Your opinion, if Kawamori were to redesign..

[twich]

Well, if I recall correctly, Both the YF-21 and the YF-19 used their shields to deflect, as both had Pin Point Barriers. I would not consider either Guld or Isamu as lame ass noobs....Also, the YF-21 used its arm lasers quite well to destroy quite a few of those unmanned planes in Macross Plus. I dont think there would be a heating problem, as almost all valkyrie incorporate lasers, and a number of valkyries do incorporate lasers as its primary weapon.

I agree, the VF-4 was much more awesome looking then the VF-11 is/was. It incorporated laser weapons on the arms, in fact, this was the first valkrie to incorporate it.

I think Macross has gunpods for the "coolness" factor. I agree that they are great and offer rapid fire capabilities and also something to be used as a melee weapon given.

While I like Macross the way it is, I just think, for a practicality stand point, that lasers instead of gunpods should become the predominant weapons system.

twich

[wolfx]

I was told that the gunpod doesn't need to be inside the fastpacks on the yf21?

Cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I thought someone may have used a portable fold booster and the weapons were magically there.

Aha! That's a great idea for the ultimate valk!

Portable Fold Booster.....so they can materialise weapons that shouldn't bbe able to fit during transformation!

Then they can just fold in the Gunpod Gamma whenever they need to blast a cap ship...some how that reminds me of IronMan/War Machine materialising that big plasma cannon from nowhere for one of its Super moves.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I dont think there would be a heating problem, as almost all valkyrie incorporate lasers, and a number of valkyries do incorporate lasers as its primary weapon.

Well think of the limits of energy based weapons like with the sdf'1's inability to use the main cannon if it uses the pinpoint barrier or full barrier? Or if it DOES use the Full barrier, it can't just abuse this feature and have the barrier on forever. Kamjin successfully kept sapping the barrier until it caused an barrier overload.

I sorta wish that idea came into play with valkyries too, where there was some limiting factor that penalises you into terms of power if the pilot overuses something. The gunpods could come into play as a "more reliable trusty" weapon that won't limit how much damage you do or sap some power from the mech each time. By having both gunpod and laser weapons you get the best of both worlds. Didn't the little head lasers overheat in SDF:Macross? Nothing should be perfect.

Kind of like how they portrayed the advantages/disadvantages of energy based alien weapons and human weapons in the game halo. In that, the aliens relied on energy weapons that had limited power based on how much "shots" the little battery could store, but ALSO if you kept up the shooting constantly, the weapon could overheat and leave you vulnerable. There was no reliable inbuilt cooling system to the weapon which meant you were hamstrung in how you wanted to fight.

Now imagine if the laser overheated in times when a Qrau launches its micromissiles at you from different directions and you needed to dodge them all? A wrist laser can't help you, a shield with PPB can't cover the whole body. So the next logical choice would be to shoot them all down with a gunpod, or haul ass instead of staying there. Or a combination of the two. This hauling ass method relies on speed and accleration which depends on if you are willing to shed some weight in exchange for lessened firepower. The Qrau has superior maneuverability to pods for example and half the battle is avoiding and dodging as well as shooting. Watching this happen is more exciting than two mechs standing still and blowing the crap out of each to see who blows up the quickest. (obviosly the guy with less and smaller guns or the one without the shield Maneuverability, speed and piloting ability has to play as the most important factor that determines survival else we could rely on cannon fodders to not get blown up in every scene. Some by a single shot )

I'm not saying laser wrist guns should be useless but that everything needs to have some kind of limit. ie if Roy fires the double beam cannon and misses, he shouldn't be allowed to just follow up indefinately with more shots in rapid succession without some penalty similar to how each fire of the main gun of the sdf1 saps energy and needs time to recharge. Perhaps the slower rate-of-fire of the double beam cannon leaves him vulnerable long enough to allow the target to escape, that say a lighter, more simple ammo-based weapon would have shot down by then? When a fast moving target is hard to keep in your sights, it would be useful to have a constant uninterrupted stream of bullets to have a good chance of hitting it, which a more traditional weapon may offer.(with no overheating, recharging or sapping of the mechs own power)

Keep in mind that in macross plus, Guld could just fly right through the micromissiles because of sheer speed! If a slower valk did not have this choice to just fly somewhere else and buy some time by just plain increasing the distance between you and the missiles, things may be different. Take for example you are trying to keep you sights on the x9 ghost which you are barely able to keep speed with, and it keeps darting in different directions. Having a machine gun could increase chances of hitting it because really there is no worry about the rate of fire being too slow, or laser overheating, or anyhing like that. Having lasers could complement the gunpod but I would say that the gunpod/s have better chance of nailing it.

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Graham]

And IIRC, Max's VF-22 in Mac7 didn't have any fastpacks but was able to "materialise" a gunpod in battroid mode. And oh yeah...it can fold without fold boosters....

Err....have you watched Macross 7? Check out these screen shots from ep # 44 which clearly show a Fold Booster on Max's VF-22S.

And the VF-22 has different leg bay cover panels than the YF-21. Each leg bay cover panel on the VF-22 has the gunpod stored internally as well as a pair of micro missile launchers and a bay for a reaction missile. Yes, you have to suspend belief a little to imagine that all that stuff could fit into the panel .

Graham

[Graham]

Well I think having little wrist guns is soo cool. I don't know why but it has something to do with the idea of holding TWO guns in it's hands like some kinda cowboy, and STILL having extra weapons in its body. The lessened weight of 2 small gunpods would proably allow for some old western gunfighting showdown shootout where the mech with the quicker draw wins.

Unfortunately in real life trying to shoot two guns at once just means you end up not hitting anything. It may look cool in John Woo movies, but it's a really shitty gun fighting technique in real life.

Graham

[wolfx]

I apologise graham. I recalled wrong. Its been awhile.

Yea i Kinda remmebered the reaction mission coming out of the leg bays (flaps) in fighter mode of the VF-22.

So the next cool thing would be portable fold boosters which don't die after one usage, and able to fold in big guns when needed.

I can so see it that the next valk would be something out of Zone Of The Enders...where they can fold everywhere on the map and kill things fast and disappear to the other side almost immediately...kinda makes you think of dragonball z fights.

OT: Btw, can the VF-17 fire the gunpod in fighter mode? I think i saw an ep where Gamlin fired a machine gun fron under his right wing, where his gunpod might've been.

