Newbie Questions on Macross

[Wastegate13]

If I can save some money I'll shop where you tell me to.    I guess I've already started. I ordered DYRL? as well as Macross Plus Vol 1&2 and Macross Plus the Movie. All should be here sometime next week so I'll have plenty to view and enjoy. Still want to get my hands on the original series if I can somehow, maybe I will man up and pay the 200 bucks for the remastered version.

Please view the links I have posted a few pages back.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...pic=140&st=1180

Those are great places that still have the original series in stock.

Thank you very much. This board has been a great help and I don't feel as hated as one normally would being a noob on any other board. I'm in the process of getting my friends hooked and they were reading the timeline on the Macross Compendium today, lol.

[Murphy]

i got a question, why did they make the vf-19s and vf-19kai so ugly?, when they could of left it looking like the vf-19a/yf-19.

[azrael]

i got a question, why did they make the vf-19s and vf-19kai so ugly?, when they could of left it looking like the vf-19a/yf-19.

Production variants are common (And I don't find them ugly, I find them functional).

Secondly, please read:

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...vf19/index.html

The VF-19A looked virtually identical to the YF-19 prototype.

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/toys/v...final_proto.htm

The VF-19 Kai is a variant of the VF-19A, and since the VF-19P is a variant of the Kai, it too, is a variant of the A-version. However, improvements were made to the VF-19 Kai compared to the VF-19A (rudders were merged with the wing, tail stablizers were pushed out farther, the 3-vernier block was replaced by the vernier slits, shoulders were streamlined, weapons bays were redesigned to accomodate a more versatile system).

The VF-19F/S version is a new variant mixed with the improvements of the VF-19 Kai. The VF-19 F/S models are optimized for space-use. However, this does not mean they cannot operate in atmosphere. Hence the redesigned wing and removal of the forward canards (replaced by the 3-verniers set).

Why don't they look the same? Because improvements always happen. The F/A-22 doesn't look exactly like the YF-22 because improvements were made over time.

Graham wrote up a lovely little article on the VF-19 way back which, as I see, is a completely feasible (not official mind you) piece of writing (See attached).

vf19history.txt

[Murphy]

i got a question, why did they make the vf-19s and vf-19kai so ugly?, when they could of left it looking like the vf-19a/yf-19.

Production variants are common (And I don't find them ugly, I find them functional).

Secondly, please read:

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...vf19/index.html

The VF-19A looked virtually identical to the YF-19 prototype.

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/toys/v...final_proto.htm

The VF-19 Kai is a variant of the VF-19A, and since the VF-19P is a variant of the Kai, it too, is a variant of the A-version. However, improvements were made to the VF-19 Kai compared to the VF-19A (rudders were merged with the wing, tail stablizers were pushed out farther, the 3-vernier block was replaced by the vernier slits, shoulders were streamlined, weapons bays were redesigned to accomodate a more versatile system).

The VF-19F/S version is a new variant mixed with the improvements of the VF-19 Kai. The VF-19 F/S models are optimized for space-use. However, this does not mean they cannot operate in atmosphere. Hence the redesigned wing and removal of the forward canards (replaced by the 3-verniers set).

Why don't they look the same? Because improvements always happen. The F/A-22 doesn't look exactly like the YF-22 because improvements were made over time.

Graham wrote up a lovely little article on the VF-19 way back which, as I see, is a completely feasible (not official mind you) piece of writing (See attached).

thanks for the info, but i have read the links you provided before, i was just wondering why did the "animators" changed the look? did they want something new to fit mac7?

[azrael]

i was just wondering why did the "animators" changed the look? did they want something new to fit mac7?

Yep. Kawamori simplified the design for the animators (mainly for the VF-19 Kai, which did start out with an identical silhoutte to the YF-19/VF19A). Basically, he streamlined the design to show advancement from his original design to a more smoother design and in some cases...take pity on the animators. However, for detailed work, Kawamori did do a more detailed lineart of the VF-19 (to help the animators do close-up shots). Back in the day of drawing and coloring by hand, it was easier to streamline designs to help animators save time and money. He did the reverse of this with M0. In M0, Kawamori took the VF-1 and de-streamlined it to the VF-0. This gave the VF-0 a more prototype/slap-together/non-streamlined look compared to the VF-1.

