Macross Zero

[Jemstone]

I can´t believe people can´t accept floating rocks in Macross Zero , which is explained clearly as an effect to the AFOS presence and alongside no one critics the TV series for floating objects when the SDF-1 folds to space...that´s a seriously bias

I agree with eveything you said except the above tidbit. Floating rocks on earth can't be compared to the floating rocks in outer space. Just all around example because of you can suspend belief in since it's sort of based on the weightlessness in space altho being purely science fiction. The other you do have to be more willing to accept a technology beyond our own understanding. Some people just aren't willing to suspend any belief at all.

[Eaglearcher]

The floating rock, bit deal.

She and her sister got telekinesis and etc... so what?

It's in the gene. Still see it as strictly sci-fi

[Zentrandude]

both have telepathic powers but mao being younger can only contact shin after the blood transfusion from the blood of afos's body while sara can communicate with afos and ask request subconsciously like make rocks float around, fire intense grav beam to peel ships like a banna, also see in the future and later (not sure what to call it) etheral body projection from where ever she went.

Edited April 6, 2005 by Zentrandude

[Aegis!]

I can´t believe people can´t accept floating rocks in Macross Zero , which is explained clearly as an effect to the AFOS presence and alongside  no one critics the TV series for floating objects when the SDF-1 folds to space...that´s a seriously bias

I agree with eveything you said except the above tidbit. Floating rocks on earth can't be compared to the floating rocks in outer space. Just all around example because of you can suspend belief in since it's sort of based on the weightlessness in space altho being purely science fiction. The other you do have to be more willing to accept a technology beyond our own understanding. Some people just aren't willing to suspend any belief at all.

No , I was actually refering to the first fold made by the SDF-1 ON EARTH , look closely while it folds and you´ll see objects floating around the buble formed by the SDF-1 , that´s an effect of the fold produced by the SDF-1´s engines , just the same as it is seen in Macross Zero while the APHOS takes control of the Azuka´s engines and makes everything float. ( the azuka didn´t float like the SDF-1 but the APHOS did , and it used the Azuka´s engine to gather enough power to make everything float)

now , you could say how could sara make rocks float at the shrine , right ? ever noticed only the marked rocks floated around while nothing else did ? if she indeed had some kind of powers ( which I don´t think so) she could´ve made everything float , starting with water and vegetation around her , nut no , only the MARKED rocks floated.

Same happened when Shin and her were hostages of the anti-UN and the totem thing came around , it had marks on it and it was made of some red kind of ¨clay¨. I find this extremely familiar to the stuff Dolems were made of in Rahxephon.

Taking into acount the fact that the Mayan island was in fact a remnant (t sounds like a ship from the mayan legend ) from the Protoculture coming , it wouldn´t be strange that they used nanotechnology to produce an artificial enviroment in the island for humans to live in in which case these rocks could be very well artificial devices to control gravity at the protoculture´s will without in fact having ¨powers¨.

the rocks , just as the APHOS , could detect specific Protoculture brainwaves patterns and float in response to that.

[Goshawk]

Focker was referring to all the older planes (F-14s, F/A-18s, etc). You might have a bad sub though. Focker was referring to how the VF-0 handles compared to the normal planes (i.e. it transforms, it's all-environment, etc)

ok Thats what I though, but I figure I'd ask. Thanks

[Dr Kain]

I´m sorry your misinformed presumptions lead you to believe Macross Zero was a rehash of SDF Macross , cause it WAS NOT.

Perhaps if you checked this site more often when Macross Zero was first announced and Kawamori formaly presented it in various interviews you would know the background facts leading to Macross Zero´s plot.

First of all , Kawamori said from the begining that Macross Zero was not going to be just a prelude to SW1 but actually a glimpse at the Protoculture´s role in humans fate.

It wasn´t intended to show the ¨missing parts¨ of SDF Macross , but to present a brand new story. If you expected a direct prequel to Macross then you just fooled yourself.

If you didn´t like what was shown in M0 then you should really re-watch the TV series again since most of its basis is there.

I can´t believe people can´t accept floating rocks in Macross Zero , which is explained clearly as an effect to the AFOS presence and alongside  no one critics the TV series for floating objects when the SDF-1 folds to space...that´s a seriously bias

Did you seriously expect the protoculture to be lame humans beings with no special skills ?  do you forget they had millions of years of evolution , they made the Zentradis , Zolans and Humans without hassle , they travelled through the whole galaxy (or universe ) ,etc... And you foolishly didn´t expect supernatural elements ?

I´ve seen a trend from macross fans ( particularly those detractors of newer series ) in which they do nothing but plead for a Macross rehash , is these a Gundam fan derived sindrome or do they not watch other anime ?

Huh? When did I say it was a rehash of the first series? I'm just saying it should have lead up to it better. I like originality, but this series just did not work for me at all.

And I really did not see anything to do with Protoculture except for one scene where they mentioned it.

As for checking this site, actually, I forgot it even existed until Saturday.

Also, there is a good reason no one criticizes floating objects in the original series when they are in space...WHEN THEY ARE IN SPACE. IN SPACE Anyway, it is not Sara's powers that I am talking about, it is the whole birdman thing. It would have been much better left as a myth, not reality.

I'm so sorry I did not like Zero, I really am. After all, if you like it, then obviously everyone must like it.

Edited April 7, 2005 by Dr Kain

[azrael]

Huh? When did I say it was a rehash of the first series? I'm just saying it should have lead up to it better. I like originality, but this series just did not work for me at all.

Fine. You didn't like it. What can we do.....

And I really did not see anything to do with Protoculture except for one scene where they mentioned it. 

Let's see, Hasford's theory, AFOS, clues to the Nome family's genetic structure, strange things on the island...etc. A lot of it is connected to Protoculture. It's up to the viewer to connect the dots.

Anyway, it is not Sara's powers that I am talking about, it is the whole birdman thing.  It would have been much better left as a myth, not reality.

