THIS saved the human race?!

[EXO]

But back on topic:

I guess it wasn't just a song that saved the human race

it was effort and openmindedness (heh,.. the Irony in that statement) coming

from all sides

And guns. Lots of guns.

[Fortress_Maximus]

C'mon, you guys, stop talking about the song. I've spent 15 years trying to ignore it and concentrate on the death and destruction and the cool mecha.

But the other stuff is an integral part of the show. Macross without singing and insane love triangles is... Gundam.

Indeed it is and without thankfully without the damn pretty boys too.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Fortress_Maximus

[Jemstone]

Well, this topic spawned a lot of serious responses that I SHOULD have expected (never anger the Macross Gurus ) , but to argue against Britney because she is manufactured tripe, and saying that Minmay is not is hypocracy.

I am a bit shocked. Reminds me when I used to see topics like "Who's better? Britany Spears or Lynn Minmay?" back in the early days of RT.com. Personally, I think they shouldn't be compared because it's apples and oranges for the most part. Pop music versus classical music? That's too broad a subjective topic.

I will admit I'm not crazy about some of the comments made in this thread either (do I have to point them out) but I wish you guys would stop thinking of women as "alien" to Macross overall. I don't see how anybody would find DYRL 'sexist and ridiculous'.

[Jasonc]

Say for shizzles and giggles that it was a Britney Spears song... What song would be equivalent? Slave? Hit me Baby one more time? See, this is what I get for having a sister.

Now, if they did play Twisted Sister, or Metallica, or whatever, I think they would've thought of it as a distorted channel, but would've worked more for the U.N. pilots. I would be pretty amped hearing that and would want to destroy everything.

[Keith]

Last time I checked, pot shots weren't argument killers, they were just destractions. My argument lies in the material itself, again, there is no debate.

[Hurin]

Last time I checked, pot shots weren't argument killers, they were just destractions. My argument lies in the material itself, again, there is no debate.

So far, there's really been no argument to "kill." Just your assertions that you're right, and that we aren't allowed to doubt your wisdom.

But, if your argument "lies in the material itself". . . please kindly point out where it lies and, more importantly, why it defies any other interpretation.

That's how you, ya know, back up your arguments. Just stating that your views are beyond reproach is just bluster intended to cover up a total lack of evidence.

For the record: I doubt anyone would have any problem with your opinion at all except for the fact that you stated it as religious dogma that is beyond question. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You can have yours. Just don't try to assert that yours is the only valid one on the topic. Especially when you are totally unwilling to back it up.

H

[EXO]

Well said...

[Macross Forever]

Say for shizzles and giggles that it was a Britney Spears song... What song would be equivalent? Slave? Hit me Baby one more time? See, this is what I get for having a sister.

Now, if they did play Twisted Sister, or Metallica, or whatever, I think they would've thought of it as a distorted channel, but would've worked more for the U.N. pilots. I would be pretty amped hearing that and would want to destroy everything.

I think the genre would be similar, but as far as individual songs are concerned, I think "My boyfriend is a pilot" would have to go with "Baby one more time". Not because the lyrics are similar, but because it kept getting played over, over, over and over again, just like when "Baby" first came out. It was catchy at first, but after a while you begin to want to throw a boot at Minmei's head when the intro to that song starts to play again. But then they played it again in M+, and it was good and nostalgic...

[Guest Bromgrev]

It was catchy at first, but after a while you begin to want to throw a boot at Minmei's head when the intro to that song starts to play again.  But then they played it again in M+, and it was good and nostalgic...

Ah, so true - it's amazing what nostalgia can do for your musical tastebuds

[Nightbat]

Last time I checked, pot shots weren't argument killers, they were just destractions. My argument lies in the material itself

"Potshots"???

again, there is no debate.

