Most plausible mecha designs

[JELEINEN]

yup, also the Gears in Heavy Gear as well.. and if you're wearing a big power suit... why would you have to move the limbs around based human strength? the whole idea is that the user directs the suit through his/her movements, the suit reads this and amplifies the action.

I like the gears since they are small... I find the biggest draw back with most mech desings is how freaking huge they are... they just make huge noisy targets... smaller 10ft tall units could have a much easier time hiding and being transportated... it allows you to have way more units on the field with the same transport technology.

The Heavy Gear designs are VOTOMs with just a few cosmetic changes.

[JELEINEN]

If you took the fin things off the shoulders and scaled em down to 20-25 feet tall...the EVAs are by far the most plauseable humanoid designs....the Super robot Red Baron would be my number two pick

There are big problems with Votoms, Labors, even Madox and such...try sticking 20lbs of wieght around your ankles, put on some oversize clown shoes, then run around...it ain't easy, and has nothing to do with your leg strength...the weight shifts your normal weight bias around more closely mimicing typical "realistic" mecha...course the clown shoes mimic the oversize lower legs and feet...course those designs also overlook another very important part of humanoid anatomy...our flexible back and shoulders...in short if you want it to move like a human, well it really needs to have the same wieght bias and flexability...

Another thing to think about...say you set out to design a mecha that can run 60 miles per hour...each foot wieghs one ton...it has a 80 foot stride running this fast...lets see in one minute that mech travels 5280 feet, which means it makes 66 strides to cover that distance....thats a bit over one per second...so every second the mech must pick its 2,000 pound foot up...swing it forward some 80 feet at greater then 60MPH....plant it back on the ground again to repeat the cycle ... Now if you can design a trouble free low maintance ankle, knee, and hip joint that can take that much stress and punishment...then you will quickly find that such joints DO NOT need armor protection

Not that I'm into mecha for plauseability and/or realisam anyway

So you're saying every giant robot is unrealistic except a giant human clone which completely ignores the square-cube law. Whatever, pal.

[FlyingPika]

this one:

[HWR MKII]

The power loader from Aliens seems most plausable. The design speaks for itself.

[jipe]

... from "Blue Gender" (with wheels if necessary)

I like too the "Aliens" one as a first generation mecha...

The big (really big) size is not always a good thing, see the fortress armor during WWII (russian, french, german Maus,...)...it depends who are the enemies and their weapons !

[MSW]

So you're saying every giant robot is unrealistic except a giant human clone which completely ignores the square-cube law. Whatever, pal.

Learn to READ!

Right here the very first thing I wrote:

If you took the fin things off the shoulders and scaled em down to 20-25 feet tall...the EVAs are by far the most plauseable humanoid designs

Spoke of a modified EVA - even then made no mention, or even any intention, of baseing this assestment on the inner workings of the design. In short if you want a mecha to perform like a human, be able to navigate a wide variety of terrain, jump, climb, pick itself up unassisted from a fall, carry a variety of weapons ... well its going to have to be basied on a humans joint, mobility and weight bias structure...

Votoms, Labors and Heavy Gear fail because the legs shift weight bias tword the feet...and togther with Gasaraki, they all overlook the drastic importance of our backbone and flexable shoulders...EVA takes most all of that into consideration, and thus if you scaled them way, WAY down and took off those fin things on thier shoulders you end up with a very plauseable design able to mimic most human motion and flexability.

And if the human basied mecha can't run through an obstical course like soldiers do...includeing crawling around on its hands and knees, climbing rock walls, balanceing on beams, and picking itself up from a fall...then the mecha is far to specialized to be of much good especialy in combat

...

The power loader from Aliens seems most plausable. The design speaks for itself

it was a guy in a suit, held up with wires and support beam out the back...it was not real, wasn't even made of metal...and the design, speaking for itself, has lots of problems - number one is that it could not lift the cargo containers without some form of counter balance to offset the additional wieght placed on the design...additionaly it doesn't have the physical mobility in the legs to carry such loads...

[GobotFool]

The power loader from Aliens seems most plausable. The design speaks for itself

it was a guy in a suit, held up with wires and support beam out the back...it was not real, wasn't even made of metal...and the design, speaking for itself, has lots of problems - number one is that it could not lift the cargo containers without some form of counter balance to offset the additional wieght placed on the design...additionaly it doesn't have the physical mobility in the legs to carry such loads...

The power loader is true movie magic. Some contruction companies were so convinced it was real that they called 20th Century Fox wondering where they could order one.

