Mac+ Plot Question

[DestroidDefender]

Okay - when I first saw mac+ years ago on the Space Channel, I thought Isamu flew to Earth in the final chapter to rescue Myung and stop Sharon. Seeing it again lately, Isamu's motivation for stealing the fighter and flying to Earth seem to be purely spite over losing his job. Arriving in time to save Myung appear to be purely coincidental. And he doesn't seem to have any problem trashing Macross City to escape Guld.

Am I reading this right? Is this a difference between the "movie" and OAV?

[valk1j]

No plot difference in the movie vs. the OVA. Isamu goes to earth to foil the debut of the ghost. He has no idea about Myung being in trouble.

[eugimon]

yup. isamu goes to earth to show humans are better than bots and then he and guld happily lay waste to a major metropolitan center... both of them being manipluated by the new edwards base commander who didn't want to see bots flying around either.

I think general idea is that everyone was out at the concert/commemoration and no one actually got hurt...

[ArchVile]

The base commander didn't manipulate them, he just was glad that they went. He never did anything other than tell them the news that the projects had been scrapped due to the Ghost.

[eugimon]

uhmm... watch it again. the commander is pushing isamu's buttons the whole time.

[Roy's Blues]

Plus, he covered up Guld disability to keep him on the project.

[Zentrandude]

uhmm... watch it again. the commander is pushing isamu's buttons the whole time.

I belive eveyone would push his buttons anyways. *pulls out cut film footage of isamu kicking the chips out of a robotic cola vending machine*

[JB0]

uhmm... watch it again. the commander is pushing isamu's buttons the whole time.

I belive eveyone would push his buttons anyways. *pulls out cut film footage of isamu kicking the chips out of a robotic cola vending machine*

"Cora! Cora! Co-OWWOWWOWWSTOPIT!"

[eugimon]

uhmm... watch it again. the commander is pushing isamu's buttons the whole time.

I belive eveyone would push his buttons anyways. *pulls out cut film footage of isamu kicking the chips out of a robotic cola vending machine*

heh.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Millard mentions in the elevator about the higher-ups fantasy about this utopian 'New Space Order' (aka new world order ) and how he pretty much prefers there being humans over machines making the decisions so that's why he saved guld's ass.(maybe he doesn't trust them like the guy in the new Battle Star Galactica show?)

Milard also mentions to Lucy in the movie when Isamu stole the plane, that he himself would have done the same thing. (it wasn't just that Dyson was being his annoyingly reckless self this time. He was really fighting for 'the humans' against the machines to compete and to show the higher ups we are superior.) In the ova you don't see this scene, but to me I thought this was important in establishing just who's side he is on, and whether he himself is actually "just like a robot" by mindlessly following orders he himself doesn't agree with given from above. All in helping build this 'new space order' where the machines replace people. (both in music/culture/society and militarily.)

I guess you could say millard is more of a hypocrite in the ova: giving speeches on telling us how valuable human pilots are, but then not giving a poo to voice his strong opinion about the need for human pilots to the people in charge.. Especially when you consider that his own job might be taken away by machines some day anyway.

You'll notice that there is a lot of mind control and hypnotism going on in the background in this so I think the future of global government was to in some way secretly pacify the people using the music (similar to how there is like hidden meanings in lyrics for rock music and playing music backwards to get the real message - rock being the 'counter-culture' of society ) while using the AI to run military defenses like in Terminator with Skynet to eliminate any dissent in case reckless people like Dyson who were immune to the music's hypnotic effects were to get out of control.

Everything would be controlled with a combination of hypnotism and automated defenses, eliminating the value of humans. (but Basara changed all that in macross 7 with his 'anima Spiritua' BS jk Maybe this was the macross equivalent of stars wars' "the Force" but for the macross universe instead? Link this 'magic floating rocks' idea from macross Zero; the latest in the macross world,.. to the macross 7 stuff and then tell me I'm crazy.. I think the idea in the future of macross is to give a message that we are human not just emotionally, but with some divine untapped power we just don't know about similar to the jedi in star wars??)

The thing that most shocked me was how in DYRL where you had a guy's head stuck to a ship and controlling it with his brain. I think the zentradi would have easily been ahead in brain control to the humans (which is why the fascination with mind link-up to machines for direct control by general galaxy?) and might have even kept some secrets from the humans, which I think the higher ups may have been paranoid about. There may have been a conspiracy by the aliens to control them with machines? lol (But that's just something I made up based on my own conspiracy theorys and the reaction of zenophobic humans in trusting aliens.)

