3 Million Pledged to save Enterprise!

[Zentrandude]

As pathetically lame as I think Star Trek fans are, I can't help but notice that I am a member of this one fansite of this 20 year old cartoon that really only had one good show and one good movie, then one other good movie that was pretty much disconnected. In fact most people in the country that this particular series comes from don't even know what it is. So it kinda makes me a hipocrate picking on Trek fans.

nah you would be a trekie if they put in aliens pumping up iron and running around mocking humans they eat too much fast food. thats just good tv.

[VF-19]

Well, make that two people who like Enterprise (me! ). While I'm sad the show is going to go off the air in a little while, it has been getting better, story wise.

Besides, Paramount shot themselves in the foot with Enterprise: Limited advertising, putting it on a (relatively) minor channel (UPN), putting sports on over Enterprise's time slot, and perhaps a hugely overinflated budget for the show. And now when the show is actually VERY good, nobody watches it.

But still, managing to raise $3 million is impressive.

[Jemstone]

Geez, guess I'm the only one around who likes Enterprise. And no I'm not a rabid fan or anything, but some of these comments are fairly obnoxious.

So we're supposed to cure cancer and give money to the Tsunami relief effort and not 'waste' it on Star Trek. That's reasonable. Macross is a whole lot more important than curing Caner and sending aid to Natural Disatser victims.

Stop talking backhandedly like a damn cheapp and uptight Trekkie fan. Obnoxious? Looks at your own retarded post. My point wasn't that money SHOULD go to cure cancer or the tsunami relief fund (as if you were NOT referring to my post!!) but that it's unbelievable that so much money would get spent for such a cause. The word wasted was YOUR word choice. I simply stated I don't see how they could have raised that much money without some kind of bake sale or shadey tactics. And yes, anyone willing to gather so juch for a TV show does need to GET A LIFE!!!!

[Feyd-Rautha]

Geez, guess I'm the only one around who likes Enterprise. And no I'm not a rabid fan or anything, but some of these comments are fairly obnoxious.

So we're supposed to cure cancer and give money to the Tsunami relief effort and not 'waste' it on Star Trek. That's reasonable. Macross is a whole lot more important than curing Caner and sending aid to Natural Disatser victims.

What do you care if people like a show you don't? Or if they want to raise money to keep it going? I'm not trying to be thin skinned, but the hair trigger trashing and bashing really isn't that neccassary. I have an urge to jump in every thread about anything and say 'that sucks', 'that's lame', 'why would they make that shyyt?' 'What a waste of of money' and other insightful, freindly comments.

You want to talk about a lame waste of money?

The salary of Jim Carey, Adam Sandler or Will Smith get for one film.

The salary of any NY Yankee/Boston Red Sox player for a season.

All reality TV shows. (i.e. American idol, survivor, the Paris Hilton show etc. etc.)

All music videos, especially rap.

Well, I'll stop there, but that list is just about endless. Now I'm gonna go make a Paypal donation to save Enterprise just to piss Feyd-Rautha off.

thanx

[Major Johnathan]

Sorry Gemstone, but you certainly seem to imply not spending the money on a 'worthy' cause is a waste. Why is raising money shadey tactics? A trio of rich aerospace guys put up the 3 million, are they not allowed to do that, or is it that they're not putting into a Macross fund?

And this 'get a life' thing, that's funny... There's no geek factor involved in being a Macross fan though?

I seem to recall it was our founding father, Shawn himself, who wrote a caption for a group picture at the first MW convention that said, "We've learned to embrace our geeky-ness, have you?" So quit being a poser, we're all geeks here, and usually proud of it.

[Jemstone]

Sorry Gemstone, but you certainly seem to imply not spending the money on a 'worthy' cause is a waste. Why is raising money shadey tactics?  A trio of rich aerospace guys put up the 3 million, are they not allowed to do that, or is it that they're not putting into a Macross fund?

  And this 'get a life' thing, that's funny...   There's no geek factor involved in being a Macross fan though?

  I seem to recall it was our founding father, Shawn himself, who wrote a caption for a group picture at the first MW convention that said, "We've learned to embrace our geeky-ness, have you?" So quit being a poser, we're all geeks here, and usually proud of it.