[gian7675]

Just wondering, what's the name and class of the Flag ship of the VF-X2 Ravens? The ship that I'm referring to is the one in the Intro wherein tyou can see a VF-19? taking off from the deck.

I tried search and nothing came up so I spologize if this was already asked here

gian7675

[azrael]

IRC, the carrier for most of the game is the Saratoga II (CV 565). It is a Uraga class-variant (and it is quite a different variant).

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...raga/index.html

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Q about VF1 backpacks:

In space it would be possible to have these folded down in fighter mode right? (imagine a valk without its FAST pack attached but with its back pack folded)

Would it make more sense then, to always fly around in space with the backpack folded down (like you see in gerwalk mode) instead of the normal fighter mode in an atmosphere, (laid flat) because of the extra thrust you could generate?

In the tv series when fast packs weren't common, I would think having the extra thrust from the backpack would help alot instead of wasting it. Can we assume then that once a vf1 is in space, along with sealing it's intakes with covers, it would also fold up the backpack thingy?

Question about head laser:

Can these things be controlled by an AI computer system to act as a virtual gunner? I ask because after seeing Roy guide the shots manually in macross zero, you would think he would have a pretty big headache after trying to track the missiles and shoot each one by himself. I imagine that similar to a drone, there would be some sort of system that could be turned on to automatically track targets without any assistance from the pilot and help shoot down any incoming missiles or fast moving targets without bothering the pilot who is controlling the mech's movement.

The only problem I see is obstructions getting in the way, like the computer accidently killing your friend because he got in the way of the shot and happens to be near an enemy target. But I say that if there are many ghost drones attacking you and following you around like dogs to postmen in space, what better way than to fight fire with fire?

I can imagine a mode to turn it on and off. Say for example when a Qrau launches dozens of little micromissiles that swarm you in all directions, instead of dodging them (like Max) or manually hitting them (like Roy does in Macross Zero) you could just flick the AI Gunner Buddy mode to 'On' and, provided you are in a suitable mode with no obstructions and the angle means you are clear to take the shot, the computer would act like a seperate human gunner shooting the target for you, and the pilot would manuever. (probably flying backwards with nose facing the targets in gerwalk mode or something)

Edited February 20, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

Q about VF1 backpacks:

In space it would be possible to have these folded down in fighter mode right? (imagine a valk without its FAST pack attached but with its back pack folded)

Would it make more sense then, to always fly around in space with the backpack folded down (like you see in gerwalk mode) instead of the normal fighter mode in an atmosphere, (laid flat) because of the extra thrust you could generate?

In the tv series when fast packs weren't common, I would think having the extra thrust from the backpack would help alot instead of wasting it. Can we assume then that once a vf1 is in space, along with sealing it's intakes with covers, it would also fold up the backpack thingy?

Nah. The backpack, if I had to bet, is using thrust diverted from the main engines.

May as well just use it straight out the engines.

[azrael]

Nah. The backpack, if I had to bet, is using thrust diverted from the main engines.

Nope. Their just chemical-fuel rockets.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf1/index.html

It would be best to think about the backpack as something along the lines of an afterburner. Quick burst of power but not for prolong use. So no, it would not be a good idea for the backpack to be folded up.

May as well just use it straight out the engines.

Yep.

Question about head laser:

Can these things be controlled by an AI computer system to act as a virtual gunner?

The head lasers (when used as a CIWS) probably are controlled by an automated system (i.e. Phalanx weapon systems mounted on current naval ships ). What Roy appeared to be doing was targetting those missiles manually in his VF-0 (which I assume would be later replaced by a computerized targetting system).

[Druna Skass]

How come the New-Macross classes don't have the SDF designation?

[azrael]

How come the New-Macross classes don't have the SDF designation?

Because they aren't of that class anymore. SDFs were mobile fortresses that also served as carriers. New-Macross class are fleet carriers and not mobile fortresses.

[Druna Skass]

How come the New-Macross classes don't have the SDF designation?