I still think the older generations would have been rascist against zentradi getting too much power because of thier "fighting instincts" and danger they felt about them. ("..you would trust a zentradi halfbreed like Guld?!") I could totally imagine the humans not wanting Zentradi to run the world based on thier destructive nature and so there was some racial tension hidden there. I noticed that Guld was wearing a "Zentradi Jacket", which I think means he's out to prove something that his kind are better than the humans. (the jacket had the Z symbol on it - I wish these existed in real life cause I would buy and wear one!)

Edited February 20, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Renato]

Good points, LV, but I doubt Guld had any intention of showing how superior Zentran are. Especially when you consider that HIS reason for going to Earth (aside from being ordered to by Millard) was to stop Isamu from getting anywhere near Myung. Purely personal (just like Isamu).

[Mule]

I guess you could say millard is more of a hypocrite in the ova: giving speeches on telling us how valuable human pilots are, but then not giving a poo to voice his strong opinion about the need for human pilots to the people in charge.. biggrin.gif Especially when you consider that his own job might be taken away by machines some day anyway.

Although Millard held a faily high rank, he was still a military man. The best he could do in that situation is subtly suggest he didn't like the policy. He couldn't flat out say to a subordinate that he disagreed with a policy and then tell that person that he should do something about it. It all has to be done subtly and in the end, he had to leave the choice to Isamu and Guld.

The thing that most shocked me was how in DYRL where you had a guy's head stuck to a ship and controlling it with his brain. I think the zentradi would have easily been ahead in brain control to the humans (which is why the fascination with mind link-up to machines for direct control by general galaxy?)...

Good point. If you look at the YF-21 design (especially in battroid mode) the similarity to the Q-Rau are striking.

[JB0]

The thing that most shocked me was how in DYRL where you had a guy's head stuck to a ship and controlling it with his brain. I think the zentradi would have easily been ahead in brain control to the humans (which is why the fascination with mind link-up to machines for direct control by general galaxy?)

Actually, it's not simple fascination with the idea. There's good valid reasons to do it when the tech is available.

It gives faster response times and more intuitive controls and interfaces.

They've actually found in modern research that a chimp wired into a robot arm will actually develop brain sections devoted to working the robot arm. It becomes just another part of the chimp's body.

If I recall, similar effects can be seen in sensory devices feeding data in through the tongue(long story short, it's got a LOT of nerve endings and isn't doing a whole lot with them unless you're eating, making it a perfect place to hijack for input).

They actually try to show some of this with the scenes showing Guld's "view" from the YF-21. He can "see" the full sensor suite's view without having to look down at viewscreens or toggle modes. X-ray, IR, visible light, etc all comes in like an extension of his own eyes.

Furthermore, he can see things that would be virtually impossible to project onto conventional displays intelligibly, like missile maneuverability cones.

And, of course, there's the launch sequence where they show him "flexing" his hands to adjust the plane wings and his feet to tweak the thrust vectoring. A massive dumbing-down of the actual situation, but really the best you can do with a visual medium.

Despite the massive complexity of a top-end variable fighter, once you learn the interface piloting a VF becomes as intuitive as walking down the street, which is more than any modern single-mode fighter can claim, much less a variable fighter with conventioanl controls.

Which ties back to DYRL-style Bodol, actually.

A fleet commander doesn't need a conventional body. What he needs is instant access to his fleet without a chain of peons standing between him and his comm system, defensive weaponry, offensive weaponry, etc waiting to misunderstand orders that already take valuable seconds to hand out. What better way to do this than make the ship istelf the commander's body?

The big question is why ALL zentradi aren't interfaced to their ships in DYRL, from the regults on up.

And THAT is the same reason Macross 7 isn't full of BCS/BDI valks. It's all about aesthetics. A pilot that sits there motionless with his eyes shut doesn't make for good animation. It's alien and un-natural to the viewer. They want to see people running around and yanking joysticks.

...

Truthfully, Mac7 should be full of BCS drones(Sharon Apple is but one of a large number of problems with AI, and likely not the first one to worry about). Remote piloting removes the restriction of the human body, which is enough of a problem that real-world fighter jets have limiters to keep pilots from killing themselves. But remote control is even less appealing to the average viewer than neural interfaces.

[Guest Bromgrev]

So, what did Isamu really prove? That a 'Zentraedi half-breed' could beat the ghost, but only by killing himself into the bargain. Isamu never really got close to it. The outcome left me with a profound sense of depression with the whole 'AI will never be better than human pilots' thing.

Re: people being safe at the concert - I like to think the entire revenue service was in one of those office buildings that got trashed ...