Edited March 25, 2005 by wolfx

[Graham]

The only thing that bugs me about the YF-21/VF-22 is it doesn't have a gun in fighter mode unless it has its fastpacks.

That is incorrect. I also used to think that the the YF-21 could only have guns if it had FAST packs.

However, take a look at the pic below from page 88 of the Macross Design Works book, which clearly shows the YF-21 without FAST Packs, but with the two gunpods semi-recessed into the leg bay cover panels.

The Hasegawa 1/72 scale YF-21 model kit and the Doyusha 1/144 scale die-cast YF-21 toy are also set up like this with two gunpods semi-recessed into the leg bay cover panels.

Also, if you watch episode # 2 of Macross Plus OVA carefully, during the weapons testing, there is a shot of the underside of the YF-21 in fighter mode, where you can see the gunpods attached without FAST Packs.

Graham

[Zentrandude]

you forgot conventional countermeasures like chaffs/flares that is there but not animated that much. the thing about energy based weapons is not about over heating its having a moving platform thats fast enough and sensors accurate enough and a computer powerful enough to process that the laser beam can stay on the missile long enough to disable it.

[Graham]

OT: Btw, can the VF-17 fire the gunpod in fighter mode? I think i saw an ep where Gamlin fired a machine gun fron under his right wing, where his gunpod might've been.

Yes, the gunpod can be fired from inside the VF-17's leg in fighter mode.

Graham

[wolfx]

The only thing that bugs me about the YF-21/VF-22 is it doesn't have a gun in fighter mode unless it has its fastpacks.

That is incorrect. I also used to think that the the YF-21 could only have guns if it had FAST packs.

I BLAME YAMATO!!!

[Graham]

The only thing that bugs me about the YF-21/VF-22 is it doesn't have a gun in fighter mode unless it has its fastpacks.

That is incorrect. I also used to think that the the YF-21 could only have guns if it had FAST packs.

I BLAME YAMATO!!!

To be fair to Yamato, the based their YF-21 toy onepisode # 1 of Macross Plus,where the YF-21 was not armed with the two gunpods.

Graham

[JB0]

I know we sort of had this discussion before, but I think it is kinda lame that the primary weapon system on every valkyrie should not be a laser system like the VF-17 and the YF-21/VF-22 and the VAB-2...having 2 primary cannons with infinite ammo located on each hand, or having a shield one the left arm and a laser gun on the right arm would be the way to go. No more gunpods, no more needed ammo. Just laser weapons and missles.

Twich

My bet...

Armor evolves alongside weapons. The Zentradi use beam weaponry very heavily.

It stands to reason their armor is focused towards deflection of energy weaponry moreso than projectiles.

Hence we built our mechs to use projectiles, because our experience said they worked better.

[JB0]

Well I think having little wrist guns is soo cool. I don't know why but it has something to do with the idea of holding TWO guns in it's hands like some kinda cowboy, and STILL having extra weapons in its body. The lessened weight of 2 small gunpods would proably allow for some old western gunfighting showdown shootout where the mech with the quicker draw wins.

Unfortunately in real life trying to shoot two guns at once just means you end up not hitting anything. It may look cool in John Woo movies, but it's a really shitty gun fighting technique in real life.

Graham

But computers aren't restricted like that.

Heck, you could designate 2 targets to the comp and blast 'em both at once, as long as they were both in your arms' movement arcs. Assuming it auto-aims instead of requiring you to manually place the shot(I'd expect auto-aim).

Or, more practically, blow missiles away with one while wailing away at the launcher with the other.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Unfortunately in real life trying to shoot two guns at once just means you end up not hitting anything. It may look cool in John Woo movies, but it's a really shitty gun fighting technique in real life.

Ah but that's the beauty of anime right? Things are possible when you are the "hero" of the story and not the average soldier who can't beat the odds. Witness Milia's "arms praying" technique where she clamps together both her claws together to get double the shots on a single target in DYRL.

Or max's ability to just fly up point blank to an enemy (OMG!!11 He's a genuis!!1)just to finish off the enemy in style by shooting them in the face because they were too slow to get him from afar. You never saw as much cool stuff like this in macross 7 mech fights I've noticed. Some of the flashiness was taken out (save for the rare occasion when max+milia were kicking butt) which is why I thought the mech battles weren't exciting in this. (there were some good ones in the ova and bonus stuff I think though)

While the cannon fodders struggle just to shoot an enemy from afar here you have the "hero" doing stuff that looks easy that nobody else can do, making the mech fight exciting.

I think that guld could just tell the computer with his brain, initiate "the john woo manuever" and the arms would line up side by side to finish off a stupid enemy that thought it would be a good idea to fly close.

We can rationalise all we want what would work in real life (like the use ofthe giant knife of a gunpod?) but some mechs weren't designed for the average pilot and have to stand out. I can totally imagine some good destroid pilots using both arms to shoot down pods rather than only using one. Just keep the two arms fixed at exact level with each other, and use the "turret hips" to finish off ground targets.

If you are fighting on the ground as a mech, you have two feet planted to the ground meaning there is some kind of stability that you wouldn't get in space. A glaug with both arms fixed at it's side with legs fixed in its booster acts just like a ship with two guns on its body.

Heck, you could designate 2 targets to the comp and blast 'em both at once, as long as they were both in your arms' movement arcs.

Maybe they took the eyeball targeting technology from macross zero (remember how roy could shoot down the minimissiles so easy?) and evolved it in future?

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Druna Skass]

Someone mentioned that having the full barrier overload would be a disadvantage. It could actualy be an advantage if you're outnumbered. Just engage the barrier, fly out into the middle of an enemy formation and ram things or let them hit you to the point the barrier overloads and starts expanding.

Someone also asked what good an arm mounted shotgun would be in fighter mode. It would be about as useful as the Sturmvogel's arm guns are in fighter mode. I'm thinking it's spread would make it a useful defensive weapon against incomming missiles though. Since it doesn't fire all that fast overheating wouldn't be a concern. Also since this shotgun would be mech sized, instead of using buckshot, it could be loaded with bomblets giving it a spread and blast radius

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah but in the real world that would be like if every nation that went to war was allowed to use nuclear bombs to fight with... We could easily make ourselves extinct by blowing up this planet and making it unlivable if we wanted to, but is it worth it? The established super powers wouldn't allow for it.