Ignoramus. Can you not read? I don't need to "imply' anything. I tell you what I think. I don't think it's waste of money. My original post said they could have only made that much by using shadey tactics. Not that raising the money was shadey tactic, you damned fool. Trekkies raising money does not surprise me like any fanboy clan. That much does surprise me and I said I don't believe it. To raise THAT much just for a TV show that had horrible writing among a plethora of continuity issues, yeah, they need a life. If it emans that much to them why not just BUY the freaking license and produce their own show.

Do not DARE compare me to a (a Macross fan on MW) trekkie fan. Not even in the same league.

It's Jemstone for your reading impaired brain.

EDIT: I am seriously curious what your definition of a "poser" is. I find it odd you'd icnlude me as a "fangirl" when just about everyone knows just how much I despise most "fanboys" and "geekisms" Just ask Eriku, Myk and Mr Disco to name a few.

Edited March 3, 2005 by Jemstone

[Zentrandude]

I don't see why you guys are fighting about someone elses money. if whoever wanted to blow 3mill on fake vomit more power to him but arguing about the past won't help any. Btw Tsunami relief effort doesn't need money they got plenty what they need is mofos like all of you to volunteer, give blood, give sperm, who cares do something other than give money that only 5 cents of a dollar goes to them.

[Jemstone]

I don't see why you guys are fighting about someone elses money. if whoever wanted to blow 3mill on fake vomit more power to him but arguing about the past won't help any. Btw Tsunami relief effort doesn't need money they got plenty what they need is mofos like all of you to volunteer, give blood, give sperm, who cares do something other than give money that only 5 cents of a dollar goes to them.

I'm not fighting. Just setting idiots who can't read straight.

[Duke Togo]

LOL, just ran across the ending of Enterprise on AICN. This series is NOT coming back, they pretty much killed any chances of that.

Man, trekkies aren't going to be happy with this one, LOL.

[Panon]

LOL, just ran across the ending of Enterprise on AICN. This series is NOT coming back, they pretty much killed any chances of that.

That part about it guaranteeing the show couldn't come back is false, by the way.

The episode is structured so that if by some miracle a fifth season was greenlighted, this finale would not have any effect on that at all.

[Mr March]

This is Trek we're talking about here. The show that practically invented the modern dues ex machina that we know as "The Reset Button." No death is for certain in this franchise

[Major Johnathan]

Damn. You got me Jemstone, I mixed one letter with another, very embarrassing. 'emans' , 'icnlude' ? Are you sure your brain isn't a little impaired too?

What do you mean do not DARE comapre you to a 'trekkie' fan? I assume since you post here, your a Macross fan. There are strange and fanatical fans of all sorts of shows, it's not just trekkies who embarress themselves by sticking pointed ears on. I've seen some pretty frightening cosplayers for Macross too.

My definition of a poser in relation to this thread: Someone who tells a fan of one sci-fi show to 'GET A LIFE', while they themselves are presumeably a fan of a another Sci-Fi show. (You know, Macross? Hence Macross World. That's where you are if your reading this.) Is a 'cartoon' about giant transforming robots battling giant cloned humanoid aliens in outer space not potential grounds for 'GETTING A LIFE' too?

You see, most fans of Macross happen to be fans of any number of other sci-fi type shows, both live and animated. So some sayings come to mind, like' those who live in glass houses' or 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

If your offended at being thought of as a geek or 'fangirl'(YOUR word not mine), maybe you just need to lighten up. EVERYONE here is at least a little geeky or a fanboy/otaku, otherwise, what are you doing here?

By the way, no offense taken at being called an ignoramus, idiot (repeatedly) or having an impaired brain or being retarded. After all the nasty things I called you, I guess I was asking for it.

[Duke Togo]

LOL, just ran across the ending of Enterprise on AICN. This series is NOT coming back, they pretty much killed any chances of that.

That part about it guaranteeing the show couldn't come back is false, by the way.

The episode is structured so that if by some miracle a fifth season was greenlighted, this finale would not have any effect on that at all.

Denial

[Jemstone]

Damn. You got me Jemstone, I mixed one letter with another, very embarrassing. 'emans' , 'icnlude' ? Are you sure your brain isn't a little impaired too?

  What do you mean do not DARE comapre you to a 'trekkie' fan? I assume since you post here, your a Macross fan. There are strange and fanatical fans of all sorts of shows, it's not just trekkies who embarress themselves by sticking pointed ears on. I've seen some pretty frightening cosplayers for Macross too.

