Star Wars Episode 3 Spoilers Thread

[Ladic]

Sifo Dyas (or however it's spelled) was just another Jedi Master - totally different guy than Dooku or Palpatine and he did order the clones.

And unfortunately, with Sifo Dyas dead, you will never know why he ordered the clones.

Vader might just be able to to move faster than he did in the OT, just he didn't need to.

I prefer the Lucas explaination. First he's fighting an old man (who's last saber fight was 20 years ago). Then he's fighting a kid (who just got a lightsaber). Luke doesn't have the experience that Obi-Wan had. Obi-wan still has the skill but he doesn't have the stamina he had 20 years ago. He can't do a long fight like when he faced Anakin-Vader the last time (ep. 3).

yeah that sucks, I would of like to know why he did it.

About the vader fighting, it makes sense, remeber in ESB, when he is fighting luke, he isnt really going on all, until Luke manages to hit him in the arm, and then vader gets pissed and not 2 seconds later, BAAAM, lukes hand is gone.

[Zor Primus]

In ANH...I'll concur that Kenobi was too old to be more then a match for Vader.

The duel in ESB is more a test of Luke's skills then anything else. If you watch it the first part of the duel in the freezing chamber Vader is taking him on with one hand.

He toyed with him in the room where he launched everything but the refresher at Luke with the Force.

In the control room he really laid it on him to finish playtime and break Luke's will.

ROTJ, he had his hands full against Luke, still managed to gain the upper hand until he pushed Luke over...damn Skywalker temper!

[marx]

So, Syfo Dyas is Darth Siddious?

Siddious got his extreme force powers by cloning Midiclorians and transplanting them into himself.

Which then lead to an imbalance in the force. Thus Anakin was conceived by Midiclorians to bring balance to the force.

As Syfo Dyas, he has to fake his death and of course disguise himself from the other jedi.

Edited April 15, 2005 by marx

[Dobber]

This is a quote from the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary, in regards to Sifo Dyas.:

"Dooku's turn to the Dark side began with the murder of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, his former friend and confidant in the Order. Assuming control of the plans Sifo-Dyas had set in motion to create a clone army for the Republic, Dooku saw to it that all mention of the planet Kamino was erased from Jedi Archives."

Still doesn't explain WHY Sifo-Dyas did it in the first place. Possibly a plan from Sidious to get Dooku to turn to the Dark side by murdering his friend who thought he would be the Sith apprentice.

[Matt Random]

I figured that Syfo Dyas was Sidious (or Sidious posing as a Jedi he had recently disposed of). Sidious knew that the Clones were there. It was all part of his grand plan to play both sides against each other. One of the comics that came out shortly after AotC showed how Dooku, working as an agent of Sidious, recruited Jango to be the clone source which implies that the clones were ordered by Sidious. Since comics aren't canon this could just be how the author saw it.

Furthermore, it could be that the assasination attempts on Padme were set up by Sidious so that the Jedi would ultimately track Jango down and learn of the clones. IIRC, Nute Gunray was behind that attempts, but we know that he was manipulated by Sidious. It's no coincidence that the Jedi just happen to find out about the clone army at a time when Palpatine has been pushing the Senate to create a standing army. There's a lot of things I don't like about the prequels but I have to admit that the whole Palpatine rise to power story is pretty well thought out.

I've always had a bit of a problem with the whole "bring balance to the force" thing. Why the heck do the Jedi want to being balance? What did they expect to accomplish? There's like a zillion of them and 2 Sith. I guess maybe Anakin did succed in bringing balance since at the beginning of ANH there are apparently only 2 Sith and 2 Jedi left.

The discussion about cloning Anakin and Vader not being all that agile are interesting. I think that Sidious got Anakin exactly to the state that he wanted. Anakin is full or rage and he feels betrayed by everyone. He's also beyond the point of turning back. Also, Sidious may have built a fail safe into the cybernetics to control Anakin. He may have been so shocked by Vader's betrayal after 25 years that he wasn't able to use the failsafe - and I think Vader got him from behind.