I get the feeling that the un spacy has to be careful in relying on WMD for political reasons.. Maybe hippies like Kaifun would start mass protests to have them banned altogether if there wasn't some sort of strict control over who can use them and and when and for what reason they should be used. (the protodevlin were obviously one of the bloody good reasons much to basara's dismay)

with regards to the shotty, again I say it would be boring. How much fun was it watching destroids standing completely still duking it out versus, watching lightly armed and amored valks dodge and weave through masses of missiles ala mac+?

If you transform into fighter you could just shake them, or do what roy did with his gunpod which covers both short range AND long range with a single weapon but without the penatly of crappy rate of fire (lasers which shoot out in short pulses instead of a stream of continueous fire, and pulses that happen to be spaced too far apart in timing to catch several small, weakly-amored-but-fast targets) or cover too short a distance because shotguns were mainly effective upclose only. What you need are good "general purpose", multi-use weapons for any situation.

And damage for a shotgun wouldn't be that nice as a main weapon would it? I thought shotguns did poorly against armored vehicles? You may need bullets that penetrate the armor, or explosives that blow armour completely off doncha?

And distance is important. Fighters move quickly and shooting other fighters moving around is probably much easier if your main weapon was a machine gun. If you start specialising you lose abilities in other areas, (like mech to mech fights) and to me the valk is multitask machine that is mass produced to be good in as many roles as possible rather than too specialised. ie weapons that might be good for one task but suck for many other tasks.

I think all the limits of the sdf should apply to the valks. I was just playing macross plus arcade and was wondering what it would be like if valks had a big-ass SDF1 beam weapon like what happens when you transform into gerwalk mode in that game. If you had a weapon like that, that could melt through anything it would make every other weapon obsolete.. (they actually weakened it in macross plus, but in the DYRL arcade game it's the best for killing most bosses.)

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[VT 1010]

Ok, my first post on this board. I'll try not to make myself look like an idiot.

Anyway,

If my facts are wrong, please correct me. I'm going off of memory...

Concerning the use of traditional kinetic energy weapons over beam and laser weapons:

First off, for those of you who don't know, there is a difference between an energy beam and a laser. An energy beam is a beam of plasma. Plasma is a collection of charged particles containing an equal amount of ions and electrons. Basically pure energy. Obviously, being hit by this would be quite damaging.

You can, however, control plasma with magnetics. With this, overheating isn't as much of a problem with a beam weapon (infact, the barrel shouldn't even be that warm at all). But that means if you have a magnetic barrier, a plasma beam isn't much of a threat to you.

The beam sabers in Mobile Suit Gundam act on this principle. Notice when the two beams meet, they don't go through each other. The beam is surrounded by a magnetic field. This prevents it from acting like a beam rifle and where it just keeps going and going. The magnetic field is what also allows the beam sabers to cross and not go through each other. If they're magnets, how come the beam sabers don't stick to each other? That's because the magnetic fields have the same polarity, so they repel each other.

My point is that if you have mecha equiped with the right magnetic field or coating (like the PPB), that makes beam weapons not very effective.

A laser is basically a really narrow beam of light. If strong enough, you get an effect similar to what happens with a magnifing glass under the sun. They vary in strength, but aren't always as fast acting as most people think.

The U.S. military is working on a laser system that will intercept and destroy flying artillery shells. However, it still takes several seconds to destroy the shell. It's hard enough to get one shot in, but having to hold the laser on an enemy is a lot more difficult.

Also, since a laser is pretty much light, it can be reflected or refracted with a mirror or something highly reflective.

Lasers and plasma need a source of energy in order to work. And energy, atleast with today's technology, is finite. Batteries won't last forever. So although lasers and plasma won't run out of of ammo, they will run out of energy. They will need be to recharged, have spare batteries, or have an alternate energy source. They won't last forever. The discussion of which of the three is more efficiant with ammo/energy is a seperate issue.

This now brings us to kinetic energy weapons or projectile weapons (guns). The basic idea of hitting a target with an object. Simple physics (I won't go into detail about it since I've talked enough). The only real way to stop the projectile is with strong hard armor, a field of energy, or absorbing the impact with soft armor (like a kevlar vest). An enemy mech probably won't have the an energy field capability and soft armor is a little difficult to equip on a mech. That leaves us with hard armor. Hard armor isn't much of a problem with armor piercing ammunition. In the show, you see a GU-11 tear through a regult like nothing.

My conclusion:

It is probably best to have a kinetic energy weapon as the main weapon. It has a better chance of damaging the enemy mech. The beam and laser weapon system would be better used as supplemental armaments.

At least thats my $0.02.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

[twich]

Nice first post...Welcome!

My only rebuttal would be that the valkyrie has 2 thermo-nuclear engines, thus, as long as it has fuel, you have a limitless supply of energy for the beam weapons to use.

Twich

[azrael]

Good post from the n00b. don't worry, you'll make an idiot our of yourself later. We've all done it.

Maybe they took the eyeball targeting technology from macross zero (remember how roy could shoot down the minimissiles so easy?) and evolved it in future

Actually, I would say they replaced it in the VF-1 with a computer-aided target/tracking system. Remember, the eye-movement scanner is a manual system. Imagine targetting dozens of missiles with that thing and if you miss one or 2 missiles. That's 1 or 2 too many.

Someone mentioned that having the full barrier overload would be a disadvantage. It could actualy be an advantage if you're outnumbered. Just engage the barrier, fly out into the middle of an enemy formation and ram things or let them hit you to the point the barrier overloads and starts expanding.

IIRC, the barrier system as well overloaded with the barrier. That would be a problem.

I was just playing macross plus arcade and was wondering what it would be like if valks had a big-ass SDF1 beam weapon like what happens when you transform into gerwalk mode in that game.

Unfortunately, that would drain the power generator. You'll be vunerable while you recharge.

My only rebuttal would be that the valkyrie has 2 thermo-nuclear engines, thus, as long as it has fuel, you have a limitless supply of energy for the beam weapons to use.

That's still finite energy, my boy.

...

My point is that if you have mecha equiped with the right magnetic field or coating (like the PPB), that makes beam weapons not very effective.

...

Also, since a laser is pretty much light, it can be reflected or refracted with a mirror or something highly reflective.