Because they aren't of that class anymore. SDFs were mobile fortresses that also served as carriers. New-Macross class are fleet carriers and not mobile fortresses.

Well what makes a Mobile Fortress then? What puts the Macross in that category and not the New Macross?

[azrael]

Well what makes a Mobile Fortress then? What puts the Macross in that category and not the New Macross?

The fact that it is not a dedicated aircraft carrier. Macross was designed to hold aircraft but those tasks would have been shared with the ARMD carriers (and the Prometheus). It was a battleship first. The New-Macross class are aircraft carriers first, battleships second. It is reflected in it's design. The New-Macross class is designed to only enter combat when needed; enter into ship-to-ship combat when needed. Macross could engage in combat without the dire need of a fighter wing (SDF was a gunboat originally so it's design would have allowed it to do so).

[JB0]

Well what makes a Mobile Fortress then? What puts the Macross in that category and not the New Macross?

The fact that it is not a dedicated aircraft carrier. Macross was designed to hold aircraft but those tasks would have been shared with the ARMD carriers (and the Prometheus). It was a battleship first. The New-Macross class are aircraft carriers first, battleships second. It is reflected in it's design. The New-Macross class is designed to only enter combat when needed; enter into ship-to-ship combat when needed. Macross could engage in combat without the dire need of a fighter wing (SDF was a gunboat originally so it's design would have allowed it to do so).

As I recall things the SDF-1 was woefully inadequate for solo combat, to the extent that they were marching destroids out onto the skin in an attempt to add some guns.

...

Of course, the ASS-1 may have had more guns mounted before it crashed. There's a good possibility a lot of stuff was damaged beyond repair during the atmospheric entry and crash(leaving a lump of molten metal and fused circuits that was totally unidentifiable to humans new to the tech presented in the ship), or even totally destroyed.

I would argue the SDF designation was more due to humanity's total lack of familiarity with interstellar combat at the time.

When it's your first interstellar combat vessel, it's hard to say if it's a gunboat or a destroyer or a carrier. Or even if they USE something analogous to our modern ship classes for space combat.

Based on the ARMD and Oberth, humanity seems to have either assumed the ASS/SDF was the top-end vessel of the aliens, or else just acknowledged that we couldn't hope to build a fleet of such advanced vessels and settled for what we could.

Someone looked at the ASS-1, said "Holy crap, look at how big this this thing is! It's like a giant ... space fortress or something" and the label stuck, because they didn't have anything more appropriate, and it sounded a lot better than "Alien Space Ship."

The fact that they were a lot more familiar with things after contact with the Zentradi would also explain why the SDF class was abandoned. It just wasn't workable, especially for a humanity with severely limited resources.

Even if they overhauled it and added more guns(anti-fighter weapons especially), it was an awkward design for humanity's purposes that

A. lacked adequate fighter deployment facilities for a military vessel(and really had nowhere to stick them),

B. lacked adequate space for a colonization mission(without forcing people to adapt to an odd 3-dimensional city layout), and

C. could be seriously crippled by a fold system failure(granted, the incident that ripped out the SDF-1's fold drive was a singularly unique event).

The reconfigurable design of the SDF class was a neat concept.

But it added a lot of complexity and was of limited utility, as it

1. spaced large quantities of atmosphere during reconfiguration,

2. a good portion of the interior was unsafe to use if you ever intended to reconfigure the vessel, and

3. the only justification I know of for reconfiguration was to patch wiring problems that shouldn't happen, particularly if you packed some spare parts.

Presuably the Macross 7 transformations are designed to avoid problems 1 and 2.

3... well, it lets you use the ship's bow for launches without sacrificing the big gun. That adds a lot of catapult space, which that was one of the SDF's big deficiencies.

Still can't explain the hands, though.

[azrael]

As I recall things the SDF-1 was woefully inadequate for solo combat, to the extent that they were marching destroids out onto the skin in an attempt to add some guns.

...

I said ship-to-ship combat. Not ship-to-fighter. It's hard to deny that SDF-1 can engage a capital ship with the firepower it has. However, when it comes to defense of the ship, that's a new problem (it seemed to have lacked some anti-aircraft defenses pre-2012).