[eugimon]

So you're saying every giant robot is unrealistic except a giant human clone which completely ignores the square-cube law. Whatever, pal.

Learn to READ!

Right here the very first thing I wrote:

If you took the fin things off the shoulders and scaled em down to 20-25 feet tall...the EVAs are by far the most plauseable humanoid designs

Spoke of a modified EVA - even then made no mention, or even any intention, of baseing this assestment on the inner workings of the design. In short if you want a mecha to perform like a human, be able to navigate a wide variety of terrain, jump, climb, pick itself up unassisted from a fall, carry a variety of weapons ... well its going to have to be basied on a humans joint, mobility and weight bias structure...

Votoms, Labors and Heavy Gear fail because the legs shift weight bias tword the feet...and togther with Gasaraki, they all overlook the drastic importance of our backbone and flexable shoulders...EVA takes most all of that into consideration, and thus if you scaled them way, WAY down and took off those fin things on thier shoulders you end up with a very plauseable design able to mimic most human motion and flexability.

And if the human basied mecha can't run through an obstical course like soldiers do...includeing crawling around on its hands and knees, climbing rock walls, balanceing on beams, and picking itself up from a fall...then the mecha is far to specialized to be of much good especialy in combat

...

The power loader from Aliens seems most plausable. The design speaks for itself

it was a guy in a suit, held up with wires and support beam out the back...it was not real, wasn't even made of metal...and the design, speaking for itself, has lots of problems - number one is that it could not lift the cargo containers without some form of counter balance to offset the additional wieght placed on the design...additionaly it doesn't have the physical mobility in the legs to carry such loads...

Well, technical, an EVA isn't even a mech.. it's a big electric powered human/angel hybrid with armor that gets its neural impulses from the pilot... so it is actually the LEAST plausible out of the mechs mentioned...

[JELEINEN]

So you're saying every giant robot is unrealistic except a giant human clone which completely ignores the square-cube law. Whatever, pal.

Learn to READ!

Right here the very first thing I wrote:

If you took the fin things off the shoulders and scaled em down to 20-25 feet tall...the EVAs are by far the most plauseable humanoid designs

Spoke of a modified EVA - even then made no mention, or even any intention, of baseing this assestment on the inner workings of the design. In short if you want a mecha to perform like a human, be able to navigate a wide variety of terrain, jump, climb, pick itself up unassisted from a fall, carry a variety of weapons ... well its going to have to be basied on a humans joint, mobility and weight bias structure...

Votoms, Labors and Heavy Gear fail because the legs shift weight bias tword the feet...and togther with Gasaraki, they all overlook the drastic importance of our backbone and flexable shoulders...EVA takes most all of that into consideration, and thus if you scaled them way, WAY down and took off those fin things on thier shoulders you end up with a very plauseable design able to mimic most human motion and flexability.

And if the human basied mecha can't run through an obstical course like soldiers do...includeing crawling around on its hands and knees, climbing rock walls, balanceing on beams, and picking itself up from a fall...then the mecha is far to specialized to be of much good especialy in combat

...

The power loader from Aliens seems most plausable. The design speaks for itself

it was a guy in a suit, held up with wires and support beam out the back...it was not real, wasn't even made of metal...and the design, speaking for itself, has lots of problems - number one is that it could not lift the cargo containers without some form of counter balance to offset the additional wieght placed on the design...additionaly it doesn't have the physical mobility in the legs to carry such loads...

I did read it. Even at the height you give, it's still incredibly far-fetched. Much more so than most mechanical robots. In the real world, people who suffer from gigantism are incredibly frail. The Evas, especially with their thin proportions, are just going to be that much more so, even at only 20' tall.

[Mechwolf]

The power loader is true movie magic. Some contruction companies were so convinced it was real that they called 20th Century Fox wondering where they could order one.

That is because in the 80's, the US Airforce were test using powerloaders. According to a Discovery Channel website I happened across 8 or 9 years ago, The US Airforce were field testing them to see if they were worth the effort. Ultimately, they decided not to mass produce them due to the weight instability. According a military aircraft enthusiat that I trust, the powerloaders from 'Aliens' are those very same test units rented out to 20th Century Fox.

[Kin]

AFC-01H Legioss

[Opus]

I've been wondering, what happens to the pilot of a legioss in armo-soldier mode? Does the cockpit right itself like a VF-1 or does he just hang there on the back sitting upside down untill all of his blood rushes into his head?

[Feyd-Rautha]

ahhh mospeada,

when viewing.... i always try too suspend dis-belife; by imagining that the materials and technologies shown are some how capable of existing in the far future: 100 ++ years from now.