Yep. Star Trek uses deflector shields and ablative armor. Gundam SEED uses anti-beam coatings and anti-beam depth charges. In the case of the anti-beam coating/depth charges and ablative armor, the material, when hit by the energy weapon reflects or absorbs (i.e. disintegrated) some of that energy, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the shot. As nice as energy weapons are, they still aren't as effective as kinetic weapons.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Good posts. I can now understand why the gundams use those beam shields and stuff. All that antibeam coating must modify the effiectiveness of the weapons. I wonder why macross doesn't have beam sabers? I think it would make a lot of sense if they somehow took whatever they learnt from the pinpoint barrier punch/deadalus maneuver and somehow made it pointy. There are a few valks in macross design works with swords . Whats up with that??

With regards to physical shields though, I'm still not convinced it would be as lifesaving as just dodging fire or just seeking cover. Yes it is true that we see them being used in macross plus to deflect fire, but everything has limits. I doubt you could keep it up with several attackers firing at you at once, plus any missiles to keep you busy. The PPB can't be on all parts of the body at once. Transforming into fighter and herding them into a neat line would seem more safe. Max dodging and weaving through them and Gulds sheer speed (to outfly them)suggest that speed and agility are still the a top priority when it comes down to it.

I'd also like to add one other advantage to having 2 small gunpods over 1 long one:

In fighter mode you may be able to inflict twice as much damage in the same time it might take with a single gunpod. Maybe given the speed you are going to be moving at, you'll only have half the time to line yourself up to shoot it down before it escapes, meaning that killing it in half the time is required. If you are up against a ghost which keeps darting about, I can imagine that extra stream of fire can only double your chances of killing it.

I always thought that it would be cool for the vf17 to just have 2 gunpods (1 in each leg?) instead of one. And the yf21 just makes the logical step of having 1 on each side.

Edited March 26, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

I wonder why macross doesn't have beam sabers?

It would be called Gundam if it did.....

I think it would make a lot of sense if they somehow took whatever they learnt from the pinpoint barrier punch/deadalus maneuver and somehow made it pointy.

Well we have PPB-punches (M7) and we have bayonets (M+). There isn't much emphasis on close-quarter combat in Macross.

There are a few valks in macross design works with swords. Whats up with that??

Those would become part of Escaflowne. Kawamori drew up those pics of valks with swords for a show he called "Knights in the Sky". That idea eventually evolved to Escaflowne.

I always thought that it would be cool for the vf17 to just have 2 gunpods (1 in each leg?) instead of one. And the yf21 just makes the logical step of having 1 on each side.

Actually, if you think about it, the times we don't see the YF-21 with the gunpods, it's flying underweight. Most of the time, we see the YF-19 with the gunpod, yet often enough, we see the YF-21 without it....makes me wonder about the YF-21 at that time.

[Zentrandude]

this thread is becomming the why valks don't have beam sabre thread.

[nathan]

Well, in what context are we speaking of? if you put a massively powerful radar on an F-4 and somehow get it to carry a phoenix missile, sure it can shoot down most near anything in the sky, but does that mean it's a better plan than an f-22?

Also, if you look at the stuff isamu pulls off with a yf-19, and the moves that the sv-51 pulls off, there's just no comparison.. the sv-51 doesn't have anywhere near the flight capabilities of the yf-19.. the sv-51 seems much more like a suped up modern day plane while the newer valks seem to be near pure fantasy in how nimble they are and how quickly they respond.

To a large extent, it is the age of the fighter. No matter what you stick on it or in it, you're still using an airframe with outdated aerodynamics and materials technology. Even if you can get the same performance out of it by massive upgrades, it's usually cheaper to produce more of the new version. Upgrades are designed to extend the operational life of a machine, but only as long as it makes economic sense to do so.

Can the F-22 carry a Phoenix Missle?

Older fighters with modern avionics would be equal to, nearly equal too, or better than many modern fighters in use now. Compare the F-4 and the F-18. The F-4 has almost three times the range and is faster and has nearly the same weapons payload as the F-18. The only thing the F-18 has going for it is modern avionics. Put the same avionics and cockpit technology into the F-4 and the F-4 would kick the F-18's ass.

And aerodynamics haven't changed. There are many older fighters with better aerodynamics than modern ones. The only reason they're not used is because they're old. Look at the F-15. It was designed in the 60's and flew in the 70's. That makes it a 40 year old design and it's aerodynamics and manueverability are still equal to modern fighters. What isn't is the Avionics which is why new models have been produced and older models upgraded. Those upgrades are what keep the F-15 ahead of other fighters.

IF you need further proof that just because it's old doesn'tmeen it's obsolete look to the B-52.

So how does all of this relate to the SV-51 and the Vf-19? It meens that a SV-51 properly upgraded and with a very skilled pilot could possibly go up against the VF-19 and survive.

[JB0]

If my facts are wrong, please correct me. I'm going off of memory...

That's what I do best.

Concerning the use of traditional kinetic energy weapons over beam and laser weapons:

First off, for those of you who don't know, there is a difference between an energy beam and a laser.  An energy beam is a beam of plasma.  Plasma is a collection of charged particles containing an equal amount of ions and electrons.  Basically pure energy.  Obviously, being hit by this would be quite damaging. 

Wrong on so many levels.

Energy weapons CAN fire plasma.

Humans in macross prefer lasers, which ARE a valid form of beam weapon..

Other beam weaponry in the Macross universe is undefined. Could be electron beams, proton cannons, anti-neutron rays, etc.

And plasma is NOT pure energy, nor is it charged particles. Heck, your description of it is electrically neutral. Plasma is fire, basically. Highly-energized matter, but otherwise normal.

A flame thrower can be argued to be a low-grade plasma weapon. Part of teh damage from explosives could be argued as plasma weaponry.

How damaging it is depends on how hot it is and how long it touches.

In point of fact, a "pure energy" weapon is undescribable under current physics. The closest you can get is antimatter particle streams.

You can, however, control plasma with magnetics.  With this, overheating isn't as much of a problem with a beam weapon (infact, the barrel shouldn't even be that warm at all).

Assuming the barrel is, aside from ammo, a vacuum, and your plasma isn't radiating infrared, and the energy expended to heat your ammo TO the plasma stage doesn't heat the barrel, and your containment field is 100% effective.

  But that means if you have a magnetic barrier, a plasma beam isn't much of a threat to you. 

Provided it's strong enough, which is harder than it sounds.

