some grating characters.

I don't really like MII, but I can watch it. I can't say that about M7.

[macplus]

Macross 2 is not that bad, I enjoyed quite a bit, specially since it was the first macross sequel I saw, I agree that it's not great but it's superior to that POS Macross 7 is, degrading characters from the original series to worthless idiots is not fun at all and creating what could be the worst enemies ever made with stupid mecha and fruity characters is horrible, even worse including the word "Macross" in a series that is so bad and such a fagot fest is an insult, M7 should have been a 6 ep ova and a soap opera in the macross universe. It didn't contribute in anything positive, what a POS . A1 nailed perfectly with his post.

[macplus]

I forgot to post a little side note to all.

I´m not a M7 lover but I´ll have to say , if anyone wants to experience Macross 7 with the Full , authentic , 100% Macross flavour , in other words how Macross 7 ( and II for the sake of it ) SHOULD have been made in the first place ,then you´ve gotta read Macross 7 TRASH manga

It´s Classic Studio Nue storytelling , great drama , great characters , awesome read.

Seriously , had the producers made Trash the original Sequel and not Seven then we wouldn´t even have this discussions today. I would compare it side to side with Macross Plus kinda plot. Although it does not feature many valk action in it ( they should´ve made a sequel damn it) it´s worth the time , much more so than Seven or II .

IMO it the perfect sequel for M7 haters , it has all the good things of the original macross ( love triangle , great characters , conspiration theory , zentrady conflict ,no music though ) and no Clown-faced valks , no J-pop , no crappy animationand best of all : no annoying Basara

totally agree with you on this. Trash is a great manga, although if they animated it instead of seven I guess we wouldn't have a very different opinion than the one we have with M7... however it sure is better... 'common, Macross was always about the battles and the conflict and the almost imposible chances to survive, not a pussy fest galore of stupid characters, mecha, enemies etc... M7 is closer to that stupid movie "Spice World" than to SDF:M

[Jemstone]

Macross II - no Kawamori = not Macross

Altho it did have nice music. I ony saw 10 minutes of it and saw enough (Hibiki or whatever is potentially more annoying than Basara) but I do have a music CD.

[Baseley09]

common, Macross was always about the battles and the conflict and the almost imposible chances to survive

No it's not.

It's about music being the overiding key to life.

Macross 7 is the epitome of this ethos.

[yellowlightman]

Kind of ironic how many people hate on Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved with it, yet much of those same people dislike macross 7 and/or Macross Zero. Kawamori obviously isn't flawless...

[Ido]

I will go for Macross II, recycled movie/series story at bad IMHO At robotech level. I don't even get way they didn't directely a Movie, it works so bad as an OAV.

I agree that the macross7 animation is really bad and silly, too recycled frames, stupid enemies and ugly and semplicistic designs. I don't really get why it should teach to be weak and I disagree about Max and Miria. I have still to watch the last 9 episodes but I prefer It to M2.

[MGREXX]

In comparison Macross II didn´t contribute in any way at all , not even by selling J-pop CDs or merchandise. It certainly wasn´t a best seller.

M2 did give us the VF-2SS design. Now, that is one sexy valk.

[Radd]

Macross II was pretty generic and bland in my opinion, and remember kids that's all it is, an opinion. However, the very nature of this thread asks our opinions.

I liked it as a kid who was just rediscovering Macross and in need of more than Robotech. Back then I loved the slimmed down, sleeker looking Valkyries, and the beefier looking, sharp edged destroids. However, as I've grown older, my distaste for organic, non-symetrical looking machines has completely dissapeared. Now I just see the mecha from Macross II as generic looking revisions of the original mecha. Bigger guns and more of them, but not much originality. Give me the VA-3, or the VF-17 over those any day. I'm not a fan of the Sound Force designs, but there's so much more to the series. I really dig the Jamming Bird VF-11.

Storywise, Macross II looks like they took the plot outline from DYRL?, changed some characters, altered some situations, and blam, there's your new story. The characters are pretty typical, and very bland at what they do. Macross 7, on the other hand, offers an interesting and varied cast, with some of the best character developement that I've seen in anime.