...just apparently un-feasable by TODAY's technology limitations

like the ride armors ...they seem totally un-feasable in some regards.."hey, the tires on shoulders would throw you off balance!" they say....

....yet what if the materials used on the tank and tires were super-light wieght ???? and other components were heavier too compensate?

plus the transformation sequense itself.. seemingly impossible ...by TODAY's understanding of technology+physics

who really know what is possible in the future.

they said space flight was IMPOSSIBLE ...they don't say that anymore!

[HWR MKII]

actually mechwolf the powerloader was designed by James Cameron and was a fiberglass shell with a stunt man inside operating it with Sigourney Weaver riding on him. im in the air force and we have tested no such device as a power loader. theres nothing we could use it on. I work in acft weapons and most acft sit too low to use that to load it and cargo acft are so big that it wouldnt be efficient to use it to load the acft.

The loader in the movie was supported from the sound stage with wires taking the load off the frame of it and allowing the stuntman to move it.

Although its a guy in a suit considering the way bipedal robotics are going and advancements in tech it could be possible . I also read that Cameron wanted to do a scene in the film with Ripley working outside in space in a loader to show the fact there wer e strong magnets in the feet . i think those would keep it from tipping over under some loads. plus since when is animated film not magic? lol.

Edited February 15, 2005 by HWR MKII

[Kin]

I always think that the boots have some spring powered properties..

hmm the question if it's turning or not... if you look at this pic the hudd has gone somewhere.. but he's near the rotation point so it's just like doin a salto.

Edited February 15, 2005 by Kin

[Feyd-Rautha]

yeah the boots...collapse in size significantly..and are ultra light wieght.

[CoryHolmes]

My choices would the the Tactical Armours from Gasaraki (minus the Eva-cloned plot, that is) and the MADOX.

From non-anime sources, I'd go with the Glitter Boy and SAMAS power armours from Rifts. They always struck me as the most plausable mecha I'd ever seen.

[Greyryder]

Megas XLR! If I were going to build a giant robot, I'd deffinately use a classic musclecar for the head.

Seriously, I always liked the Bushwacker from Battletech. It's designed to provide as little frontal target as possible. It's also armed to the teeth.

[Mr March]

I'd mostly agree with Gobotfool. Most plausible mecha designs in anime would be the Crab-Type Standard Light Tank from Ghost in the Shell and the multi-legged MBT's like the HAL X-10 and RADHA from Patlabor. You basically get all the heavy firepower advantages of a tank with the bonus of more speed/manuverability, enhanced terrain adaptation, variable height, reduced land warfare vulnerability, improved stealth, etc. At the same time, such hardware is not that great a step up from current military equipment. The increased maintenance and material/logistic costs of these "Mecha Tanks" are well within the grasp of future military spending and technological capability.

As for humanoid style mecha, the smaller the mech, the more plausible and practical in my opinion...to a degree. Mecha like those featured in Gundam, Evangelion, and Macross would be far too large to be practical. The costs involved in the construction of even a single such mecha of that size would be prohibitive. Smaller mecha like the Patrol Labors in Patlabor and the Battlemechs in Battletech/Mechwarrior would be much more feasable.

On the flip side, mecha that are much too small would not be of any use to a well equipped military. Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha. Also, mecha units that small would be armored too lightly to offer any advantage over heavy infantry weapons. Even today, modern heavy infantry units possess sufficiently powerful weapons to destroy tanks and other heavily armored hardware (ala anti-tank rockets).

Personal powered armor suits like Mospeada Ride Armors, Bubblegum Crisis Hardsuits, and other such form-fitting armored suits would only be practical without all the amazing abilities they possess in the respective anime series. Putting aside the obvious question of how one would build an engine/reactor small enough to form-fit as part of the suit, such mecha are marvels of miniturization to such a degree that would not be possible in our conceivable future. Just thinking off the top of my head, heat management and radar vulnerability would be the biggest flaws to overcome in such a design.

Fielding of superior firepower and stealth are probably the two most important considerations when the military conceives any new piece of equipment. Sadly, most anime mecha would fail those tests given a reasonable prediction of our future technological capabilities.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Mr March

[Opus]

Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha.

I have to disagree with this statement. Mechs of that size would be able to go places a jeep couldn't. I doesn't take much to stop a wheeled vehicle and the current gulf war has taught the army just how vunerable helos are. I can't really speak for the Gasaraki but the scopedog can carry a buttload of heavy weapons.

