Macross Zero

[wolfx]

I just realised that driving to work today, the marine dyke that won Shinn at wrestling didn't play a mmajor role...in fact she didn't appear after that fight scene. Pfft....i thought she would come and save shinn's ass and die trying or something.....

[Guest Bromgrev]

Macross certainly has the better looking mecha and better music for the most part than Gundam, so as long as the original creative team were retained I don't think it's unreasonable that Macross could have become the Gundam of today.

While the mecha was better it was a lot harder to make a good toy out of it than Gundam, and thus more expensive. Despite all things popularity mean, this is the real bottle neck of Macross.

FV

So true - and those primary colours help, too. Much more attractive to a grandmother's failing eyesight than, say a pale tan ...

[Renato]

Which one is the Chafaris?

Duke Freid's guymelef. Here's an image.

Who?? Wha?? I looked at the picture but I can't say I ever noticed it in the show, nor heard the name of that character. Wow, I have the entire show on video (including most of the "extended" episodes with the deleted scenes restored), but I obviously need to rewatch it!! Round about what part do they appear?

Also, thanks for all the Arjuna info, man.

[LePoseur]

<snip> and to top it all off, Kawamori seems to be turning into some sort of nature obsessed tree hugger.

Sadly, the longer I live in Tokyo the more I find myself turning into a nature-obsessed tree hugger too. I think it's the almost total lack of nature(*) where I live really contributes to that. There's only so many rows of gray concrete buildings in the morning smog, all lined up like tombstones in a giant graveyard, that the soul can take before it either gives up or begins to seriously pine for some real nature.

(*) To be sure, Tokyo does have some trees and whatnot, but it's all controlled and micromanaged to the point where I don't even know if you can call it nature anymore. I mean, do pruned potted plants count as nature. Skeleton trees?

Never thought I could be a country person until I moved to this city.

(we now return you to our regularly scheduled despair over Macross)

[Pat Payne]

As far as I know, Macross is BW's only anime property, so you would think that they would be a bit more active in promoting it.

BW also had a hand in, IIRC, Captain Tylor. That doesn't mitigate the fact that they should be pumping Macross more, especially after expending all that energy and treasure defending their rights to it in court.

[Aegis!]

uhm.. so it has been established that the direct sequel for Macross Zero is in fact... SDF Macross... since that pretty much kills any topic for discussion, why is it so badd/off topic to discuss ideas for other sequels?

And, no where did anyone state that the SA is responsible for alter the human genome... don't see where you got that.

Mate , is it so damn difficult to understand this topic has NOTHING to do with Zero´s ending or overall plot ? we´re trying to talk about Macross Zero production values and the companies effort behind it.

Sorry about the SA part tough.

I doubt that we will ever see a direct continuation of the Macross Zero storyline from Kawamori with the same characters, as he seems to have a thing for having his characters disappear, never to be seen again.

Graham , sorry if I wasn´t clear with my question , but I never say if we could expect for a DIRECT sequel , just a new series , could be before or after Zero.

I too think it´s pretty impossible to expect a direct sequel , mainly cause that would be SDF macross , but even a side story is possible.

I still think it is a foolish idea. The "chapter" Kawamori is living in is not finished. First of all, you don't have identified what is fascinating Kawamori: Hindu culture.

Look at this Gabil. It began with Hindu-inspired designs. There was one of them in Escaflowne too (the Chafaris), even if that may have been a chance. Arjuna was a step further in implementing even Hindu philosophy. The name Arjuna itself was derived from a Hindu myth.

Macross Zero involved some themes already presented in Arjuna (one of them many skip is how words are not the thing they mean), but it was not Hindu. It was reminiscent of Polynesian culture (although the Rapa Nui's birdman is totally different from Macross Zero's birdman). Aquarion is Hindu and many else, but there isn't yet a Hindu Macross.

FV

hahaha , wasn´t it obvious Kawamori is interested in eastern mythology ( Hindu , polynesian , etc...) ? seriously , we´ve known that for some time now.

My point is, now that Aquarion seems to gather all this themes it is more probable that he´ll either expand more afterwards OR move onto something else in his next projects ( Macross included)

Which one is the Chafaris?

And general OT question: Is Arjuna good?

Dude , please , don´t hijack the thread.

I've always thought that BW waited far too long to release a proper sequel to Macross. I mean from DYRL in 1984 to Macross II in 1992, that's 8 years of no Macross!

OK, there was also Flash Back 2012 released in 1987, but that doesn't really count as it's basically just 30 minute of recycled song footage from the TV series and DYRL with a couple of minutes of new scenes added.