You're just making it TOO easy

Keith you're turning into a parody, all you have is a conviction with nothing to

back it up

Your argument is empty, the facts given about the material that don't work

with/show flaws in your beliefs are simply dismissed, then like you own it, consider the discussion closed

To you the earth is flat, even after we show it to you from the moon

[Druna Skass]

Last time I checked, pot shots weren't argument killers, they were just destractions. My argument lies in the material itself, again, there is no debate.

Here let me give you some advice when it comes to argueing keith. I'm on my way to becomming law student and had a defense attoney role back in my high school's mock trial team so I think I know a little about arguing.

Opinions do not equal facts. You can have all the convicion in the world and be willing to go to Hell and back for it, but not matter what, unless you produce evidence it will remain an opinion.

When making an arguement the burden of proof is on you. In this case, you've failed to prove how it's not the listener but the singer that makes a song what it is. You're argueing that with a song, it is not in the eye (ear) of the beholder, but how much emotion a singer puts into it that makes it what it is. You've so far failed to prove that.

When you use a statement like "there is no need to debate" you better make d@mn sure that you're argument is airtight because if it's not it just makes you look, well stupid. You're argument is not air tight, moving on...

Finnaly above all UNLESS KAWAMORI HAS SAT DOWN WITH YOU AND EXPLAINED HIS GRAND VISION TO YOU, YOU ONLY HAVE OPINION AND INTERPRETATIONS TO GO BY. YOURS ARE NO BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE'S. NOT EVERYONE WILL ACCEPT MACROSS THE SAME WAY YOU WILL, THAT IS FACT. LEARN TO ACCEPT IT.

And finnaly.

STOP ACTING SO SELF RIGHTIOUS. IT'S A D@MN TV SHOW, A CARTOON, FOR F*$%'S SAKE. YOU'RE TAKING IT WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

Edited March 22, 2005 by Druna Skass

[EXO]

Keith, before you go on about how this thread is useless and people shouldn't bother arguing... just remember it's a place for discussion about certain topics. The discussion was interesting. It's not a place where we can bow down to your incredibly swollen big head. It's suppose to be fun.

[Hurin]

What I can't figure out is this:

If all emotion comes from the artist singing rather than from the words themselves and/or the listener instilling those words with meaning. . . what's the deal with poetry?!?

An example:

And did they get you to trade

your heroes for ghosts?

Hot ashes for trees?

Hot air for a cool breeze?

Cold comfort for change?

And did you exchange

a walk-on part in the war

for a lead-role in a cage?

Why do these words move me? Even when I read them in my own voice rather than the voice of Pink Floyd?

Song is just poetry set to music and melody. . . but if (as Keith asserts) emotion is only present in it because of the singer. . . what is the point of poetry?

I don't think Keith can answer that. But, of course, he's so self-evidently right that he doesn't have to!

H

[Sundown]

I think it's a big reach to apply Mac 7-isms and philosophy to real life, as if it really were the way things actually worked-- when Mac 7-isms are just again one particular creator's musings about culture, emotion, and creation as we know it.

Trying to make Mac 7 itself "real" by supposing that emotions themselves are some quantifiable medium-- and that music and poetry's influence on others is directly due to emotional energies injected to it by its creator-- just doesn't match up well with how things seem to work in real life.

Yes, there is a correlation between an artist putting his soul into something, and his audience being moved by the outpouring of his being. But it's not direct. Someone who just goes through the motions can often move others if the performance and content of a creative work just happens to resonate with them. Ie. most pop music. And conversely, someone who bears his soul in song might be totally unbearable to most others, because of thier lack of musicianship or because their style just doesn't speak to them.

One is affected by a song partly due to the artist's craft, partly due to a listener's own tendencies to find meaning in it, as well as the artist's ability to express, and sometimes even the artist's ability to fake it.

