Evangelion Angel Question

[Golden Arms]

Thanks for the correction, I never heard of the mistranslation. I skipped out on the remastered dvd's. But it doesn't change the fact you need Lilith for the 3rd impact. The humans or Angels didn't really need Adam Since the Evas are clones of Adam, and the Angels come from him. Unit 01 Becomes the new Lilith and floates away towards the close of EOE. To potentially start life elsewhere. If Adam was THE source of life then the Angels Battling the Evas would initiate the 3rd impact.

Edited March 30, 2005 by Golden Arms

[Memphis Egyptologist]

If Adam was THE source of life then the Angels Battling the Evas would initiate the 3rd impact.

Not THE source of life, but A source of life like Lilith is what I take the dialogue to mean. Not that Adam came from her.

[wolfx]

Helpful link there memphis. Expains Golden's misconception as well. And that's basically what I thought it would be.

But it doesn't change the fact you need Lilith for the 3rd impact

Yes, I agree. But there are 2 ways to initiate the 3rd impact as shown by the website.

They plan to initiate Third Impact - not with Angels, but by using the Eva series.

Lilith would never initiate a 3rd Impact if the Angels got to it. But if angels got to Adam, then it would, which serves no purpose to SEELE. The difference SEELE did was to use EVA and Lilith to initiate the 3rd impact, that would be more fitting to their plans of human evolution.

[Keith]

Manga's translation is irrelivent, Lilith & Adam are two equal beings which come from one single larger being (also) called Lilith.

-Lilith comes to Earth,

-Seperates into 2 beings/Eggs

-Black Moon (Lilith side) crashes down into what would become Tokyo-3

-White Moon (Adam) crashes into what would become Antactica

-Both events create what is called "First Impact."

From the White Moon egg evolves what would become Angels, & from the Black Moon egg evolves what would become humans. Both are incomplete sides of the larger "whole" being, and each contains one element of:

-Fruits of Life (from the Adam side), i.e. the immortality of having an S2 Organ/Angel core, whichever name you choose to call it.

-Fruits of Wisdom (from the Lilith side), a mortal existence, but one of mass community, evolution, technology, etc.

Through both the RCB & series dialogue itself, you can decipher all of the above, as well as the direct fact that the complete god can not exist without both Fruits of Life/Fruits of Wisdom. Also take into account that:

-The Eva series 02-13 were clones of Adam

-Eva Units 01 (and likely 00) were clones of Lilith.

Neither were gods on their own, but once Eva 01 took the S2 Organ into itself (i.e. fruits of Life from the Adam side) it became a god, or more accurately, Yui Ikari became a god.

As for Rei, she was a clone of Yui with the soul of Lilith (the seperated form Lilith), and Kaworu was a clone of (who knows, maybe Kaji?) with te soul of Adam. In EoE, Gendo intended to use his own soul in Lieu of Adam's to become a god himself (Lilith + her soul Rei + Body of Adam implanted in Gendo's hand + Gendo's Soul = God), but instead Rei rejected him, and took Lilith + her soul + Body of Adam from Gendo's hand + Soul of Adam/Kaworu which had resided in Terminal Dogma after Shinji killed him = the original full form god Lilith. The confusing aspect for most is that both Adam + Lilith = Lilith and Lilith - Adam still = Lilith (though only Angel Lilith, not God Lilith).

The whole deal with the Angel's attacking to join with Adam was obviously a lie, since the existence of Lilith wasn't made known to the Eva pilots, Nerv staff (aside from Gendo, Fuyutski, & Ritsko), or even Kaji. What type of Third Impact would have happened if the Angels succeeded in joining with Lilith isn't really clear, if any would have happened at all. Seele however believed that by controlling the god, they could achieve what they believed to be a perfect existence, by re-joining with Lilith in an eternal embryonic state of nothingness. It didn't really matter which god they used (Lilith or Yui), since both in theory would help them achieve the same goal, and they needed to have a pilot with the desire for death (destrado) to skew the joining with Lilith in that direction. Assumedly, the dummy plug would have served the same purpose, but Shinji wound up in the seat of control.