I do have to disagree with AgentOne's statement that M7 tells kids to take the easy way out. It has always been easier to take the other guy out than to try and understand their position, especially when they're not keen on trying to understand yours. That might not be your ideology of choice, but calling it the "easy way out" just isn't true. It's always been easier to simply label "the other side", forget that they're people with motivations much the same as your own, and rather than settle the problem use force to make certain you at least get your way.

Of course, sometimes the simplest solution really is the best solution.

As for what Macross has always been about? Well, some people seem to think it has always been about the space battles, the mecha, and dramatically winning against the odds. Others seem to think it has always been about the human spirit, understanding your enemies and making them your allies. Others think that Macross has always been about the music. I think the reason SDF and DYRL? worked so well is that the story blended all of these aspects. I mean, the Macross would have been taken out immeadiately if they'd just laid down their weapons and tried to win the Zentradie over with hugs, but on the other hand they'd never have survived if their culture hadn't made many Zentradie soldiers interested in human life, eventually so much that Britai and his fleet sided with the Macross against Bodolza.

[Graham]

Actually, I don't know why so many people dislike Macross 7.

This attitude of "I haven't watched Macross 7 and I'm not going to watch it beacuse member XYZ say it's bad...blah....blah...blah" really irks me. Form your own opinion guys! Try it first before you make a judgement based soley on other's opinions.

I accept that some of you have seen the whole series and didn't like it. Fair enough. However, some people have only seen a couple of episodes, but seem to be stuck on a couple of issues and unable to move past them. Most common of all the 'Valks with faces' issue.

I first started watching Macross 7, what over 10 years ago. Yes, the Valks with faces annoyed me at first as well. I felt betrayed by kawamori for sullying the classic VF design.

But then I realised it's only the Sound Force Valks that have faces. They are not military valks. The are customised civilian valks used by a rock/pop band. Of course they will look different. Musicians are eccentric. Look at Glam Rock bands. Think of the Sound Force Valks as Glam Rock Valks if you like, designed to be easily identifiable and different from the military valks.

If you are a fan of military Valks, there are plenty of reasons to watch M7. There are lots of cool looking military Valks in Macross 7, such as the VF-17S, VF-17D, VF-22S, VF-11C, VF-11D, VF-11C Full Armored. VF-19S and VF-19F. A lot of the Varuta mecha looks very cool and menacing IMO as well.

A1, Max wears an officers dress uniform with a cloak for a lot of the show.....so what? he's still Max, he's still cool. He commands the Battle 7 and kicks ass at the end of the series in a VF-22S. He has all the Bridge Bunnies after him as well. Personally I think the military uniform looks fine, certainly better than what HG had Max wearing in Sentinels. I don't recall seeing Max wearing a dress in M7. Max also dresses pretty smartly when in civilian clothes.

Millia, great character. Mayor of City 7 and kicks ass in her classic VF-1J, a VF-17S and a VF-22S. Another reason to watch M7.

M7 has Mylene, one, one of the cutest anime girls ever IMO.

Gamlin my favorite character. I always think of him as the star of the show, not Basara.

Yes, Basara can be annoying. But you have to admire his uncompromising pursuit of his ideals.

M7 has a great intro and great endings IMO.

I love Fire Bomber's songs, have all the CDs. It's pretty catchy music.

I think I'm one of the few people that thinks M7 is too short. They should have had more episodes!

I actually prefer M7 to the SDFM TV series.

I disagree that the first 10 eps of M7 are too slow. I think lots happens and there are a couple of real classic eps in the first 10 eps. Ep # 7 is one of my all time favs. Mylene in a bikini and Gamlin kicking ass in a borrowed VF-11C.

Graham

[ComicKaze]

I HATE Basara. There is no other character that so completely encompasses "hippie with no real sense of reality or moral comprehension beyond his own selfish vanity clouded by self-disillusionment"

The men and women of Macross 7's military put their lives on the line to protect the citizens of City 7.

Here comes this punk recklessly flying into the midst of battle, endangering fellow pilots with total disregard for their well-being, safety, and whatever they were trying to accomplish.