BW really needed to strike while Macross was still fresh in everybody's minds and still popular. A sequel TV series say in 1985 or 1986, followed up by a new series or OVA every couple of years (just like Bandai/Sunrise does with Gundam) would possibly have led to Macross being as popular as Gundam is today, assuming proper marketing and support from major toy and model manufacturers.

Macross certainly has the better looking mecha and better music for the most part than Gundam, so as long as the original creative team were retained I don't think it's unreasonable that Macross could have become the Gundam of today. It was certainly popular enough in 1982. In the end though, it was just too little, too late from BW and Macross was never again able to catch up to the Gundam giant.

Graham

I totally agreee with you Graham , I always wonder what the heck does BW do everyday ,seriously , do they expect their series to be know solely by accidentally being rented at japanese stores ? that´s lame.

It´s like they´ve never come across the word ¨marketing¨ in the dictionary.

I think the main responsible for Macross´s chronical failure to be noticed and, ironically , its success is no one else than Kawamori himself.

How is this ? well , his negligence and negation to do another Macross series after DYRL is the cause Macross didn´t catch up with series like Gundam wich released series after series based on the same amount of success as macross had in its time , plus the fact that BW attempt to do their own Macross without him was not accepted by all fans ( if any) all summed to today´s condition.

This is an example:

Gundam fanboy : Dude , another Gundam series , where will the colonies drop now ?

Macross fanboy : DUDE !!! a new series ! GOSH THANK YOU FOR HEARING MY PRAYERS.

isn´t it sad ?

[eugimon]

uhm.. so it has been established that the direct sequel for Macross Zero is in fact... SDF Macross... since that pretty much kills any topic for discussion, why is it so badd/off topic to discuss ideas for other sequels?

And, no where did anyone state that the SA is responsible for alter the human genome... don't see where you got that.

Mate , is it so damn difficult to understand this topic has NOTHING to do with Zero´s ending or overall plot ? we´re trying to talk about Macross Zero production values and the companies effort behind it.

Sorry about the SA part tough.

I doubt that we will ever see a direct continuation of the Macross Zero storyline from Kawamori with the same characters, as he seems to have a thing for having his characters disappear, never to be seen again.

Graham , sorry if I wasn´t clear with my question , but I never say if we could expect for a DIRECT sequel , just a new series , could be before or after Zero.

I too think it´s pretty impossible to expect a direct sequel , mainly cause that would be SDF macross , but even a side story is possible.

I still think it is a foolish idea. The "chapter" Kawamori is living in is not finished. First of all, you don't have identified what is fascinating Kawamori: Hindu culture.

Look at this Gabil. It began with Hindu-inspired designs. There was one of them in Escaflowne too (the Chafaris), even if that may have been a chance. Arjuna was a step further in implementing even Hindu philosophy. The name Arjuna itself was derived from a Hindu myth.

Macross Zero involved some themes already presented in Arjuna (one of them many skip is how words are not the thing they mean), but it was not Hindu. It was reminiscent of Polynesian culture (although the Rapa Nui's birdman is totally different from Macross Zero's birdman). Aquarion is Hindu and many else, but there isn't yet a Hindu Macross.

FV

hahaha , wasn´t it obvious Kawamori is interested in eastern mythology ( Hindu , polynesian , etc...) ? seriously , we´ve known that for some time now.

My point is, now that Aquarion seems to gather all this themes it is more probable that he´ll either expand more afterwards OR move onto something else in his next projects ( Macross included)

Which one is the Chafaris?

And general OT question: Is Arjuna good?

Dude , please , don´t hijack the thread.

I've always thought that BW waited far too long to release a proper sequel to Macross. I mean from DYRL in 1984 to Macross II in 1992, that's 8 years of no Macross!

OK, there was also Flash Back 2012 released in 1987, but that doesn't really count as it's basically just 30 minute of recycled song footage from the TV series and DYRL with a couple of minutes of new scenes added.

BW really needed to strike while Macross was still fresh in everybody's minds and still popular. A sequel TV series say in 1985 or 1986, followed up by a new series or OVA every couple of years (just like Bandai/Sunrise does with Gundam) would possibly have led to Macross being as popular as Gundam is today, assuming proper marketing and support from major toy and model manufacturers.

Macross certainly has the better looking mecha and better music for the most part than Gundam, so as long as the original creative team were retained I don't think it's unreasonable that Macross could have become the Gundam of today. It was certainly popular enough in 1982. In the end though, it was just too little, too late from BW and Macross was never again able to catch up to the Gundam giant.

Graham

I totally agreee with you Graham , I always wonder what the heck does BW do everyday ,seriously , do they expect their series to be know solely by accidentally being rented at japanese stores ? that´s lame.

It´s like they´ve never come across the word ¨marketing¨ in the dictionary.

