Looks like Sony is in development hell

[Noyhauser]

Actually I think the best controller ever was the Nintendo Virtual Boy's controller. It held better than anything ever made before or since. too bad its platform was crap.

And I also say the Sony playstation controller is probably one of the best out there. I've played all three platforms out there for hours on end, and the playstation is the only one that is comfortable after like 4 hours of play, and the buttons are easily memorizable (not for me, but for new people). I rarely hit the wrong button using it. Even the Xbox small controller isn't as good as it. I think they could tweak it to make it better, but Its still a ubiquitous piece of design.

[JB0]

best controller EVER? The NES Advantage (That's strictly a personal feeling, I understand that it has tons of shortcommings while compared to the PS dualshock)

The Advantage is nice for a cheap joystick.

Nowhere near arcade-grade(heck, the stick isn't even microswitched), but nice for the price point.

But comparing it to a DualShock is like comparing apples to Apples.

It's over a decade old, and totally lacking in ... well, buttons mainly. You can't play a PS game with it, and that's the main problem.

Now THIS...

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-m-70-5w3.html

... is unfair on the other end.

But the subject of joysticks is a lot more subjective. I think something like the above is an optimum solution, though it can't play anything needing analog sticks. I don't think it even supports analog buttons(if it did, I wouldn't pay near that for it). But it's a good layout, with good parts.

[JB0]

Actually I think the best controller ever was the Nintendo Virtual Boy's controller. It held better than anything ever made before or since. too bad its platform was crap.

I like the VB, poor screen refresh aside.

And I also say the Sony playstation controller is probably one of the best out there. I've played all three platforms out there for hours on end, and the playstation is the only one that is comfortable after like 4 hours of play, and the buttons are easily memorizable (not for me, but for new people).

Comfort I've already said my piece on. Memorizable... The PS is the ONLY system where I have to look at the controller when button labels are mentioned, because Sony had to be diffrent and use random shapes instead of something reasonable. Not that Nintendo's backwards labels were the best thing ever, but I could at least remember them.

They could've at LEAST used logical shapes, like ^, V, <, and >.

I rarely hit the wrong button using it. Even the Xbox small controller isn't as good as it. I think they could tweak it to make it better, but Its still a ubiquitous piece of design.

I don't hit the wrong button on ANYTHING due to controller design. Except the DualShock's L3 and R3.

...

Though my experience with the original XBox pad did leave me with a rather sour taste. Thumb hit the right analog stick every time I went for the A button, which was just too dang close to the stick.

[Black Valkyrie]

Hori Digital Pad for the NGC is very good specially for playing GBA/GBP on TV. I got one and the quality is very excellent, even the plastic is tougher then the SNES pad and first time in years I see a pad written made in Japan. The only downfall is button configration, so I score it : 9.5 out of 10

[JB0]

Hori Digital Pad for the NGC is very good specially for playing GBA/GBP on TV. I got one and the quality is very excellent, even the plastic is tougher then the SNES pad and first time in years I see a pad written made in Japan. The only downfall is button configration, so I score it : 9.5 out of 10

*sighs*

I need one of those for PN3. 'Cube's d-pad sucks.

...

Except PN3 needs the analog stick too.

[Black Valkyrie]

I need one of those for PN3. 'Cube's d-pad sucks.

...

Except PN3 needs the analog stick too.

If you are interested :

http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HGC-1...tml?id=wyPPqHPr

[Druna Skass]

The perfect digital pad was the Saturn pad. This is uncontested among serious gamers.

Uhh, define "serious"...

[mikeszekely]

The perfect digital pad was the Saturn pad. This is uncontested among serious gamers.

Uhh, define "serious"...

Yeah... I'd consider myself to be one of the most serious gamers on the boards. I've owned in my days an Odyssey, a Commodore, an Atari, an NES, a SNES, a Gameboy, a Gameboy Pocket, a Gameboy Advance, two GBA SPs, an N64, a PlayStation, a Dreamcast, a PS2, a Gamecube, an Xbox, and a Nintendo DS, plus my PSP is paid off. I currently own over 200 games across several platforms, and that's not counting the stuff I've sold over the years. For just the d-pad, I've found the SNES pad to be the best, and believe me, I put that one through its paces.