Instead, while the pilots of Macross 7 are dying horrific deaths around him, and explosions fill space with death, he zips around not protecting those pilots but rather singing his head off, vainly believe that everybody will like his music.

What an intergalactic jackass.

If they had written Macross 7 to show that he actually had concern and care for his fellow pilots, and that cultureshock did have the immediate effect of saving lives, he could have been a sympathetic hero. But no, he's always an arrogant snob, blasting into space and singing his jolly head off.

Edited March 31, 2005 by ComicKaze

[Duke Togo]

Do you have any idea how many times I've done this "definitive poll"? The answer is the same every time, no mater what options you put in it... as long as Macross 7 is one of them, it is the least liked Macross series. You think these numbers look bad for 7, put it up against Plus, and watch 7 vanish in the rear view mirror.

[Gui]

Actually, I prefer M7 to M+ by far: this last one has much simpler story and thoughts than the other IMO

But whatever...

I voted 'neither' but I'm not a Macross whore and I will not buy anything Macross, I just think Ishtar's hot and Gubaba ownz!

[kensei]

3. STUPID DESIGNS, MACHINES WITH BOOBS AND FACES

The designs are so retarded I could scream. I mean seriously, the teenage girl gets a pink fighter plane with boobs…Some of the other fighters have actual faces… What the fu(k… If this show were called “Fruits in Space” or something, I guess I could handle this, but its called Macross… A show that gets affiliated with DYRL, and the machines with faces and boobs have no place next to a work of art like DYRL.

While I do agree with you over the Sound Force Vfs, I have to say that M7 boasts some of the finest mecha in Macross as a whole, like the VF-14/17/19 and 22.

[Ido]

I think I'm one of the few people that thinks M7 is too short. They should have had more episodes!

IMHO that they just had to do less repetitive episodes just for recycling the stock footage and go farther in the story.

Custom civilian valkyrie are okay but a little of fantasy isn't bad, have kawamori drawn them in 10 minutes?(if it was him)

vf-19C WOW a red vf-19 with face! I'm amazed! Kawamori is a transformers fan?

Vf-17C Stunning! A green double seater vf-17 with an ugly head! Great!

Vf-11C Wow a girl that pilot a pink female looking robot, how much time have take to think this?

At lest give us cool color schemes and custom features, the vf-11D JB design is far better that any SF valks.

[Lightning]

Actually, I don't know why so many people dislike Macross 7.

This attitude of "I haven't watched Macross 7 and I'm not going to watch it beacuse member XYZ say it's bad...blah....blah...blah" really irks me. Form your own opinion guys! Try it first before you make a judgement based soley on other's opinions.

I accept that some of you have seen the whole series and didn't like it. Fair enough. However, some people have only seen a couple of episodes, but seem to be stuck on a couple of issues and unable to move past them. Most common of all the 'Valks with faces' issue.

I first started watching Macross 7, what over 10 years ago. Yes, the Valks with faces annoyed me at first as well. I felt betrayed by kawamori for sullying the classic VF design.

But then I realised it's only the Sound Force Valks that have faces. They are not military valks. The are customised civilian valks used by a rock/pop band. Of course they will look different. Musicians are eccentric. Look at Glam Rock bands. Think of the Sound Force Valks as Glam Rock Valks if you like, designed to be easily identifiable and different from the military valks.

If you are a fan of military Valks, there are plenty of reasons to watch M7. There are lots of cool looking military Valks in Macross 7, such as the VF-17S, VF-17D, VF-22S, VF-11C, VF-11D, VF-11C Full Armored. VF-19S and VF-19F. A lot of the Varuta mecha looks very cool and menacing IMO as well.

A1, Max wears an officers dress uniform with a cloak for a lot of the show.....so what? he's still Max, he's still cool. He commands the Battle 7 and kicks ass at the end of the series in a VF-22S. He has all the Bridge Bunnies after him as well. Personally I think the military uniform looks fine, certainly better than what HG had Max wearing in Sentinels. I don't recall seeing Max wearing a dress in M7. Max also dresses pretty smartly when in civilian clothes.