We may not have seen Vader's full potential in the OTC. Obi-wan didn't really put up a fight (it's my take that Obi-wan was just stalling to let the others get away) and Luke wasn't too much of a challenge until the very end. In addition, Vader may have been out of practice since he hadn't faced a Jedi in a while.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Matt Random

[marx]

So Syfo Dias coud still possibly be Siddious. Siddious needed to have a companion go darkside with him. Only way to get that to happen is by faking his death.

Other possible thing. Palpatine could be a person without force powers. He killed Syfo Dias and cloned Dias's midiclorians. Then transplanted the midiclorians into himself. Those politicians can't be trusted. Always wanting power.

[Ladic]

marx, what the hell are you talking about? sidious/palpetine has never been a jedi.

[azrael]

marx, what the hell are you talking about? sidious/palpetine has never been a jedi.

Exactly....

Other possible thing. Palpatine could be a person without force powers. He killed Syfo Dias and cloned Dias's midiclorians. Then transplanted the midiclorians into himself.

Huh?

[marx]

Darth Siddious has force powers, right? Was he born with them or did he acquire them? A lightsaber is not considered a Jedi weapon?

"Take your Jedi weapon, strike me down with all your hatred"

"I saw your Laser sword, only Jedi carry that kind of weapon"

Could Pappy once have been a Jedi? We see Siddious wielding Red Lightsaber. Siddious equals Palpatine right?

Then you'll say, but Maul is not a Jedi and he had a lightsabre. That is true, but Maul is an apprentice. If his master was a Jedi, the apprentice would be trained in similar forms of combat.

Anyways, to better explain one of my theories. What if Palpatine was a person lacking the force? What if he acquired the force from stolen midiclorians. Regular people can kill Jedi. Jango did it with ease. Why can't Pappy without force powers kill someone. It is a leap. But so is some of these other ideas.

Don't get so offended jeez.

[Ladic]

there are NO theories, the novel/graphic novel is already out and explains palpatines background.

[azrael]

Palps was probably born with the potential to use the Force like all other Force users (Jedi/Sith/etc). He just happened to be found by a Sith lord.

A lightsaber is not considered a Jedi weapon?

It's also a Sith weapon, who also are trained in the Jedi arts (okay, the Sith version of the Jedi arts).

"Take your Jedi weapon, strike me down with all your hatred"

Palps was tempting Luke to kill him to lure him to the Dark Side....

"I saw your Laser sword, only Jedi carry that kind of weapon"

So do the Sith, but the Sith don't make a point of being seen around a lot.

Could Pappy once have been a Jedi? We see Siddious wielding Red Lightsaber. Siddious equals Palpatine right?

He's a Sith lord....

Then you'll say, but Maul is not a Jedi and he had a lightsabre.

He's also a Sith lord.

If his master was a Jedi, the apprentice would be trained in similar forms of combat.

Maybe his master was a Sith lord...

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organizat...sith/index.html

Edited April 16, 2005 by azrael

[Matt Random]

there are NO theories, the novel/graphic novel is already out and explains palpatines background.

I flipped through the graphic novel and saw what you're referring to. Its a tantalizing tidbit, but there's not too much there except for the mention of Palpie's master. Does the novel go into more detail? I'd love to know where Palpie came from. Is he from Naboo or was that all part of his grand scheme? How old is he? How did he first find his master? Is any of this answered in the book?

Also, how does the duel between Anakin and Obi-wan end? The graphic novel was a little light in that area.

Feel free to IM me if you don't want to post answers here. Thank you!

[Roy Focker]

Three questions:

One

Yoda kicks ass and jumps around all over the place in the prequels but 20 some years later he's a weak little pussy and then he dies I can see why he was killed off, so Luke would face the Emperor again alone but why have Yoda be a super fighting Jedi? He sure went down hill in 20 years.

Two

Okay the is only two Sith at a time. In ESB the Emperor and Vader both decide to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Were they both planning to have him replace the other? Vader wanted to rule with Luke and the Emperor wanted Luke to take Vader's place. Wouldn't the smart thing to do would be to kill Luke and everyone keeps their job?

Three

Vader seemed smart so why is Anakin so stupid? Anakin's a angry little stupid immature brat. We see that Vader is quick to choke people but he don't seem to whine about it like Anakin would.