I've never really had a problem with the PS2 controller's design. Four shoulder buttons is kind unecessary for most games, but vital for games like Ace Combat. The thumbsticks are in easy reach, so I don't think it mattes that they didn't swap the left stick's place with the d-pad. However, I think the best and most comfortable controller is the Logitech cordless controller.

Give the Xbox controller S a better d-pad, and I'd say that's probably the best controller design out there.

Finally, I've never liked any of Sega's controllers. Six face buttons is no better than four shoulder buttons.

[Druna Skass]

Give the Xbox controller S a better d-pad, and I'd say that's probably the best controller design out there.

I know what you mean, I absolutly hate those kinds of D pads, it so easy to hit diagonal down right, when you want to hit right.

[yellowlightman]

The perfect digital pad was the Saturn pad. This is uncontested among serious gamers.

Uhh, define "serious"...

People that play lots of 2D games like fighter and shooters and don't need a craptastic D-pad messing you up. The round shape makes it easier to pull off diagonal moves, and the Saturn is the best 2D system anyways, so it kind of goes hand in hand.

[Druna Skass]

The perfect digital pad was the Saturn pad. This is uncontested among serious gamers.

Uhh, define "serious"...

People that play lots of 2D games like fighter and shooters and don't need a craptastic D-pad messing you up. The round shape makes it easier to pull off diagonal moves, and the Saturn is the best 2D system anyways, so it kind of goes hand in hand.

I've been playing Street Fighter since it came out on the SNES, personaly I've always preffered the cross shaped D-pad over the Genesis style circular pad. I fact I always had the problem of inadvertly hitting a diagonal when I mean to hit one of the "main" directions. When I think craptastic d-pad I think those circular d-pads, and yes I can also play Street Fighter with the arcade stick.

[mikeszekely]

The perfect digital pad was the Saturn pad. This is uncontested among serious gamers.

Uhh, define "serious"...

People that play lots of 2D games like fighter and shooters and don't need a craptastic D-pad messing you up. The round shape makes it easier to pull off diagonal moves, and the Saturn is the best 2D system anyways, so it kind of goes hand in hand.

I've been playing Street Fighter since it came out on the SNES, personaly I've always preffered the cross shaped D-pad over the Genesis style circular pad. I fact I always had the problem of inadvertly hitting a diagonal when I mean to hit one of the "main" directions. When I think craptastic d-pad I think those circular d-pads, and yes I can also play Street Fighter with the arcade stick.

I'm with Druna on this one. Too me, the SNES pad is still the most responsive and accurate for fighting games, and I played fighters with my friends all the time then. We mostly played the three Mortal Kombats, the three versions of Street Fighter II, the first two Fatal Fury games, and Samurai Showdown. Super Street Fighter II really stands out... I played that until I got blisters.

Saturn was the best 2D system? Not likely. That crown belongs to the SNES. The Saturn had a handful of good titles and the RAM expansion made for better ports of Capcom's early Vs games, but it's more of a 3D system, like the orignal PlayStation.

Besides, the Dreamcast was Sega's best system. I'd love to see a sequel to Samba de Amigo or Seaman.

[yellowlightman]

Saturn was the best 2D system? Not likely. That crown belongs to the SNES. The Saturn had a handful of good titles and the RAM expansion made for better ports of Capcom's early Vs games, but it's more of a 3D system, like the orignal PlayStation.

Er, yeah, I meant not counting 2D-only systems.

The Saturn wasn't really a 2D system, it was developed as a 2D system originally and it's 3D offerings are pretty crap-tastic.

As for the d-pads, different strokes for different folks. Point is that the Dual Shock's d-pad is horrible.

[Druna Skass]

As for the d-pads, different strokes for different folks. Point is that the Dual Shock's d-pad is horrible.

As you said diffrent strokes for diffrent folks...