The beam sabers in Mobile Suit Gundam act on this principle.  Notice when the two beams meet, they don't go through each other.  The beam is surrounded by a magnetic field.  This prevents it from acting like a beam rifle and where it just keeps going and going.  The magnetic field is what also allows the beam sabers to cross and not go through each other.  If they're magnets, how come the beam sabers don't stick to each other?  That's because the magnetic fields have the same polarity, so they repel each other. 

Actually, they use the fictional minovsky particle. Beam saber "blades" are constructed of a lattice of minovsky particles that is then filled with plasma. No magnets involved.

If they were purely magnetic, they could be forced through each other, BTW.

Also note that dual sabers would become very popular. One of each polarity.

My point is that if you have mecha equiped with the right magnetic field or coating (like the PPB), that makes beam weapons not very effective.

PPB isn't magnetic. We don't think so, anyways. It's undefined tech, based on energy leaking from a spatial rift created by a faulty fold drive.

It also blocks all objects equally. Paintballs, gunpod projectiles(Macross use depleted uranium?), conventional explosives, lasers, zentradi "beams", it makes no diffrence.

A laser is basically a really narrow beam of light. 

Of a specific wavelength.

Lasers and plasma need a source of energy in order to work.  And energy, atleast with today's technology, is finite.  Batteries won't last forever.

Macross uses fusion power, so no biggie.

Though... lasers can be chemically fired. As can plasma weaponry.

  So although lasers and plasma won't run out of of ammo, they will run out of energy.

ALL PLASMA WEAPONRY USES AMMO. IT IS REQUIRED TO MAKE THE PLASMA.

And lasers MAY run out of ammo of they are chemically fired.

They will need be to recharged, have spare batteries, or have an alternate energy source.  They won't last forever. 

Fortunately for Macross, they have miniature fusion drives as a universal electricity/heat source for all mecha components.

This now brings us to kinetic energy weapons or projectile weapons (guns).  The basic idea of hitting a target with an object.  Simple physics (I won't go into detail about it since I've talked enough).  The only real way to stop the projectile is with strong hard armor, a field of energy, or absorbing the impact with soft armor (like a kevlar vest).

Kevlar doesn't absorb the impact. It just disperses it over a wider area. Much like "hard armor" does when it's not being punctured(kevlar can be punctured too, and a thin-enough weapon can actually slip BETWEEN fibers, avoiding the necessity of tearing the vest to generate a puncture wound, and bypassing almost all the protective attributes of the fabric).

Plates actually work BETTER than fabrics. High-grade bulletproof vests have plates imbedded in them to spread the shock, because it is still possible to be killed by a bullet that the kevlar mesh prevents from penetrating. The force is carried through to the body anyways. A normal handgun bullet can bruise someone through kevlar. A high-powered rifle can kill, even without penetrating.

Kevlar doesn't disperse the force enough to prevent damage the way a good plate will, because it gives. A solid plate, the force of impact is distributed across the entire plate, instead of the localized region of a kevlar vest.

On the other hand, a proper suit of medieval-style plate armor is implausible at best. Once it gets thick enough to stop a bullet, it's too heavy to be man-portable. The kevlar, for all it's flexibiltiy, is lightweight. And spreads the impact enough that the plates don't shatter(because the impact on the plate is less focused)

And what sort of energy field? Obviously the undefined energy of a Macross barrier can, but what else?

  An enemy mech probably won't have the an energy field capability

Why not?

and soft armor is a little difficult to equip on a mech.

Not really. "Hard armor" is just more effective.

That leaves us with hard armor.  Hard armor isn't much of a problem with armor piercing ammunition.  In the show, you see a GU-11 tear through a regult like nothing.

Armor-piercing rounds will chew through any conventional defenses you have.

Also note that "armor-piercing" is a very vague term. It can mean a simple discarding sabot round, or an exotic multi-stage shaped-charge device.

[JB0]

Good posts. I can now understand why the gundams use those beam shields and stuff. All that antibeam coating must modify the effiectiveness of the weapons.

Nah. That's all "minovsky physics."

I wonder why macross doesn't have beam sabers?

No practical way to make them.

Or, lacking any major obstacles to long-range weaponry(Gundam claims unstructured minovsky particles interfere with EM radiation, including visible light and adar, making melee combat necessary), they choose to leave melee as an archaic relic of a bygone era.

No I think it would make a lot of sense if they somehow took whatever they learnt from the pinpoint barrier punch/deadalus maneuver and somehow made it pointy.

No evidence they know how to make anything but a disk.

There are a few valks in macross design works with swords  . Whats up with that??

Not clear exactly. Seem to be abandoned designs from a diffrent show concept.

[Guest Bromgrev]

And aerodynamics haven't changed. There are many older fighters with better aerodynamics than modern ones. The only reason they're not used is because they're old.

Better tell the boys at McDonnell Douglas to mothball those wind tunnels ...

[Akilae]

Good posts. I can now understand why the gundams use those beam shields and stuff. All that antibeam coating must modify the effiectiveness of the weapons. I wonder why macross doesn't have beam sabers?

Wait, they DO!! Quick! Somebody post that pic of the VF-1A head and its removeable "light saber"!

[kensei]

Well I think having little wrist guns is soo cool. I don't know why but it has something to do with the idea of holding TWO guns in it's hands like some kinda cowboy, and STILL having extra weapons in its body. The lessened weight of 2 small gunpods would proably allow for some old western gunfighting showdown shootout where the mech with the quicker draw wins.

Unfortunately in real life trying to shoot two guns at once just means you end up not hitting anything. It may look cool in John Woo movies, but it's a really shitty gun fighting technique in real life.

Graham

But you got the targetting systems of the YF-21 to handle that all for you!

[Druna Skass]

Yeah but in the real world that would be like if every nation that went to war was allowed to use nuclear bombs to fight with... We could easily make ourselves extinct by blowing up this planet and making it unlivable if we wanted to, but is it worth it? The established super powers wouldn't allow for it.

I get the feeling that the un spacy has to be careful in relying on WMD for political reasons.. Maybe hippies like Kaifun would start mass protests to have them banned altogether if there wasn't some sort of strict control over who can use them and and when and for what reason they should be used. (the protodevlin were obviously one of the bloody good reasons much to basara's dismay)

with regards to the shotty, again I say it would be boring. How much fun was it watching destroids standing completely still duking it out versus, watching lightly armed and amored valks dodge and weave through masses of missiles ala mac+?