[Mechamaniac]

So, what did Isamu really prove? That a 'Zentraedi half-breed' could beat the ghost, but only by killing himself into the bargain. Isamu never really got close to it.

Well, you also have to remember the subplot of Guld's redemption.

He realized it was he who had attacked/raped Myung when they were younger. He knew his plane had the better chance of taking out the X-9, and knew that he had a massive debt of honor to repay.

In short, he did so, which was why they show his lips curling into a smile right before he takes out the X-9. He saved his friends, proved the ultimate superiority of his fighter design, and redeemed his honor.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They've actually found in modern research that a chimp wired into a robot arm will actually develop brain sections devoted to working the robot arm. It becomes just another part of the chimp's body.

I remember reading an article about that. The monkey (not sure, it may have been a gorrilla though, this might have been a different experiment) had like a hole drilled into its skull. This reminds me of something I have seen in a simpson episode. I can't wait till we have monkey cyborgs trained to pilot fighters with thier brains!

It gives faster response times and more intuitive controls and interfaces.

This would have been even more kickass in battroid. The mech would just do what you think. You could hold a bowl of noodles in your lap and eat and kill things at the same time by thinking. One question though: how come when guld lost control of the mech in the episode where he is falling to his doom and Dyson has to rescue him, did they not design the yf21 to just automatically change to manual control scheme if the connection that responds to brainwaves is interrupted? Like say as a failsafe when his brain is distracted?

This would have solved all the problem from the beginning wouldn't it? If his brainwaves told the plane to do something dangerous and reckless, they could have programmed it so the computer takes control and overides the command to avoid crashing.

So, what did Isamu really prove?

That he could beat the AI and the mind control and that good human pilots are "in control", not the machines. We control them, they don't rule and control us. (which is what happened when the crew was brainwashed by the AI+chip.)

The whole guilt trip that Guld puts upon Dyson is that "he is the reckless careless and cold one". Because Guld believes he is "dangerous", myung could get hurt and he needs to protect her from Dyson.

When guld outperforms him and taunts him about not being "in control" in the first episode of the ova, it is like an insult to him who values the fact that he is "in control" at all times. The same thing happens with Guld where he loses control of his plane and of himself. He has to take drugs to surpress this zentradi fighting instinct which could cost him the competition. (like a kid with ADD who needs prozac or something)

In between all this is the AI. An AI which was toying and controlling both Guld AND Isamu because it had parts of myung's own personality inside it and was manipulating both of them to compete for myung, causing this whole conflict. The AI took control of the SDF1 (and the crew's minds) but ultimately couldn't control the human soul which broke out when myung sung her song which magically broke the spell.

I think the moral of the story here was that machines can mimmick us, but they cant truly "create" by feeling like us humans. The reason the programmers failed to make a truly human-behaving AI (and needed to cheat when that mad scientist put the bioneural chip in it) is because we humans do things that go beyond those "rules and regulations" that people like millard set up because they are "ordered to follow" to stop reckless people like Dyson from doing what they want to do. The same could be said of a program that follows a strict set of rules to govern behaviour. Artists really just 'feel', they don't have to think about strict rules of program code to create thier art. Those rules might prevent and restrict them from thier expressions. If it gets to a point where they can't express what they are truly feeling then that's not creating from thier heart. (maybe for profit though)

When myung let her spirit guide her and just sang her song because she "felt" like it, that's us humans being "human" by spontaneously letting the feeling come out rather than be commanded to by the design of the program that some techie thought would best mimmick real human behaviour. This was that flaw of the AI: by not being able to express feelings spontaneously to create it's own personality (it merely stole an inferiour copy off myung's mind) it wasn't behaving the way a real person would. Similarly when Myung tells the dying AI that she made the same mistake: not expressing her true feelings and bottling it all up, that was what stopped her career from taking off and letting the mess build up into a big conflict.

She stopped singing because she couldn't feel the feelings of love that she may have genuinely been having all those years ago when things weren't so depressing and all three of them were happy. She probably thought by turning her back on the events and focusing on work, the bottled up feelings would go away.

I hope that after that sharon apple incident, she didn't make the same mistake the AI made, and instead let her heart (the truthful side of her character) just govern her actions more than her mind so that she could get on with life and be honest with herself just like she was was 7 years back. Her "career" was a facade all along which Dyson knew about right from episode 1 when he was on the bike and heard her voice and knew it was not the computer generated one that all the fans of sharon apple were meant to believe.

If Dyson knew she was acting fake from the begining, (pretending she was not miserable and not allowing the hurt and her feelings to come out) maybe the AI was justified in expressing those true feelings FOR her with its fake personality, since she preffered acting fake all the time anyway. Computers/machines only do what they are told you know.. and the AI thought it was making the two pilots happy by giving them what they desire, not matter how misled.