Millia, great character. Mayor of City 7 and kicks ass in her classic VF-1J, a VF-17S and a VF-22S. Another reason to watch M7.

M7 has Mylene, one, one of the cutest anime girls ever IMO.

Gamlin my favorite character. I always think of him as the star of the show, not Basara.

Yes, Basara can be annoying. But you have to admire his uncompromising pursuit of his ideals.

M7 has a great intro and great endings IMO.

I love Fire Bomber's songs, have all the CDs. It's pretty catchy music.

I think I'm one of the few people that thinks M7 is too short. They should have had more episodes!

I actually prefer M7 to the SDFM TV series.

I disagree that the first 10 eps of M7 are too slow. I think lots happens and there are a couple of real classic eps in the first 10 eps. Ep # 7 is one of my all time favs. Mylene in a bikini and Gamlin kicking ass in a borrowed VF-11C.

Graham

perfect post! (....just wish Mylene was older than 14/15, they should've made her 17/18!)

another thing I'd like to add, her car was cool!

[Mr March]

copy and paste, copy and paste...

The question itself implies we are to impart some significant end to the contraversy that has become part of this board. As a member here at MW who typically never engages in the Macross 7 debate, I can offer very little of a definitive conclusion. I can offer an opinion and an intelligent evaluation.

I've seen the first dozen episodes of Macross 7 and all four episodes of Macross 7 Dynamite. Having seen everything else Macross, I invest no effort to watch any more Macross 7 or related spin-offs for various reasons, all of which can be reduced to one word that describes Macross 7 in my eyes; forgettable.

I tend to view art (Macross 7 is art, despite the controversy) in terms of its value in either one of two categories:

Art that entertains relative to the state of the medium

Art that contributes to the expansion and exploration of the medium to which it belongs

Everything I watch can be measured by the success achieved in those two categories. It's a simple system that allows me to enjoy something silly, yet highly entertaining or enjoy other works more provocative and existential.

Macross 7 is a work which offers insignificant value to me relative to the genre, the medium, or other works of entertainment or art. As such, Macross 7 becomes banal and is easily dismissed in favour of much more promising works that are more deserving of time and attention by the critical eye. Examining Macross 7 in great detail may ease the minds of those defending their adoration for the series, but the truth is Macross 7 is undeserving of such scrutiny and the vehemence of fans does little to persuade non-fans of its worth. As a piece of entertainment or art, Macross 7 succeeds only in as much as it can entice and maintain the interest of the viewer. As a viewer, I remain uninspired by Macross 7 and I'm unimpressed by what little it has to offer me or my love for entertainment and art.

[Final Vegeta]

Macross II to me was not only a reharsh but also bland. I was disgusted by it in the same way of Rahxephon, which is a bland reharsh of a bland anime.

I think Macross 7 TRASH started good but then it got lost. The main problem of M7T is that its story is based on a fictitious sport whose rules are sillier than that of Quidditch. Fortunately Harry Potter had more than a sport designed around the protagonist, the same doesn't exactly applies to M7T.

I do have to disagree with AgentOne's statement that M7 tells kids to take the easy way out. It has always been easier to take the other guy out than to try and understand their position, especially when they're not keen on trying to understand yours.

I think it will be interesting to try to draw a psychological profile of the guy who hates Macross 7. Has it to do with nationality, with politic or sexual orientations?

I think that the attitude of an American may be different from that of an European, since US never stopped waging wars, so the use of propaganda never stopped even after WWII (that is to say war propaganda stopped, while the invasion of pop stars started).

"[Propaganda] must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect... The art of propaganda lies in understanding the emotional ideas of the great masses and finding, through a psychologically correct form, the way to the attention and thence to the heart of the broad masses."

-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 180

"[Propaganda] does not have multiple shadings; it has a positive and a negative; love or hate, right or wrong, truth or lie, never half this way and half that way…"

-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 183

"[This is the] very first condition which has to be fulfilled in every kind of propaganda: a systematically one-sided attitude towards every problem that has to be dealt with…"

-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 182

The black or white emotional attitude is created by extensive use of propaganda, it's not the expression of a rational human. It corrupts the mind and prevents from seeing how the things really are.