[Max Jenius]

Three questions:

One

Yoda kicks ass and jumps around all over the place in the prequels but 20 some years later he's a weak little pussy and then he dies   I can see  why he was killed off, so Luke would face the Emperor again alone but why have Yoda be a super fighting Jedi?  He sure went down hill in 20 years.

Well, there are people that are still kickin a year before they die. Yoda has lived almost a millenia. Why do you assume that an alien ages exactly the same as a human?

Two

Okay the is only two Sith at a time.  In ESB the Emperor and Vader both decide to turn Luke to the Dark Side.  Were they both planning to have him replace the other?  Vader wanted to rule with Luke and the Emperor wanted Luke to take Vader's place.  Wouldn't the smart thing to do would be to kill Luke and everyone keeps their job?

Because; Luke was a valuable asset to both of them, and their rise to ultimate power.

Three

Vader seemed smart so why is Anakin so stupid?  Anakin's a angry little stupid immature brat.  We see that Vader is quick to choke people but he don't seem to whine about it like Anakin would.

Anakin was still a youngan, think about how you will be when you're 50. I know I'll probably be different. It wasn't that Anakin was stupid, he was a sucker for his emotions. That's one of the traps of the dark side, giving in to your emotions.

Oh, and nothing personal, but for some reason stealing someone's midichlorions sounds like the dumbest idea I've ever heard of for SW.

[Matt Random]

The last 20 years are always the hardest.

The Sith have a proud tradition of trying to kill each other. It's how they relax.

I got nothing.

I would have preferred for Yoda to be the old master guru type. I'm not too crazy about the lightsaber yielding super ball. It seems to me that becoming a Sith is a career limiting move. The only promotion path is to take your masters job and then there's some new snot nosed brat waiting to take yours. Hmm, on second thought it seems a lot like corporate America.

[marx]

Well, I don't read the novels, sorry. So Pappy had a master? What happend to Pappy's master? Who trained Pappy's master?

Who made the Jedi? Who made the Sith?

(dodges fruit)

[GreenGuy42]

Well, I don't read the novels, sorry. So Pappy had a master? What happend to Pappy's master? Who trained Pappy's master?

Who made the Jedi? Who made the Sith?

(dodges fruit)

The Sith were once a group of corrupt Jedi that were kicked out of the Order some millenia ago...

....they found a little out of the way planet (Korriban?) populated by a people, called the Sith...

I seem to recall that these creatures either taught them dark magics and/or made good slaves..

....either way, the Jedi interbred with the Sith until the two were indistinguishable and the former people went extinct.

Now, the Sith are more of an ideology instead of a true people.

Edit: The Jedi.. NO clue.. From what I recall from some of the EU, they're supposed to be older than the Republic itself.

Edited April 16, 2005 by GreenGuy42

[Uxi]

In the novelization, Sidious tells Anakin that he killed his master once he learned from him how to create life.

As far as the "balance" of the force, it's not about numbers of practioners. A properly trained Jedi always acts with the balance of the force in mind. Think of them as conservationists.

The Sith, OTOH, care nothing about balance. They use the force to augment themselves. Think of them as polluters. Sidious is the ultimate polluter. He's been casting a pall on the Jedi, "clouding their vision" and weakening their ability to use the Force (as both Dooku and Mace Windu say in AOTC).

Check the databank entries on the official site for the entries of the Jedi and the Sith for their histories.

[Chewie]

In the novelization, Sidious tells Anakin that he killed his master once he learned from him how to create life.

Which raises the question....did Palpatine or his master create Anakin?

He had no father. Plageous (sp) could make life out of nothing. Who's to say Anakin wasn't created just to become Vader?

The emergency landing on Tat - accelerates already laid plans.

Anakin's mother dying - Anger blah blah blah. There was nothing stopping Anakin's best friend and advisor from going to get her outside of the Jedi rules.

Maul dying - clearly Dooku was already making his move to become Sidous' new apprentice. Was needed.

Eh?

[azrael]

Three questions:

One

Yoda kicks ass and jumps around all over the place in the prequels but 20 some years later he's a weak little pussy and then he dies   I can see  why he was killed off, so Luke would face the Emperor again alone but why have Yoda be a super fighting Jedi?  He sure went down hill in 20 years.