  My definition of a poser in relation to this thread: Someone who tells a fan of one sci-fi show to 'GET A LIFE', while they themselves are presumeably a fan of a another Sci-Fi show. (You know, Macross? Hence Macross World. That's where you are if your reading this.) Is a 'cartoon' about giant transforming robots battling giant cloned humanoid aliens in outer space not potential grounds for 'GETTING A LIFE' too?

  You see, most fans of Macross happen to be fans of any number of other sci-fi type shows, both live and animated. So some sayings come to mind, like' those who live in glass houses' or 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

  If your offended at being thought of as a geek or 'fangirl'(YOUR word not mine), maybe you just need to lighten up. EVERYONE here is at least a little geeky or a fanboy/otaku, otherwise, what are you doing here?

  By the way, no offense taken at being called an ignoramus, idiot (repeatedly) or having an impaired brain or being retarded. After all the nasty things I called you, I guess I was asking for it. 

Why should you be offended? You were being both ignorant and an idiot. You have my respect for taking it like a man and accepting your stupidity from your previous posts. You deserved what I dished out (and I was tame so not to worry to mods). Fanboys/fangirl is the same thing. It's not my term. Why would I call myself a "fanboy" if I lack the proper equipment? Basic semantics, bub.

Now there is a major difference between just being a fan and an actual "fanboy/fangirl" which is right up Otaku-dom. A fan of an aircraft (real or fictional) may want to learn how it's emchanics work and even dream of flying one some day if it's possible. The fanboy will actually not only be obsessed with it but try to rational how the fictional aircraft coudl really be created and how it could possibly exist. Never caring that such technology is quite impossible for a numbe rof reasons.

A fan will buy models (toys or kits) of something they like and even make a collection of this. The Fanboy will not only make a colelction but try to get every single one possible not for the sake of value but for the sake of owning it. If possible said fanboy will try to build one as clsoe to scale as possible.

A fan may joke or occasionally comment how "cute" an animated character (ink or polygon) is. The fanboy will be masterbating to said animated character at night, wishign to see said animated character in the buff and or/wishing the character was real to have sex with said character.

A fan will be upset, bummed, or just saddened that a favorite show is taken off the air. The fanboy will do whatever means to keep that show on (like say raising over 3 million dollars).

I can go on but that's just a few examples of differences. I see alot of fans on MW in column A (a fan) but few in column B (a fanboy). I'm in column A since while I'm a fan of many different science fiction works, my fandom does not go much beyond collecting figures (to simulate murdering everyone else and destroying the world of course ). Yet, despite that you son't see me drooling everytime a new series comes out, cosplaying as a transvestite (man Leiahs in SW premiere lines), constantly trying to point out how "cute" certain characters are, or even memorisizing whole scenes from certain animes and looking for some deep meaning within it (most Eva fans).... I'm not even close and thsoe are things seen as "acceptible" fan behavior.

No comparison from me (or anyone else on MW that I know of for that matter) to a trekkie fan who put money to revive a dead series. That would be like Keith donating his life savings to continue Macross 7 (somethign I doubt even he'd do).

So don't tell me about people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. My house is made of brick.

OH yeah edit: If typo corrections are your only form of "defense" then you really need to get your reading impaired brain some ORIGINALITY to insult someone. For a second there I almost saw the little hamsters start running and turning the wheels in your head. Almost!

Edited March 4, 2005 by Jemstone

[Hurricane29]

I'm sorry but normally shows get canned for a reason. I haven't seen Enterprise, but its about damn time those trekkie people move on, its done.

[do not disturb]

a fan = a person who enjoys a particular TV show/anime series/what have you and collects some merchandise related to the show/series.

a fanboy = a person who enjoys a particular TV show/anime series and must have anything and everything related to that show/series, this includes toys, models, books, plush, posters(or as dorks like to put them, wall scrolls), stupid accessories like lighters, keychains, shoelaces, and the extreme....matching bed sheets. but it doesn't stop there, these folks are actually dorky enough to dress up as their favorite character and run around conventions asking for autographs, jocking some no name actors, telling them how great they are....this is beyond dork-dom as far as i'm concerned.

oh, and these people usually live in the basement of their parents house but claim they got their own place since theres a seperate entrance into the basement.