[Montarvillois]

I think this one is the most plausible

[Mr March]

Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha.

I have to disagree with this statement. Mechs of that size would be able to go places a jeep couldn't. I doesn't take much to stop a wheeled vehicle and the current gulf war has taught the army just how vunerable helos are. I can't really speak for the Gasaraki but the scopedog can carry a buttload of heavy weapons.

The whole point of a feasable small mecha would be to provide a significant military resource that could go places a light vehicle could not, while at the same time possessing more advantages over conventional infantry that can go anywhere. In this list of criteria would as be such oft-forgotten considerations like cost-benefit of the mecha unit, operational endurance compared to conventional units, unforseen vulnerabilites of an unconvetional humanoid mecha, worth of the mecha unit as compared to the combined arms of the military, etc.

From where I stand, a realistic analysis of those anime mecha within the scope of our foreseeable future technological abilities would not provide a viable result.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Mr March

[myk]

The Ghost fighters in Macross. Considering our current unmanned aircraft technology, are we really that far away from something like that?

[Opus]

Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha.

I have to disagree with this statement. Mechs of that size would be able to go places a jeep couldn't. I doesn't take much to stop a wheeled vehicle and the current gulf war has taught the army just how vunerable helos are. I can't really speak for the Gasaraki but the scopedog can carry a buttload of heavy weapons.

The whole point of a feasable small mecha would be to provide a significant military resource that could go places a light vehicle could not, while at the same time possessing more advantages over conventional infantry that can go anywhere. In this list of criteria would as be such oft-forgotten considerations like cost-benefit of the mecha unit, operational endurance compared to conventional units, unforseen vulnerabilites of an unconvetional humanoid mecha, worth of the mecha unit as compared to the combined arms of the military, etc.

From where I stand, a realistic analysis of those anime mecha within the scope of our foreseeable future technological abilities would not provide a viable result.

It's OK if we don't agree but to in my opinion the scopedog meets all of your criteria. It's capable of carring a multitude of weaponsystems. It's able to handle enviroments where conventional vehicles can not operate, including zero-G. cost is irrelevant to thics discussion since these are fantasy designs it's impossible to put a pricetag on them except to say that the fact that they exist in thier respective universes means that they must be cost effective to produce.

[Akilae]

Just flipping through my old DOS/V games, and came upon Power DOLLS... decent size (big enough to haul around 120 mm tank cannons as "rifles"), form-fitting (the pilot straps in I think), and not a lot of funky capabilities like jump jets or anti-grav pods.

'sides, you can't beat an all-women combat team

[Mr March]

Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha.

I have to disagree with this statement. Mechs of that size would be able to go places a jeep couldn't. I doesn't take much to stop a wheeled vehicle and the current gulf war has taught the army just how vunerable helos are. I can't really speak for the Gasaraki but the scopedog can carry a buttload of heavy weapons.

The whole point of a feasable small mecha would be to provide a significant military resource that could go places a light vehicle could not, while at the same time possessing more advantages over conventional infantry that can go anywhere. In this list of criteria would as be such oft-forgotten considerations like cost-benefit of the mecha unit, operational endurance compared to conventional units, unforseen vulnerabilites of an unconvetional humanoid mecha, worth of the mecha unit as compared to the combined arms of the military, etc.

From where I stand, a realistic analysis of those anime mecha within the scope of our foreseeable future technological abilities would not provide a viable result.

It's OK if we don't agree but to in my opinion the scopedog meets all of your criteria. It's capable of carring a multitude of weaponsystems. It's able to handle enviroments where conventional vehicles can not operate, including zero-G. cost is irrelevant to thics discussion since these are fantasy designs it's impossible to put a pricetag on them except to say that the fact that they exist in thier respective universes means that they must be cost effective to produce.

Actually, no it isn't. The only way to begin questioning whether one mecha is more plausible than another is to take our current understanding and apply it to the supposed reality of such vehicles. Otherwise, where can a comparison even begin? If we accept the physics and economics unique to each individual anime series while silmultaneously we suspend our disbeleif indiscriminantly, one mecha is EQUALLY as plausible as the next. In that case, the more outrageous, fantastic, or magical the abilities of the mecha, the better it is as the mecha of choice.

Obviously, this is a ridiculous and dead-end way in which to analyze "plausibility".

So we return to my original assesment and the reasoning behind it. This makes the afformentioned Patlabor and GITS mecha the more plausible.

[Zentrandude]

im in the air force and we have tested no such device as a power loader.