It is a myth, to the people on the island. It's a matter of finding the truth behind the myth. And some myths are true.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Shin ascending into heaven of his own power suggests that part of the science is from some other dimension humans are yet to understand properly. Does it really matter that we completely understand how aliens' technology, (and thier minds) not ours, works? To me it would all be kept an underground top secret thing anyway.

Like the godlike character in Akira who singlehandedly uses telekinetic powers to go on a rampage, I can just put it down to this: PC studied themselves, or more evolved versions of themselves in some lab, created aritificial "organs" to do the tasks they could do naturally (like lift objects with the mind for example) and this became part of the technology in the ASS1 that we humans copied. Think of it as like UFO technology being reversed engineered, they do not necessarily act the same way a conventional "engine" would - maybe the organs simulate what the mind does, and the pilot thinks about where he/she wants to go with brainwaves or emotions that trigger mechanically the weapon systems associated with those thoughts. Birdman mech didn't have any physical controls to be seen so it must be brainwaves or something else more metaphysical.

Sara, being a shaman has techniques to awaken these dormant powers but there is also something spiritual involved (that is they tap into beings from other dimensions) that allows a limited form of levitation. The result being an antigrav field is generated around thier body. Just as she can use her singing to heal, and make plants grow, so too can she telekinetically lift objects; including herself, off the ground with the mind, and levitate.

I can totally see the PC now as not just being technologically advanced, but spiritually advanced. Remember: the whole theme of macross 7 is this battle against beings who steal people's life force so I'm thinking "anything goes". How could the PC have defeated the Protodevlin if they didn't first study what these mysterious creatures were before containing them like in the ghostbusters?

There is no turning back from the "magic" that was brought in since macross 7 was done. To me fantasy and myth have a place in sci-fi as much as technology. If the theme of the original macross was that we inherited our "knowledge" from aliens, and these aliens became the "mythological beings" that visited ancient humans and gave them warnings about the future from ancient writings on end-time prophecies if certain rules were borken, ...then yeah, it still fits neatly into the sci-fi half, as long as it was intended as part of the story all along.

I find it makes more sense when you think of the PC as being able to create "monsters" with thier crazy experiments to be used as bioweapons for space (Britai being a superior specimen in GE, could survive in space for a short time, so the PC scientists may have advanced this a bit to make creatures resistant to ANY hostile enviroment: space being the last environment where no living organism could survive in by itself) that weren't just physically powerful, but also tapped into all the supernatural powers like levitation, teleportation, possession of other bodies, creating DBZ-style enegy force fields, using thier telekinetic powers to lift cars off the ground and throw them around like projectiles, along with other general areas of mind improvement like increased intelligence etc This is why it seems so wierd: the PC were way ahead of humans that to us primitives (who have only copied a fraction of this culture's technology), thier monster soldiers would have had godlike powers that we just don't have time to understand using whatever human models we have. (invisible little black shapelings called "kaduns" don't exist to us afterall)

It almost links up with Exedol's strange reaction to Kaifun's kung fu movie in SDF:macross where the zentradi thought that what they were seeing was combat footage of legendary warriors with these legendary godlike or demi-godlike powers. (ie DBZ-style zapping with the finger) The humans didn't know there were really beings with these powers out there, and the zentradi didn't know they were looking at a movie designed for human entertainment. But macross Zero proves that some real people on earth actually did demonstrate something of the kind (healing plants) that perhaps Global and the others were unaware of due to the usual government secrecy of events. (until some higher-up whispered this into his ear upon hearing about this mysterious "protoculture" thing the zentradi were so fascinated with and were trying to find answers off us for, who kept accusing us of hiding the answer as a military secret when in fact we didn't really know WTF they were on about)

Edited April 7, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

I usually do not compare things, but comparing the Mayan themes used in this and RahXephon, RahXephon just totally creams Zero in everything but animation. 

I instead think that Rahxephon has the underhand, but not exactly for Macross Zero's merits

Perhaps if you checked this site more often when Macross Zero was first announced and Kawamori formaly presented it in various interviews you would know the background facts leading to Macross Zero´s plot.

To be exact, where were these interviews, aside from the DVD? From the news I gathered I was made to think that even Kawamori considered Macross Zero a minor project, since his answers were more trivial than personal. Everything one wanted to know was how Macross Zero fit in Macross continuity. I don't remember particular comments about what Kawamori was trying to achieve.

I´ve seen a trend from macross fans ( particularly those detractors of newer series ) in which they do nothing but plead for a Macross rehash , is these a Gundam fan derived sindrome or do they not watch other anime ?

I got the same feeling. The problem is not even the reharshing, but the fact that the reharsh should look more like Gundam, or to be more precise more than Gundam like some kind of videogame where the player has no control.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Shin ascending into heaven of his own power suggests that part of the science is from some other dimension humans are yet to understand properly.

I think it is exagerate to draw universal conclusions from individual occurrences in anime that could be considered even as flaws.

Does it really matter that we completely understand how aliens' technology, (and thier minds)  not ours, works?

Here instead the problem is general: is the watcher entitled to know how and why everything happens? Does he really need it?

The problem here represent even a personal connotation, as the suspension of disbelief is often subjective.

To me it would all be kept an underground top secret thing anyway.

It may takes generations of taxpayers but eventually military hardware has its civilian applications.

I can just put it down to this:

Technobabble, more technobabble and loosely plausible technobabble.

Sara, being a shaman has techniques to awaken these dormant powers but there is also something spiritual involved (that is they tap into beings from other dimensions) that allows a limited form of levitation. The result being an antigrav field is generated around thier body. Just as she can use her singing to heal, and make plants grow, so too can she telekinetically lift objects; including herself, off the ground with the mind, and levitate.

I think you should be even more radicale. Why not to think the world is the veil of Maya? When we face bad things we are seeing a cruel mask, but underneath there is the warmy smile of the sun. This happens because when the universe started to move it created opposites. Also, the right emisphere of the brain sees time as it really is, not linear but subjective; there is no progression, it is always there. The right emispheres of the brain can talk to each other, and they represent a collective mind of humanity; while sleeping this collective mind allow humanity to see the world as it really is. And such. These were ideas of Philip Dick. He didn't talk about levitation and making plants grow, but these ideas could be a good basis.