It isn't really said if the world would go back to normal, but I assume not. While it is definately stated that everyone would regain their original forms (after Shinji aborted the Instrumentality Single Form existence), the planet was still torn up. Likely humanity would just have to rebuild from scratch.

And of course, we have symetry with Yui leaving as a god to start the whole process of life in the end, just as Lilith came to Earth in the beginning to start it. It also explains why Yui left with the Longinus Spear, apparently the key to activating events.

Edited March 30, 2005 by Keith

[Keith]

Lilith would never initiate a 3rd Impact if the Angels got to it. But if angels got to Adam, then it would, which serves no purpose to SEELE. The difference SEELE did was to use EVA and Lilith to initiate the 3rd impact, that would be more fitting to their plans of human evolution.

Getting to Adam wouldn't cause Third Impact. The Angels already had the Fruits of Life side from Adam. They needed the Fruits of Wisdom side from Lilith. And assumedly, whoever was in the position of control would be able to initiate Third Impact. Seele didn't cause it, Lilith didn't cause it, Gendo didn't cause it, it was Shinji's desire for everything to end that caused it.

[Keith]

Actually, Rei is a cross between Yui and Lillith and the only one who can serve as a container for Lillith's soul. A quick note - this is a sci-fi story and the religious veneer just seems to be red herring.

I really dislike fanfics.

Well that's not quite true, Unit 00 also served as a container for part of Lilith's/Rei's soul. In fact, it's never said that Rei is the only possible container for Lilith's soul, a clone of Yui was merely the vessel Gendo chose. Assumedly, it could just as easily been a clone of anyone else. And yes, fanfics do suck.

[Keith]

I started Eva but couldn't stand it so I never finished so I have another question to add to these:

If these things are so Fukin evil why did they name them "Angels?"

They're not evil, they're simply fighting to maintain their own existence, which had been threatened by humans. As for why they're called Angels, it's because they're a class under Evangelion's interpretation of what a god is.

[wolfx]

Lilith would never initiate a 3rd Impact if the Angels got to it. But if angels got to Adam, then it would, which serves no purpose to SEELE. The difference SEELE did was to use EVA and Lilith to initiate the 3rd impact, that would be more fitting to their plans of human evolution.

Getting to Adam wouldn't cause Third Impact. The Angels already had the Fruits of Life side from Adam. They needed the Fruits of Wisdom side from Lilith. And assumedly, whoever was in the position of control would be able to initiate Third Impact. Seele didn't cause it, Lilith didn't cause it, Gendo didn't cause it, it was Shinji's desire for everything to end that caused it.

Quoted from evaotakus

Q) Are there really different types of Third Impact? A Constructive and Destructive one?

A) Well.. yes and no. Both "types" of Third Impact result in the destruction of humanity. If an Angel came into contact with Adam (or Lilith) it would seem they would have been Complemented. Kaworu tells Shinji that only one form of life can escape annihilation and inherit the future - and that the Lilim are not the ones who should perish (he thus sacrificed his life to give humans a chance).

The entire Evangelion TV series is, then, a prelude to the real mission at hand - the Human Complement Project. A project to unite life through death, to return to the womb of Lilith and exist as a single perfect being.

THe fruits theory is fruity at best. Shinji's choice wasn't the choice of ENDING or leaving it as it is. His choice was to accept or reject Instrumentality/Complementation which in the movie he rejected, causing all souls to be of a single entity with AT Fields, as opposed to ONE big Lilith being with no AT-Fields.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Kaworu was a clone of (who knows, maybe Kaji?) with te soul of Adam.

In the Red Cross Book RCB, it states that Kaworu is likely another Angel embryo SEELE captured. Has this changed with the new PS2 game? I always figured that since Kaworu was Tabris the Angel of Free Will, that he took human form out of his free will much like when he decided to let Shinji decide his fate.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

And of course, we have symetry with Yui leaving as a god to start the whole process of life in the end, just as Lilith came to Earth in the beginning to start it.