[Major Johnathan]

There's millions of Star Trek fans out there. If each of them chipping in $20 or $30 can save there show from cancellation, why not, if they like it? I don't see that as being a rabid fanboy/fangirl. I never have have dressed up as anything, though I once attended a Sci-Fi convention in the early 90's in which George Takei was the featured guest. (Oh wait, I dressed up as a Stormtrooper once for halloween, I was about 5 I think.)

Basically, for the cost of a dvd, fans of Enterprsie could potentially save the show. Seems worth it to me, since I'm a fan. I'd pay that much or more for an interesting new Macross, or other anime, series/oav/movie. On top of that, if it worked, fans could actually take shows away from studios and networks who invariably screw with any show they own.

And all the stuff (models, books and dvd's etc.) I have for the Sci-fi and anime series I like would fit in the trunk of my car, so hopefully that means I haven't gone of the deep end yet.

And Jemstone, I only pointed out your typo's because you referred to me as having an impaired brain for getting one letter wrong, check any of your recent posts and you'll find you made mistakes too. But I wasn't pointing them out since it would be a bit rude and hypocritical since most humans make mistakes.

[Jemstone]

There's millions of Star Trek fans out there. If each of them chipping in $20 or $30 can save there show from cancellation, why not, if they like it? I don't see that as being a rabid fanboy/fangirl. I never have have dressed up as anything, though I once attended a Sci-Fi convention in the early 90's in which George Takei was the featured guest. (Oh wait, I dressed up as a Stormtrooper once for halloween, I was about 5 I think.)

  Basically, for the cost of a dvd, fans of Enterprsie could potentially save the show. Seems worth it to me, since I'm a fan. I'd pay that much or more for an interesting new Macross, or other anime, series/oav/movie. On top of that, if it worked, fans could actually take shows away from studios and networks who invariably screw with any show they own.

  And all the stuff (models, books and dvd's etc.) I have for the Sci-fi and anime series I like would fit in the trunk of my car, so hopefully that means I haven't gone of the deep end yet.

  And Jemstone, I only pointed out your typo's because you referred to me as having an impaired brain for getting one letter wrong,  check any of your recent posts and you'll find you made mistakes too. But I wasn't pointing them out since it would be a bit rude and hypocritical since most humans make mistakes.

You silly, silly man. When my comment was made it was not for just one letter but your OVERALL LACK OF READING MY POST TO MAKE IT SOME KIND OF PRO TSUNAMI RELIEF DONATION!!! Basically completely twisting what I said into something else and putting words in my mouth! Your reading comprehension skills were weak and that's why I said that comment.

Had nothing to do with just one letter or a few typo or grammatical errors. Do you FINALLY understand now? Oh wait, you're still gabbering on and on. So you don't. I will sum up everything nicely for you then.

Major Johnathan, please, please ,please get a life (the phrase which agitated and offended you so). You can start by just giving up this futile quest to prove you aren't a fanboy. Whetehr you're a fanboy or fall into "accptible fan behavior" for cosplaying or just a sympathizer for the trekkies... I don't care. I just don't give a damn.

EDIT: You're a pretty thin skinned guy, aren't you?

Edited March 4, 2005 by Jemstone

[Duke Togo]

There's millions of Star Trek fans out there. If each of them chipping in $20 or $30 can save there show from cancellation, why not, if they like it?

That's just really sad. I'm sorry, has to be said, its pretty damned disturbing.

[Jemstone]

There's millions of Star Trek fans out there. If each of them chipping in $20 or $30 can save there show from cancellation, why not, if they like it?

That's just really sad. I'm sorry, has to be said, its pretty damned disturbing.

Don't say that!!! You might hurt his feelings!

[do not disturb]

There's millions of Star Trek fans out there. If each of them chipping in $20 or $30 can save there show from cancellation, why not, if they like it?

That's just really sad. I'm sorry, has to be said, its pretty damned disturbing.

Don't say that!!! You might hurt his feelings!

well then, i'll say it.....

thats just really sad.....next stop, loserville!

[UN Spacy]

Back on track.

I'm gonna miss seeing T'Pol cute little bum.

[Magnus]

Goddammit Jemstone, the hell is wrong with you? Do you not know how to disagree but be civil about it at the same time? Way to nuke my thread.