[JB0]

As I recall things the SDF-1 was woefully inadequate for solo combat, to the extent that they were marching destroids out onto the skin in an attempt to add some guns.

...

I said ship-to-ship combat. Not ship-to-fighter. It's hard to deny that SDF-1 can engage a capital ship with the firepower it has. However, when it comes to defense of the ship, that's a new problem (it seemed to have lacked some anti-aircraft defenses pre-2012).

Fair enough.

But it seemed all the zentradi ships had heavy fighter escorts, so you needed good anti-fighter defenses for ship-ship combat.

...

And they were marching the Monsters out too. Those aren't for anti-fighter purposes.

[Laserstorm]

Concerning background music in Macross the series, is it different from the background music in Robotech and in what degree? I mean is Robotech background music (zentraedi theme, battle theme, etc.) made from scratch?

[The Shade]

All the Robotech music you hear in the 2 disc OST they packaged a few years ago was made from scratch by HG and Co. And yes, it is very different from Macross. The music was changed in order to have musical continuity with all 3 RT chapters, while the 3 original series all have different music from each other (since they were unrelated).

Personal observation: I always thought the music in RT sounded more American, and the Macross music sounded more Japanese. Anyone else ever have that feeling?

[JB0]

All the Robotech music you hear in the 2 disc OST they packaged a few years ago was made from scratch by HG and Co.  And yes, it is very different from Macross.  The music was changed in order to have musical continuity with all 3 RT chapters, while the 3 original series all have different music from each other (since they were unrelated).

Personal observation: I always thought the music in RT sounded more American, and the Macross music sounded more Japanese.  Anyone else ever have that feeling?

It's been ages since I've heard Robotech.

I remember the title sequence was catchy... And Minmay only had one song</mild_exageration>.

Edited February 25, 2005 by JB0

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The robotech music had heavier sounding music for battle scenes and a real echo on the drums. (on the dvd they mentioned having recorded this in a church or something? I have this image in my head that there is actually a giant drum being beaten by a zentradi. )

I thought that conveyed a sense of danger when the zentradi giants started attacking and for when they were scrambled suddenly. I really liked this. But apart from battle music I thought the original music in macross showed much more range.

Although the title music in robotech sounded more anthemic, (thanks to the echo.) the macross one sounded more catchy. Mak-u-rosu!! Mak-u-rosu! Like a jingle for an ad.

The main thing people will probably remember about robo's music is how cheesy and repetitive minmay's song were. Even back then, they were funny.

Edited February 26, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Laserstorm]

Yeah, RT Minmei's songs are SOO cheesee and rundown during the RT, that whenever I hear a first sylable of it I'm just fast-forwarding to the end of it. And I knew about Minmei's songs being different I just didn't know about other. Zentraedi theme was realy cool, as well as the main battle theme.

[grss1982]

can anybody explain whta the heck is that yellow-black striped thingy on top of isamu's head? ejection set swith perhaps? Also the only other valk i've seen this one is one the sv-51.

Edited March 5, 2005 by grss1982

[azrael]

can anybody explain whta the heck is that yellow-black striped thingy on top of isamu's head? ejection set swith perhaps? Also the only other valk i've seen this one is one the sv-51.

It's known as a face curtain.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/ejection-seat1.htm

Modern ejection seats use the middle handle system as opposed to the face curtain. Although, there are models incorporate both a face curtain and a middle handle still in use. The "face curtain" design is to protect your head from debris and other nasty stuff upon ejection in addition to holding down your head. A similar method is used by passengers on commercial airliners (for those of you who have flown, remember the safety briefing before every flight).

Edited March 5, 2005 by azrael

[1st Border Red Devil]

I said ship-to-ship combat. Not ship-to-fighter. It's hard to deny that SDF-1 can engage a capital ship with the firepower it has.

Umm,

I could be mistaken, but was the SDF-1 ever shown destroying a capital vessel above the size of a Thuverl-Salan Destroyer? I don't buy into the idea that somehow the main gun on the SDF-1 was some 'uber' weapon as the show is hardly conclusive on the matter. Sure, its good for the Scout and Destroyer ships, but it didnt even vapourize the Monitor seen in Eps. #36. It gutted one Destroyer and blew up another by a near miss in Eps. #1.