I thought the EVA01 shot was supposed to indicate that it was the proof that humans existed, with their own problems of the heart: relationships, lack of parents etc. being that most of the emphasis is on human relationships.

[Keith]

And of course, we have symetry with Yui leaving as a god to start the whole process of life in the end, just as Lilith came to Earth in the beginning to start it.

I thought the EVA01 shot was supposed to indicate that it was the proof that humans existed, with their own problems of the heart: relationships, lack of parents etc. being that most of the emphasis is on human relationships.

Nope, Shinji & Asuka on the shore was proof that humans still existed. Yui' purpose in becoming a god was to ensure life would continue no matter which existence Shinji chose.

[Keith]

Kaworu was a clone of (who knows, maybe Kaji?) with te soul of Adam.

In the Red Cross Book RCB, it states that Kaworu is likely another Angel embryo SEELE captured. Has this changed with the new PS2 game? I always figured that since Kaworu was Tabris the Angel of Free Will, that he took human form out of his free will much like when he decided to let Shinji decide his fate.

Psst.

"[Adam]

The 1st Angel. The giant of light discovered in Antarctica. The information that Adam was confined underground below NERV HQ turned out to be false -- that underground giant was in fact Lilith. The real Adam was the embryo-like object brought by Kaji from Germany. This was result of humans reducing Adam to an embryonic state after waking it up with the S^2 theory. Second Impact appears to have been an effect of this process. The book of Genesis in the Old Testament records that Adam was the first human to be created by God in His image. There are various theories as to the etymology of the word "Adam", among them: "earth", "red" and "create". "

Seele never fought any Angels on their own.

[Keith]

Quoted from evaotakus

Q) Are there really different types of Third Impact? A Constructive and Destructive one?

A) Well.. yes and no. Both "types" of Third Impact result in the destruction of humanity. If an Angel came into contact with Adam (or Lilith) it would seem they would have been Complemented. Kaworu tells Shinji that only one form of life can escape annihilation and inherit the future - and that the Lilim are not the ones who should perish (he thus sacrificed his life to give humans a chance).

The entire Evangelion TV series is, then, a prelude to the real mission at hand - the Human Complement Project. A project to unite life through death, to return to the womb of Lilith and exist as a single perfect being.

THe fruits theory is fruity at best. Shinji's choice wasn't the choice of ENDING or leaving it as it is. His choice was to accept or reject Instrumentality/Complementation which in the movie he rejected, causing all souls to be of a single entity with AT Fields, as opposed to ONE big Lilith being with no AT-Fields.

If you're going to quote something, try quoting something without ADV's initial mistranslations (complementation). First, both the movie & TV endings were exactly the same, the same choices were made in both, as well as the same results being achieved. I also don't see where you're contradicting the fruits of life/wisdom, as that's all canon. It's in the RCB, it's spokem by Fuyutski, and it's executed by both Yui & Lilith/Rei.

Now there is no way to be a single entity & still have AT fields. AT fields are what was keeping everyone seperate to begin with. There are two types of existences to choose from:

Community Form - i.e. leave things how they are.

Single Form - Tear down everyones AT fields, and join them into one big blob of nothingness.

Perhaps it was the giant Lilith that confused you. Everyone wasn't joining into that body for an existence, the purpose of that was for her to both tear down everyones AT fields, then gather all the LCL/souls into the egg. Once that was done, Lilith (Rei) would have also joined into the egg, as she was about to do before giving Shinji a final choice as to which existence to continue in. The body would have shed away anyway.

What we had first, was Shinji's choice for destruction, which lead to everyone being broken down & gathered together into that egg. Once there, Shinji realized it was a hollow existence, & chose to go back to the way things were. Then as shown, the egg splits open, spilling all of the LCL back into the ocean, allowing people to regain their original forms & AT fields. You'll notice a direct corrilation with the studio set & the way it breaks up in the TV series, the same exact events just depicted in a different manner.

