Your opinion, if Kawamori were to redesign..

[twich]

The SV-51 to incorporate Nuclear Fusion engines comporable to that of the VF-19S along with arm lasers like the YF-21 and pin-point barrier system like the YF-21...do you think that it would be comporable to AVF like the VF-19/VF-22S?

I think that if given a Modern Macross revamp, this plane could very well be a force to be reckoned with in the Macross Universe. I think with its maneuverability, 3-D Thrust Vectoring it could really be a awesome mech.

I dont know, color me weird, but I really like the design of the SV-51 and think that it could be something that could be carried to any era of Macross.

What do you think.

Twich

[Druna Skass]

do you think that it would be comporable to AVF like the VF-19/VF-22S?

No, you can upgrade an F-4 Phantom all you want but that thing ain't going to be taking on a YF-23 on equal terms.

[Desram]

I don't think the F4 is a very usefuil comparison...

[Druna Skass]

Well the F-4 was designed in what, the 60's and the YF-23 around the mid 90's? About a 30 year gap. The SV-51 was designed in the early 2000's and the YF-19 around 2040. The time gap between the existance of those sets of planes is similar.

Point is you can upgrade the crap out of an older plane, but it's not takeing on a plane desgined 30 or 40 years later on even terms.

[Zentrandude]

sv-51 was design after the yf-19 in real life.

[Desram]

But the F4 is old, fat and busted. The sv-51 is all sleek and maneuverable. I think that it might be a little TOO good for the era. I think the macross zero valks should have sucked a bit more than the do.

[JB0]

But the F4 is old, fat and busted. The sv-51 is all sleek and maneuverable. I think that it might be a little TOO good for the era. I think the macross zero valks should have sucked a bit more than the do.

The SV-51 is a scrawny girlie-man valk that would snap in 2 under the stresses of a more modern valk's performance.

[twich]

I tend to disagree...while it does look a little thin, it doesnt look any more or less scrawny than some of the valkyries of present day Macross...also take into consideration that the SV-51 is 22+ meters long, so things tend to look a little thin in comparison. I guess that it is all a matter of personal opinion.

Twich

[nathan]

It's not so much the age of the fighter but the age of the avionics. Many 60s/70s era fighters are being upgraded with new avionics and they're just as capable of shooting down a modern fighter as any built in the 90s. In fact some fighters with upgraded avionics are probably superior than modern fighters. The US just has the opinion that newer is better but that always isn't the case. A good pilot is also better than a rookie or a poorly trained pilot.

As to the SV-51 with VF-19 engines,,,maybe but I think it would need signifigant upgrades first. Who could be who in a fight? That would probably either be the better pilot or the luckier pilot.

[eugimon]

Well, in what context are we speaking of? if you put a massively powerful radar on an F-4 and somehow get it to carry a phoenix missile, sure it can shoot down most near anything in the sky, but does that mean it's a better plan than an f-22?

Also, if you look at the stuff isamu pulls off with a yf-19, and the moves that the sv-51 pulls off, there's just no comparison.. the sv-51 doesn't have anywhere near the flight capabilities of the yf-19.. the sv-51 seems much more like a suped up modern day plane while the newer valks seem to be near pure fantasy in how nimble they are and how quickly they respond.

[Druna Skass]

Also, if you look at the stuff isamu pulls off with a yf-19, and the moves that the sv-51 pulls off, there's just no comparison.. the sv-51 doesn't have anywhere near the flight capabilities of the yf-19.. the sv-51 seems much more like a suped up modern day plane while the newer valks seem to be near pure fantasy in how nimble they are and how quickly they respond.

Or if you're going to compare the SV-51 to the VF-22S, look at how Guld dodged those missiles.

You know what, someone needs to drag David Hintegen into this thread...

Edited March 22, 2005 by Druna Skass

[Guest Bromgrev]

It's not so much the age of the fighter but the age of the avionics. Many 60s/70s era fighters are being upgraded with new avionics and they're just as capable of shooting down a modern fighter as any built in the 90s.