If you transform into fighter you could just shake them, or do what roy did with his gunpod which covers both short range AND long range with a single weapon but without the penatly of crappy rate of fire (lasers which shoot out in short pulses instead of a stream of continueous fire, and pulses that happen to be spaced too far apart in timing to catch several small, weakly-amored-but-fast targets) or cover too short a distance because shotguns were mainly effective upclose only. What you need are good "general purpose", multi-use weapons for any situation.

And damage for a shotgun wouldn't be that nice as a main weapon would it? I thought shotguns did poorly against armored vehicles? You may need bullets that penetrate the armor, or explosives that blow armour completely off doncha?

And distance is important. Fighters move quickly and shooting other fighters moving around is probably much easier if your main weapon was a machine gun. If you start specialising you lose abilities in other areas, (like mech to mech fights) and to me the valk is multitask machine that is mass produced to be good in as many roles as possible rather than too specialised. ie weapons that might be good for one task but suck for many other tasks.

I think all the limits of the sdf should apply to the valks. I was just playing macross plus arcade and was wondering what it would be like if valks had a big-ass SDF1 beam weapon like what happens when you transform into gerwalk mode in that game. If you had a weapon like that, that could melt through anything it would make every other weapon obsolete.. (they actually weakened it in macross plus, but in the DYRL arcade game it's the best for killing most bosses.)

Never though of an overloading sheild as a WMD, more like some kind of improv weapon MacGuyver would come up with. I don't think it's because of people like Kaifun that the UN restricts it's nuke use, but mainly that what ever Zentraedi they run into they'll try to convert or if it's humans they can deal with them with converntional weapons.

I never sugested the shotgun as a primary weapon, hence I called it a defensive weapon mounted on the arm. Something to counter missile swarms. As I also said eariler it's not like some 12 ga, it would be a large mech sized gun, so you could load the shells with bomblets or grenades as opposed to just buckshot. Think of it as a cross between a shotgun and grenade launcher. So yes a mech shotgun I'm thinking of would take out armor quite nicely with it's hail of explosives. When Roy took out those missiles in Zero he had to switch to battroid. Since those missiles were fairly close he could have taken them all out with a couple well placed blasts as opposed to targeting each one individualy.

If we're going to try to put ourselfs into the Macross Univers as oppose to watching it like we do now. I doubt our typical VF-11 pilot could weave though missiles like the 21 and 19 can. Hell Isamu just barely made it though in his 11. If Mr. Cannon Fodder has enough space between a swarm of missiles and those swarms are close togeather he could same himself with a few well placed blasts.

Of course there's the Full Armor who doesn't have the luxury of transforming. If he's not some ace then all he can do is just let the missiles hit him. That giant gunpod the 11 has is a bit unweildly, and it only has one head laser as opposed to two or four, so it might not fire fast enough it hit all of them.

[JB0]

Never though of an overloading sheild as a WMD, more like some kind of improv weapon MacGuyver would come up with. I don't think it's because of people like Kaifun that the UN restricts it's nuke use, but mainly that what ever Zentraedi they run into they'll try to convert or if it's humans they can deal with them with converntional weapons.

I thought it was because nuke is a bad word. Even in space where there's no environment to contaminate.

Regardless of how "clean" the weapon is, the conception is still that nukes make the area a radioactive hotzone for millenia to come and spew masses of fallout into the atmosphere.

So yeah... political reasons. And pretty much the same ones that keep us from using them today(not that we actually have a really good reason to use even the smallest ones currently, aside from some proposed "bunker buster" weapons that WOULD spew fallout like there's no tomorrow).

...

Of course, if it were purely modern-day politics, they'd also have masses of activists up in arms about the fusion powerplants they're using...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I just think that if any other aliens had civilians, you wouldn't want to hurt the enemy civilians, only the soldiers. It would be seen as cruel and cowardly to target the civilians, and all other races of aliens would call you terrorists. You would lose any support from the more friendly civilised breeds and races if news got out that you were using weapons that were cruel. (like say the aliens give birth to deformed babies due to contamination or something) Then an arms race to use these weapons in combat all the time would come with each standing to lose a lot of innocents on either side plus thier environments that feed them.

You would think that the first option of the un spacy would be is to to greet and come in peace first, then if the aliens were hostile (they wanted to exterminate your race) and you had no choice but to use the weapons, then you are pretty blameless if the weapons were as a last resort.

Also I do believe that even soldiers would see certain actions as cruel and unecessary and start to protest. Not just the hippies like Kaifun. I think that if milia was having trouble shooting down her own zentradi grunts, (after she joined us and fought alongside max) she would object to certain uses of weapons and the effects they might have on an alien's civilian population. It would have made sense to use them against a superior foe consisting of billions of giants but still...

In the case of the protodevlin or the first attack against the zentradi (they were all soldiers) maybe aproval was given because it was thier last option? So although the military has all these whizz bang weapons to use, certain ones like the use of an overload, might be classed as wmd which to a lot of humans in government would be seen as unecessary to use when there are other safer methods that don't deliberately have to destroy the environment around you. To me the UN should favor peace and environmentally-aware methods of fighting over ones where the strongest weapons are the ones we should use all the time. (The anti-un do point out thier bad side in macross zero, though)

Even if it is in space, using barrier overloads would be dangerous. Similar to how if you gave the rookie reaction missiles and he accidently let off a reaction missile and kills his friends. If I was in charge I would order only certain people to have access to them. I don't give a poo if we are in space or not! Remember how ben got killed accidently in the tv series? Politics, and also military control purposes. Even the zentradi had thier own control: genetically enhancing thier leaders to be superioer to thier underlings so that things wouldn't get out of control and to keep order.

I never sugested the shotgun as a primary weapon

Yeah I know, but I just think that weapons that are multifunctional for both short range and long range (like a machine gun) would be favored on a valkyrie over ones that do well ONLY for a specialised function. The way I see it most of the time a grunt is going to be relying on his machine gun rather than suplmentary things. Is it wise to weigh him down with extra weapons at the expense of speed? Would every soldier have his own shotgun, his own rocketlauncher, sidearm etc? When you mass produce these machines, is it wise to have everyone use this weapon because now it has become standard as built-into the machine?

The way I think of it: a valkyrie would have only the basic stuff as standard (beams, lasers, gunpod) integrated into the design of the transformable mech, and all these weapons that do poorly as "general purpose/multi-function" weapons (like a shotgun which can't reach the missiles until they are close) would be add-ons.