Instrumentality doesn't equate to Third Impact, it doesn't equate to aborting Third Impact, it's simply the process by which humans interact with each other.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Seele never fought any Angels on their own.

Captured doesn't necessarily mean fought as anyone can be captured without a battle. Maybe saying that Seele found Tabris as an embryo and then later raised him or whatever would be better?

[Memphis Egyptologist]

[Nope, Shinji & Asuka on the shore was proof that humans still existed.

Or at least two messed up people with their fair share of human problems.

[Keith]

Seele never fought any Angels on their own.

Captured doesn't necessarily mean fought as anyone can be captured without a battle. Maybe saying that Seele found Tabris as an embryo and then later raised him or whatever would be better?

Considering that in the Director's Cut episode 4, it's spelled out who Kaworu is:

"SEELE:

In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the Black Moon...

SEELE:

And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

SEELE:

And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

SEELE 01:

But whose revived body is already inside Ikari. "

The scene where Kaworu is out speaking with the Seele Monoliths.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Considering that in the Director's Cut episode 4, it's spelled out who Kaworu is:

SEELE: And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

Is this in the dub or sub? I started watching the dub but it sucked so much that some of the cast would not/could not come back and were OD with different actors made me quit watching it. I have yet to watch the sub'd version, as I keep getting given more teaching duties at the university I go to and seem to lack time to watch much anime now.

[wolfx]

If you're going to quote something, try quoting something without ADV's initial mistranslations (complementation).

That site takes from the RCB and some weird thing called CARDASS game or something...which is supposedly accepted as canon.

Now there is no way to be a single entity & still have AT fields. AT fields are what was keeping everyone seperate to begin with. There are two types of existences to choose from:

Sorry....when i said single entity i meant singular or personal entity, not a giant hive mind like what I said in the later. I know AT Field seperate people from being a giant hive mind. Wrong usage of words.

Perhaps it was the giant Lilith that confused you. Everyone wasn't joining into that body for an existence, the purpose of that was for her to both tear down everyones AT fields, then gather all the LCL/souls into the egg.

Yeh...I kinda assumed they'd look something like her by the end of it.

==================================================

Your theories are interesting, but some of them seem to be just fan-speculation. Like for example:

Lilith & Adam are two equal beings which come from one single larger being (also) called Lilith.

I think it is canon that they are both seperate from the beginning.

And you said something about the Angels wanting to join with Lilith because they wanted the fruit of knowledge from her.....there was no clear intent of the Angels and why they wanted to rejoin Adam or Lilith, so I assume this is another fan-theory.

[Commander McBride]

Cardass refers to the card game, yes, but it's not the name of it. Cardass is the manufacturer / publisher. They also make the Gundam War card game, and others.

[Keith]

Considering that in the Director's Cut episode 4, it's spelled out who Kaworu is:

SEELE: And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

Is this in the dub or sub? I started watching the dub but it sucked so much that some of the cast would not/could not come back and were OD with different actors made me quit watching it. I have yet to watch the sub'd version, as I keep getting given more teaching duties at the university I go to and seem to lack time to watch much anime now.

Dub....a dub for Evangelion exists? It's from the Director's Cut version of episode 24, either available on ADV's last year march release of the DC episodes, or on the Platinum Vol 6...which incidentally isn't out yet. Not sure which version you've watched, but there are two versions of Evangelion. The original broadcast version, which ADV initially licensed. And the Director's cut version, which was the Japanese home video re-edit of the series (though only episodes 21-24), & added new scenes, as well as new versions of scenes. The one described above was one such scene.

[Keith]

That site takes from the RCB and some weird thing called CARDASS game or something...which is supposedly accepted as canon.

And yet they're using an ADV dub innacuracy (complementation) as well, which automatically makes me take the site with a grain of salt.