To a large extent, it is the age of the fighter. No matter what you stick on it or in it, you're still using an airframe with outdated aerodynamics and materials technology. Even if you can get the same performance out of it by massive upgrades, it's usually cheaper to produce more of the new version. Upgrades are designed to extend the operational life of a machine, but only as long as it makes economic sense to do so.

[Lightning]

dont bash the F4.....it's a nice fast airplane....

[Radd]

I just really don't think this thread poses a question that can be answered with an opinion. Also, keep in mind the difference in animation techniques, and target audience. Of course in the OVA Itano, Kawamori, and company are going to try and outdo themselves to impress the fans. It's the nature of the medium. Still, these variable fighters are not meant to be more advanced than those we see in future shows, and it's not simply the engines they're packing. By the time you upgraded an SV-51 to be a match for a YF-19 or 21, you'd pretty much have nothing left of the SV-51 in technology or design.

[Prime]

In order for the SV-51 to be comparible with the YF-19 and that ilk it would have to be completely redesigned and constructed from scratch. New airframe, engines, systems would be required. A lot was learned in the 40 years between the two. The YF-19 and 21 have that incorporated into their design. The SV-21 does not.

Hell, those two fighters are much more advanced than even the VF-11.

[KingNor]

think about it logically.

the valks from Mzero were replaced by the SDF valks, then there is mac+ then mac7 (7 is further along in the timeline right?)

expecting to be able to upgrade a first gen maybe even prototype fighter to compete with a 5th or 6th gen top of the line fighter is pretty out of the question.

I think part of the problem with this topic is that how "modified/upgraded" can you upgrade a plane before it fails to be the original plane anymore...

its like how they call those top fuel dragsters "cameros, gto's" and the like.. they are completely purpose build cars with only the likeness of road cars scupted into a fiberglass shell.. you can' really say a camero can run the quarter mile in like 7 seconds because one of these dragsters can.

same with the fightrs, how much can you change on it before it stops being what it started out as?

[Lightning]

...its like how they call those top fuel dragsters "cameros, gto's" and the like.. they are completely purpose build cars with only the likeness of road cars scupted into a fiberglass shell.. you can' really say a camero can run the quarter mile in like 7 seconds because one of these dragsters can.

same with the fightrs, how much can you change on it before it stops being what it started out as?

Likeness....?....oh! you mean all those stickers on the front! NASCAR's suffering from that sickness right now...

[JB0]

think about it logically.

the valks from Mzero were replaced by the SDF valks, then there is mac+ then mac7 (7 is further along in the timeline right?)

Mac7 is sightly ahead in the timeline. They start building VF-19s and VF-22s onship during the series. Cannon fodder all flies teh VF-11, which is still their primary plane.

[Shadow Skull]

Some how I get the feeling that you would have to redesign parts of the SV-51 airframe in order to add in the type of engine used in the VF-19, the arm lasers and the PPB system. Of course further modifications to the airframe just to make sure it can fly.

IMO, I don't think an SV-51 with those modification would stand a chance against the VF-19 or the VF-22 because both of the fighters have other features that make them far more advanced than the SV-51.

[twich]

I think that you would be correct, to retrofit the SV-51 would make it into something that isnt the SV-51. I guess that I have to concede that the ultimate in planes is going to be the VF-19 and the VF-22, hands down.

Twich

[Gammera]

two words Hyper Carbon..... Anti Un forces probably don't have any!!!

[Guest Bromgrev]

I guess that I have to concede that the ultimate in planes is going to be the VF-19 and the VF-22, hands down.

The VF-19 and the VF-22? Surely you mean the VF-22 only - hands 'down'

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

General Galaxy > Shinsei

Guld Superior in design ability to Yang Neuman even though he looks like the space marine grunt in the fps game Doom.

[Graham]

Note, Guld was only part of the design team of the YF-21, not the main designer.

