the complete court case of big west v.s. tatsunoko

[rickzero]

hey guys i need to know the complete information of the court proceedings of the copyrights between tatsunoko and bigwest/studio nue. especially the court number this very important!!!

[Agent ONE]

There is already a thread for this:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=153

[Radd]

I really reccomend going through that whole thread to get the information you need. I know it seems daunting, but it's a daunting situation.

Anyways, here's some links that may help, if even a little.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature.php?id=117

This is an update and a retraction of their initial, poorly researched article on the topic. Take it with a grain of salt.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=164

The above is a thread I created on another forum that basically rounds up the most pertinent information from the thread Agent ONE pointed you at. However, I'm only human and I may have missed things, and I most definitely clouded the information with my own personal bias. Check anything you get from that against other sources.

http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/cl2_1.html

Some Japanese copyright information that may or may not come in handy.

http://protoculture.lebhead.com/

Lebhead's site because...well...anyone looking into Macross and Robotech should at least get the basics on the two. If anything, you can point others there. When it's back up, that is. It seems to be down at the time of this post.

I'm certain there was something else I was going to say, or some other link. Oh, right, Big West's official statement:

http://www.macross.co.jp/macross/contents/index.html

There ya go.

[rickzero]

thanks man this really gives me a more detail inside of the whole case, i need this for a class project and chose the macross case and i have everything i need except for one thing, that is the court case number that was issued by the Tokyo High Court. This needs to be presented in front to the class and its bacically the last thing I need. so please my macross companions, i ask for your help.

[Zentrandude]

if you want the clip notes here it comes.

everybody loses

[cobywan]

Clif notes.

[JB0]

Cliff notes.

[ewilen]

thanks man this really gives me a more detail inside of the whole case, i need this for a class project and chose the macross case and i have everything i need except for one thing, that is the court case number that was issued by the Tokyo High Court.  This needs to be presented in front to the class and its bacically the last thing I need.      so please my macross companions, i ask for your help.

Which case?

There are three cases, if I recall correctly.

Big West vs. Tatsunoko Productions is the one that was ultimately won by BW, resulting in BW having copyright on the line art for SDF Macross.

Tatsunoko vs. Big West is the one that was ultimately won by TP, resulting TP having copyright on the SDF Macross TV series.

Tatsunoko vs. Bandai et. al. is the one that AFAIK was won by Bandai/BW, resulting in TP being unable to claim ownership of the Macross trademark. (There may have been a separate case on a related issue, with the same outcome.)

Note that, in appeals, the loser of the original case becomes the plaintiff. So the appeal of BW vs. TP at the Tokyo District Court level became TP vs. BW at the Tokyo High Court level.

Can you read Japanese?

I would strongly suggest reading the article in IP/Cyberlaw Watch, Autumn 2003, which you can find in English on this page: http://www.maxlaw.co.jp/e/ipclw/ It is a bit out of date, though, as some of the cases hadn't been fully litigated yet at the time it was written.

I would avoid, or at least take with a grain of salt, the "Plight of the Valkyrie" articles by the Hobbylink Japan owner. They were written early in the process, before all the issues had been separated clearly, and they contain several important errors.

I also wouldn't take anything written by wrylac or BankofKev as the final word on any issue.

After reading the references that have been posted here, if you have any more questions, you might want to post them in the license debate thread.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Something else to add, just to be fair.

Harmony Gold is neither mentioned nor referenced to in the court cases. This has nothing to do with them. Whether or not BW and HG sue each other at a later date is irrelevant to this case, and is sheer speculation on the part of anyone.

[ewilen]

I almost completely agree with that, except that in the line art case, BW does ask for an injunction against TP using the line art in new animations, or causing a third party to do the same. This may be an oblique reference to Harmony Gold.

(The court denied the injunction on the grounds that there wasn't any reason to believe that TP was going to do so. And indeed it does not appear that HG has ever created new animation based on the character and mecha designs from Macross, nor does it seem likely that they will do so.)

[1st Border Red Devil]

I almost completely agree with that, except that in the line art case, BW does ask for an injunction against TP using the line art in new animations, or causing a third party to do the same. This may be an oblique reference to Harmony Gold.

I wonder if that included the Modified Zentraedi Battlepods from The Sentinels. Technically they are different and reminescent of the Battlepod. However, the Ishkick and many of the mecha from Orguss are reminescent of the Battlepod just as it is reminescent of the AT-ST.

[ewilen]

Speaking as a non-expert in copyright law, I would guess not. Mainly because HG apparently took pains in the Sentinels not to use the line art from Macross. So the modified battlepods were probably at least a reasonably-good-faith effort to avoid creating something that could be legally considered a copy or derivative of the Regult line art.

My guess is that "reminiscent" isn't enough to qualify as a copyright violation, though exactly what does qualify is probably a very complex issue.