One of the things humans most desire is to be told that they are good, and religious and political leaders historically has exploited it quite well. However, after hearing so many times they are good, they feel others are not as much as good as them, and at the end others are so bad that everything can be done to them without the good ones becoming bad themselves, for how can evil's worst enemy be bad himself? Like said in "The Carpet People", every people call themselves "the true humans" (and what about other humans?).

I think that honestly in US the cultural conditions for "understanding" are, and not exactly decided by its people, poor. The US has a long story of collective psychosises. The most notorious one was the International Comunist Conspiracy. Actually, it was mirrored in Soviet Union, where government warned of a Western Powers Conspiracy to bring down Comunism. Only luck or masonry saved humanity that time. It seems there were also a South-American Drug-Traffickers Conspiracy, a Hopping Chinese Conspiracy, a Black Unrest Conspiracy, a Wedding-Wrecker Homo Conspiracy, an America Hater Conspiracy and many else. Maybe one day a state will be invaded just because its laws allow baby-killing abortion, euthanasia and marijuana smoking (well, if someone starts to make a biodiesel out of marijuana and alcohol a war is not really that unthinkable. Wars for oil are also wars for oil only). I am obviously exagerating, but given its prison population one could think US citizens are not exactly jars of love themselves.

Someone in the US once acknowledged that US had most of world resources, and this inequality (at the expense of lot of people) could cause envy and rage abroad, so they created the United States Information Agency. Its goal was "to influence attitudes and opinions of foreign public in a way to support US politics... and to describe America and its objectives and American politics to peoples in other nations in a way to generate comprehension, respect and, when it could be done, identification with their own legitimate aspirations... and to demonstrate and document to the world the plans of those who threat our safety an try to destroy freedom".

With Operation Mockingbird CIA substituted press so that key foreign countries received favourable image of US. A giant operation of PR for what is in fact a giant corporation. Actually, this was useful to plant fake stories even inside the US (yes, despite the laws). A lot of cultural products was exported. Books, movies and music of every genre. Even stars were often sent abroad. Shirley Temple offered an image of grace and innocence, she was sent in African countries. It seems Italy was easily overcome by USIA and American stars. Italians, "a people with strong intellectual limits" (so it's written), never suspected to be manipulated.

(well, that's harsh. We were a second homeland for Japanese anime, it's not that hard to culturally invade Italians. The Italians themselves were invaded several times by all kinds of people: Greeks, Gauls, Barbars, Turks, Vikings, Austrians... we were a mixed race from the beginning. I must admit stupid TV shows have done a lot of damage to Italians, but so did DeNiro and his roles of mafia man, ex-mafia man or pseudo-mafia man)

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

(From the country that researched a "dirty gay bomb" I wouldn't expect so much bias against Macross 7)

Of course, sometimes the simplest solution really is the best solution.

My experience tell me that there isn't any better solution than the Truth itself. This comes from the understanding of the secrets rules of war, like:

In a war wins who kill the most, yet after the war only the loser has done a massacre. (British Ministery of Propaganda invented a lot of atrocity stories done by Germans during WWI, like the human soap. American intellectuals were naive and swallow them. In WWII it was human soap again: the essence of propaganda is plagiarism)

Grant power to a man to do something and he will keep the power and cut himself some slack. (if he really did what he was supposed to, he would have to give power back)

Peoples will oppose war, but they can bear a quick victory or two

Always present yourself as a victim of an attack ("turnspeak", supposed to be invented by Hitler)

A state may work like an organism, but at the end it is just private property like many else. There are those who own it, known as bankers, those who behave like they owned it, known as leaders, and those who are supposed to do anything to prevent someone not in the first two categories (including themselves) from steal it, known as people (how money works would be a good story)

When something bad happens, check what was doing your leader (I cannot stress this one enough)

And such. Something which is rarely if not at all seen in anime.

FV

[Agent ONE]

...

A1, Max wears an officers dress uniform with a cloak for a lot of the show.....so what? he's still Max, he's still cool. He commands the Battle 7 and kicks ass at the end of the series in a VF-22S. He has all the Bridge Bunnies after him as well.