The Macross Compendium has the following to say about this matter: -

Guld Goa Bowman was a designer (and pilot) on the YF-21 Project Team, while Algus Selzer was the head of the entire design team.

Graham

[Guest Bromgrev]

Still, the YF-19 was much prettier ...

[JB0]

Still, the YF-19 was much prettier ...

Sure, in fighter mode.

But the YF-21 battroid kicks it's butt with 12 diffrent vitamins and minerals.

[Prime]

Still, the YF-19 was much prettier ...

Isn't that in the end what really matters?

[Radd]

Still, the YF-19 was much prettier ... 

Sure, in fighter mode.

But the YF-21 battroid kicks it's butt with 12 diffrent vitamins and minerals.

Well, basically it's a variable Q-Rau, what's not to love?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well I think having little wrist guns is soo cool. I don't know why but it has something to do with the idea of holding TWO guns in it's hands like some kinda cowboy, and STILL having extra weapons in its body. The lessened weight of 2 small gunpods would proably allow for some old western gunfighting showdown shootout where the mech with the quicker draw wins.

Guld, the pussy was probably just holding back in the street fight thanks to all the pills he was taking to supress his zentradi berserker instinct. I fully hoped he could have gave the yf19 a flying pinpoint barrier uppercut to its chest, followed by a wrist blast in the punctured hole its punch just made to kill the pilot inside, similar to what milia did in DYRL to that zentradi or the deadalus manuever.

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[twich]

I know we sort of had this discussion before, but I think it is kinda lame that the primary weapon system on every valkyrie should not be a laser system like the VF-17 and the YF-21/VF-22 and the VAB-2...having 2 primary cannons with infinite ammo located on each hand, or having a shield one the left arm and a laser gun on the right arm would be the way to go. No more gunpods, no more needed ammo. Just laser weapons and missles.

Twich

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well maybe they overheat or something and might not be reliable in times of many small targets that need to be shot down with rapid fire.

think of a Qrau that just released all its mini missiles, and all of them are closing in simulataneously from many different angles. If you don't have the skill or time to dodge them all, and your wrist guns will overheat too much if you over heat them with too much use as a main weapon, a gunpod with spread fire could be your saving grace. (the logic being that multiple rapid shots may increase the chance of hiting a smaller or fast target, as opposed to a one big heavy attack)

I always liked the idea that a mech with a gatling gun could just spin around 360 and wipe out small targets with ease. (the intro of sdf:macross kind shows that. The little explosions when the rounds hit the missiles, makes a nice fireworks display. )

I also think that if hikaru did not have a gatling gun instead of a "beam weapon that pulses", in his fight against incoming missiles (this was the episode where he gets his arms blown off) he may not have taken down as many targets (probably groups of little homing micromissiles) as easily. There is probably this pattern that when the elite soldiers want to kill something they just get up close and release the missiles as soon as they can, then wipe out whatever survives that, with beam blasts.

I also like the idea that there are cooler designs and crappier ones alongside them to make the cooler ones shine more.

or having a shield

Maybe shields are heavy? The arm armour on vf1 could be thought of as an early design shield. In boxing when you block an opponents punchs you tend to put your forearms together like a shield. I always thought that those arm armours on the "super vf1" forearms act like a shield when the mech tries to protect itself.

But when you see pilots dodging shots with agility and grace, you kind of question the need for them. A fast ghost fighter (like macross plus) might be a threat since it might be able to outmanuever a slower mech, but how helpful was the shield to those cannon fodders in macross 7? They were getting blown away too easily that it probably made little difference. I would think that pilots that favour long range fights with accurate aim and fast speed allowing them more an "offensive" style to combat, would look down on the need for shields, and cowardly cannon fodders would need them so they added it to the vf11 as a failsafe.

If you think of it as a "safety in numbers" idea, several of the mass produced cheap regults with barely any protection would probably be more effective than a few battroids with shields as protection like a line of riot police whose purpose is to just guard an area.