While the powerloader was movie magic I highly doubt your high enough rank and position to know all the black ops/special research programs and still be alive to type that on the internet. Heck my uncle was in the navy and he couldn't tell us and his wife the title of his job.

[Opus]

Mecha featured in VOTOMS, Gasaraki, and the like would be too small to carry arms of any significance that would make the units more useful than current light vehicles. Armed jeeps, assault armor, and other light attack vehicles would be infinitely more versatile, cheap, and useful than small mecha.

I have to disagree with this statement. Mechs of that size would be able to go places a jeep couldn't. I doesn't take much to stop a wheeled vehicle and the current gulf war has taught the army just how vunerable helos are. I can't really speak for the Gasaraki but the scopedog can carry a buttload of heavy weapons.

The whole point of a feasable small mecha would be to provide a significant military resource that could go places a light vehicle could not, while at the same time possessing more advantages over conventional infantry that can go anywhere. In this list of criteria would as be such oft-forgotten considerations like cost-benefit of the mecha unit, operational endurance compared to conventional units, unforseen vulnerabilites of an unconvetional humanoid mecha, worth of the mecha unit as compared to the combined arms of the military, etc.

From where I stand, a realistic analysis of those anime mecha within the scope of our foreseeable future technological abilities would not provide a viable result.

It's OK if we don't agree but to in my opinion the scopedog meets all of your criteria. It's capable of carring a multitude of weaponsystems. It's able to handle enviroments where conventional vehicles can not operate, including zero-G. cost is irrelevant to thics discussion since these are fantasy designs it's impossible to put a pricetag on them except to say that the fact that they exist in thier respective universes means that they must be cost effective to produce.

Actually, no it isn't. The only way to begin questioning whether one mecha is more plausible than another is to take our current understanding and apply it to the supposed reality of such vehicles. Otherwise, where can a comparison even begin? If we accept the physics and economics unique to each individual anime series while silmultaneously we suspend our disbeleif indiscriminantly, one mecha is EQUALLY as plausible as the next. In that case, the more outrageous, fantastic, or magical the abilities of the mecha, the better it is as the mecha of choice.

Obviously, this is a ridiculous and dead-end way in which to analyze "plausibility".

So we return to my original assesment and the reasoning behind it. This makes the afformentioned Patlabor and GITS mecha the more plausible.

I think you're confusing practical with plauible. There are tons of mechs that could be plausibly made but none of them are practical. If they were they'd have been made.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. There's no point in arguing over which made up robot is more realistic than the other. Were both set in our opinions so just leave it at that.

[1st Border Red Devil]

I think you're confusing practical with plausible. There are tons of mechs that could be plausibly made but none of them are practical. If they were they'd have been made.

Exactly, Opus.

Mecha, especially humanoid form mecha, are going to be extremely subsceptible to being destroyed by a single soldier with a anti-tank rocket. Again, even with armour like chobham and glacis like that of an Abrams is only going to be able to protect certain areas. Those areas that are vulnerable will be easily exploited by soldiers who are not inside an armour plated behemoth.

Look at a cost analysis:

Mecha - Probably a hundred million to develop and outfit a single armoured brigade.

Battalion of infantry outfitted with 'fire-and-forget' anti-tank rockets - Maybe 10 million at most.

[MSW]

That is because in the 80's, the US Airforce were test using powerloaders. According to a Discovery Channel website I happened across 8 or 9 years ago, The US Airforce were field testing them to see if they were worth the effort. Ultimately, they decided not to mass produce them due to the weight instability. According a military aircraft enthusiat that I trust, the powerloaders from 'Aliens' are those very same test units rented out to 20th Century Fox.

Might want to reconsider that trust in your friend...or at least reconsider your trust in his sources...Its been a well reportated fact the power loaders were just suits, hell the SE DVD even have behind the scenes pics and video on them...the commentary even talks about them...Hell the fact the entire film (and it was a rather low budgit flick too) was shot in England should tip you off...if the US government can't trust some of thier own soldiers with such "secret" test equipment...why on earth would they trust an civillion english unionised film crew?...second tip should be the fact the R&D for US military equipment (even the super secret stuff) is contracted out...

Anyway...

Years ago (about 1990 IIRC) there was a traveling musium exibit on movie special effects that I visited in Chicago...the centerpiece of the exibit was the fullsize powerloader and queen alien from the film posed with a mannaquin of ripley in mock battle...the loader (and queen for all that matters) wern't very impressive in person...much smaller then they seemed in the film...off to one side were the about 1/4th scale rod puppet minatures of both loader and queen used for certain shots ...and to the other side were loads of behind the scene photos and looped video of how they were constructed and performed for the film...I've seen it in person, close enough to touch...so if it was "real" as your friend claimes, then why has the government not hunted me down along with the thousands of others whom saw it on exibit? why would they even allow it to be exibited in the first place?