Since sooner or later we will end up into the uncharted territory of fan suppositions I thought we should be at least creative

I can totally see the PC now as not just being technologically advanced, but spiritually advanced.

I don't think they were that spiritually advanced if they still waged war, but then even the way we wage war now hasn't changed in these 2000 years.

How could the PC have defeated the Protodevlin if they didn't first study what these mysterious creatures were before containing them like in the ghostbusters?

The devils that possessed Protodevilns maybe were ancient legends in Protoculture's lore and Protoculture knew them because every life in the universe came from the same place, but this is a fan explanation.

(invisible little black shapelings called "kaduns" don't exist to us afterall)

You don't know if you don't search.

...

I've tried to see whether it was a word with a different spelling. After finding this I've stopped searching.

FV

Edited April 7, 2005 by Final Vegeta

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

That's disgusting. I understand now what she Sara was warning about when lecturing mao about the cursed urban kadun. jk.

It may takes generations of taxpayers but eventually military hardware has its civilian applications.

Not if the government has religious or ethical reasons for not going down certain areas, (for example cloning humans to make frankenstien soldiers - half animal half human hybrid mutants. I doubt many voters would support this.) and also whether you are able to make money off it. I'm sure if people could make money into a serious study of ghosts and spirits, bottle them up, patent them, and sell them, they would. But I doubt there is money to be made from it or that the ghosts themselves are willing to co-operate to make people rich..

I admit all my posts are just my own personal speculation and I'm trying to connect the dots, but this wouldn't have been necessary if the ending to macross zero was not so mysterious. I like to think the antigrav was helping to push rocks up in the air, but sorry: Sara dabbles into magic, is SEEN creating an energy shield around her, demonstrates proecognition (where she sees the valk coming before it happens) and also survives a huge drop that would have killed both her and shin if she didn't use some limited levitation ability.

We should just be grateful that after macross 7 started to bring magic into the story over the sci-fi, that macross zero put some more balance into it (treated the technology and its use like an xfile where scientists are using it but still can't explain everything) instead of leaving us to guess. I find that when the floating carriers liftd up into the air, it made total sense that this could be attributed to the reverse-engineered OT from ASS1. But the other stuff in macros 7 was more vague imo. (ie basara being the only one who sings that has magic effect on people, while everyone else fails. Could basra be a descendant of the islanders who have a bit of the PC "magic gene"?? Could he then mate with one of max's daughters and then in another series of macross, max's own descendants have not just uber reflexes and piloting ability because they are related to milia and max, but also magic abilities from song?)

Edited April 7, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't think they were that spiritually advanced if they still waged war, but then even the way we wage war now hasn't changed in these 2000 years.

That's interesting because if we ARE part protoculture, and Sara failed her test, then it explains something about humans and protoculutre: no one is perfect. Not even the "chosen ones". People do things they are forbidden from doing because it is enticing. Like Eve who ate the forbidden apple bringing the downfall of man to create fallen humans today who still fight and murder, and steal.

Exedol mentions that you can think of the protdevlin as satan. Maybe the scientists, accidentlly opened a gateway to hell in tapping into energies from this other dimension and these "Kadun" still exist in all humans who want to wage wars? (taking the form as evil black shapelings called "kadun" that are invisible to those without certain spiritual powers?)

Remember even though the purpose of un was to bring peace, it's real purpose was so all the nations could benefit from whatever technology the ship had, in order to make them all even more powerful and boost military strength - but the tech was not really shared was it?.

The motivation for working together was not peace and an end to war, but greed to advancee thier weapons and power instead of just using it only for the good of all. Why else would the anti-un want to steal the technology for themselves? People are still repeating the mistakes of the PC all the time because humans aren't "perfect". That includes UN soldiers who raped that chic and may have killed innocent civilians, making her want revenge and bringing an endless cycle of bloodshed. Militaries have a fascination with being able to access technologies that will enable them to have an advantage over everyone else so they can control them. And if they can keep it all a secret (lets just say free energy systems as an example) so that the power serves them or a select elite group, then they will. No different than from ancient times when some warriors had known the "riddle of steel" (technology from the ancient mythical atlantean giants who possibly built our ancient monuments) and began to make steel weapons like in the Conan movie to take control over others.

Of course the giants were savage warriors so it was no surprise they challenged and fought each other, but when they died out, slain and were bred out of existance, the once-innocent humans inherited the lost technology (the knowledge of the weapons - alchemy, art, science which made us superior in military power etc) and we started to behave like them and repeat thier violence, just on a more microcosmic scale. I think that when all of nature was in danger of being replaced by military weapons, it was a kind of poetic justice that technology itself (in the form of the judgemental bird mech) would be used to kill off the human race since it would not have made much difference to let the humans live if so many were going to suffer in endless war anyway.

Edited April 7, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sundown]

No , I was actually refering to the first fold made by the SDF-1 ON EARTH , look closely while it folds and you´ll see objects floating around the buble formed by the SDF-1 , that´s an effect of the fold produced by the SDF-1´s engines , just the same as it is seen in Macross Zero while the APHOS takes control of the Azuka´s engines and makes everything float. ( the azuka didn´t float like the SDF-1 but the APHOS did , and it used the Azuka´s engine to gather enough power to make everything float)

now , you could say how could sara make rocks float at the shrine , right ? ever noticed only the marked rocks floated around while nothing else did ? if she indeed had some kind of powers ( which I don´t think so) she could´ve made everything float , starting with water and vegetation around her , nut no , only the MARKED rocks floated.

Here, I'll attempt to summarize the floating rock sentiments.

Floating objects due gigantic alien ships and their mysterious and massive technology = cool.

Floating rocks because of naked human women singing, Pocahontas style with all the colors of the rainbow = corny.