I think the main responsible for Macross´s chronical failure to be noticed and, ironically , its success is no one else than Kawamori himself.

How is this ? well , his negligence and negation to do another Macross series after DYRL is the cause Macross didn´t catch up with series like Gundam wich released series after series based on the same amount of success as macross had in its time , plus the fact that BW attempt to do their own Macross without him was not accepted by all fans ( if any) all summed to today´s condition.

This is an example:

Gundam fanboy : Dude , another Gundam series , where will the colonies drop now ?

Macross fanboy : DUDE !!! a new series ! GOSH THANK YOU FOR HEARING MY PRAYERS.

isn´t it sad ?

sorry, my bad... I guess I just looked at the title of this thread:

Macross Zero: does it lead to expect a second series ?

and just assumed that the part where you said, "does it lead to..." implied plot... I can't fathom how I could have ever of thought that this thread could have anything possible to do with the ending or overall plot as obviously that would have nothing to do with setting up a sequel or second series.

again, my bad.

welcome to a hijacked thread. it happens here and in life. oh well.

[Aegis!]

sorry, my bad... I guess I just looked at the title of this thread:

Macross Zero: does it lead to expect a second series ?

and just assumed that the part where you said, "does it lead to..." implied plot... I can't fathom how I could have ever of thought that this thread could have anything possible to do with the ending or overall plot as obviously that would have nothing to do with setting up a sequel or second series.

again, my bad.

welcome to a hijacked thread. it happens here and in life. oh well.

HEY CONGRATULATIONS!!!

You´re the 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000th person to discover the marvels of sarcastic speech Here have a happy meal with a face as a gift.

Next time take the time to read other people´s post before talking sh¨t.

Here , let me make it easy for you so you don´t have to search 3 pages back.

Here´s my original post regarding this thread topic:

Anyway , a follow up doesn´t necesarilly mean a direct sequel ( SDF Macross) it can be anything , I´m not gonna especulate about what kind of sequel it should be cause there´s been TONS of threads about it.

I repeat , this ain´t a thread for posting your ideas on a new series , is just for the sake of sharing our thoughts on the matter of Macross Zero production process and resulting outcome.

We know for a fact Bandai gave the production tea a load of money for this OVA series, they got Adobe newest software for the CG work and all that , but why did they give macross such a high budget without expecting something complete , like a whole line projects ( like macross Plus , OVA+ Movie ).

If they only wanted to make an isolated OVA series they could´ve made a plain and simple OVA series with the same old elements without including the Protoculture or the Unification and Anti-UN war in it.

BTW , i´ve been here since 2001 , believe me when I say I don´t give a F^*K about some old geeza hijacking a thread, I´ve a fair share of experience there. It ain´t my problem if people waste their life with OT posts ; it´s bad already we waste so much time debating things on topic.

Edited March 17, 2005 by Aegis!

[eugimon]

sorry, my bad... I guess I just looked at the title of this thread:

Macross Zero: does it lead to expect a second series ?

and just assumed that the part where you said, "does it lead to..." implied plot... I can't fathom how I could have ever of thought that this thread could have anything possible to do with the ending or overall plot as obviously that would have nothing to do with setting up a sequel or second series.

again, my bad.

welcome to a hijacked thread. it happens here and in life. oh well.

HEY CONGRATULATIONS!!!

You´re the 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000th person to discover the marvels of sarcastic speech Here have a happy meal with a face as a gift.

Next time take the time to read other people´s post before talking sh¨t.

Here , let me make it easy for you so you don´t have to search 3 pages back.

Here´s my original post regarding this thread topic:

Anyway , a follow up doesn´t necesarilly mean a direct sequel ( SDF Macross) it can be anything , I´m not gonna especulate about what kind of sequel it should be cause there´s been TONS of threads about it.

I repeat , this ain´t a thread for posting your ideas on a new series , is just for the sake of sharing our thoughts on the matter of Macross Zero production process and resulting outcome.

We know for a fact Bandai gave the production tea a load of money for this OVA series, they got Adobe newest software for the CG work and all that , but why did they give macross such a high budget without expecting something complete , like a whole line projects ( like macross Plus , OVA+ Movie ).

If they only wanted to make an isolated OVA series they could´ve made a plain and simple OVA series with the same old elements without including the Protoculture or the Unification and Anti-UN war in it.

BTW , i´ve been here since 2001 , believe me when I say I don´t give a F^*K about some old geeza hijacking a thread, I´ve a fair share of experience there. It ain´t my problem if people waste their life with OT posts ; it´s bad already we waste so much time debating things on topic.

or... maybe I did read the original intent of your post.. read through all the oh so serious replies, noticed that many people were having the fun and decided to jump on the band wagon.

dude.. the freaking title of the topic totally goes in a different direction.. if you see a thread that says: Transformers, discuss the idea of a sequel based on the last show here. What would you think? would you think that discussing sequel ideas based on the plot would be far fetched? Or would you think that you were supposed to talk about the CG render technology and why that new tripple bump filtering tools means that there should be a new show.