...

Of course they are after him... They want to borrow that dress.

I even think the Sentinels uniform was better. I mean I SH!T on Robotech but its better than M7, in every way. M7 ruined everything.

[jenius]

The post above A1's is big and has lots of words but what exactly is the argument. Is Macross 7 a dirty gay bomb? I got lost...

Edited March 31, 2005 by jenius

[Agent ONE]

The post above A1's is big and has lots of words but what exactly is the argument. Is Macross 7 a dirty gay bomb? I got lost...

My argument is in the 8th post of this thread.

Here it is again:

I HATE Macross7 enough to actually murder someone over it.

My reasons:

1. ENCOURAGING WEAKNESS IN CHILDREN

The trend since we were kids has been one of featuring heroes (if I must call them that) who are just worthless weaklings who promote taking the easy way out… M7 is one of the worst on this issue. Plot-line is unrealistic and peace and dancing while holding hands is ALWAYS the way things end, which is teaching a lesson of fantasy, NOT reality… No one is ever confrontational, there is no real problem solving, and everything is a compromise, as much as we would like to believe that is a real reflection on life, it isn’t… Nothing in life is a compromise; there are those who take, and those who get ripped off, that’s life.

2. TARGETED AT LITTLE KIDS

I have had many arguments with MW members on this point, but it is pretty obvious that M7 wasn’t made for us old Macross fans… In fact quite the opposite, most of the older guys around here are enraged by M7… No, M7 was made for a younger generation, it was made to bring a new Macross fans in, but if it did or not, it managed to make me and others like me embarrassed to be Macross fans.

3. STUPID DESIGNS, MACHINES WITH BOOBS AND FACES

The designs are so retarded I could scream.  I mean seriously, the teenage girl gets a pink fighter plane with boobs…Some of the other fighters have actual faces… What the fu(k…  If this show were called “Fruits in Space” or something, I guess I could handle this, but its called Macross… A show that gets affiliated with DYRL, and the machines with faces and boobs have no place next to a work of art like DYRL.

4. STUPID DESIGNS, CLOTHING, NAMES, AND COLOR CHOICES

They took the bad ass of bad asses.. Max, and they made him wear a dress.  So unbelievably lame.  They made the main squadron of the show, whose job was to dance and sing in space in a RAINBOW or colors… They named a squadron “Pink Pecker.”  This one makes me want to just rip M7 fan’s teeth out with a rusty pair of pliers.  God I swear Kawamori hates old school Macross fans. 

5. REDICULOUS ENEMIES

The ‘bad guys’ in this show were just clowns.  Totally stupid dialogue, with characters that looked like some kind of cross-dressing costume pride parade winners.  I mean there is absolutely nothing to fear about these guys, they are laughable 100% of the time.  Combined with their lame appearance and lame dialogue, their mission is to suck song energy from humans… How sinister.

I actually don't view M7 as something that is "gay" because I feel that is an insult to gay people.

[Zentrandude]

Think a1 is still hoping for anime that show nothing but people lifting weights and have arnold show up from time to time and crush red tape with strong leadership.

[azrael]

This attitude of "I haven't watched Macross 7 and I'm not going to watch it beacuse member XYZ say it's bad...blah....blah...blah" really irks me. Form your own opinion guys! Try it first before you make a judgement based soley on other's opinions.

...

I love Fire Bomber's songs, have all the CDs. It's pretty catchy music.

I actually prefer M7 to the SDFM TV series.

Unfortuantely Graham, we live in a world that has a slight pack mentality. If one person doesn't like it, then another gets influenced by that opinion and follows the leader.

I accept that some of you have seen the whole series and didn't like it. Fair enough. However, some people have only seen a couple of episodes, but seem to be stuck on a couple of issues and unable to move past them. Most common of all the 'Valks with faces' issue.

Think of the person who passes judgement on certain food yet has never actually eaten that food. The same applies. As my mom told me growing up, if you don't try it, how do you know it doesn't taste good? The best thing to do is mark the opinion as incomplete.

I first started watching Macross 7, what over 10 years ago. Yes, the Valks with faces annoyed me at first as well. I felt betrayed by kawamori for sullying the classic VF design.