[Mechwolf]

I think you guys are misunderating the use for which it "alegedly" was being produced. It was supposed to be a more efficient forklift, not a combat unit. It wasn't neccessarily a "black/ops" or "top secret" project. Just one about finding a safer & easier way to handle disposable payloads.

Maybe the Discovery Channel webpage I happened on was lying. My friend may have gotten mixed up about whether or not the 'Aliens' Power Loader was the same as the 'experimental' one. My friend said that they way he understood it, Cameron & company rented it for 2 or 3 days at about $200,000 per day. Used the real 1 for static shots and then 'faked' the Power Loader to get it to do the impressive movements from the film so as not to risk breaking a very expensive & unstable piece of equipment (& body parts). Of course I can't find this webpage anymore, or back any of this up & I know how this sounds. But I'm 90% certain that a Discovery Channel webpage flat out claimed that in the early to mid 1980's, the US Airforce was experimenting with humanoid forklifts atleast similar in design to the later conceived 'Aliens' Power Loader. Also I think it was only being tested at 1 base for it's trial run. Which makes sense. You don't want to outfit all the bases with an unproven product. I hope that this isn't just some sick delusion for which my mind is tricking itself with.

And like I said, if it really did exist, the Airforce dropped it because it basically sucked. But, what do I know?

[Mechwolf]

Found this while trying to find info on the power loader...

www.computercrowsnest.com/library/zones/2001/nz5800.php

"US Military want Starship Troopers, but for real this time !

01/02/2001. Source: Nest Contributor. Stephen Hunt

Do you remember that scene from Aliens when Sigourney Weaver climbs into the power loader and takes on the Alien Queen, giving the acid-spitting nasty the kicking of her life?

Hey, who get forget it? It was a seminal moment of cinematic science fiction. One crowd who have never forgotten it - apparently - are the egg heads over at DARPA, the USA's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Why? Because the is US military are now soliciting 'innovative research proposals' for EHPA - their Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation program.

Exoskeletons have a long and noble tradition in science fiction. In the original Heinlein novel, Starship Troopers, the power-armoured soldiers were more than a match for the bio-engineered monstrosities of the book, amplifying human strength hundreds of time, and carrying nuclear-missile launching backpacks.

This was of course, dumped for the more recent movie based on Heinlein's work … due to the SFX-time (and bucks) that would have been sucked up by the special effects wizards. Later works which extended this concept include Joe Haldeman's Forever War (and his more recent novel, Forever Peace), where the idea of power armour was given a gritty, violent post-Vietnam makeover.

More recently, our screen have been invaded by anime while manga has proliferated across our comic-shops, many featuring power-armour augmented humans fighting each other, aliens, monster and even Godzilla (Appleseed is the best of breed of this genre, by the way, with its artist/creator being influenced by Syd 'Bladerunner' Mead's visuals).

Anyway, not content with launching the 'Son of StarWars' missile shield, the US armed forces are now driving the military towards ever more sci-fi themed weapon system.

According to the tender document on DARPA's web site:

"The technological challenges that must be addressed are energy sources, power by generation, haptic interfaces, control algorithm development, as well as integration of actuation systems and all previously mentioned subsystems into a machine with an anthropomorphic architecture."

For the less technical among you, a haptic interface would be you reaching out, and your powered armour following your actions (rather than you pushing a joystick to get the same effect).

The goal of their project is to "develop devices and machines that will increase the speed, strength, and endurance of soldiers in combat environments."

DARPA continues: "Inclusion of exoskeleton technology into land based operations will extend the mission payload and/or mission range of the soldier. Exoskeletons will also increase the lethality and survivability of ground troops for short range and special operations. The enhanced mobility and load carrying capability provided by the exoskeleton will allow soldiers to carry more ballistic protection and heavy weaponry."

The base of what the US wants to achieve with their exo-armour project is:

assist pack-loaded locomotion,

prolong locomotive endurance

increase locomotive speed

augment human strength

leap extraordinary heights and/or distances.

We asked research leader Rebecca Marsh, based at the UK's Fort Halstead (the Brit version of DARPA) what she thought of the US's chances for developing an exo-armour prototype by their target date of 2005.