There's no possible way that the same tech could be applied to a totally different anime series right?

Just get over your self "mate." you started a thread, nobody cares. Some of us are having some fun and tossing some ideas around for possible sequels. It still falls under the title of the topic, which is worded so ambiguously that it could mean anything having to do with the general idea of a macross sequel.

Sides, you yourself go off topic and started talking about the marketing strategy of BW in your last post. What does that have to do with the production values?

anyways, last OT post from me here.. sorry dude, have a nice day.

Edited March 17, 2005 by eugimon

[Radd]

I just realised that driving to work today, the marine dyke that won Shinn at wrestling didn't play a mmajor role...in fact she didn't appear after that fight scene. Pfft....i thought she would come and save shinn's ass and die trying or something.....

Actually, she did appear once again. She was one of the marines that took Mao back to the carrier when Shin took off with the Birdman's head, and the the U.N. abandoned the island under the Anti-U.N. assault.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Heh, kinda grumpy eh?

but why did they give macross such a high budget without expecting something complete , like a whole line projects ( like macross Plus , OVA+ Movie ).

Maybe because macross plus was recieved well by lots of people, so pumping loads of effort and money into this prequel was a logical thing for them to do?

analogy: if terminator 1 was a success despite being low budget, don;t you think it logical to make the sequel or prequel more high budget for fans of the original and for the masses and to give the talented people behind the first, more freedom to do what they wish?

If they only wanted to make an isolated OVA series they could´ve made a plain and simple OVA series with the same old elements without including the Protoculture or the Unification and Anti-UN war in it.

It would be pretty boring (storywise) without some "major crisis event" like the UNG struggle between Anti-UN imo. There has to be something to challenge our heroes for thier to be some cool "survive by just a moment to spare" action scenes. Realise too that technology is an important part of how humans got so advanced to be able to challenge the Zentradi by the start of SW I. I'm starting to believe now that the "transformation" of mechs is a motif that relates to the "transformation/evolution" of living organisms on that island. The "flying fish", the "swimming birds" etc These are animals not limited by their native environments thanks to evolution giving them extra abilities - like the valkyrie which swims, flies, and walks. Not limited by the environment. Technology meeting nature.

In combat a pilot of a transformable mech must understand that in order to beat his opponent he must learn to adapt to his style of fighting to the environment like those animals shown in the "nature channel" scenes. It's a beautiful way to show how technology can be influenced by nature and so forth. I read somewhere that the variable sweep wings on f14 were inspired by how birds can alter wing shape during flight to adapt to the situation, giving the plane more flexibility. By going back to nature in macross zero, we see a kind of "evolution" of the early valkyrie design and where it could have been inspired from. It was presented very nicely.

Also to me, the overall background of Roy (popular character from the original) and his inability to express genuine feelings to the girl he likes even though he is this great womanising man who you wouldn't suspect is a shy person, shows us the hidden side of the character that we didn't see in sdf macross. The girl Roy likes actually makes him nervous and weak at the knees - he was just as insecure as Hikaru was at the start of macross. This is a more honest view of who roy was than the taunting Jock we all know from SDF:Macross.

All of this small stuff is very relevent to fans and details like gravity control system being used and the witnessing of folding must have seemed like mysterious events to humans when first viewed. It would be like finding out that aliens/ancient astronauts really DID exist and that nothing was myth as told by mainstream science but instead historical fact. And it wouldn't surprise me that government would want to cover it up and keep all the best secrets to themselves and revealing information to the public until absolutely necessary. (not only for security to protect people but for power so they can research it for themselves to make the best weapons and destroy the competition)

For a good real world example read about the desruction of archealogical evidence in iraq:

http://www.conspiracynewsnet.com/shadow.html

(scroll down to the "The Iraqi Mandaean Conspiracy" story.)

True or not, it makes for some great sci-fi.

:D Make up your own mind about what you think is relevant to fans of macross, but I say kawamori is just extending his original "ancient astornauts/atlanteans seeded humantiy" idea from DYRL "Protoculture" to me is a topic that links the ancient (advanced) past with the future technological present. (with the secrecy of government cover-ups and power struggle against a paranoid opposition not trusting of the establishment)

Protoculture is a topic that really bridges that gap of events from 1999 to the first Main Gun blast that started the whole space war. The character Aries is like the Mulder character from the xfiles and is searching for truth in a world of lies. These are interesting characters. Much more deep than the cliched macross plus ones imo.