No it's not...

If I can still play Street Fighter for over and hour with it and not get pissed off at it, it's a good pad.

Edited March 2, 2005 by Druna Skass

[JB0]

Yeah... I'd consider myself to be one of the most serious gamers on the boards. I've owned in my days an Odyssey, a Commodore, an Atari, an NES, a SNES, a Gameboy, a Gameboy Pocket, a Gameboy Advance, two GBA SPs, an N64, a PlayStation, a Dreamcast, a PS2, a Gamecube, an Xbox, and a Nintendo DS, plus my PSP is paid off. I currently own over 200 games across several platforms, and that's not counting the stuff I've sold over the years.

Nice collection...

Odyssey 1 or 2?

I've currently got at least one of each of the following:

Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Vectrex, INTV, NES, SNES+Super GameBoy, Genesis+SegaCD+Power Base Converter, PS1, GameCube, DreamCast, Atari 800XL, TI 99/4a(worst controllers ever), GameBoy, GameBoy Color, GameBoy Advance non-SP, NeoGeo Pocket Color, and of course, IBM PCs in both modern and legacy box flavors.

And likely something I missed. I do that disturbingly often.

I really don't want to count my games. I've been putting off a proper indexing for far too long, and I intend to keep doing it.

I know I have over a hundred 2600 carts alone, though I admit that pr'ly a third of those are duplicates(it shames me to admit, but I have 3 Superman carts).

And yes, I know my collection is lagging somewhat. Haven't had the funds to expand it greatly for a while.

Aside from the obvious PS2, XBox, and DS, I need to add a Saturn at least. I've had too much fun with them to keep ignoring it. Also drooling over a PCEngine setup.

And knowing how I am, I'll likely wind up with a Jaguar, 7800, and God knows what else when all's said and done.

For just the d-pad, I've found the SNES pad to be the best, and believe me, I put that one through its paces.

*thinks*

Man, I haven't put my SNES pad through it's paces in a while. I remember it being pretty good, though.

I WAS getting some accidental up/down motion on my last Super Metroid run. But I think I was just sloppy.

I've never really had a problem with the PS2 controller's design.  Four shoulder buttons is kind unecessary for most games, but vital for games like Ace Combat.  The thumbsticks are in easy reach, so I don't think it mattes that they didn't swap the left stick's place with the d-pad.  However, I think the best and most comfortable controller is the Logitech cordless controller.

*shrugs*

I do admit to being amazingly picky sometimes. But with few exceptions(RAD being my shining example of near-perfection), I find the DualShock as just annoying.

Give the Xbox controller S a better d-pad, and I'd say that's probably the best controller design out there.

I'd move select, start, black, and white.

Only real gripes is they ride too low for my tastes.

Give me enough time with an XBox, and I might form a strong pro/con on the d-pad. A few minute sat a demo kiosk doesn't leave much of an impression, especially when the only games I've seen show up on demo disks that it's much good for are Metal Slug and SNK VS Capcom.

I've been told it has a pretty darn good one, by someone who I consider rather well-versed in the subject.

I KNOW it can't be worse than the one in the 'Cube and GBA, though that doesn't say much.

Finally, I've never liked any of Sega's controllers. 

Original Genesis pad will always win points in my book for putting pause in a readily-accessible spot. Why no one ELSE ever figured this out is beyond me.

And for the enclosure size. I like the size of the pad.

Six face buttons is no better than four shoulder buttons.

I LIKE 6 face buttons, personally.

I've never been a big fan of the diamond layout, except for my period as a die-hard Nintendo fanboy when I was much younger.

[yellowlightman]

As for the d-pads, different strokes for different folks. Point is that the Dual Shock's d-pad is horrible.

As you said diffrent strokes for diffrent folks...

No it's not...

If I can still play Street Fighter for over and hour with it and not get pissed off at it, it's a good pad.