I think of zentradi as being more the offensive style, and the humans being more the defensive. It's a question of "do you want to guard something (like a zone or an area where you won't be moving much?), or do you want to attack and raid with as many people carrying guns (increase damage) as possible? the zents probably like killing and raiding than defending (boring) so they probably have the attitude of foregoing sheilds and protective features in exchange for more firepower given that their lives are expendable and there is so many of them.

The destroid with lots of guns guns guns, is probably so that the humans have as many options as possible in choose how to deal with giants. But because they don't have much speed, they get thier asses kicked meaning all that expense on increased firepower for nothing. The agility and flexibility of valks to move and haul ass from one place to another through transformation is probably what saved them.

there's also the psychological idea of the shield. It may suggest you are cowardly and a crap pilot: you expect to be hit and need to hide when you can dodge or seek cover. (the grunts foot soldiers at the start of DYRL (the scene with the singing minmei doll) have these big tower shields but as you can see they are scared when milia attacks. They need armour because they are probably crap pilots. Speed would probably only make much differnece if the person could handle it and control it, and tame it. I doubt all pilots could withstand the speeds at which some of the aces pilot thier mechs when they do thier fancy manuevers so the crap guys get the slower, more armoured design. ...Or.. they just don't get anything because; being expendable, go by the "safety in numbers" idea: just have lots of the cannon fodders with weapons.

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Druna Skass]

What about some sort of arm mounted anti-micromissile shotgun as a secondary weapon.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well it might affect the transformation and speed in fighter if you give it too many weapons. If they are going to fly around most of the time they want to be the fastest and lightest bird to outfly anything.

Just one really good general purpose gunpod (or 2 small ones) complemented with built in beam weapons (or external ones like strike vf1) could be more effective.

I say that the reason they were lightly armored has to do with money and time, as in the tv series, the fast packs were not really ready yet and more of an upgrade. People were flying around without a speed boost.

If you are fast enough and good enough to not get hit, the need to carry so much just complicates the design of "the machine that does everything, rather than specialises in only a few things". The shields on the yf21 at least were part of the fighter design itself so it had defence without too much penalty. (two sheilds but not necesarily serving a major purpose for battroid) The 19 and 11 didn't look like they were reliant on the shields a lot of the time so I guess having them didn't make as much difference such that including them were going to be lifesaving. People would still get killed in a few hits such that maneuvering becomes more important than protecting parts of the body. (why else would dyson hide first and then gut the mech with the knife? because I think its safer to just seek cover using speed than standing there with a shield)

You'll note that the vf17 hides the gunpod in its body and uses it for fighter too. That would be very useful if you were flying at high speed trying to shoot down a target that is constantyl avoiding your sights. But what use would a shotgun have in fighter mode? You might have trouble getting in enough hits to do any damaged? Plus I imagine needing to get close. Bullets are faster than shells in that instance. In variable mechs, you would want a good general purpose weapon that could suit any situation.

Edited March 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[wolfx]

The only thing that bugs me about the YF-21/VF-22 is it doesn't have a gun in fighter mode unless it has its fastpacks.

And IIRC, Max's VF-22 in Mac7 didn't have any fastpacks but was able to "materialise" a gunpod in battroid mode. And oh yeah...it can fold without fold boosters....

I would think a great valk would be one which fuses zent and human technology...very much like the 21/22. Energy weapons would have to come from the Zents as it seems they have alot of beam based weaponry compared to the humans who were still projectile based except for their head mounted anti-air lasers.

The Zents would also be more advanced in terms of space-faring/space combat technology...so a newer valk would should have have those features.

The perfect valk? Actually it has got to be the VF-4, given a full-body-barrier (no puny PPB shields). I'm not sure how they degraded from the VF-4 to the VF-11. The VF-4 was far superior to those down the line before the 19 and 21 IMHO.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I was told that the gunpod doesn't need to be inside the fastpacks on the yf21?

Cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I thought someone may have used a portable fold booster and the weapons were magically there.