Edited March 18, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

I'm starting to believe now that the "transformation" of mechs is a motif that relates to the "transformation/evolution" of living organisms on that island. The "flying fish", the "swimming birds" etc These are animals not limited by their native environments thanks to evolution giving them extra abilities - like the valkyrie which swims, flies, and walks. Not limited by the environment. Technology meeting nature.

In Macross Zero there is a tao-like metaphor. The sky and the sea (wind and water, "feng shui") represent male and female principles. The love-letter spears were made imagining mixing the sea and the sky, becoming kind of a sexual metaphor. Flying fishes and swimming birds are, in their way, the yin in the yang and the yang in the yin, but especially they are a metaphor of love between a man and a woman longing for each other yet at the end being two worlds apart.

In the second episode Kate instructed Shin to feel his opponent's heart, and at the end Aries talked about love. Love was one of the main theme of Macross Zero.

I think tying flying fishes and swimming birds to Valkyries is over-thinking

Who?? Wha?? I looked at the picture but I can't say I ever noticed it in the show, nor heard the name of that character. Wow, I have the entire show on video (including most of the "extended" episodes with the deleted scenes restored), but I obviously need to rewatch it!! Round about what part do they appear?

It appears only in episode 13. The ruler of Freid may not be always be considered a "duke". In Italian AFAIK he was considered a prince.

FV

Edited March 17, 2005 by Final Vegeta

[Pat Payne]

I think tying flying fishes and swimming birds to Valkyries is over-thinking

I agree. Maybe, in the context of the OAV it has a place, but I'm pretty sure that when the whole shebang started in 1979, Kawamori's thoughts ran more to: "OK, now what kind of gimmick can we use to sell this series and out-Gundam Gundam?"

Edited March 17, 2005 by Pat Payne

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think tying flying fishes and swimming birds to Valkyries is over-thinking

Well in the episode with shin diving with mao to see the treasure, he notices along the way: birds swimming and the flying fishes, then during the bit where he fights the octos you see like a split second "flashback" of the various undersea creatures, (shin is thinking about them as he fights the octos you see, very relevent in the context of combating something which is specialised for underwater tasks: ie the octos) and then a moment later shin (after thinking about these creatures from his journey) quickly transforms into battroid mode JUST as the octos tries to snatch the "nose" of his plane. I rewinded this to see what was going on in this sequence because it happens quickly, but the idea of "transforming to suit the environment and situation" plays an important part to how the valkyrie inherits all the abilities of the creatures in nature. The octos screws ups its snatch attempt (it has two manipulator arms to carry things and was using these to grab the bird-human piece) and shin makes his move while it is vulnerable. A plane cannont enter a physical fight against a robot with limbs up close. But a battroid with limbs can. It would not have worked if he was not quick, but it saved his life. As he fights the octos you see quick flashes to images of these undersea creatures that were just shown a while earlier to remind us that shin is learning from nature.

In short: you're right, but I think I'm right too.

The "feelings" doesn't just have to do with emotional feelings, but can also refer to "feeling" your enemy out in combat and predicting thier behaviour and mode of attack just as they do it. This applies even to Shin's fight against Sara: knowing what your enemy is feeling may allow you to disarm them if you don't wish to harm them while defending yourself. The emotion he had when reminded of loss of his parents was what clouded his vision and turned him into a "Kadun" for a moment. The kaduns of anger, sadness, and fear were "possessing" or "manipulating" him, until he opened his heart up and personally "transformed" himself to stop letting those "evil" emotions control and rule him. It's a spiritual battle against personal demons for control of your body, and once you lose, you become bitter like that Albino-haired chick and transform into a "monster" which the Bird Human is programmed to terminate based on how much hate there is in the person. Else the bird would have destoryed Shin and the world along with it.

Watch the scene with the butch lady, (and how she can see what is on shin's mind and "feel" what moves he is most likely to pull, and also roy's references to "adapting to the situation" as he tutors shin about the weakness of just using one mode of the valkyrie. Shin only got his ass kicked by the albino-headed ace because he was so damn predictable and easy to manipulate and thus, predict his moves in combat. That's why she was taunting him in combat because she could see what his moves were he didn't open his instinctive "feelings" up in combat (similar to Luke relying on the force in A new Hope) and only relied on his ability in fighter. The very first episode where Shin gets shot down by her after she transformed into battroid should have taught the sucker to not fall for the same trick twice. Only until shin used all 3 modes (an unexpected behaviour pattern that the ace could not have predicted) did he start to turn the dogfight around. He does a little gerwalk kick on the canopy of the enemy to lift himself up like in a game of mario bros. where you stomp on your opponent's head to jump higher.