If it was truly as powerful as people state, wouldn't the shockwave have simply crushed the Monitor in eps. 36?

[HWR MKII]

For a good example of the face shield in use watch the movie flight of the intruder it is the only time i have seen it used on screen.

1BRD

interesting how you noticed that too. the cannon isnt an "uber" weapon so to speak but it is a excellent anti ship weapon. its basically the supervision army version of what the zentradi have. The main reason the macross was not to be destroyed was the fact that humans had "reaction" weapons and they didnt. In the end bodolza said screw it because of the effect that music and culture were having on his fleet and ordered the human race exterminated.

[JB0]

interesting how you noticed that too. the cannon isnt an "uber" weapon so to speak but it is a excellent anti ship weapon. its basically the supervision army version of  what the zentradi have. The main reason the macross was not to be destroyed was the fact that humans had "reaction" weapons and they didnt.

And then curiosity.

We were behaving strangely by Zentradi standards. They wanted to know why.

But the Macross' main gun was also a bigger proportion of the ship than the Zentradi equivalents we've seen. Likely due to the vessel's intended job. It was designed as a big gun, with an escort to provide defense against lesser threats while it punched holes in the big stuff.

The Zentradi were bigger on an all-in-one design, if the ASS-1 is indicative of Supervision Army ship design as a whole.

Zentradi take a big gun, then make sure they have enough smaller weapons and mecha deployment facilities that they're more than capable of fending for themselves if they're cut off from support.

And personally, I find the Macross cannon's power level pretty inconsistent. Episode 1 it rips through a mountain, an ocean, a large chunk of planetary atmosphere, and still has enough power in it to obliterate a ship with it's backwash, as well as running totally through the primary target, which indicates a massive amount of wasted power. At least double what was needed to gut the thing. Once you get through the armor it's like throwing matches into a paper doll house, as the Daedalus attack demonstrates so effectively.

In episode 36 it lacks enough kick to do much more than deflect a single larger ship.

It's possible, even likely, that it was fired on a sort of overload setting in episode 1, especially given the serious disruption to ship's systems that occured later.

Or that it wasn't in very good shape in episode 36, most likely from repairs that humanity hadn't had the time or resources to make after the final showdown with Bodol.

Or even a combination of the 2.

Also plausible is Kamjin was inside the weapon's designed minimum firing range, so he didn't take the full brunt of the blast. It was by far the closest ship they'd ever tried to shoot down that way.

Or they just didn't have time to focus, which would have a similar effect.

These possibilties don't count if it comes out of the cannon fully focused, and the beam edges remain parallel or (more likely) diverge for it's entire travel.

I know it's an odd concept for a weapon, but it bears examining.

Unlike projectiles, energy weaponry has to be focused, and if the focal point was farther out than the ship they were firing at, effectiveness would be greatly diminished.

Real world example is the diffrence between shotgun pellets and shotgun slugs. The pellets are essentially unfocused(focal point is the tip of the barrel, and they spread out rapidly from there), they hit a wide area but do minimal damage. The slug is a focused weapon, it hits a small area but has a lot more power behind it.

I'm not the person running around saying that they shoulda just unloaded the main gun into Bodol's ship and called it a day, but I think it's a bit more powerful than it's being given credit for here.

It probably could've screwed Britai's ship up pretty good if they'd ever had a chance to fire on it. I'd even bet that's likely what the design goal was, a weapon capable of rapidly disabling(not vaporizing) the larger vessels. Escort fleet runs it in to reliable hit range, where it unloads on the biggest ship, rendering the command vessel useless and throwing the fleet into chaos.

Edited March 5, 2005 by JB0

[AlphaHX]

I was just watching Macross Zero again... couple scenes here and there and it got me wondering... has anyone ever ejected out of a Valkyrie?

In the beginning I see people ejecting left and right out of the F-14 and the Mig but later on, even when Nora shot down that one guy, he tried to land it and Nora killed him... and then Shin tried to pilot the VF-0 and got owned.