I find it ironic that ideas presented in Mac 7 are being hailed as how things actually work, and being used to define "real" music from the soul versus commercially crafted fluff-- when Mac 7's own J-pop really falls into the same category as Britney Spears. It's sugary pop music crafted to evoke simple emotions, push an image and sell merchandise. Sure, it's not focused on sexual titilation, but then again, Mylene and all her fan service was put there for a reason. One wonders if Mac 7's music production would actually have been vilified by the fictional character it's attributed to, because it really sounds like the usual stuff from yet another commercially crafted, formulaic J-pop band. Not to mention that no real Basara exists.

-Al

Edited March 23, 2005 by Sundown

[JB0]

Trying to make Mac 7 itself "real" by supposing that emotions themselves are some quantifiable medium-- and that music and poetry's influence on others is directly due to emotional energies injected to it by its creator-- just doesn't match up well with how things seem to work in real life.

Dang. And here I was practicing my musical skills so I could fend off the protodeviln.

You crushed my dreams just now. Are you happy?

I find it ironic that ideas presented in Mac 7 are being hailed as how things actually work, and being used to define "real" music from the soul versus commercially crafted fluff-- when Mac 7's own J-pop really falls into the same category as Britney Spears.  It's sugary pop music crafted to evoke simple emotions, push an image and sell merchandise.  Sure, it's not focused on sexual titilation, but then again, Mylene and all her fan service was put there for a reason.  One wonders if Mac 7's music production would actually have been vilified by the fictional character it's attributed to, because it really sounds like the usual stuff from yet another commercially crafted, formulaic J-pop band.  Not to mention that no real Basara exists.

Odd. I was thinking roughly the same thing earlier.

Not in regards to this debate, but just in regards to how the show was done.

Fire Bomber is scripted as some sort of "grass-roots" band that's all about the music, writes their own songs, ignores their agent's advice, and performs live with no computervoice modulation to keep them on key. But in reality they're as manufactured as everyone else, if not more so(what with being a bunch of cartoon characters overlayed on top of a manufactured band... the mind reels at the strange mobius strip logic here).

Tangentally related... I chuckle whenever someone in that show starts singing solo, and all of a sudden there's a full band and backup singers.

[Sundown]

Odd. I was thinking roughly the same thing earlier.

Not in regards to this debate, but just in regards to how the show was done.

Yeah. Even odder that this hadn't occured to me until just now.

Fire Bomber and its music is in reality the antithesis of everything Basara and Mac 7 preach--

Formulaic, commercialized pop music for a tv show for the purpose of improving ratings, selling cds, and moving toys. Backed by underage fan service. Fronted by a lead idol that's as "fabricated" as they come-- who sure doesn't write his own songs. Oh sweet, delicious irony.

Dang. And here I was practicing my musical skills so I could fend off the protodeviln.

You crushed my dreams just now. Are you happy?

That's not the first time I've heard that this week. Dare to dream. Really. Just dare also to be whacked over the head with the paddle of Reality as we all point and laugh.

-Al

[JB0]

Dang. And here I was practicing my musical skills so I could fend off the protodeviln.

You crushed my dreams just now. Are you happy?

That's not the first time I've heard that this week. Dare to dream. Really. Just dare also to be whacked over the head with the paddle of Reality as we all point and laugh.

-Al

YAY!

*resumes building custom VF-19*

[Keith]

Last time I checked, pot shots weren't argument killers, they were just destractions. My argument lies in the material itself

"Potshots"???

again, there is no debate.

You're just making it TOO easy

Keith you're turning into a parody, all you have is a conviction with nothing to

back it up

Your argument is empty, the facts given about the material that don't work

with/show flaws in your beliefs are simply dismissed, then like you own it, consider the discussion closed

To you the earth is flat, even after we show it to you from the moon

Actually, I've just taken to playing by your tactics, as none of you seem to care to back up any of your rebutals, so why should I waste my time. Either watch the show, or don't, but arguing what's in there doesn't make you right, just as claiming I'm wrong doesn't make me so.

[Guest Bromgrev]

Never let it be said that manufactured pop does not inflame passions!