You're honestly the first person I've talked to who thought so. I just spent 15 minutes playing a shooter with my dual shock (PS2 -> USB converter on my laptop) and my thumb is in pain. The way the pad is set up really doesn't set itself up well for constant movement, you're not able to "roll" your thumb around on it like you can any other d-pad. For games that use it occasionalyl it's fine, but for soemthing like a shooter where you're constantly movement and need recise movements, it's too painful to use and woefully inadequate compared to superior d-pads found on other consoles.

[Akilae]

You're honestly the first person I've talked to who thought so. I just spent 15 minutes playing a shooter with my dual shock (PS2 -> USB converter on my laptop) and my thumb is in pain. The way the pad is set up really doesn't set itself up well for constant movement, you're not able to "roll" your thumb around on it like you can any other d-pad. For games that use it occasionalyl it's fine, but for soemthing like a shooter where you're constantly movement and need recise movements, it's too painful to use and woefully inadequate compared to superior d-pads found on other consoles.

Just to add to the flames... But why use a pad to play a shooter when a mouse/keyboard combo offers the best precision movements?

[Graham]

Despite owning a fair number of consoles over the years (Megadrive, Super Famicon, PS1, Saturn, Dreamcast & PS2), I consider myself a casual gamer only.

Anyway, out of all the consoles I've owned, I think I've been most happy and comfortable with Sony's PS1/PS2 controllers. I guess in the end it's just down to individual preference.

Graham

[Phyrox]

I guess I am a casual gamer, but have played a good number of games across a good number of systems.

As for controller preferences...they seem to be very personal. As for me, I have never had a problem with my PS1/2 controller. Never any pain, inconvinience, or awkwardness.

I hated the first xbox controller, and took a long time to adapt to the N64 things, but beyond those, I don't think I have ever really had a problem with any of them.

And since the Gran Turismo series is one of the ones I am really into, I can say that the pressure sensitivity was a huge boon on the PS2 versions. The difference between trying to take a hairpin with throttle flutter vs. a nice smooth 50% is the difference between frustrating loss and glorious victory.

[yellowlightman]

Just to add to the flames... But why use a pad to play a shooter when a mouse/keyboard combo offers the best precision movements?

Shooter, not FPS. As in.. Raiden, Ikaruga, etc?

And since the Gran Turismo series is one of the ones I am really into, I can say that the pressure sensitivity was a huge boon on the PS2 versions. The difference between trying to take a hairpin with throttle flutter vs. a nice smooth 50% is the difference between frustrating loss and glorious victory.

Better than the original Dual Shock, but still a shoddy substitute for the triggers on the DC/GC/XBox.

Although I've been playing GT4 on my friend's steering wheel w/ pedals and I'm beginning to think that's the only way to really play racing games...

[Black Valkyrie]

The SNES pad is excellent but the D-button sometimes it`s hard to excute in fighting games like Fatal Fury-1, 2 & Special, basically it wasn`t design for fighting games but mostly for platforms, RPGs and shooter.

As for the Genesis 6-Button and the Saturn (BEST PADS ALL TIME for me) their round D-button is excellent it never failed me, in some ways it was intended for fighting games Plus I still have 2 pairs in mint condition.

When I look at the D-button in general the 1st thing comes to my mind is the plastic quality Sega No.1, Nintendo then PS and the worst one is xbox. The xbox analog stick realy gives me pain in my thumbs when using it.

HEHEHEHEHE now lets see what Joysticks you guys like Neo Geo, Ascii or Hori ?

[yellowlightman]

HEHEHEHEHE now lets see what Joysticks you guys like Neo Geo, Ascii or Hori ?

The joystick I'm using now is the older style RedOctane pad. It's alright, but not great. The buttons are good quality (real arcade parts) but they skimped on the stick itself which feels loose and it's hard to pull off 1/4-circle turns with it. But for $25, it's not too bad.

If I used it more I'd think of picking up a better stick, but as it is now I haven't used it in over 6 months. I am thinking about picking up one of those new Street Fighter II game padspads, since they're cheaper than the Saturn pads Sega's releasing for the PS2.

[CoryHolmes]

Am I the only one that acutally liked the original X-Box controller? I really liked the placement of the White and Black buttons for that sucker and absolutly despise their placement on the Controller S.