Well if you were sitting there, talking to a ghost for 20 years.... He went from a big city to a freakin swamp.... the best form of entertianment is watching the moss grow.

Because; Luke was a valuable asset to both of them, and their rise to ultimate power.

Because Luke wasn't a cripple.

Anakin was still a youngan, think about how you will be when you're 50. I know I'll probably be different.

The joy of youth.....

[MrDisco]

Plageous (sp) could make life out of nothing. Who's to say Anakin wasn't created just to become Vader?

i'm quite sure that the whole 'create life' bit was a lie to tempt anakin. near the end of the book sidious tells vader "that power only Master truly achieved, but toegether we will find it"

[USCOLMRNE]

yoda gets f*cked up during th battle with Darth Sidius that he no longer fights. According to some rumors I heard, Yoda vs Darth Sidius is the 2nd longest fight in the whole star wars movie other than Anakin vs Obi Wan. After that huge lighting strike and Yoda falling soo many stories into the ground, I woudnt be surprised, the ol guy threw in the towel

[Dobber]

In the novelization, Sidious tells Anakin that he killed his master once he learned from him how to create life.

Which raises the question....did Palpatine or his master create Anakin?

He had no father. Plageous (sp) could make life out of nothing. Who's to say Anakin wasn't created just to become Vader?

The emergency landing on Tat - accelerates already laid plans.

Anakin's mother dying - Anger blah blah blah. There was nothing stopping Anakin's best friend and advisor from going to get her outside of the Jedi rules.

Maul dying - clearly Dooku was already making his move to become Sidous' new apprentice. Was needed.

Eh?

In the visual dictionary, it says that the Sith apprentices are easily replaceable to Sidious...a fact that Dooku and Maul failed to raealize. Sidious already had his "perfect" apprentice in mind aka Anakin. Question is when...After the Battle of Naboo or a short time after...."I'll be watching your Career with great intrest" or was it earlier as some have suggested.

It also says that the Mechano Vader is far from the perfect Sith Lord that Palpatine wanted.

Chris

[Max Jenius]

It also says that the Mechano Vader is far from the perfect Sith Lord that Palpatine wanted.

I think maybe its because Vader has plans to murder Palpatine by the end of Episode III.

[GreenGuy42]

It also says that the Mechano Vader is far from the perfect Sith Lord that Palpatine wanted.

I think maybe its because Vader has plans to murder Palpatine by the end of Episode III.

That's pretty much the nature of the Sith, though... Apprentice always lookin' to take the Master's place.

[Roy Focker]

As far as the "balance" of the force, it's not about numbers of practioners. A properly trained Jedi always acts with the balance of the force in mind. Think of them as conservationists.

The Sith, OTOH, care nothing about balance. They use the force to augment themselves. Think of them as polluters. Sidious is the ultimate polluter. He's been casting a pall on the Jedi, "clouding their vision" and weakening their ability to use the Force (as both Dooku and Mace Windu say in AOTC).

And that's why jedi suck. Damn if you had jedi power and you don't you them to some degree of personal gain you're an idiot. To me the jedi order seems like a bunch of snobs. With the Jedi Council living it up and telling everyone what to do. Like only they know what's best. You know Yoda's the biggest a-hole of them all always saying crap that's he been on the council hundreds of years and his opinion more important than anyone else. If some non council jedi (with less friends then Qui-gon) started preaching their own beliefs and took students you don't think the council wouldn't have a talk with them? They could label anyone they didn't like as heretic or worst Sith.

No they can't do that they are the good guys! Yes cause we're told they are. There just a bunch of upright snobs.

Wouldn't balance of the force be possible if their were no Jedi or Sith? If you had awesome power but know that it could be turned to evil why train anyone at all? Does possible good out weight the possible evil of the force?