It's the presentation and aesthetics of the idea. One's not so hard to swallow, as it looks like technology, albiet one that we can't understand. They other looks corny, magical-- not just in effect but actual presentation and aesthetics, and we're left with confused attempts to explain it with "err, something.. to do with her like, alien blood and stuff" and lots of hand waving. Citing Clarke's law of "technology appearing as magic" doesn't dismiss things completely, because Clarke in his own fiction still attempts to explain the technology that would seem to appear as sorcery to primatives. It's a totally different approach from showing magic and having you suppose its technoloy.

I suppose if it actually were aliens that were projecting some unearthly noise roughly correlated to song, causing the same effect of rocks floating, it wouldn't strike me as out of place. But if they took form scantily clad women and started singing tribal folk tunes and pulled something that looked like it came from a Disney flick, I'd still consider it corny and cheezy, and too "magical" for my tastes.

Like Eve who ate the forbidden apple bringing the downfall of man to create fallen humans today who still fight and murder, and steal.

Actually, to be fair, Adam was equally complicit. He saw that Eve seemed fine, shrugged off what God had explicitly said about them surely dying, and just sort of went "um, okay." Then he proceeded to blame the "woman You made me (notice the subtlely implied blame)" for it. The bible makes no qualms about pinning the responsibility of man's fall on Adam.

-Al

Edited April 8, 2005 by Sundown

[Final Vegeta]

That's disgusting. I understand now what she Sara was warning about when lecturing mao about the cursed urban kadun.  jk.

Repression of female sexuality is one of the key to control a people. Even in the last century in the "democratic" West clitoridectomia or lobotomy were imposed to "heal" a girl from female masturbation and lewdyness.

It may take generations of taxpayers but eventually military hardware has its civilian applications.

Not if the government has religious or ethical reasons for not going down certain areas, (for example cloning humans to make frankenstien soldiers - half animal half human hybrid mutants. I doubt many voters would support this.) and also whether you are able to make money off it.

You already have GM organisms.

What is their appeal? Say, to solve the problem of world hunger you will study "golden rice", a highly nutritional GM rice that alone would suffice (so it is kinda like hemp). Now, to buy these golden rice seeds a third world country will have to make another huge debt, but they are used to it. Why can't they use the seeds they have now? Because they sell most of their grains to first world countries (and in the meanwhile the price of their grains sank, while the oil price raised, so they have a huge debt and they are even poorer). Can you see the contradiction? Golden rice is not a viable solution. As long as we eat so much meat (it takes a lot of grains to raise a cow) these peoples are doomed to starve. And scientists waste a lot of money to research into this kind of things. Not forgetting that probably an exclusive diet of golden rice would cause some malnutrition disease.

That GMs are not even healthy it is another matter (have you ever heard of Árpád Pusztai?), but genetic resarches started. If you will manage to keep convincing people GMs are safe, you will gradually extend your field of research. Luckily, I think these people will be stopped sooner or later.

I'm sure if people could make money into a serious study of ghosts and spirits, bottle them up, patent them, and sell them, they would. But I doubt there is money to be made from it or that the ghosts themselves are willing to co-operate to make people rich..

I live in Italy. Due to religious education a lot of gramps here fall prey of so-called magicians and their claims of evil eye.

It doesn't matter whether it's actually real. You can sell even illusions.

Military could be consider it an attempt at psyop.

But the other stuff in macros 7 was more vague imo. (ie basara being the only one who sings that has magic effect on people, while everyone else fails.

It's not true. Even Gamlin could have effect. Basara was simply portrayed as the better.

Could basra be a descendant of the islanders who have a bit of the PC "magic gene"??

I think it was supposed to be one of the genes that humans already inherited.

People do things they are forbidden from doing because it is enticing.

But what if there isn't any rational reason for something to be forbidden, except that forbidding it makes some people really rich?

Remember even though the purpose of un was to bring peace

In real world nobody really brought peace that way.

After every ''victory'' you have more enemies.

~Jeanette Winterson

The UN was not born for that purpose. The planes that carry humanitarian aid to Africa also carry the weapons used in African wars.

but the tech was not really shared was it?.

Yes it was. Ivanov stated it. It may seem a contradiction, but this is what happens in real world. The US has sold weapons to all dictatorships in this world, missing just a few maybe. Recently US corporations sold even satellite and rocket technology to China. It's a scandal, and I can't find a rational reason behind it except the supermafia theory, but it happens.

Militaries have a fascination with being able to access technologies that will enable them to have an advantage over everyone else so they can control them.

Actually, you are talking more about politicians.

FV

Edited April 8, 2005 by Final Vegeta

[NoSuchFile]

I think it's a shame that a lot of fans can't accept the way where Macross is going. Most of you are flaming Zero cuz you don't like all the protoculture with song energy stuff that can make rocks float. Zero was a really nice OVA and yeah, character wise, we didn't get much, thought i think it rocked. Most of you are going to have to get used to the protoculture thing and the song part cuz if there is ever another Macross show/OVA/movie, it's gonna have lots of that in it, prally more than in the previous Macross stuff we've seen. Zero is done and no, we won't get a direct follow up of it, but we ARE gonna see more about Protoculture, they'll prally even mention the events of Zero, but i think that shose who felt that Zero sucked cuz of the protoculture events and the floating rocks, and floating carrier fleet plus a submarine, should refrain from watching any more Macross stuff, cuz the power of song is there to stay

[Aegis!]

Guys , you´ve gotta stop mixing M7 stuff with Zero´s elements.

For once Kawamori finally realised M7 failure to attract old fans and now you´re trying to connect it somehow to sound energy and all that. Macross Zero is actually a departure from that and onto new themes , particularly globalization and enviromental stuff and more importantly human nature.

M7 was nothing but a merchandising scheme by Victor entertainment and Bandai to get profits out of falling Macross sales ( as I said earlier , this was a take it or leave it decision imposed in Kawamori by the sponsors of Macross Plus , he either made a M7 or didn´t get the money for Macross Plus ).

Anyway, you´ve gotta see it this way , the plot of Zero demonstrate that neither Modern society nor Ancient culture is the final key for peace but actually love ( same as Aries words). This demonstrated by the fact that the UN anti-UN conflict only bought destruction and Sara´s beliefs only turned out to be false and her world was constructed over imaginary myths that were actually the doing of an ancient alien society.