I would never use the shotgun very often (as opposed to a beam weapon) so why have it integrated into the machine itself when it is only for certain occasions rather than general-use like the trusty gunpod? When these are mass produced everyone will HAVE to use it at the expense of not having a beam in thier wrist which might effect how they would normally fight. (ie waiting for things to get within range of the shotgun rather than having the freedom to shoot everything down as early as possible from as far as you can)

If a valk is too specialised the enemy can exploit the weakness that comes with specialisation too easily. (eg say you replace wrist guns with wrist shotguns, the enemy will fly away and take you out at safe distance. But using beams or relying on the gunpod would mean you just use weapons that are strong at any range over one which is limited to short range.

Edited March 27, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

I just think that if any other aliens had civilians, you wouldn't want to hurt the enemy civilians, only the soldiers.

True. But nuking batlteships in space, or dropping tactical nukes on major military installations(provided they were clean devices), would be an acceptable usage in a society that doesn't view nuke as a dirty word.

It would be seen as cruel and cowardly to target the civilians, and all other races of aliens would call you terrorists.

Depends entirely on the culture. You could be fighting a race that doesn't care if you kill civilians, or even thinks it's a good tactic.

Aliens are, well, alien. They don't think like us.

You would lose any support from the more friendly civilised breeds and races if news got out that you were using weapons that were cruel.

Again, maybe.

(like say the aliens give birth to deformed babies due to contamination or something)

Hypothetically, we could do clean weapons.

Fusion weaponry is far less dirty than fission weaponry by default. And if you can get rid of the fission initiator, and use the right fuel mixture, it's a perfectly clean nuclear weapon.

Then an arms race to use these weapons in combat all the time would come with each standing to lose a lot of innocents on either side plus thier environments that feed them.

Well, in space combat it doesn't much matter HOW you punch a hole in the ship, as much as it does that you holed the ship.

If stuff like the Macross cannon is fair game, fusion weaponry shouldn't be shunned.

Of course, I think the Macross cannon is more powerful than any nuke... that would be a better reason than politics to not use nukes. Don't have to run fighters in or worry about the missile being intercepted, no negative PR, and it's more powerful anyways.

You would think that the first option of the un spacy would be is to to greet and come in peace first, then if the aliens were hostile (they wanted to exterminate your race) and you had no choice but to use the weapons, then you are pretty blameless if the weapons were as a last resort.

True. Very true.

I suspect humanity would view genocide in a very dim light, though, regardless of how it was done.

Also I do believe that even soldiers would see certain actions as cruel and unecessary and start to protest. Not just the hippies like Kaifun. I think that if milia was having trouble shooting down her own zentradi grunts, (after she joined us and fought alongside max) she would object to certain uses of weapons and the effects they might have on an alien's civilian population. It would have made sense to use them against a superior foe consisting of billions of giants but still...

I was thinking more in terms of space combat between fleets, really. Situations where environmental and civilian population impact aren't relevant factors.

In the case of the protodevlin or the first attack against the zentradi (they were all soldiers) maybe aproval was given because it was thier last option?

Or because there was no risk of environmental contamination.

The first strike against the zentradi was in outer space, so contamination wasn't an issue.

And it was kept secret from civilians, so they didn't even have to worry about public relations. Just offending their enemy, who was more impressed than offended.

The final battle of space war 1 was a last-ditch attempt. To heck with public relations, let's unload several thousand nukes into this fool and see what happens. Again, it's space combat, so who cares about the nonexistent environment?

I've not seen all of Macross 7, so I'm not entirely sure how the nukes were used in that situation, though given teh nature of the foe, it may've been a case of "nothing ELSE kills these guys, let's try the nukes before they eat our brains."

So although the military has all these whizz bang weapons to use, certain ones like the use of an overload, might be classed as wmd which to a lot of humans in government would be seen as unecessary to use when there are other safer methods that don't deliberately have to destroy the environment around you. To me the UN should favor peace and environmentally-aware methods of fighting over ones where the strongest weapons are the ones we should use all the time. (The anti-un do point out thier bad side in macross zero, though)

A valid point. But when peace fails, and you're in a situation where there's no environment or civilians to worry about, nuke 'em all and to heck with PR.

Even if it is in space, using barrier overloads would be dangerous. Similar to how if you gave the rookie reaction missiles and he accidently let off a reaction missile and kills his friends.  If I was in charge I would order only certain people to have access to them.

Good point.

I don't give a poo if we are in space or not! Remember how ben got killed accidently in the tv series?

ACK! RAW-BOOT-ECK NAME! ACK!

Kakizaki got killed in an atmosphere. And it wasn't exactly a planned overload.

...

I wonder how well the blast would travel in space anyways. We've never seen, likely never will. I'm sad now.

Politics, and also military control purposes. Even the zentradi had thier own control: genetically enhancing thier leaders to be superioer to thier underlings so that things wouldn't get out of control and to keep order.

Another good point.

Doubly so if you have to get the arming codes from headquarters instead of the ship's captain carrying them.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Damn did I say ben? *smacks himself*

[VT 1010]

If my facts are wrong, please correct me.  I'm going off of memory...

That's what I do best.

Concerning the use of traditional kinetic energy weapons over beam and laser weapons:

First off, for those of you who don't know, there is a difference between an energy beam and a laser.  An energy beam is a beam of plasma.  Plasma is a collection of charged particles containing an equal amount of ions and electrons.  Basically pure energy.  Obviously, being hit by this would be quite damaging. 

Wrong on so many levels.

Energy weapons CAN fire plasma.

Humans in macross prefer lasers, which ARE a valid form of beam weapon..

Other beam weaponry in the Macross universe is undefined. Could be electron beams, proton cannons, anti-neutron rays, etc.

And plasma is NOT pure energy, nor is it charged particles. Heck, your description of it is electrically neutral. Plasma is fire, basically. Highly-energized matter, but otherwise normal.

A flame thrower can be argued to be a low-grade plasma weapon. Part of teh damage from explosives could be argued as plasma weaponry.

How damaging it is depends on how hot it is and how long it touches.

In point of fact, a "pure energy" weapon is undescribable under current physics. The closest you can get is antimatter particle streams.

You can, however, control plasma with magnetics.  With this, overheating isn't as much of a problem with a beam weapon (infact, the barrel shouldn't even be that warm at all).

Assuming the barrel is, aside from ammo, a vacuum, and your plasma isn't radiating infrared, and the energy expended to heat your ammo TO the plasma stage doesn't heat the barrel, and your containment field is 100% effective.