Sorry....when i said single entity i meant singular or personal entity, not a giant hive mind like what I said in the later. I know AT Field seperate people from being a giant hive mind. Wrong usage of words.

Ah.

QUOTE

Perhaps it was the giant Lilith that confused you. Everyone wasn't joining into that body for an existence, the purpose of that was for her to both tear down everyones AT fields, then gather all the LCL/souls into the egg.

Yeh...I kinda assumed they'd look something like her by the end of it.

All the things that looked like her were her, amongst her powers, she could apparently appear ot everyone in the world as a comforting image to ease down their AT fields.

Your theories are interesting, but some of them seem to be just fan-speculation. Like for example:

QUOTE

Lilith & Adam are two equal beings which come from one single larger being (also) called Lilith.

I think it is canon that they are both seperate from the beginning.

And you said something about the Angels wanting to join with Lilith because they wanted the fruit of knowledge from her.....there was no clear intent of the Angels and why they wanted to rejoin Adam or Lilith, so I assume this is another fan-theory.

It's no fan theory. It's clearly stated that there are two elements required to become a god. Angels only had the fruits of life, and if their goal was also to initiate Third Impact, then they required the Fruits of Wisdom (Lilith side) in order to do it. It basically breaks down like this:

-Humans & Angels are 99.89% genetically similar.

-The reason for that similarity is because both originate from the same source, the god Lilith that contained both the Fruits of Life & Fruits of Wisdom.

-The Fruits of Life & Wisdom aren't literally Fruits, as with everything else in Evangelion, merely religious references used as terms to describe something else. It could have just as easily been Yin & Yang.

-Adam was 1 genetic half of being a god, Lilith was the other genetic half of being a god, combined both formed the full god Lilith.

-And of course, only through a god could Third Impact come to be.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Keith

[Memphis Egyptologist]

Dub....a dub for Evangelion exists? It's from the Director's Cut version of episode 24....

Yup, a dub exists of the original TV edits, the directors cut and then some. The original release even was quadlingual (French, Spanish, Japanese, English), as I used the French version to improve my skills in French translation. The English dub wasn't bad, IMHO, but the Director's cut episodes stank dubwise. I love the Japanese original TV edit, but just waiting to find time to watch the Director's cuts in Japanese. Not going to double dip with the Platinum episodes, as there have already been problems with their release and the originals suit me just fine.

[Keith]

Dub....a dub for Evangelion exists? It's from the Director's Cut version of episode 24....

Yup, a dub exists of the original TV edits, the directors cut and then some. The original release even was quadlingual (French, Spanish, Japanese, English), as I used the French version to improve my skills in French translation. The English dub wasn't bad, IMHO, but the Director's cut episodes stank dubwise. I love the Japanese original TV edit, but just waiting to find time to watch the Director's cuts in Japanese. Not going to double dip with the Platinum episodes, as there have already been problems with their release and the originals suit me just fine.

Actually, the only problem with the Platinum release is regarding the dub (missing dialogue) everything else is awesome, especially the picture. At the very least though, pic up the DC disc's, the changes are worth it.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

At the very least though, pic up the DC disc's, the changes are worth it.

The DC discs of the Platinum release or the non-Platinum DC releases? I have the DC DVD before the current Platinum releases, so I'm happy with those. Right now I just can't justify double dipping EVA DVDs as tuition here at the university is going up, up, up, and my TV is giving up the ghost, meaning I'm going to have to start creating a new TV fund.

[Keith]

At the very least though, pic up the DC disc's, the changes are worth it.

The DC discs of the Platinum release or the non-Platinum DC releases? I have the DC DVD before the current Platinum releases, so I'm happy with those. Right now I just can't justify double dipping EVA DVDs as tuition here at the university is going up, up, up, and my TV is giving up the ghost, meaning I'm going to have to start creating a new TV fund.

If you have the regular DC disc's you're cool, and watch the DC ep 24!