All the mumbo jumbo talking Sara believed in was crap , it was meaningless , all her traditions were nothing but dumb human assumptions of what they though were giant birds-mans and turtles shells ( AFOS and Mayan island original mothership form ) based on their ignorant observations of ancient events and on the other hand all of the UN and anti-UN emprical knowledge and technology was nothing but meaningless crap as well.

Kaduns were not anything magical or supernatural like M7 fans like to put it ( it only seemed this way to natives due to their lack of modern culture ). In fact Kaduns , under very strict obvservations were always refered towards artifacts , being guns , radios , AFOS , valkyries , etc... they were not spirits or anything.

It´s like early humans when they discovered Fire , they though it was some form of magic or a even God , when after all it wa simply air in combustion. You get the idea , show a primitive man a photographic camera and he will think you´re stealing his soul, but it´s just a camera. Myth is only myth in the mind of the ignorant.

If you want to believe Macross Zero has unexplainable myths you´re just as dumb as Mayan natives.

At the end the only TRUE meaning to human life was not Sara´s or Shin´s beliefs but actually their love for each other , that was the only meaningful thing to human nature. Something the AFOS recognized at the end when Sara woke up to Shin´s presence ( the AFOS recognized armament as Kaduns hence all the misiles went straight for the armed SV-51s of Ivanov and Nora and the VF-0 add-ons and not to Shin´s unarmed valkyrie ).

This is demonstrated by the AFOS selective attack towards military artifacts/armament ( it could´ve very well have attacked the island or anything else ) and his questions to Sara about humans advances.

The APHOS decided to spare humans lives on earth only after he saw Sara´s love towards Shin but it was too late for that and the UN used the reaction missiles to destroy it. The AFOS/Sara realised it was useless to fight anymore and retired to deliver the human project results to the last known protoculture residence to the APHOS.

Fore the record , Sara did not use Songs to control the APHOS nor did songs have anything to do with Zero´s plot , songs were used just as a form of expresing feelings i.e. abnormal brainwave activies detectable by the APHOS , she could´ve been praying or painting or anything else , after all she didn´t use a song for the APHOS to stop attacking shin , she just talked in that scene. if Song was the only method then she should´ve to sing all the time. The APHOS just read the pilots mind , that´s all.

It was presented that way for two main reasons:

1.- it´s more dramatical and cool.

2.- Music is a main theme on Macross , an ending scene would be boring without it.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You already have GM organisms.

I know. I covered that in my "making money" bit. Personally I would not trust the eating of such food because I don't trust the people who make it. Watch the arnie movie "sixth day" where the cloners managed to deliberately put a timelimit on the poor clone which made them die early if they didn't buy more from the company. The company could leverage anyone after they took the first step into trusting them. Same thing with GM food: they probably have made it so diseases are created with this GM frankenstein food, and to make more money off the diseases, they would have created special drugs they could sell you to treat you of the diseases that they themselves created with the GM food in the first place - kind of like how microsoft can leverage anyone who relies on thier proprietary file formats and forces people and businesses to keep buying ONLY thier programs. (but not cure you of the disease completely. God forbid they would "cure" you of it when they can keep selling you "treatment" which is more profitable. It's all about money.)

I live in Italy. Due to religious education a lot of gramps here fall prey of so-called magicians and their claims of evil eye.

It doesn't matter whether it's actually real. You can sell even illusions.

But I mean like if a giant corporation could do it and sell it as if it were a product. With garantees that it works etc. Like tommorow sony decides that they want to sell you a kadun as a weapon to protect you against intruders. That kind of thing. Sara uses the staff as a weapon as if the curse would work. IF sony decided to test this in a lab and try to harness the powr of sara's magic, and sold staffs which worked everytime like a lightswitch, then that would be an example of them being able to "get rich" through the use of beings from another dimension/spirits/invisible people/ghosts/whatever.

It's not true. Even Gamlin could have effect. Basara was simply portrayed as the better.

Ok but not until the end of the show did this become apparent. I just think it took too long to get the idea across and the repetition of his singing the same stuff was wearing thin. I think the character was interesting but so was Priss from the knight sabers in bubble gum crisis, who did other interesting stuff besides just the singing of songs to cater to the fans who want some action too. ie using her abilities to protect innocents from bad people. At least in macross there were at least some characters who were hard to sympthise with because they were just plain evil: Kamjin. Not enough conflict amoungst characters, too much preachiness. I prefer the old school drama, tension between characters, inner conflict of the original macross more than macross 7. It doens't preach down to you as much, is far more grey, and shows the war from many different perspecitives.

Basara still comes off as a type of superhero. I think Hikaru was more interesting for the fact that he had to make tough decisions and had no choice but to fight due to the danger that the aliens were to him and his friends and the civilians. Not a single point in macross 7 did you ever think basara was in any danger, or had to make any tough decisions to test his belief. It's not so much that I disagree with what his character does in the series, just that I don't think it was as entertaining to watch him each episode doing the same thing when they could have focused on other characters with equal importance and given them equal time and say.

I think it was supposed to be one of the genes that humans already inherited.

So it's not shin reincarnated into a new body?

But what if there isn't any rational reason for something to be forbidden, except that forbidding it makes some people really rich?

Good question. But I doubt that Sara's dad was trying to get rich by forbidding sara from giving blood. It would have been that sara was tempted to break the rule because she couldn't resist the bead necklce. Well women love jewlery, maybe that is thier weakness and by having it, it is like the corruption of the serpent in the garden. Promising nothing bad will happen by tempting eve to bite the forbidden fruit and that her tribe won't suffer as a consequence of her failure. Think of us current day humans as symoblising eve's/sara's mistakes. If she didn't screw up and let the tempter get thier way, none of us future generations would have to suffer. "If you wish to have a long life: follow my irrational rules. Wanna die early? Do the exact opposite - your choice".