"If it was anyone but the Americans, I'd write this off as science fiction . It's not at the same level of technical challenge as the original failed 'Star Wars' program, though." Marsh commented. "Most of the basic systems to produce something like this already exist.Getting them down to infantry deployment size and making them battlefield robust would be the real challenge. You might end up with something closer to the house-tall fighting mechs of games like Battletech, though, rather than the Aliens' power loader scale. I doubt if they can do it for the $50 million they've got to spend, though."

Marsh went on about the current trends in weapons development. "This may be a bit of a PR smokescreen to cover some of the US's forward development plans for robot weapons, which are well advanced and currently far more realistic. Automated surveillance aircraft will be supplanted by attack craft this decade.

"You will also see robot sentries along the lines of the ED machines in Robocop - although they will be tracked and wheeled, rather than walkers. In autopilot mode, they'll recognise friends and foes by transponder codes, and have telecontrol for remote human 'piloting' via satellite.

"Our ability to sustain heavy battlefield casualties in the world of CNN & global news-hungry media has pushed modern nations into almost pacifist foreign policies. It's going to be much more acceptable to have your soldiers fighting a tele-war from the safety of the US, while machines do the dying in hotspots like Iraq."

For more details of the US's sci-fi weapons, surf on over to www.darpa.mil"

[MSW]

I think you guys are misunderating the use for which it "alegedly" was being produced. It was supposed to be a more efficient forklift, not a combat unit. It wasn't neccessarily a "black/ops" or "top secret" project. Just one about finding a safer & easier way to handle disposable payloads.

Makes little difference... I don't doubt military and contractors did at the time and will continue to look into an improved forklift, shoe, bullet, whatever...

But the claim that the aliens powerloader is a US military test unit is total BS...

Maybe the Discovery Channel webpage I happened on was lying. My friend may have gotten mixed up about whether or not the 'Aliens' Power Loader was the same as the 'experimental' one. My friend said that they way he understood it, Cameron & company rented it for 2 or 3 days at about $200,000 per day. Used the real 1 for static shots and then 'faked' the Power Loader to get it to do the impressive movements from the film so as not to risk breaking a very expensive & unstable piece of equipment (& body parts).

The entire Aliens film budget was just over $18 million...2 or 3 days at $200,000 eats a huge chunk of that...and 20th Century Fox would be damn sure to credit the manufacture if a real powerloader were used

Besides you are overlooking a number of things...Cameron started in the film industry as an SFX artist...He was well aware of anime at the time...and he personaly designed the entire look and mechanicals of the terminator...he has built models, even done matte paintings, he knew his SFX stuff even before starting on the Aliens film...He knew going in that they could "fake" it, he knrew going in that they could design and build such a SFX creation...

Of course I can't find this webpage anymore, or back any of this up & I know how this sounds. But I'm 90% certain that a Discovery Channel webpage flat out claimed that in the early to mid 1980's, the US Airforce was experimenting with humanoid forklifts atleast similar in design to the later conceived 'Aliens' Power Loader.

Like I said I dont doubt that...there have been all kinds of such prototype equipment built through history...heck GE had such working prototype machines back in the 1960s

Also I think it was only being tested at 1 base for it's trial run. Which makes sense. You don't want to outfit all the bases with an unproven product. I hope that this isn't just some sick delusion for which my mind is tricking itself with. 

And like I said, if it really did exist, the Airforce dropped it because it basically sucked. But, what do I know?

Yeah its the weight balance issue...sure a 200lbs man can lift a empty 10lbs TV box...and sure a 1 ton powerloader could have the strength to lift a 1000lbs shipping crate...but even with the strength the powerloader, due to balanceing issues, will move around with the same gracefullness, speed, and ease of a 200lbs man carrying 100lbs...and with electomagnetic feet for balanceing you will waste a lot of energy...not to mention the problems of secureing the metal flooring (keep it from popping up with the feet) with that much weight placed in a possition of mechanical leverage to pry the flooring loose...yeah its cool and all but when you have to redesign the hanger floor just to allow it all to work (atop of the engineering for the powerloader itself)...well might as well just put up with the tried and true forklift

[MSW]

Found this while trying to find info on the power loader...

Old news...says nothing about the Aliens powerloader being some real test unit and not a SFX...

Its also not supriseing either...look at all the R&D work, tests, and prototypes put into building a better JEEP over the decades.