[Hurin]

as none of you seem to care to back up any of your rebutals

Uh, I've given you Kawamori's own words as recorded on the Animeigo DVDs. You don't want to address those. But they "back up" what we're saying. Further, I've asked you to reconcile how your view conflicts with how most people view and enjoy poetry. Again, you fail to address this.

Either watch the show, or don't

Which show are we talking about now? SDF Macross or Macross 7? You claimed that all of Macross follows your view (and that this is so blindingly obvious that we dare not question it). I've seen SDF Macross more than once. And I still disagree with you. So, apparently, just "watching the show" isn't quite enough to brainwash me around to your point of view.

just as claiming I'm wrong doesn't make me so

Well, go figure. Claiming your'e wrong doesn't make you wrong. But, ironically, you claiming you're simply right doesn't make you so either.

Actually, I had no idea that you were getting your views on music directly from Macross 7. I figured it had influenced you. But, now, I'm reading that your view of emotion coming from the singer only is actually something directly espoused by M7. All, I can say is: Wow. Dude, it's a show. And Kawamori is now a tree-hugging hippy. Get some perspective before buying into an anime director's views on music so whole-heartedly.

Again, you can believe what you want. But don't go around saying that your view is so blindingly obvious that nobody can/should disagree with you. And please don't simply dismiss inconvenient rebuttals and contrary evidence. Doing so only makes you look even more out-of-touch with reality.

H

P.S. BTW, the only reason I'm feeling compelled to keep this going is that you dismissed what I wrote as being "not backed up". . . if you want to ignore it, then ignore it. But don't dismiss it so condescendingly.

Edited March 23, 2005 by Hurin

[Nightbat]

Actually, I've just taken to playing by your tactics, as none of you seem to care to back up any of your rebutals, so why should I waste my time. Either watch the show, or don't, but arguing what's in there doesn't make you right, just as claiming I'm wrong doesn't make me so.

If you were playing by our tactics you sure would have a more informed argument

and wouldn't consider a discussion closed "Coz u Say So!"

Not care to back up?

I back up my opinions with proof, facts, observation and logical thinking.

I may not be an authority on Macross SDF, but at least I bothered to look at more

than one aspect of the show

You don't need official statements for that, just you own eyes, ears and an

objective mind

any argument you make is reduced to "merely an opinion" with simple

examples. because you have no proof to back it up,

yet you just yap that your views are absolute and unquestionable like some

self-proclaimed prophet

I'm not claiming you're wrong, I'm proving you wrong

Not because I don't want you to be right, but that's just the result of the argument

Don't misunderstand me Keith, few MW-ers are as well informed about the story

and writing-philosophy of M7 as you, but this isn't M7

You don't have to be an expert to see M-SDF/DYRL? and M7 are very different

shows

And if you're not here to discuss a show,.. what the hell are you here for?

[Macross Forever]

I'm a mathematician, which kinda falls in line with being a philosopher. Keith, what everyone is saying is completely right; you need proof to back up your statements, or they become simply opinions, nothing more. I started this thread to have some discussion over a funny statment, not to start some argument as you have. But dude, if you feel the need to argue, at least do it correctly. If you don't, then people will begin to disregard your opinions, even when they are valid.

[Hurin]

LOL! Keith has a habit of just asserting his opinion as an immutable fact. I've seen him doing it for as long as I can remember. But I've never really run afoul of him before because I couldn't give two sh**s about M7. But, for fun, I ran a search on "debate" and "Keith". . . hoping to find him saying: "This is not a topic for debate" about fifty times. It turned up a lot of gems.

But this one is my favorite. This is from the man himself:

In an argument, there is a right & a wrong. If you can not accept this, then don't argue. At the same time, don't cry when others who understand the nature of a debate follow such nature. On the internate, just as in the real world, no one is going to hold your hand telling you that you can be right just because you want to be. Having an opinion & believing in it does not make the nature of that opinion correct, nor does it make you immune to being wrong. If you believe something, prove the conviction of your beliefs in the face of those who dissagree with you. Or go back to kindergarden & cry to your teacher.