[Chronocidal]

Hmm.. personally, I think the balance of the force thing has a lot to do with the way it is used, and not so much good and bad.. more like passive and active... sure, the force is powerful, can burn things up, lift things, choke people, shoot lightning... but it doesn't have to. Tim Zahn I think put this REALLY well in his Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future books.. It's not a big spoiler for those books if you haven't read them, but Luke realized sometime during those books that the force can work two ways.. either you control it, or it guides you. Luke had been using the force for various random tasks in everyday life to make things easier, ie, lifting R2 out of his ship, floating drinks to people, etc.. not anything that would lead to the dark-side, but still really pointless stuff. But he also realized that he was rarely getting any sort of guidance on what to do from it. It wasn't until that he kind of laid back, and cut back on his usage of the force that he was able to sense what was going on in the universe (past present and future), and what he should be doing. It's like he was using up his force-quota on meaningless junk, and not for what was needed.

So, it's like you can use the force, good or evil, in two ways.. I'll just call them passive and active modes. Palpy lives in passive evil, planning ahead with the force, only pulling out his powers for special occasions. Vader's more active evil, choking people and generally using his powers whenever he feels like it. Luke was a good guy, but still uses his powers actively, ie the double torpedo hole-in-one and the lightsaber in the ice. Then, at the top of the heap is Yoda. He almost never uses his powers for anything except wisdom and foresight, and only fights when threatened. He only lifted Luke's X-Wing to teach him a lesson.

If we want to hold up Yoda as the epitomy of force-wisdom, then ideally, you would use the force ONLY for foresight. The actual usage of the force for telekinesis, strength, healing, etc should be like a backup plan, since, if you were really in-tune with the force, and knew how things would turn out, you would be able to plan ahead, and not have to use it at all physically.

So, the ideal setup is to use the force for guidance and knowledge, and only turn to it's actual physical power when it's unavoidable. It's like the universe is in balance when the force isn't being used selfishly to change the way the universe is spinning.

That being said, the force would probably be seriously out of "balance" as long as Palpy's in power. You've got a serious force-psycho ruling the universe, using the force to bend events and people to his will. If we define "balance" as having the universe running without being unnecessarily influenced by the force, then Palpatine was tipping the scale on its side. In that light, the prophecy was true. Anakin DID bring balance to the force when he killed him.

Note, I have no literature to back up what I'm saying, this is just coming out of novels I've read that do appear to agree with the movies.

[Pat Payne]

After reading the novelization, I know now that GL must have read up on his history before writing this film. His conception of the fall of the Jedi reads quite a bit like the fall of the Knights Templar.

The Templars (for those who don't know the tale) were a company of Latin Christian Crusaders who had stayed on in Outremer (the areas of the Middle East taken by the Crusades) and whom, around 1118, formed the religio-military order to protect pilgrims coming from the West. The Templars had extremely stringent rules of behavior (Templars were not to come into contact with women at any time -- even after death, for instance) and were expected to neither give nor ask for any quarter in combat. By and by, the order became rich and powerful (mostly thanks to many bequests made to the order by members entering the order, as well as a odd side business of currency exchange and loans at interest the order fell into) and, as the Templars were under the nominal control of the Pope alone, the monarchs of Europe began to look upon the Templars with a mixture of envy, greed, and paranoia. Chief among them was King Phillip IV of France. By 1306, he had successfully petitioned the Pope, Clement V, with wild rumors of a Templar order out of control: Worshipping pagan -- even Satanic -- gods, blaspheming, committing homosexual acts and even usurping the authority of religious leaders by absolving each other's sins. None of these rumors were completely proven, but in the end, Clement acceeded to Phillip's request. On Friday, October 13, 1307, the Templars were suppressed brutally in France and elsewhere. Among those arrested was Jacques de Molay, the final Grand Master of the order (he would be executed in 1314). Some countries, such as England and Italy, would be more lenient towards the remaining Templars, although the order became extinct by the 15th Century.

Looked at it this way: Jedi=Templars; Mace Windu=(but not quite) Jacques de Molay; Palpatine=King Phillip/Pope Clement; Yoda and Obi-Wan=Surviving Templars in England and Italy. In short, much like Phillip, Palpatine wanted the Jedi Order destroyed for his own purposes, trumped up charges against the order, and used those charges to kill Mace Windu and any other Jedi he, the Clones or Vader could find. The object was different in details (Phillip wanted the Templar's cold, hard lucre -- Palpatine just wanted dead Jedi) but the spirit was the same: Malice.