I'm pretty sure most if not all Valks have ejection capability since they have face curtains and even in Macross Plus, the General told Guld to bail when he lost control of the 21. I'm also starting to wonder why all those pilots who piloted the 19 didnt bail instead of crashing and dying.

So could anyone care to shed some light on this? Why dont people eject out of Valks?

Edited March 6, 2005 by AlphaHX

[MilSpec]

Don't forget, Hikaru ejected in SDF Macross episode 16, Kung Fu Dandy.

[HWR MKII]

I think the whole not ejecting thing goes into the drama of war. kind of like all the time in action movies that a good guy had the bad guy in his sights and didnt fire or why the bad guy has to say some long winded crap. Just shoot the crack head and get on with it.

Not ejecting allows the director to show us the loss of life in the events taking place and keeps the viewer in suspense as to what will happen to the character. Until now how many of us were wanting those guys to eject? Noone i think because the character was still in a semi functional, armed valk and could fight back.

But getting technical now maybe the pilot who got shot down was so new and dazed that he thought he could land and get away for a time then leave later in the VF0A. Also think of how suddenly alot of the deaths in the air were. Did Kakizaki have time to think about ejecting? or the Noobs in the 0As . Im amazed that Hikaru had time to think of ejecting in that episode considering the amount of missiles coming at him and how quickly they were moving.

[azrael]

maybe the pilot who got shot down was so new and dazed that he thought he could land and get away for a time then leave later in the VF0A.

Any landing you can walk away from.....

After landing, that 0A pilot looked somewhat disoriented (probably due to the landing) as he was walking away. By the time he shook it off, he was already being shot at by Nora.

I'm pretty sure most if not all Valks have ejection capability since they have face curtains and even in Macross Plus

The YF/VF-19 does not use a face curtain. Neither does the YF-21/VF-22, the VF-17, or the VF-1. Most use the middle handle. The only ones we've seen with face curtains are the VF-11 and VF-0.

So could anyone care to shed some light on this? Why dont people eject out of Valks?

Obviously, you haven't seen M7. Cuz there the people in there know how to eject.

Im amazed that Hikaru had time to think of ejecting in that episode considering the amount of missiles coming at him and how quickly they were moving.

The good part was, the missiles were't targeting him. The bad part was, he was in their path and got clipped by a missile. Most likely, Hikaru lost control and the rest is history.

[AlphaHX]

The YF/VF-19 does not use a face curtain. Neither does the YF-21/VF-22, the VF-17, or the VF-1. Most use the middle handle. The only ones we've seen with face curtains are the VF-11 and VF-0.

Isamu launched the back seat in the end and the General asked Guld to eject. Point I was making is that they still have ejection capabilities. I dont see why how that answers the main question but okay. Sure. Thanx... I guess.

Obviously, you haven't seen M7. Cuz there the people in there know how to eject.

I saw bits here and there but true, not enuf to say I saw M7. It just wasnt for me. I guess the thing that is making me curious is that the pilots in Mac Zero should be new to piloting the Valks, just as how Shin was. Wouldnt it be more logical to them to eject out when they get hit? I think HWR MKII might be right and its just for dramatic reasons. I dont see much of a logical explanation for this.

Oh well, I was hoping for more of a logical reason but from the looks of it, there isnt one. Thanx anyways guys.

One more thing... I take it you cant eject from Battroid mode?

Hmm... maybe they are train to take care of their Valk instead of injecting from it just cuz if they get hit in Battroid mode, they wont be able to do too much about it. Maybe? Hmm... oh well. Theres just some things that wont have a concrete answer.

Edited March 7, 2005 by AlphaHX

[AlphaHX]

The YF/VF-19 does not use a face curtain.

Oh, and yeah... even tho in some pictures the 19 doesnt have it. In this one it does...

[hellohikaru]

That cockpit shot is most like of the VF-11B he was piloting in the earlier part of the show when Guld lost control of the YF-21.

[hellohikaru]

What exactly is this thing for ?

I even notice it on the cars(of macross city) and the jump suits of Hikaru and Misa.