Emphasis mine.

[Nightbat]

The funny thing is: he's right with the rest of that comment in that thread

(though the Macross continuity part is debatable, but that's a difference in opinion )

[Druna Skass]

Actually, I've just taken to playing by your tactics, as none of you seem to care to back up any of your rebutals, so why should I waste my time. Either watch the show, or don't, but arguing what's in there doesn't make you right, just as claiming I'm wrong doesn't make me so.

So then, would you care to share with us the details of your interview with Kawamori where he explained in great detail what the meaning and the main points of the Macross story are? Oh that's right, you never have sat down with him for such as disscussion, so how can you say your points are infallable?

I've backed up my rebuttals that your arguments hold only your own interpreteations and opinions, because you do not know what is going on in Kawamori's head. If you don't know what is going on in the creator's mind, then all you can do is make assumptions based on what ever interpretations you get from his work of art. Those interpretations are opinions. Think of Macross as a work of abstract art, the only really "correct" view is that of the person who created it.

Yeah, buddy I've watched the show, more times that I can count. Point out the part where your points are validated and proven as an undebatable fact, then I'll shut up.

I swear, you're like some Macross 7 version of those people who think the Force is real. I would pay money to see you try to use some kind of spirita attack on some gangsta thugs in the process of jumping someone.

[Dachande16]

Hey, Britneys singing ain't that bad ... I like her as much as Kylie Minogue, U2, Bond, Twisted Sister, Meatloaf, Clannad, Mark Knopfler etc

I always thought that there were also subliminals involved ...

Thought I'd add my bit

[Guest Bromgrev]

Yeah, I like her about as much as Kylie, too ... i.e. not!

[Sundown]

Just more food for thought...

Good argumentation does not necessarily turn "opinion" into "fact".

And opinions still require evidence and backing to remain valid and coherent as sound opinions. Without such, these opinions become nothing more than baseless assertions.

Opinions that have been argued coherently are valuable, even in a discussion where fact cannot be arrived at with absolute certainty-- Ie. in discussions on politics, religion and philosophy.

-Al

[MjrMisaHayase]

I like 'Ai Oboetai Masuka' a lot, but she's right!  It's a pop song, and the analogy is a frighteningly true one, lol.

Well, they sorta acknowledge this at the end where Misa admits that it was simply a "pop song" about love. Nobody ever claimed that they had discovered a masterpiece by the Protoculture's Mozart.

Also, if you had never heard any music before. . . and had no concept of any culture, I would think that any music would be shocking. Possibly even Ashly Simpson.

H

It's Ashlee, to be exact.

[ewilen]

Hurin, where's the Kawamori interview you've been talking about where he talks about the songs? Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Ishiguro interview?

Nice posts, Sundown. The same critique applies to nearly all pop music from the last 40 years or so. Sometime around 1965, people began to obsess over "authenticity", with an emphasis on writing your own songs and one-upping other performers over who could be more "genuine" and who was a phoney. When really, all performers are phoneys, so just enjoy the act.

[Prime]

In an argument, there is a right & a wrong. [/b]

I feel much better knowing that there is only one correct way to look at everything in the world...

[Hurin]

Hurin, where's the Kawamori interview you've been talking about where he talks about the songs? Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Ishiguro interview?

Yes, you're correct, it's Ishiguro.

H

[Bloodcat]

Id rather go to war listening to Gwar thanks. Good and violent. ANGRY MUSIC that happens to be incredibly amusing.

Sublime's "Smoke Two Joints" song would be pretty cool too. Especially if every Valk came with a roach clip connected to the HUD. Every pothead I have ever met seem to be technical geniuses and extremely relaxed. Hell, just go to the man himself and throw some Bob Marley on. Less stressful combat means better battlefield effectiveness.

Till they all try to land at once and get some Cheetos anyhow..