Edited March 4, 2005 by Magnus

[Zentrandude]

Goddammit Jemstone, the hell is wrong with you? Do you not know how to disagree but be civil about it at the same time? Way to nuke my thread.

lol she can be raw at times

nothing wrong with being a trek fan or a starwars fan or even a blind rowboat echi fan if we look at our selves that we all belong to the macross boards and that has to say something.

[Major Johnathan]

Okay, okay, I'm a pathetic geek residing in Loserville. I didn't realize all the cool people would be lurking around in a START TREK thread... apparently that's what the cool folks do, hang around waiting for a topic about Star Trek so they can jump in and say what a pile of sh*t it is and how stupid anyone is for liking it.

Meanwhile they're going "I hope my toy plane that transforms into a robot arrives today! What a deal I only paid $250 for it!!!"

Do 'G'emstone and her pals understand this is the 'other anime or science fiction' forum, from 'megazone to Star Trek'? Where it's ok to talk about shows other than Macross? Like for example, Star Trek?

We need to amend the rules here, from now on, only what Jemstone says is cool and or acceptable goes, otherwise your a loser. Jemstone, we need to know, if any of us ever bought a T-shirt with a logo of a show we like on it, is that ok, or are we pathetic idiot fanboys? I meant that's dangerously close to those sick people that dress up in costumes.

So Haterist is collecting Star Wars(?) legos and wants Valkyrie toys, and Jemstone thinks we should all go buy the Nausicaa dvd's? So those are the approved of cool toys and shows? thanks for setting me straight.

I'll go throw all my Star Trek sh*t away right now, which includes about a dozen old VHS tapes of the original show and a few cd's and 2 models. God I hope no one sees me with it!

Edited March 5, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[do not disturb]

yo Major johnathan,

i hope you know i was kidding with that loserville stuff. don't take everything so personally, after all this is the impersonal internet.

[Panon]

LOL, just ran across the ending of Enterprise on AICN. This series is NOT coming back, they pretty much killed any chances of that.

That part about it guaranteeing the show couldn't come back is false, by the way.

The episode is structured so that if by some miracle a fifth season was greenlighted, this finale would not have any effect on that at all.

Denial

What denial?

I don't think the show has any chance of coming back, but that doesn't change the fact the finale does not rule it out as that source posted on AICN assumed.

[Magnus]

[Major Johnathan]

yo Major johnathan,

i hope you know i was kidding with that loserville stuff. don't take everything so personally, after all this is the impersonal internet.

Sorry haterist, felt like I was being teamed up on.

I don't know what the hell happened to this thread, it's a car wreck. It's supposed to be about efforts to save Enterprise. So why do people feel the need to jump in and ridicule or dump on the show or people who like it?

If I saw a thread about saving some series I didn't care for, I probably wouldn't even read it, let alone post about how much it sucks or what a waste of money it is. (beyond the essential food/shelter/clothing etc., what isn't a waste of money?)

Duke Togo chimes in, with his usual 'everything sucks' attitude, and admits in his first post he never even watched a single episode. So why post anything? apprently just to boost his post count.

And Jemstone, we'll she's unhinged. I'm not sure what I said to so offend her to begin with. Maybe it's my avatar? I didn't check with her if it's ok to be a Mospeada fan... I don't consider myself a 'fanboy' of anything really (by the standards spelled out in this topic), but what the hell is it to anyone if someone IS a fanboy of anything? This is a really strange place to be railing against fanboys/geeks. (especially because if your a member here, you ARE a fanboy/girl/geek to one degree or another.)

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

u know...after all you seeing how this tread as gone along i honestly would wonder what'd happen if big west decided to not make any macross shows, show reruns on tv or even release macross toys...would us, the fans really step up and petition to save macross? would that honestly make us any different than them if we did? no it wouldn't...macross fans as any others, share the same desires and wants that any fan of anything basically...fans are fans...no matter how "loser" or "geekish" it all sounds...i honestly was never a fan of enterprise either but you have to give the fans credit for at least trying to save what they see as a "good" show...it's like if we all petitions to have a better ending/more episodes to macross zero