  But that means if you have a magnetic barrier, a plasma beam isn't much of a threat to you. 

Provided it's strong enough, which is harder than it sounds.

The beam sabers in Mobile Suit Gundam act on this principle.  Notice when the two beams meet, they don't go through each other.  The beam is surrounded by a magnetic field.  This prevents it from acting like a beam rifle and where it just keeps going and going.  The magnetic field is what also allows the beam sabers to cross and not go through each other.  If they're magnets, how come the beam sabers don't stick to each other?  That's because the magnetic fields have the same polarity, so they repel each other. 

Actually, they use the fictional minovsky particle. Beam saber "blades" are constructed of a lattice of minovsky particles that is then filled with plasma. No magnets involved.

If they were purely magnetic, they could be forced through each other, BTW.

Also note that dual sabers would become very popular. One of each polarity.

My point is that if you have mecha equiped with the right magnetic field or coating (like the PPB), that makes beam weapons not very effective.

PPB isn't magnetic. We don't think so, anyways. It's undefined tech, based on energy leaking from a spatial rift created by a faulty fold drive.

It also blocks all objects equally. Paintballs, gunpod projectiles(Macross use depleted uranium?), conventional explosives, lasers, zentradi "beams", it makes no diffrence.

A laser is basically a really narrow beam of light. 

Of a specific wavelength.

Lasers and plasma need a source of energy in order to work.  And energy, atleast with today's technology, is finite.  Batteries won't last forever.

Macross uses fusion power, so no biggie.

Though... lasers can be chemically fired. As can plasma weaponry.

  So although lasers and plasma won't run out of of ammo, they will run out of energy.

ALL PLASMA WEAPONRY USES AMMO. IT IS REQUIRED TO MAKE THE PLASMA.

And lasers MAY run out of ammo of they are chemically fired.

They will need be to recharged, have spare batteries, or have an alternate energy source.  They won't last forever. 

Fortunately for Macross, they have miniature fusion drives as a universal electricity/heat source for all mecha components.

This now brings us to kinetic energy weapons or projectile weapons (guns).  The basic idea of hitting a target with an object.  Simple physics (I won't go into detail about it since I've talked enough).  The only real way to stop the projectile is with strong hard armor, a field of energy, or absorbing the impact with soft armor (like a kevlar vest).

Kevlar doesn't absorb the impact. It just disperses it over a wider area. Much like "hard armor" does when it's not being punctured(kevlar can be punctured too, and a thin-enough weapon can actually slip BETWEEN fibers, avoiding the necessity of tearing the vest to generate a puncture wound, and bypassing almost all the protective attributes of the fabric).

Plates actually work BETTER than fabrics. High-grade bulletproof vests have plates imbedded in them to spread the shock, because it is still possible to be killed by a bullet that the kevlar mesh prevents from penetrating. The force is carried through to the body anyways. A normal handgun bullet can bruise someone through kevlar. A high-powered rifle can kill, even without penetrating.

Kevlar doesn't disperse the force enough to prevent damage the way a good plate will, because it gives. A solid plate, the force of impact is distributed across the entire plate, instead of the localized region of a kevlar vest.

On the other hand, a proper suit of medieval-style plate armor is implausible at best. Once it gets thick enough to stop a bullet, it's too heavy to be man-portable. The kevlar, for all it's flexibiltiy, is lightweight. And spreads the impact enough that the plates don't shatter(because the impact on the plate is less focused)

And what sort of energy field? Obviously the undefined energy of a Macross barrier can, but what else?

  An enemy mech probably won't have the an energy field capability

Why not?

and soft armor is a little difficult to equip on a mech.

Not really. "Hard armor" is just more effective.

That leaves us with hard armor.  Hard armor isn't much of a problem with armor piercing ammunition.  In the show, you see a GU-11 tear through a regult like nothing.

Armor-piercing rounds will chew through any conventional defenses you have.

Also note that "armor-piercing" is a very vague term. It can mean a simple discarding sabot round, or an exotic multi-stage shaped-charge device.

Sorry about my discription of plasma (and almost everything else). I was mostly going off of fragmented memory. I apologize for my ignorance.

However,

For the beam sabers, I was going of the picture on page 11 of the Gundam Instruction manual (not to be confused with the Construction manual), that comes with the Perfect Grade RX-78-2 model. It's the picture with the saber that says (in English) I field and under it Magnetic field (with lines pointing in the appropriate places). I'd post a picture, but my scanner won't work and I really don't feel like digging the digital camera out (if you want, I can though). I guess that means magnetics ARE invloved, but they may not be in the way I descirbed. Since the details are in Japanese and I only know very little (still learning it), I can't read any of the details.

BTW, where did you get the info on the beam saber. Not that I'm skeptical of the source or anything, I was just wondering. Is there a Gundam site like the Macross Compendium?

There are a couple of other smaller issues in your comments about my post, but I don't think they really matter or anything. At least not right now.

I thought I knew what I was talking about, but I guess I didn't. Looks like I've already made myself look like an idiot. My first impression happened to be one of stupidity.

[JB0]

Sorry about my discription of plasma (and almost everything else). I was mostly going off of fragmented memory. I apologize for my ignorance.

No big deal.

However,

For the beam sabers, I was going of the picture on page 11 of the Gundam Instruction manual (not to be confused with the Construction manual), that comes with the Perfect Grade RX-78-2 model.  It's the picture with the saber that says (in English) I field and under it Magnetic field (with lines pointing in the appropriate places).  I'd post a picture, but my scanner won't work and I really don't feel like digging the digital camera out (if you want, I can though).  I guess that means magnetics ARE invloved, but they may not be in the way I descirbed.  Since the details are in Japanese and I only know very little (still learning it), I can't read any of the details. 

Never heard about magnetic fields being involved before. The I-field is the minovsky particle lattice, for the record.

BTW, where did you get the info on the beam saber.  Not that I'm skeptical of the source or anything, I was just wondering.  Is there a Gundam site like the Macross Compendium?

Only one I know of went down a few years ago.

I thought I knew what I was talking about, but I guess I didn't.  Looks like I've already made myself look like an idiot.  My first impression happened to be one of stupidity.

To be fair, it was actually very intelligent and well thought out. It was just wrong.

You didn't come in crying about how the japanese ripped off Robotech or anything like that. That puts you above far too many people immediatly.