Note how her dad never stopped sara from accepting the bribe or intervened? People are not PERFECT. Even ones in positions of authority or high status. Mistakes made at this level cause BIGGER effects than if somebody of no importance made those same mistakes. Think of the biblical "fallen angels" whose job was to watch the human race but who decided to leave thier place and party with earthen women and pullote the genepool instead? Any mistake at the top causes massive ripple effects of corruption below because by setting a crap example, and showing how hypocritical you can be, it destroys whatever integrity and respect others had for you before you fell, and this leads to lawless behaviour amoungst those on the bottom. "Why should I listen to this guy who is allowed to do these things and he can get away with this crime, and I can't? Not fair!"

If someone of a good repuation is involved in some scandal, then turns around and tells us to follow his rules, would you listen? Hell no. You would rather get them out of thier position of power and rightfully put someone else in charge. The problem is answered with the solution that if nobody is perfect then the only way is forgiving them and living and tolerating thier sins. (the story of the birdmech cutting its own head off so we could live for a bit longer) So if somebody genuinely fails and realises the gravity of thier errors, you give them a chance. If not, and they continue to be proud of thier behaviour and unapolegetic, and unwilling to change, then it is safer to kill them off (the birdmechs beams of death) to protect those who are suffering because of them. (only those possessed with kaduns were targeted, which sounds fair-enough to me given that the weapons were only used to destroy things and the island itself. It would be seen as the villagers self defence as they were there first.)

Her blood sample is all the anti-un and un needed to find this weapon so they could try to have the power for themselves. Her dad's warning that the end of the world would come if she let white people take her blood, may have seemed like a stupid irrational thing to you, (quite understandable at the time, if you don't understand the reasons for why certain rules were put there to forbid people from doing things as simple as giving blood) but the god/god/godess who gave the prophecy knew what was going to happen if they didn't listen - after all they were the creators: they would know us better than we do ourselves. To the islanders giving the blood sample is a very serious thing even if they don't know why.

The technology advances would NOT be used for benevolent purposes but more so certain controllers could just do as they pleased and keep the power to themselves by creating more advanced weapons to make the killing of people easier. (the casualty of all this is that no matter who are the good guys in the war or whoever is "right", innocents who are on neither side and who want to be left alone are always the first to suffer. That means innocent women and children who suffer, not so much the soldiers who were already prepared to die from the begining by joining a side.)

The UN was not born for that purpose. The planes that carry humanitarian aid to Africa also carry the weapons used in African wars.

I know but that's what kids will probably be taught in schools. I made a comment about how I thought the next genreation of kids will be brainwashed by robotech (see the harmony gold teams up with UN thread) thanks to the publicity the un will get using robotech as a vehicle to pimp thier image of doing good works to children all over the world.

Yes it was. Ivanov stated it. It may seem a contradiction, but this is what happens in real world. The US has sold weapons to all dictatorships in this world, missing just a few maybe. Recently US corporations sold even satellite and rocket technology to China. It's a scandal, and I can't find a rational reason behind it except the supermafia theory, but it happens.

What I meant by "shared" was that the public would be able to use the knowledge not just for weapons but for good things too. Rather than it being hidden to benefit a few, it could be used to benefit all. That kind of thing. But technology can be used for good and bad things and if you want to control it, ytou have to be willing to kill anyone that gets in your way, because like in an indiana jones movie, there will be many trying to take the goodie off you into thier own hands. The mayan's had thier land burnt, thier people killed by the two sides, just so each could try to control the other with it. When one side has the knowledge, you can bet it will be used to build more advanced weaponry that tips the scales in thier favour. If the un didn't destroy the birdmech through project iconoclasm, the anti-un might use it against them and win the war. It's more a struggle for power (which corrupts good people to do bad things) not a battle between pure good and pure evil.

The real reason weapons are sold to "enemies" is probably because there is secret agreements to eventually move towards a world power where corporations themselves become the actual government and the common people don't have power to step in and control what corporations can do. In the future, corporations will control schools, and everything will be owned by an elite few to shape the world to how they see fit and the government won't really have much power to step in anymore - because they ARE the government. The real war is for markets. So long as the money made allows you to win in the end, what difference does it make who the buyer is? The agenda all along was to strengthen two sides so that they are roughly equal in strength 50/50 and then make money off the killong of those two sides as they buy more and more weapons off you. It's not like you have to sell the enemy your most advanced weapons, keep those to yourself to defend and control the conflicts like the way the zentradi restrict the size of thier grunts. For a glimpse into the future/now watch that movie Robocop and how Omni Consumer Products (OCP) basically owns the place. They probably manufacture absolutly everything. The cops themselves can't touch them!

Actually, you are talking more about politicians.

Them too. But given they have acess to armies, and the armies themselves are used by them. It makes no difference imo. whether you be guy pulling the trigger or just the guy pulling the strings that makes the puppet perform the action which makes the machine move, it's all the same. I don't think the mayan islanders really gave a crap about whether it was UN or anti-un, since all they wanted was for both of them to get off thier land and leave them alone. From thier perspective a valkyire is an evil spirit come to kill thier natural home which they rely on to be self-sufficient to survive. If given a choice most islanders would leave the island to live in a city but the important ones had a sacred mission that if ignored, could mean life or death that would spell doom for everyone.

Her dad wasn't the leader of a group of nutcases, (sara herself demonstrate precognitive ability so its hardly superstition) who just followed orders because they were programmed to, it was because they were the spiritual elite of thier tribe and knew there were grave consequences if they were caught napping. Kind of like in star wars if a jedi decides to let the dark force 'corrupt' him when he is not "mindful of his thoughts", his own jedi skills can become a deadly weapon for the other side and mean the doom of all innocent people. It may be best NOT to train certain people who can't pass the test if it means you can prolong the inevitable. ("end of time" prophecy that hasford mentions in all the world legends and myths upon his death. Very similar to the Jedi prophecy of the kid who brings balance to the force in star wars.)