Edit: on second thought (and after some searching), it appears that the criterion is "substantial similarity" combined with intent (i.e., some proof that the accused had seen the alleged "original" and intended to base his work on it). If that's correct, then the modified battlepods probably would be seen as a derivative. But the case wouldn't be clearcut for a variety of reasons, which would open the way to a legal war of attrition and a settlement, as with Superman vs. Captain Marvel.

Edited March 9, 2005 by ewilen

[Aegis!]

Speaking as a non-expert in copyright law, I would guess not. Mainly because HG apparently took pains in the Sentinels not to use the line art from Macross. So the modified battlepods were probably at least a reasonably-good-faith effort to avoid creating something that could be legally considered a copy or derivative of the Regult line art.

My guess is that "reminiscent" isn't enough to qualify as a copyright violation, though exactly what does qualify is probably a very complex issue.

Edit: on second thought (and after some searching), it appears that the criterion is "substantial similarity" combined with intent (i.e., some proof that the accused had seen the alleged "original" and intended to base his work on it). If that's correct, then the modified battlepods probably would be seen as a derivative. But the case wouldn't be clearcut for a variety of reasons, which would open the way to a legal war of attrition and a settlement, as with Superman vs. Captain Marvel.

meh..the bastards...we´ll never get anything out of them , as usual.

[Pat Payne]

Also, guys, if we start to emulate the thread that woun't die , Max Jenius and his goon squad's gonna break it up and lock it sooner rather than later.

Finally, is it me, or is that modified battlepod just fugly and so very wrong?

Edited March 9, 2005 by Pat Payne

[Gui]

It's not just you...

[1st Border Red Devil]

Geez...everyone is a critic. Fine...here is the cleaned up version done by Kevin Long.

Anyway, speaking of this design and how far copyright goes, I know in the music industry (cause I used do music editing for a band on MP3.com before the bastards running the site sold out!), the scale is measured at about 20%. You can essentially 'sample' and get away with using another song if its at least 20% different from the original. Rearrange the notes and stuff and you can do it.

I know this because their Musicology department claimed we had sampled a song (which we had not) because the notes sounded similar.

Now, whether its like that in the entertainment industry or not, Im not sure. I imagine that the film industry is alot more liberal in this direction. What the law is for Japanese copyright in this direction is a complete mystery.

To further confound matters, this design is officially 20 yrs old as of now. There is also the fact that Big West dealt with Palladium Books when the lattter acquired the Macross II RPG license (I asked Maryann Siembieda) and so the likelihood of Big West (or at least their lawyers) being totally ignorant of Robotech and its sequel is much in doubt. If the design was a complete violation of their rights, why didn't they go after Harmony Gold earlier?

[ewilen]

I didn't say it was a complete violation of Big West's rights, just that the modified battlepod would probably be considered a derivative of the Regult. But there are a bunch of reasons why a lawsuit wouldn't be clearcut, especially nowadays. You've mentioned at least one of them; another is that we really don't know the precise rights that were granted to TP in the memorandum between BW and TP, nor do we know exactly what TP gave HG--since all of that is in contracts whose exact wording remains secret.

[Godzilla]

Geez...everyone is a critic. Fine...here is the cleaned up version done by Kevin Long.

Anyway, speaking of this design and how far copyright goes, I know in the music industry (cause I used do music editing for a band on MP3.com before the bastards running the site sold out!), the scale is measured at about 20%. You can essentially 'sample' and get away with using another song if its at least 20% different from the original. Rearrange the notes and stuff and you can do it.

I know this because their Musicology department claimed we had sampled a song (which we had not) because the notes sounded similar.

Now, whether its like that in the entertainment industry or not, Im not sure. I imagine that the film industry is alot more liberal in this direction. What the law is for Japanese copyright in this direction is a complete mystery.

To further confound matters, this design is officially 20 yrs old as of now. There is also the fact that Big West dealt with Palladium Books when the lattter acquired the Macross II RPG license (I asked Maryann Siembieda) and so the likelihood of Big West (or at least their lawyers) being totally ignorant of Robotech and its sequel is much in doubt. If the design was a complete violation of their rights, why didn't they go after Harmony Gold earlier?

Did it grow a pair of arms? Man, I need to go home and look up this on the Robotech Art 3. Talk about un-originality.

[terry the lone wolf]

I like it; looks like a cross between the Regult and Orguss. Was this mecha in the Sentinels role playing handbook or Robotech Art 3?

[1st Border Red Devil]

I like it; looks like a cross between the Regult and Orguss. Was this mecha in the Sentinels role playing handbook or Robotech Art 3?

That particular one is from Kevin Long. Its a colourized version of what appeared in the Robotech II: The Sentinels RPG. The real test of whether or not this mecha is viable may come out in Shadow Chronicles....or it may not. I don't know if this was among those item's from The Sentinels that was retained. I personally like the design, but I think it would be far better to have it as an enemy mecha than an allied human one. That, and reduce it from the 17m height to something a micronized alien could pilot.