Funny...the valk designs never bothered me when I watched it 10 years ago.

I disagree that the first 10 eps of M7 are too slow. I think lots happens and there are a couple of real classic eps in the first 10 eps. Ep # 7 is one of my all time favs. Mylene in a bikini and Gamlin kicking ass in a borrowed VF-11C.

That was actually my first problem. Although having never watched a long-running animated TV series, I thought it was moving too slow. Then I watched Maison Ikoku (Maison is 95/96 episodes long for you kids who've never seen it and it virtually repeats itself every episode) Marmalade Boy (76 episodes). That certainly changed my opinion of M7 's pacing.

...

I love Fire Bomber's songs, have all the CDs. It's pretty catchy music.

...

There are days when Fire Bomber sounds soooo much better than idol pop (Minmay).

[jenius]

My argument is in the 8th post of this thread.

Sorry A1, I was actually joking about the post above yours by Final Vegeta.

I've agreed with you on previous M7 threads, and still do, so I won't waste anyone's time with more of the same.

[Hurin]

This attitude of "I haven't watched Macross 7 and I'm not going to watch it beacuse member XYZ say it's bad...blah....blah...blah" really irks me. Form your own opinion guys! Try it first before you make a judgement based soley on other's opinions.

Well, as the guy who pretty clearly (though ashamedly) said something along those lines, I'd like to explain myself a bit:

Graham, I hear ya. I am a Tolkien (books) fan. And one of my friends is an newly minted English Professor who simply will not read Tolkien based on his preconceptions of it and its standing in his area of expertise. No amount of convincing will get him to try it. Indeed, I even gave him a $60 faux-leatherbound edition. . . which he promptly used to prop up his desk!

Yes, opinions formed from ignorance are irritating. However, we all do it. How many times have we all seen a movie trailer and said: "That looks like the stupidest thing I've ever seen. . . you couldn't pay me to see it." And, then how likely are you to see it if a bunch of people you know see it and hate it? In a perfect world, we'd all have time to get a first-hand taste of everything before we pass judgement. But, in a lot of cases, we go with our gut, our knowledge of our own tastes, whatever information we can gather (incomplete as it may be) and the advice of people whose opinions we value. . . and then we ration out our attention (and resources) where we are most likely going to acheive gratification.

As someone who has not seen M7, I have refrained from commenting on it in the past. In this case, however, I made an exception because (1) I wanted to give some praise to A1 for so verbosely supporting what he was saying rather than just citing his own "awesomeness" as proof. It's not often that he does that, but when he does, he usually has some good points to make. And (2), I wanted to slip that SW reference in there.

Now, no, I haven't seen M7. But I've read a helluva lot about it. . . from the timeline, to reviews, screenshots, lineart, fan art, A1's rants, Keith's defenses. . . and after all that, I decided to pipe in to say that, knowing myself, and seeing how even M7's defenders describe it, it doesn't seem like something I would enjoy. I know myself, and, even as a kid, I wasn't easily able to overlook the Jar Jars, Wonder Twins, Spikes, Snarfs, Short-Rounds, and other lameness that surrounds otherwise cool things throughout the era of popular entertainment. Based on all this, and the descriptions of M7 by both its supporters and detractors, I'm pretty confident that I would strongly dislike M7 and resent its place in Macross canon the same way I resent sub-par chapters in the other fictional worlds that I enjoy. And, while I probably will some day see M7, I'm in no rush to spend $70 on bootlegs right away in a probably futile attempt to prove myself wrong!

But, as someone who hasn't seen the show, I retract my earlier statement because, obviously, I can't be 100% sure that I would dislike it.

H

Edited March 31, 2005 by Hurin

[1st Border Red Devil]

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

Ok,

that was the most f'd up defense of Macross 7 I've ever read in my life.

And people say I come up with weird defenses for the Spartas.....

[Jemstone]

Kind of ironic how many people hate on Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved with it, yet much of those same people dislike macross 7 and/or Macross Zero. Kawamori obviously isn't flawless...