Edited April 9, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Fore the record , Sara did not use Songs to control the APHOS nor did songs have anything to do with Zero´s plot , songs were used just as a form of expresing feelings i.e. abnormal brainwave activies detectable by the APHOS , she could´ve been praying or painting or anything else , after all she didn´t use a song for the APHOS to stop attacking shin , she just talked in that scene. if Song was the only method then she should´ve to sing all the time. The APHOS just read the pilots mind , that´s all.

It was presented that way for two main reasons:

1.- it´s more dramatical and cool.

2.- Music is a main theme on Macross , an ending scene would be boring without it.

Well in the end the aphos was 1 giant flower that bloomed. The song being "sung" by this giant flower takes the form of what mood it was in/what kind of tune it would play. Being worshipped as a god by the primitives: It could give life (creation song) or take it(destruction song) depending on the song being played.

The song of destruction = judgment by the AFOS upon all the weapons responsbile for killing innocent life

The song of Creation = love between two people from different cultures/worlds/species that produces or "creates" offspring: a product of the two people in love. The afos isn't interested in killing those who are "creative/productive/loving", only those who are destroying things. Now think of this "love" as being expressed in every insect, fish, mammel, plant etc which the afos is trying to "protect" from the villains and you can interpret the ancient myth based on what you are:

1. If you are an evil bad guy possessed by hate, (don't try to say that the un and anti-un are blameless because they are not - clearly the images of shin's brutally murdered parents, sara's village being bombed complete with unarmed mother and child, and nora's chest scar which shows her being sadistically tortured indicate they were both at each other's throats) willing to kill and murder life, and destroy nature (the burning of the forest which killed all those insects and animals producing)

...then the prophecy talks of your doom and death as the song of "destruction" because of your kaduns of fear, sadness and hate which you will not let go of and move on.

however:

2. If you are a peaceful, loving person, wanting an end to violence, (because the aphos can sense your intent and emotions) then the prophecy talks to you as the song of "creation". (shin and sara who were destined to be lovers which cancelled out the destruction)

Either way: both versions - song of creation and the song of destruction were played out. This is why Aries comes to the conclusion:"It is easy to save the world from extinction. Just love each other" ..before she dies in roy's arms.

The bird DOES judge the kadun (which are the evil spirits inside the weapons or the "hate and fear" coming out of the people using them) but it also brings the two characters together because thier fate is intertwined by it; like the "wind and sea" love sticks (Shin's on a mission to help the UN in finding this thing, while Sara is trying to keep it secret) resulting in "love" when they met, the emotion that would cause the bird to spare the innocent. Even though from the get go, you can tell these two characters hate each other's guts, and they couldn't possibly fall in love, fate steps in and brings the two together because of thier entanglments with the afos.

You'll note that the superstitions of the islanders have some merit. After all in episode 1 shin points the wooden stick at Sara, (joking later that he was supposed to be using the stick in a threatening manner) and by the end of episode 5 the two are in love with each other. The love stick was a foretelling of future events.

Kaduns were not anything magical or supernatural like M7 fans like to put it ( it only seemed this way to natives due to their lack of modern culture ). In fact Kaduns , under very strict obvservations were always refered towards artifacts , being guns , radios , AFOS , valkyries , etc... they were not spirits or anything.

It´s like early humans when they discovered Fire , they though it was some form of magic or a even God , when after all it wa simply air in combustion. You get the idea , show a primitive man a photographic camera and he will think you´re stealing his soul, but it´s just a camera. Myth is only myth in the mind of the ignorant.

If you want to believe Macross Zero has unexplainable myths you´re just as dumb as Mayan natives.

Unfortunately I'd like to believe there was no magic but the shamanic magic is very real. (not superstition) Remember that scene where she was floating the rocks? (she didn't realise it until she opened her eyes) Rememeber that scene where she rode on a pole? Remember that scene where Shin and Sara fell off that pole and did not die? Uh, and what about the bit where the plane floats with that magical blue stuff in episode 5 not to mention the plants growing at an accelerated speed?

Also remember when Shin says "even if I told them they wouldn't believe me anyway. Whites only believe what they can see." Are you sugesting it was all a halucination and shin was on drugs? Face it already, magic is part of it: macross 7 put us on the rode to something more spiritual than SDF:Macross and macross plus. Maybe there is a vague metaphysical scientific model for trying to explain it, but apart from the antigrav stuff, I find it hard to believe there wasn't something else going on in all those other bits that did not involve just machines but involved some real shamanic/protoculture magic. Maybe they are all in the matrix, and sharon apple went rogue in macross plus, escaped after wirlessly uploading her personality to some missing drone, and then after hypnotising all the people has created a false world, and macross zero is all just a dream... but I doubt it.

You don't have to call it magic, but even the compendium mentions a sub universe of some sort where the original vampiric energy beings took control of the minds of the PC, some zentradi, and generally brought the downfall of the lost civilisation. I'll just say it was "the devil" (I think exedol even used the term) and that "the devil", once he was unleashed, got his wish of destruction of all living things when he wiped out the PC, until they found a way to magically seal them. But it was too late once the infrastructure, knowledge and high technology was gone, and all that was left of thier memory were us and some ancient ruins. (which I find kind of strange that they would still write stories on rocks instead of as a text file on a hardisk DYRL shows us they used computers with holograms at least..)

Edited April 9, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Keith]

Guys , you´ve gotta stop mixing M7 stuff with Zero´s elements.

For once Kawamori finally realised M7 failure to attract old fans and now you´re trying to connect it somehow to sound energy and all that. Macross Zero is actually a departure from that and onto new themes , particularly globalization and enviromental stuff and more importantly human nature.

M7 was nothing but a merchandising scheme by Victor entertainment and Bandai to get profits out of falling Macross sales ( as I said earlier , this was a take it or leave it decision imposed in Kawamori by the sponsors of Macross Plus , he either made a M7 or didn´t get the money for Macross Plus ).