[Bariaburu Faita]

u know...after all you seeing how this tread as gone along i honestly would wonder what'd happen if big west decided to not make any macross shows, show reruns on tv or even release  macross toys...would us, the fans really step up and petition to save macross? would that honestly make us any different than them if we did? no it wouldn't...macross fans as any others, share the same desires and wants that any fan of anything basically...fans are fans...no matter how "loser" or "geekish" it all sounds...i honestly was never a fan of enterprise either but you have to give the fans credit for at least trying to save what they see as a "good" show...it's like if we all petitions to have a better ending/more episodes to macross zero 

Something on a smaller scale is going on with Macross now. Many people feel that there are not going to be many toys or resin kits from Macross, so they are taking matters into their own hands. Making 2 seater 1/48 conversions, Valk Boosters, Minmay statues.

This is because we are fans of the show, and in many cases fanboys/fangirls of Macross. I for one will put myself up for possible Internet assault by stating that I am a Macross fanboy, I go well beyond the normal human norms to try to enhance the community. I will even embarrass myself publicly to show my appreciation for the show (see the pic I posed for in Noels Wonderfest report)

So even though I do not have the same appreciation for Enterprise, I can understand why some people would go to great lengths to support the show. Enterprise may have its flaws, but so does Macross. But we support it anyway because it holds a special place in our limited "lives" In order to "get a life" you need to have a variety of things, work, play, socializing. A enthusiastic hobby is most certainly an essential part of a complete life.

Jemstone and Major Johnathan have some valid points, but much of what they are saying is more than just a bit inflammatory. This is quite normal for the Internet, but I`d like to think Macrossworld is a bit more friendly than most fansites. Something that helped before with Hurin and Haterist was to take a short "don`t post in each others thread" break. A voluntary truce and cooling off period might help in this case.

Edited March 5, 2005 by Bariaburu Faita

[lt.actionjackson]

(/sarcasm)Wow, this thread is so much fun now!(/sarcasm off). Come on. This is probably the worst fan vs. fan thing I've seen since the whole LOTR trilogy nerds vs. SW trilogy nerds first reared its ugly head. Yes, people like Star Trek, heck some fans even like Enterprise. How's that different than some fans liking Macross 7? The thread went from "look at what some fans are doing for the franchise they love" to "star trek geeks are so much geekier than Macross geeks." Let's grow up people. You're on a message board about fighters that transform into robots and songs that can stop wars. Flaming a topic just because you don't think the show is good, is just pointless. If we need more of that around here, we'll just get one of the mods to rename the thread "3 million Macross 7 fans pledge to get more Basara!"

[Mr March]

I'm sorry, but I just have to say that if MacrossWorld rules allow bashing of Macross, Star Wars, Evangelion, and all the popular movies that come up for discussion, there's no way in hell that Trek discussions should be given preferential treatment. I understand there are some fans of the Trek series here, but how many times has the subject of bashing and heated fan debates been covered in other threads? It's obviously allowed, so please get over the fact that your fellow MW members will be sarcastic jerks from time to time (like myself) and chime in with their oh-so-pithy comments.

This is a fanboard after all. Make no excuses and post your opinions.

[Jemstone]

Goddammit Jemstone, the hell is wrong with you?  Do you not know how to disagree but be civil about it at the same time?  Way to nuke my thread. 

The thread was nuked? Looks like it's still standing to me. I was just playing the part of the "obnoxious" poster that the major (who's still gabbering on and on btw) labled me as for giving a simple opinion he couldn't read correctly. Sheesh, don't be a baby about your poor thread.

Edited March 5, 2005 by Jemstone

[Jemstone]

  And Jemstone, we'll she's unhinged. I'm not sure what I said to so offend her to begin with. Maybe it's my avatar? I didn't check with her if it's ok to be a Mospeada fan...  I

See that quote right there shows just how much of an idiot you are. I think it was already made clear what you said that "offended" me. How about "obnoxious" instead of just apologizing for completely misreading/misunderstanding my post with your tangent next to putting words in my mouth? Now you can add "unhinged" to the list of why your existence offends me. Now you want to act all "innocent" by being picked on the big bad "G"emstone? Oh please.

Some people are too stupid to live......

BTW don't bother bringing mospeada into this or Robotech for that matter. It has nothing to do with the fact I still believe Trekkie's on their own could never amass so much money (my original point which I gather still escapes you).

Edited March 5, 2005 by Jemstone