I can't help but feel Myung is the biggest fraud ever who kinda deserves what she got. Imagine all the fan disapointment when they find out the secret that it was a human singing all along and not an AI with it's own emotions? As bad as Milli Vanilli!!

Edited March 19, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Ed.Coli]

Actually, it's not simple fascination with the idea. There's good valid reasons to do it when the tech is available.

It gives faster response times and more intuitive controls and interfaces.

They've actually found in modern research that a chimp wired into a robot arm will actually develop brain sections devoted to working the robot arm. It becomes just another part of the chimp's body.

If I recall, similar effects can be seen in sensory devices feeding data in through the tongue(long story short, it's got a LOT of nerve endings and isn't doing a whole lot with them unless you're eating, making it a perfect place to hijack for input).

Well, one of the problems with "mind-control" is that even if you could translate brainwaves to control patterns (proven by the chimp experiment), it still only translates to random movement.

Think of it this way; human brains are wired to control just the right amount of extremities, at birth; two arms, two legs, etc. Adding a third arm, or an entire airplane to that perfect system will only screw things up, since we aren't born with control instincts for them.

How do we get past this? For example, if someone wanted to create, say, Doctor Octopus, he'd first have to find an undeveloped fetus, and start implanting the artificial synapses and arms. As the brain develops, there is a SLIGHT chance that it will accept the artificial synapses. After that, all the doctor would need to do is to keep changing out the arms as the baby grows.

Wiring an entire airplane into an undeveloped fetus would probably kill it, though.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Ed.Coli

[EXO]

Wiring an entire airplane into an undeveloped fetus would probably kill it, though.

Not to mention it's a bitch to change the diapers when he fully develops to a baby.

From what I remember people with an extra finger are unable to move it autonomously. The sixth digit usually moves with the finger next to it.

[JB0]

Well, one of the problems with "mind-control" is that even if you could translate brainwaves to control patterns (proven by the chimp experiment), it still only translates to random movement.

Think of it this way; human brains are wired to control just the right amount of extremities, at birth; two arms, two legs, etc. Adding a third arm, or an entire airplane to that perfect system will only screw things up, since we aren't born with control instincts for them.

Actually, the big thing about the chimp experiment(as well as the tongue input ones) is it proves this conception is wrong.

As I said, the chimp brain not only controlled the arm(as opposed to flailing it about randomly) , it developed sections of the brain dedicated to control of the robot arm.

On the human level we've set up non-invasive rigs, but they aren't very sensitive and just moving a mouse cursor-type object with them is a chore, much less operating in a full 3D space with varying levels of "click".

And we're actually born with very little wiring.

That's why babies do a lot of nothing for a while. They don't know how to work their bodies.

But we've found out recently that we can learn new things well into adulthood(albeit slower than a child does).

A person born deaf can learn to hear if he's given a way to pick up sound. Someone born blind can learn to see if given a way to recieve light.

How do we get past this? For example, if someone wanted to create, say, Doctor Octopus, he'd first have to find an undeveloped fetus, and start implanting the artificial synapses and arms. As the brain develops, there is a SLIGHT chance that it will accept the artificial synapses. After that, all the doctor would need to do is to keep changing out the arms as the baby grows.

Or you could just wire the arms into an adult and let the incredible adaptiveness of the human brain figure it out, as it will based on what we know now.

[MGREXX]

He goes to Earth because he wants to get "virtual" with Sharon.

[eugimon]

Well, one of the problems with "mind-control" is that even if you could translate brainwaves to control patterns (proven by the chimp experiment), it still only translates to random movement.

Think of it this way; human brains are wired to control just the right amount of extremities, at birth; two arms, two legs, etc. Adding a third arm, or an entire airplane to that perfect system will only screw things up, since we aren't born with control instincts for them.

Actually, the big thing about the chimp experiment(as well as the tongue input ones) is it proves this conception is wrong.

As I said, the chimp brain not only controlled the arm(as opposed to flailing it about randomly) , it developed sections of the brain dedicated to control of the robot arm.

On the human level we've set up non-invasive rigs, but they aren't very sensitive and just moving a mouse cursor-type object with them is a chore, much less operating in a full 3D space with varying levels of "click".

And we're actually born with very little wiring.

That's why babies do a lot of nothing for a while. They don't know how to work their bodies.

But we've found out recently that we can learn new things well into adulthood(albeit slower than a child does).