What reality are you living in? 7 was a huge success, no matter how much you think your dislike for it makes it a failure, it was still a huge success. Your version of history also seems somewhat skewed. It was Plus that Kawamori was forced to make, so he re-wrote his Advanced Valkyrie storyline to fit it. He was basically told that he couldn't do a new series until he did a Macross Project first. Apparently it piqued his interest, and 7 soon went into production too. But to try & argue that Zero is a departure from everything 7, when the entire storyline basically re-inforces everything that was introduced in 7 is just plain silly.

If you don't like 7, get over it, many did.

[yellowlightman]

M7 was nothing but a merchandising scheme by Victor entertainment and Bandai to get profits out of falling Macross sales ( as I said earlier , this was a take it or leave it decision imposed in Kawamori by the sponsors of Macross Plus , he either made a M7 or didn´t get the money for Macross Plus ).

Back that statement up with some sources, please.

[Aegis!]

Guys , you´ve gotta stop mixing M7 stuff with Zero´s elements.

For once Kawamori finally realised M7 failure to attract old fans and now you´re trying to connect it somehow to sound energy and all that. Macross Zero is actually a departure from that and onto new themes , particularly globalization and enviromental stuff and more importantly human nature.

M7 was nothing but a merchandising scheme by Victor entertainment and Bandai to get profits out of falling Macross sales ( as I said earlier , this was a take it or leave it decision imposed in Kawamori by the sponsors of Macross Plus , he either made a M7 or didn´t get the money for Macross Plus ).

What reality are you living in? 7 was a huge success, no matter how much you think your dislike for it makes it a failure, it was still a huge success. Your version of history also seems somewhat skewed. It was Plus that Kawamori was forced to make, so he re-wrote his Advanced Valkyrie storyline to fit it. He was basically told that he couldn't do a new series until he did a Macross Project first. Apparently it piqued his interest, and 7 soon went into production too. But to try & argue that Zero is a departure from everything 7, when the entire storyline basically re-inforces everything that was introduced in 7 is just plain silly.

If you don't like 7, get over it, many did.

Keith , I DO like 7 , I´m just stating the fact that HERE on MW there are MANY MANY people that dislike it , production-wise it was a huge success , but in terms of appealing to older Macross fans it did not attract all of them. that was my point.

And no Macross Zero does not reinforce the magical supernatural side of Macross 7 , it shows that those things that APPEAR to be supernatural to humans are only part of evolution and technology but in the end the only true real superpower is LOVE not mystical mumbo jumbo not variable fighters.

And also , you´re wrong , go check the main MW site , Kawamori created the advanced valkyrie project long before ever thinking of Macross 7 , he approached the sponsors to get support for it but they told him that without an already famous franchise like the Macross name it would be useless so he accpeted to do it under the name of Macross ( and later some of the AV designs went into Escaflowne).

It wasn´t until later that the sponsors told him that they wanted him to do a TV series focused on modern japanese culture (J-pop , pacifism , rockstars , etc...) to appeal to a younger audience and he could get more support for Macross Plus ,so he accepted and M7 was born.

[AlphaHX]

It wasn´t until later that the sponsors told him that they wanted him to do a TV series focused on modern japanese culture (J-pop , pacifism , rockstars , etc...) to appeal to a younger audience and he could get more support for Macross Plus ,so he accepted and M7 was born.

Back that statement up with some sources, please.

Ditto.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

And no Macross Zero does not reinforce the magical supernatural side of Macross 7 , it shows that those things that APPEAR to be supernatural to humans are only part of evolution and technology but in the end the only true real superpower is LOVE not mystical mumbo jumbo not variable fighters.

-I agree love is the central theme.

-I agree that technology and evolution may appear "like evil magic" to the primitives on the island. Eg where Mao does not belive sara's superstitions and tales of the birdhumans and is angry at her because technology can be used for good harmless activities too: like taking photographs of relatives, listening to music on the radio, watching tv, and transporting things quickly with trains etc.

BUT....

-That the magic coming from Sara (and mao) IS REAL

-That because of her powers to make rocks float, fly on a friggin pole using her her mind, she may have her own unique interpretation of some of the technology as being 'evil'. Like calling the weapons "fire Kaduns" instead of "fighter planes", "bombs", or "guns". Because they are "weapons of war that kill people", to her that interpretation is not entirely incorrect when you consider she lost loved ones in a previous bombing. Just as in some prophecies people have predicted the use of the car and the planes in ancient times to fly to other continents, and you see these rock drawings of cars and planes being depicted in the drawings that we use today. If thier culture is destroyed as a result of this progress, it must seem to these culture that the end of the world is near.

AND...

-That these kaduns may in fact be real entities that we just can't see, unless you are in the unique position that Sara was in when she went into the cockpit of the AFOS and could see the black Kaduns. You can argue it was just "presented" that way for audience convenience, but to me all of the series are canon (no matter whether you as a fan like it or not) except for macross II, and the subuniverse where the energy came from and entered into the universe became aware of our world, ...is real. Read the compendium. (note first line) I don't care that macross 7 is a different series, to me its the best way to help explain some of the more mysterious things (like humans with powers) in macross zero, which unlike macross plus, wasn't so wierd in its ending.

Just accept it. Unless there was some footage that was cut showing a machine being used to heal sara and shin when they fell from a great height and should have died, then I'm going to continue to assume that part of it is technology (like the use of antigrvity to lift ships into the air) and the other part has to do with sara's real powers. (the scene with the floating rocks and the flying pole - which many people still wonder "WTF was that about??" in a normally sci-fi franchise such as macross.)

Normal people can't lift rocks. Sara can. Normal people can't fall from a great height and survive. Sara and Shin did just that. If people can accept star wars' jedi mind tricks, force powers, etc in thier sci-fi, why not have an open mind and realise that main characters may have something similar? (precognition, limited telekinesis, ability to heal using powers, metaphysical levitation, making plants grow quickly, intuitively sensing danger in the water without seeing it with thier eyes but through some form of mental telpathy with animals, Astral projection etc)

Edited April 10, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Keith]

Don't forget, Sara's powers weren't limited to "flying rocks," she also had the ability to highten living energy with her song. Check out Episode 4, flowers, animals, bugs, etc, all gained strength from her singing, ala Anima Spiritia.