Also I think another anime best sums up this "feeling out your enemy" idea: Ninja Scroll. At the end the old man talks about having actually manipulated the hero right from the beginning of the movie into joining him in his secret mission because he systematically appealed to the hero's willingness to help others by poisoning him so that he could get close to the poison-tasting woman (who had not known love before). The ninja's goal is to predict what is going to happen, read what others are going to do(studying thier behaviour), and manipulate them so that you are in control. (just like today's spies correct?) But the one thing that was missing was the genuine feelings that come from the heart when people are in love. So he chose the poison that would force the hero and the woman to come together to help him get the villain. The old man would not have been able to do this without

A knowing what the woman was up to (reading thier feelings, studying behaviour)

B knowing that Jubei was skilled enough by observing the fights from a hidden place

C using manipulative tactics to get what he wanted. (poisoning)

All of this is in context of combat (understanding the enemy and yourself) as much as it refers to love. (the "heart"; which governs how the hero will behave under certain "forced" conditions, conditions that are set up by the spying old man to get what he wants from the beginning of course.)

It might seem irrelevent now but I find that nature inspires technologies and gives ideas. The variable sweep wings are like that of how bird manipulates thier own wings, so the transformation of the valkyrie in combat are like that of the way certain creatures in nature learn to survive by inheriting characteristics to go anywhere from evolution in nature. (these might be the genetic manipulation the PC was carrying out) If you watch that episode carefully you will see that I'm not making this up, shin "remembers" (through a flashback) what he saw down in the ocean and "copies" them, getting an idea to fight underwater with the valk to kill the octos so the bird-human fragment could get away to safety. Why fight against nature when you can just adapt to it, use it to your advantage, and use less effort to get what you need? There is no reason why a mech shouldn't match the abilities of

humans: fighting giant zentradi through the use of a battroid's giant arms and legs to manipulate giant-sized objects,

birds: (fighters),

fish, (if needs be it can fight octos underwater)

and it's this idea that brings valkyrie more towards an "all-environment" vehicle that adapts to whatever the aliens can throw at humans when they finally arrive. If they are going to mass-produce the right weapon to fight them, it better be something that can do many tasks by itself or it risks weaknesses that don't allow for the defense against aliens who they have barely any strategic information about. This is probably what the PC were preparing humans for. Evolution kills off those that are weak, and strengthens those that are strong by introducing advantageous "mistakes" in nature (can be in the form of a mutation or a "disease" or whatever) that may be helpful to a future species survival for that particular environment they are competing with rival organisms in. (for food, resources, control or whatever) Not all mutations are advantageous to survival but it at least ensures biodiversity for the future if one species is weak against certain things risking extinction of that whole species. (like how pesticides might not work forever on an pest once that species adapts to the poison, making it immune)

The valkyrie then, can be seen as the militaries' ultimate organism that stands on the top of the food chain as far as survival is concerned because it can be strong in any environment through transformation and adaptation. (it "evolved" from just fighter to giant robot to something inbetween: a bird style machine with limbs. An advantageous mutation like what happens in nature to evolve a species.)

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-fixedwing.htm

"We must admit that when it comes down to our variable sweep wing capabilities, TOMCAT is really a "Copycat"... We just hope that Mother Nature understands that copying is the sincerest form of flattery.

"We agree. Variable Sweep is for the birds... Naturally!" (Grumman)

Edited March 18, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

I agree. Maybe, in the context of the OAV it has a place, but I'm pretty sure that when the whole shebang started in 1979, Kawamori's thoughts ran more to: "OK, now what kind of gimmick can we use to sell this series and out-Gundam Gundam?"

He merged robots with planes, which were a passion of his.

That made me think of what could be a modern gimmick: a huge robot that turns into a... loli girl! Kinda like Ryoohki in Tenchi, which is a spaceship that turns into a rabbit, we have this mecha which transforms into a small girl, and maybe we should put in this anime more than a mechagirl. A harem mecha anime (a new genre: haremecha or mecharem?). No, I am just kidding

FV

[Pat Payne]

...No, I am just kidding

FV

(After hearing admission of joking, puts 2x4 of Learning away )

[Fortress_Maximus]

Wouldn't the fact that they vanished into thin air rule out the use of logic anyways?

okay.. let's say they did meet up.. would it go something like this:

Shin: so uhm, where are we?

Sara: (babbles something about kadun and look at shin with her mad face)

they wait for years and year and year and years.. and then they wait some more.

Hikaru and the Megaroad show up: Hey... uhm... where did you guys come from?

Shin: From EARTH!

Hikaru: Really?

Sara: That's a big sky bird you came in on.

Hikaru: Uhm... I guess.