[Black Valkyrie]

Any chance that SEGA will release the Saturn-PS2 pad world wide ?

[yellowlightman]

Any chance that SEGA will release the Saturn-PS2 pad world wide ?

I kind of doubt it, but it won't be difficult (or too expensive) to import it.

[JB0]

You're honestly the first person I've talked to who thought so. I just spent 15 minutes playing a shooter with my dual shock (PS2 -> USB converter on my laptop) and my thumb is in pain. The way the pad is set up really doesn't set itself up well for constant movement, you're not able to "roll" your thumb around on it like you can any other d-pad. For games that use it occasionalyl it's fine, but for soemthing like a shooter where you're constantly movement and need recise movements, it's too painful to use and woefully inadequate compared to superior d-pads found on other consoles.

Just to add to the flames... But why use a pad to play a shooter when a mouse/keyboard combo offers the best precision movements?

Let's see... I've already thrown all my gas on, but I think I've got a jar of kerosene around here...

A. Trackballs are infinitely better than mice.

B. Keyboards suck.

C. I'd much rather play a 2D shooter than a first-person one.

My optimum FPS setup would be something like ...

this and this.

What I'd change if I owned a factory...

Replace the d-pad on the Nostromo SpeedPad with something more resembling a mouse touchpad, simulating an analog stick. With ridges running along the cardinal directions for tactile feedback. If you saw a TurboTouch pad, you have the appearance down(But not the functionality. The tech is WAY better than it was back then, thank goodness...). Also plausable is an NES Max-style d-pad, with pots on the slider.

Either way... thumb on the center, no motion. Slide it forward a little, you scoot forward a little. Out some more, we're walking. Slide to the edge of the pad, full-out run. The genre is well overdue for a little analog motion.

[Sundown]

My idea of a perfect FPS controller?

Right hand-- mouse.

Left hand-- a puck like jostick with a myriad of buttons. The puck itself can be shifted in the four normal directions, in addition to being able to be twisted and tilted.

Shifting for standard movement, WASD style. Tilting for mapping to things like leaning (left and right) or crouching (forward and backwards), and twisting for stuff like torso turning in the games that support the feature.

Of course analog control all around. Analog movement. Analog leaning. Analog crouching. Analog torso twist.

I can dream.

-Al

[Druna Skass]

Hmm, I wonder if it's possilble to make a custom PS2 controler, with the right stick replaced by a small trackball.

[Akilae]

Just to add to the flames...   But why use a pad to play a shooter when a mouse/keyboard combo offers the best precision movements?

Shooter, not FPS. As in.. Raiden, Ikaruga, etc?

woops... shoulda thought before that relfex posting, lol... man, last shooter I played was... R-Type Final, and I still haven't gotten all the planes, grr...

Since we seem to be on the topic of all sorts of control schemes, nothing beats being beaten in an FPS by a guy using, of all things, a nipple

Wheel and pedals (best of all, with a stick thrown in) are the best way, ever... especially after seeing your friend cruise around the turns with one hand on the wheel while you're all hunched over the piddly Dualshock hmm... might have to get the Logitech wheel for GT4... (on that logic, I should have also gotten the flightstick combo for AC5... but I already got two MS Sidewinders at home )

[JB0]

My idea of a perfect FPS controller?

Right hand-- mouse.

Left hand-- a puck like jostick with a myriad of buttons. The puck itself can be shifted in the four normal directions, in addition to being able to be twisted and tilted.

Shifting for standard movement, WASD style. Tilting for mapping to things like leaning (left and right) or crouching (forward and backwards), and twisting for stuff like torso turning in the games that support the feature.

Of course analog control all around. Analog movement. Analog leaning. Analog crouching. Analog torso twist.

I can dream.

-Al

Why dream? Microsoft made it. Sidewinder Strategic Commander.

[mikeszekely]

Am I the only one that acutally liked the original X-Box controller? I really liked the placement of the White and Black buttons for that sucker and absolutly despise their placement on the Controller S.