[Cmdr. Grant]

Hmm.. personally, I think the balance of the force thing has a lot to do with the way it is used, and not so much good and bad.. more like passive and active... sure, the force is powerful, can burn things up, lift things, choke people, shoot lightning... but it doesn't have to. Tim Zahn I think put this REALLY well in his Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future books.. It's not a big spoiler for those books if you haven't read them, but Luke realized sometime during those books that the force can work two ways.. either you control it, or it guides you. Luke had been using the force for various random tasks in everyday life to make things easier, ie, lifting R2 out of his ship, floating drinks to people, etc.. not anything that would lead to the dark-side, but still really pointless stuff. But he also realized that he was rarely getting any sort of guidance on what to do from it. It wasn't until that he kind of laid back, and cut back on his usage of the force that he was able to sense what was going on in the universe (past present and future), and what he should be doing. It's like he was using up his force-quota on meaningless junk, and not for what was needed.

So, it's like you can use the force, good or evil, in two ways.. I'll just call them passive and active modes. Palpy lives in passive evil, planning ahead with the force, only pulling out his powers for special occasions. Vader's more active evil, choking people and generally using his powers whenever he feels like it. Luke was a good guy, but still uses his powers actively, ie the double torpedo hole-in-one and the lightsaber in the ice. Then, at the top of the heap is Yoda. He almost never uses his powers for anything except wisdom and foresight, and only fights when threatened. He only lifted Luke's X-Wing to teach him a lesson.

If we want to hold up Yoda as the epitomy of force-wisdom, then ideally, you would use the force ONLY for foresight. The actual usage of the force for telekinesis, strength, healing, etc should be like a backup plan, since, if you were really in-tune with the force, and knew how things would turn out, you would be able to plan ahead, and not have to use it at all physically.

So, the ideal setup is to use the force for guidance and knowledge, and only turn to it's actual physical power when it's unavoidable. It's like the universe is in balance when the force isn't being used selfishly to change the way the universe is spinning.

That being said, the force would probably be seriously out of "balance" as long as Palpy's in power. You've got a serious force-psycho ruling the universe, using the force to bend events and people to his will. If we define "balance" as having the universe running without being unnecessarily influenced by the force, then Palpatine was tipping the scale on its side. In that light, the prophecy was true. Anakin DID bring balance to the force when he killed him.

Note, I have no literature to back up what I'm saying, this is just coming out of novels I've read that do appear to agree with the movies.

Very well spoken.

[bsu legato]

New WEBDOC on the Official Site. Oh noes...t3h CGI!!!1!1eleven

[Apollo Leader]

So who's got their tickets yet for the opening day? I picked up today four tickets for the midnight showing and one ticket so I could see it by myself at 4:00 in the afternoon that same day at the Cinema Center here in Omaha.

[kalvasflam]

I agree with Focker.... the jedis are a bunch of snobs.... At least most of the masters. Obi-wan was a bit better in terms of how he acted toward others. My only regret is that no one sliced up Yoda in the end... he got a dose of humility from palpy, and he was still acting like a snob in the end.

Palpy was a little overboard, but then I just think of him as a dirty old man that couldn't get any and so decided to go on a power trip instead. See, if he only had regular access to the playboy channel while he was young, he wouldn't have turned out this way. How sad.

P.S. yes I'm a sith lord, but that's ok, I advocate playboy channel for everyone as a means of destroying the jedi rather than all this annoying mechanisation that Palpy likes so much.

[Apollo Leader]

Suprised no one mentioned this from the latest issue of Toyfare.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Apollo Leader

[Godzilla]

AHAHAHAHAHA. That was funny.

[Memphis Egyptologist]

yoda gets f*cked up during th battle with Darth Sidius that he no longer fights. According to some rumors I heard, Yoda vs Darth Sidius is the 2nd longest fight in the whole star wars movie other than Anakin vs Obi Wan. After that huge lighting strike and Yoda falling soo many stories into the ground, I woudnt be surprised, the ol guy threw in the towel

Don't forget that Yoda strained himself in ESB raising that X-Wing, which probably caused him to die in Return of the Jedi. At least that's what a good friend of mine thinks.