Shin: never mind her.

they wait for years and years and years... and then a pod of space whales comes along with gamlin and basara all out of breath....

Hikaru and Shin: Hi...

Basara: LISTEN TO MY SONG!

the end.

Yeah, yeah, just like that! But Basara needs to sing with Minmay.

Minmei would bitch slap him and then kick his arse!

I can hear her shouting, "Listen you untalented American Idol reject, no one but no ONE crowds in one me when I alone sing! I stopped an entire war with MY singing! WTF did you do that puts you in my league?!"

[Fortress_Maximus]

Sidenote, I completely agree with 1/LVLurkers analysis about nature, adaption and the evolution of both Shins ability and what is to come with the Zentradi. You used some excellent comparisons and connections that are easily overlooked. Thanks for sharing.

[MGREXX]

I am all for a second series, but Kawamori needs to stay away from the bong this time around.

[NoSuchFile]

I can't see how or why they'd make a follow-up to Zero, it ended in the most final version imaginable, Shin is gone and what follows the war over Mayan is Space War 1, where Mayan including the vast majority of the earth are blown up

[Aegis!]

I can't see how or why they'd make a follow-up to Zero, it ended in the most final version imaginable, Shin is gone and what follows the war over Mayan is Space War 1, where Mayan including the vast majority of the earth are blown up     

You´ve gotta think outside the OVA´s plot and focus in the background reasons for an OVA production like Zero.

Why,considering it was the 20th anniversary of macross , did they only make ONE production ? why so much support from Bandai and the other production companies for only ONE production ?

Why didn´t we see something like the 15th anniversary when they made an OVA , a Movie and a TV series ?

isn´t it suspicious that they only made Zero given such an important date ? and right after the renewal of macross with Yamato´s toys ?

Edited April 3, 2005 by Aegis!

[Prime]

I can't see how or why they'd make a follow-up to Zero, it ended in the most final version imaginable, Shin is gone and what follows the war over Mayan is Space War 1, where Mayan including the vast majority of the earth are blown up

That's the way I see it. The Zero story seems more or less complete as it is. I wouldn't mind seeing a new series that perhaps covers the events of another colonization fleet. But this time without guitar valkyries battling birdmen...

[Dr Kain]

Well I finally got to see all 5 episodes, and it was very disappointing. This series should not have been allowed to be called Macross, nor have Roy in it. It would have worked out better as some other series, maybe, but not as a Macross series. I am very pissed and it was definitely not worth waiting 2 years for the entire thing to be out. The ending was crap, it did not show any signs of leading up to the arrival of the Zentran, or even about the completion of the Macross itself. Not to mention Alice got a fatal injury off screen, which made no sense. I for one think Kawamori should just leave Macross alone as it is. Heck, in some ways, I think the original series should have stayed the only series.

For me, Macross Zero gets:

Visually, 5/5

Soundtrack, 5/5

Plot, 2/5

Characters, 1/5

[Zentrandude]

The series would been better they added another one that just have roy running around in his valk getting drunk and fondling various women. Then cut to young minmay trying to sing but is very bad and everyone says shes horrible to her face, then roy flies in gropes her then flys out. Then cuts to the zentrans for exactly 3 seconds doing nothing and in complete silience.

[Keith]

I honestly don't know what you were expecting to be so dissapointed. Macross has always been anti-war, & always had ambiguous endings,.

[Renato]

Why didn´t we see something like the 15th anniversary when they made an OVA , a Movie and a TV series ?

That wasn't the 15th anniversary, it was the 10th (of DYRL).

[Renato]

Not to mention Alice got a fatal injury off screen, which made no sense.

It's "Aries".

[Prime]

Not to mention Alice got a fatal injury off screen, which made no sense.

It's "Aries".

Must have been a bad sub.

Perhaps Roy was still in Scar Squadron.

[Goshawk]

ok question on Macross 0, Shin and Fokker are on the carrier and while they are talking Fokker tells Shin

"It looks very good. From the way it is made, we can tell thier tech level of skills. But the VF-0, isn't the same as what they made in the past."

So my dumb question here is, What and who the heck is he talking about? LOL At that point I am totaly lost.

[wolfx]

ok question on Macross 0, Shin and Fokker are on the carrier and while they are talking Fokker tells Shin

"It looks very good. From the way it is made, we can tell thier tech level of skills. But the VF-0, isn't the same as what they made in the past."

So my dumb question here is, What and who the heck is he talking about? LOL At that point I am totaly lost.

Don't remember this....bad subs?