I know a few other people that liked the original 'Box controller, but I just never saw it. It was too big... like holding a loaf of bread with two analog sticks poking out. The d-pad was one of the worst ever (at least the S has a cross on the circle), and while the white/black button placement might have been better (and that's debateable... I got used to having them near the bottom real fast), the X/Y/B/A buttons were clustered way too close together. I remember playing DoA3 and constantly had the problem of pushing the wrong buttons.

I should mention that the Logitech Wireless controller for the Xbox is great, but not as good as the one for PS2, and unless you have a wireless headset, it's useless for voicechat on Live.

[mikeszekely]

Wheel and pedals (best of all, with a stick thrown in) are the best way, ever... especially after seeing your friend cruise around the turns with one hand on the wheel while you're all hunched over the piddly Dualshock hmm... might have to get the Logitech wheel for GT4... (on that logic, I should have also gotten the flightstick combo for AC5... but I already got two MS Sidewinders at home )

Not so sure about that. While the Logitech Wheel is the best I've tried (with almost no dead zone and a 900 degree turning radius), none of them have enough force feedback to truly recreate the feeling of driving car. And since I'm already used to the standard controller, switching to a wheel or stick causes a drastic reduction in skill for me.

[David Hingtgen]

Just a few comments:

1. Recent PS2 controllers suck compared to a launch day one. I am not the only one to notice, and it's very obvious to me. I searched for a while to find a "old" PS2 controller for sale to replace the one from my PStwo, and will buy another soon as a spare. And yes I popped them open to compare, and found small but definite differences. Different enough for me to spend 25 bucks on a new controller. Was NOT going to play AC5 on the new sucky one.

2. Hori pad for GC is nice, but if they'd have done SNES style buttons instead of GC it'd rock. The GC button arrangement sucks for many games, especially fighting games.

3. Actually preferred DC controller to twin-sticks for VO:OT.

4. Original US-style Saturn controller is the best I've used. The Saturn controller coming out for the PS2 is either the original JP style or later US style, I can never remember. Shoulder buttons are the main real difference, casing is mainly a cosmetic change.

5. I hate GC triggers. Gotta press them in half a foot before they register, then they "sprong" back up audibly.

6. Xbox S controller always makes my 3/4/5 fingers curl in weird angles, same problem as DC controller---the giant "trigger holder/handholds" scrunch my fingers behind the controller towards the center. I want nothing on the "back" of a controller---PS controllers are much better. If I stop playing due to finger pain, it's because my middle and ring finger are rubbing or pressed against a hand-hold/trigger button area, not due to button pressing.

[Akilae]

Just a few comments:

1. Recent PS2 controllers suck compared to a launch day one. I am not the only one to notice, and it's very obvious to me. I searched for a while to find a "old" PS2 controller for sale to replace the one from my PStwo, and will buy another soon as a spare. And yes I popped them open to compare, and found small but definite differences. Different enough for me to spend 25 bucks on a new controller. Was NOT going to play AC5 on the new sucky one.

huh, I was beginning to wonder why the analogue sticks on my newer Dualshocks were showing a whole lot more wear and tear compared to my older controller... the analogue buttons also seem slightly less responsive, and there's a slight catch on the triggers that I find annoying...

[JB0]

Am I the only one that acutally liked the original X-Box controller?  I really liked the placement of the White and Black buttons for that sucker and absolutly despise their placement on the Controller S.

I know a few other people that liked the original 'Box controller, but I just never saw it. It was too big... like holding a loaf of bread with two analog sticks poking out. The d-pad was one of the worst ever (at least the S has a cross on the circle), and while the white/black button placement might have been better (and that's debateable... I got used to having them near the bottom real fast), the X/Y/B/A buttons were clustered way too close together. I remember playing DoA3 and constantly had the problem of pushing the wrong buttons.

The demo units I played, the size was never an issue to me.

On the other hand, everything on the device felt in the "wrong" place. The button slant especially gave me hell. It was like they intended it to be held sideways with the way the button set slanted almost straight up.