I'm not one of those folks. While I hated certain aspect os the show like the horrid Valkyrie designs, Basara's while admirable resolute ideals but overall stupidity, Mylene, and hearing Planet Dance every other minute... It's still not that abd story wise. A1 has issues with alot of the aesthetics but that's a pretty shallow reason to dislike the show no matter how stupid the VFs look.

[Baseley09]

I don't get it.

It's like Transformers fans watching Victory & Masterforce but not Headmasters............or Neo Geo fans dissowning Playmore.

It's true people do it. I do it, but in some cases you gotta sit through the pain.

[JB0]

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

Ok,

that was the most f'd up defense of Macross 7 I've ever read in my life.

And people say I come up with weird defenses for the Spartas.....

He's really not a very sharp guy. Better off ignoring him.

[JB0]

Actually, I don't know why so many people dislike Macross 7.

This attitude of "I haven't watched Macross 7 and I'm not going to watch it beacuse member XYZ say it's bad...blah....blah...blah" really irks me. Form your own opinion guys! Try it first before you make a judgement based soley on other's opinions.

*nods*

I went in with the understanding that it was a very "love it or hate it" thing, based on what a few... vocal... people here have to say, as well as reviews scattered about the internet.

Most common of all the 'Valks with faces' issue.

Random thought... the Valk faces are very Gundam.

A1, Max wears an officers dress uniform with a cloak for a lot of the show.....so what? he's still Max, he's still cool. He commands the Battle 7 and kicks ass at the end of the series in a VF-22S. He has all the Bridge Bunnies after him as well. Personally I think the military uniform looks fine, certainly better than what HG had Max wearing in Sentinels. I don't recall seeing Max wearing a dress in M7. Max also dresses pretty smartly when in civilian clothes.

Millia, great character. Mayor of City 7 and kicks ass in her classic VF-1J, a VF-17S and a VF-22S. Another reason to watch M7.

And more Max and Millia is ALWAYS a good thing.

They need to remake the original series, but focus on Max and Millia instead.

Added bonus to more Millia: more QRaus.

Gamlin my favorite character. I always think of him as the star of the show, not Basara.

But... he got Millia's VF-1J blown up. I'm pretty sure that's a sin.

[Agent ONE]

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

Ok,

that was the most f'd up defense of Macross 7 I've ever read in my life.

And people say I come up with weird defenses for the Spartas.....

He's really not a very sharp guy. Better off ignoring him.

Final Vegeta and Lowviz lurker are the most difficult people to understand on this board.

[JB0]

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

Ok,

that was the most f'd up defense of Macross 7 I've ever read in my life.

And people say I come up with weird defenses for the Spartas.....

He's really not a very sharp guy. Better off ignoring him.

Final Vegeta and Lowviz lurker are the most difficult people to understand on this board.

Final Vegeta's not hard to understand.

He's just everything one expects from someone with a DBZ screenname(read: stupid).

[Hurin]

He's just everything one expects from someone with a DBZ screenname(read: stupid).

I wouldn't say that. It just sounds to me like he's been enveloped in a lot of Left-wing rhetoric.

To paraphrase one of our former Presidents: "It's not that he's stupid. It's that he knows a lot of things that just aren't so."

H

[JB0]

He's just everything one expects from someone with a DBZ screenname(read: stupid).

I wouldn't say that. It just sounds to me like he's been enveloped in a lot of Left-wing rhetoric.

To paraphrase one of our former Presidents: "It's not that he's stupid. It's that he knows a lot of things that just aren't so."

H

I'm not talking solely about his spouting of random conspiracy theories.

Even when he's NOT making a ny vaguely political comments he's an idiot.

[Jemstone]

So, real world and Macross 7 can teach you the same lesson.

Brainwash! Brainwash! Brainwash!

Ok,

that was the most f'd up defense of Macross 7 I've ever read in my life.

And people say I come up with weird defenses for the Spartas.....

He's really not a very sharp guy. Better off ignoring him.

Final Vegeta and Lowviz lurker are the most difficult people to understand on this board.

Final Vegeta's not hard to understand.

He's just everything one expects from someone with a DBZ screenname(read: stupid).

And people say I'm harsh......