A person born deaf can learn to hear if he's given a way to pick up sound. Someone born blind can learn to see if given a way to recieve light.

How do we get past this? For example, if someone wanted to create, say, Doctor Octopus, he'd first have to find an undeveloped fetus, and start implanting the artificial synapses and arms. As the brain develops, there is a SLIGHT chance that it will accept the artificial synapses. After that, all the doctor would need to do is to keep changing out the arms as the baby grows.

Or you could just wire the arms into an adult and let the incredible adaptiveness of the human brain figure it out, as it will based on what we know now.

yup.. the brain is capable of remapping neurons to deal with new things... i rememer some reseachers were working on special chips that promoted nerve growth for implanting into brain damage victims in order to provide a framework for new bran tissue.

[Guest Bromgrev]

But really, the point is we mostly prefer Macross with human pilots jerking real joysicks and thumbing real firing buttons. Technological feasibilty aside, who really wants to watch future Macross (please ?) anime with AI or direct-brain controlled mecha?

Edited March 21, 2005 by Bromgrev

[JB0]

But really, the point is we mostly prefer Macross with human pilots jering real joysicks and thumbing real firing buttons. Technological feasibilty aside, who really wants to watch future Macross (please ?) anime with AI or direct-brain controlled mecha?

Right. It's about what looks good, not about what makes the most sense.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Technological feasibilty aside, who really wants to watch future Macross (please  ?) anime with AI or direct-brain controlled mecha?

But in macross zero we have a mech that is brain controlled by sara. Wouldn't it be better to have mechs that could learn you, rather than you learning how to control them? Imagine the time you'd save not having to train yourself to use one?

You could eat a bowl of noodles using your hands while using your mind to blast other mechs. I think that would be cool! I think machines controlled with brainwaves are interesting. I hope in a future series of macross they don't totally ditch the idea of brain controlled mechs and support drones which act like sentry guns (similar to aliens) which can guard an area while the human is elswhere.

Just because the drone lost the competition somebody somewhere out there in the macross universe would have a good use for them. All they need is another war that enables the funding for designing newer, more-efficient killing machines. (say they create a story similar to the one in Zero where all the good pilots are killed in a previous war. The solution would be to rely on drones since there is a great shortage and all sorts of remote-piloted vehicles are used in place of humans.

If the SDF1 could be piloted by sharon apple asa proper weapon in the event of a new war against hostile protoculture experiments that escaped thier labs, maaaan think of all the cool things you could do with that?

Whole fleets would be AI controlled to go out and fight the wars for us while we stay at home waiting for the spoils with no risk. I often wonder if the Bird human got into a fight against sharon apple (inside SDF1 controlling it), who do you think would win? :D Teams of SDF1's in attack mode versus PC bird humans might an idea for the the next series.

"The year is 3000 AD: Humans, Zentradi and protoculture are long extinct. (they are having a huge party at the centre of the galaxy along with the SDF1's vanished fold drives) Now the war begins between the AI controlled Super Dimensional Fortresses and thier hated enemies, the Bird humans who tried to destroy planet earth because people couldn't get along."

Edited March 21, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Guest Bromgrev]

Technological feasibilty aside, who really wants to watch future Macross (please  ?) anime with AI or direct-brain controlled mecha?

If the SDF1 could be piloted by sharon apple asa proper weapon in the event of a new war against hostile protoculture experiments that escaped thier labs, maaaan think of all the cool things you could do with that?

"The year is 3000 AD: Humans, Zentradi and protoculture are long extinct. (they are having a huge party at the centre of the galaxy along with the SDF1's vanished fold drives) Now the war begins between the AI controlled Super Dimensional Fortresses and thier hated enemies, the Bird humans who tried to destroy planet earth because people couldn't get along."

What?! Anime with no cute anime girls? Never! ... Unless all the AI's had holograms like Sharon Apple ...

[JB0]

Technological feasibilty aside, who really wants to watch future Macross (please  ?) anime with AI or direct-brain controlled mecha?

But in macross zero we have a mech that is brain controlled by sara. Wouldn't it be better to have mechs that could learn you, rather than you learning how to control them? Imagine the time you'd save not having to train yourself to use one?

At the cost of a limited interface.

You could eat a bowl of noodles using your hands while using your mind to blast other mechs. I think that would be cool!  

That's not really doable if the machine learns you, because the machine has to reinterpret your existing movement concepts.

I think machines controlled with brainwaves are interesting. I hope in a future series of macross they don't totally ditch the idea of brain controlled mechs and support drones which act like sentry guns (similar to aliens) which can guard an area while the human is elswhere.

They had drones in the original series. You just don't see them much.