[Goshawk]

It was during the second show, close to the begining right when Shin got back on the Carrier, Shin was standing next to a VF-0 and thats when Fokker walked up to talk to him. It was right after Aries was talking to anouther doc in the containment area. thats the best I can explain. lol

[azrael]

Focker was referring to all the older planes (F-14s, F/A-18s, etc). You might have a bad sub though. Focker was referring to how the VF-0 handles compared to the normal planes (i.e. it transforms, it's all-environment, etc)

[Dr Kain]

I honestly don't know what you were expecting to be so dissapointed. Macross has always been anti-war, & always had ambiguous endings,.

It IS Aries? I thought the subs botched that up because it sure sounded like Arisu to me, which would translate to Alice. We can argue on this for hours though.

Anyway, what was I expecting? Something Macross! Not some stupid supernatural crap. I love supernatural stories, but it does not belong in the Macross world. This would have made a better Arjuna story. Not to mention I couldn't help but think of the girl from RahXephon every time I saw Mao.

Anyway, like I said, visually and musically, this was one hot series. Not as good as Gankutsuou in that department, but certain up there as one of the best.

Unfortunately, even the visuals cannot save this series from its dumb plot, if you can call it that. From pretty worthless characters to a bad plot killed the whole thing for me. I understand you need to make new characters, but no one was allowed to develop enough. Shinn had devloped somewhat, but not enough to make me care about him when he disappeared. Same went for Sara. And then those two villian dudes were bland and I found myself cheering when Alice/Aries died. I constantly kept looking at the running time of each episode to see how long it had left to go because I was bored.

I usually do not compare things, but comparing the Mayan themes used in this and RahXephon, RahXephon just totally creams Zero in everything but animation.

Enough ranting though.

[azrael]

It IS Aries?  I thought the subs botched that up because it sure sounded like Arisu to me, which would translate to Alice.  We can argue on this for hours though.

It is Aries...

http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/t/...ries/index.html

Anyway, what was I expecting?  Something Macross!  Not some stupid supernatural crap.  I love supernatural stories, but it does not belong in the Macross world. 

Now that's a bunch of......Who are you to say that? Just because you've never seen it in Macross doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's got VFs. That alone makes it Macross.

Edited April 6, 2005 by azrael

[Aegis!]

I honestly don't know what you were expecting to be so dissapointed. Macross has always been anti-war, & always had ambiguous endings,.

It IS Aries? I thought the subs botched that up because it sure sounded like Arisu to me, which would translate to Alice. We can argue on this for hours though.

Anyway, what was I expecting? Something Macross! Not some stupid supernatural crap. I love supernatural stories, but it does not belong in the Macross world. This would have made a better Arjuna story. Not to mention I couldn't help but think of the girl from RahXephon every time I saw Mao.

Anyway, like I said, visually and musically, this was one hot series. Not as good as Gankutsuou in that department, but certain up there as one of the best.

Unfortunately, even the visuals cannot save this series from its dumb plot, if you can call it that. From pretty worthless characters to a bad plot killed the whole thing for me. I understand you need to make new characters, but no one was allowed to develop enough. Shinn had devloped somewhat, but not enough to make me care about him when he disappeared. Same went for Sara. And then those two villian dudes were bland and I found myself cheering when Alice/Aries died. I constantly kept looking at the running time of each episode to see how long it had left to go because I was bored.

I usually do not compare things, but comparing the Mayan themes used in this and RahXephon, RahXephon just totally creams Zero in everything but animation.

Enough ranting though.

I´m sorry your misinformed presumptions lead you to believe Macross Zero was a rehash of SDF Macross , cause it WAS NOT.

Perhaps if you checked this site more often when Macross Zero was first announced and Kawamori formaly presented it in various interviews you would know the background facts leading to Macross Zero´s plot.

First of all , Kawamori said from the begining that Macross Zero was not going to be just a prelude to SW1 but actually a glimpse at the Protoculture´s role in humans fate.

It wasn´t intended to show the ¨missing parts¨ of SDF Macross , but to present a brand new story. If you expected a direct prequel to Macross then you just fooled yourself.

If you didn´t like what was shown in M0 then you should really re-watch the TV series again since most of its basis is there.

I can´t believe people can´t accept floating rocks in Macross Zero , which is explained clearly as an effect to the AFOS presence and alongside no one critics the TV series for floating objects when the SDF-1 folds to space...that´s a seriously bias

Did you seriously expect the protoculture to be lame humans beings with no special skills ? do you forget they had millions of years of evolution , they made the Zentradis , Zolans and Humans without hassle , they travelled through the whole galaxy (or universe ) ,etc... And you foolishly didn´t expect supernatural elements ?

I´ve seen a trend from macross fans ( particularly those detractors of newer series ) in which they do nothing but plead for a Macross rehash , is these a Gundam fan derived sindrome or do they not watch other anime ?