[Mechwolf]

Old news...says nothing about the Aliens powerloader being some real test unit and not a SFX

I know. But I had not seen it posted here before, nor this...

www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/03/03_exo.shtml

UC Berkeley researchers developing robotic exoskeleton that can enhance human strength and endurance

By Sarah Yang, Media Relations | 03 March 2004

BERKELEY – The mere thought of hauling a 70-pound pack across miles of rugged terrain or up 50 flights of stairs is enough to evoke a grimace in even the burliest individuals. But breakthrough robotics research at the University of California, Berkeley, could soon bring welcome relief — a self-powered exoskeleton to effectively take the load off people’s backs.

"We set out to create an exoskeleton that combines a human control system with robotic muscle," said Homayoon Kazerooni, professor of mechanical engineering and director of UC Berkeley’s Robotics and Human Engineering Laboratory. "We’ve designed this system to be ergonomic, highly maneuverable and technically robust so the wearer can walk, squat, bend and swing from side to side without noticeable reductions in agility. The human pilot can also step over and under obstructions while carrying equipment and supplies."

The Berkeley Lower Extremity Exoskeleton (BLEEX), as it’s officially called, consists of mechanical metal leg braces that are connected rigidly to the user at the feet, and, in order to prevent abrasion, more compliantly elsewhere. The device includes a power unit and a backpack-like frame used to carry a large load.

Such a machine could become an invaluable tool for anyone who needs to travel long distances by foot with a heavy load. The exoskeleton could eventually be used by army medics to carry injured soldiers off a battlefield, firefighters to haul their gear up dozens of flights of stairs to put out a high-rise blaze, or rescue workers to bring in food and first-aid supplies to areas where vehicles cannot enter.

"The fundamental technology developed here can also be developed to help people with limited muscle ability to walk optimally," said Kazerooni.

The researchers point out that the human pilot does not need a joystick, button or special keyboard to "drive" the device. Rather, the machine is designed so that the pilot becomes an integral part of the exoskeleton, thus requiring no special training to use it. In the UC Berkeley experiments, the human pilot moved about a room wearing the 100-pound exoskeleton and a 70-pound backpack while feeling as if he were lugging a mere 5 pounds.

The project, funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, began in earnest in 2000. Next week, from March 9 through 11, Kazerooni and his research team will showcase their project at the DARPA Technical Symposium in Anaheim, Calif.

For the current model, the user steps into a pair of modified Army boots that are then attached to the exoskeleton. A pair of metal legs frames the outside of a person’s legs to facilitate ease of movement. The wearer then dons the exoskeleton’s vest that is attached to the backpack frame and engine. If the machine runs out of fuel, the exoskeleton legs can be easily removed so that the device converts to a large backpack.

More than 40 sensors and hydraulic actuators form a local area network (LAN) for the exoskeleton and function much like a human nervous system. The sensors, including some that are embedded within the shoe pads, are constantly providing the central computer brain information so that it can adjust the load based upon what the human is doing. When it is turned on, the exoskeleton is constantly calculating what it needs to do to distribute the weight so little to no load is imposed on the wearer.

"We are taking great pains to make this as practical and robust as possible for the wearer," said Kazerooni. "Several engineers around the world are working on motorized exoskeletons that can enhance human strength, but we’ve advanced our design to the point where a ‘pilot’ could strap on the external metal frame and walk in figure eights around a room. No one else has done that."

One significant challenge for the researchers was to design a fuel-based power source and actuation system that would provide the energy needed for a long mission. The UC Berkeley researchers are using an engine that delivers hydraulic power for locomotion and electrical power for the computer. The engine provides the requisite energy needed to power the exoskeleton while affording the ease of refueling in the field.

The current prototype allows a person to travel over flat terrain and slopes, but work on the exoskeleton is ongoing, with the focus turning to miniaturization of its components. The UC Berkeley engineers are also developing a quieter, more powerful engine, and a faster, more intelligent controller, that will enable the exoskeleton to carry loads up to 120 pounds within the next six months. In addition, the researchers are studying what it takes to enable pilots to run and jump with the exoskeleton legs.

The engineers point out that while the exoskeleton does the heavy lifting, the human contributes to the balance. "The pilot is not ‘driving’ the exoskeleton," said Kazerooni. "Instead, the control algorithms in the computer are constantly calculating how to move the exoskeleton so that it moves in concert with the human."

Appropriately enough, the first step in the project began with researchers analyzing the human step. They gathered information about how people walk and move — including the propulsive force and torque needed from the ankles and the shock absorbing power of the knees — so they could adapt the exoskeleton to a wide range of natural human movements.

"Many scientists and engineers have been attempting to build a robotic strength enhancing device since the 1950s, and they’ve failed," said Kazerooni. "It is only through recent engineering breakthroughs that this dream is now becoming a reality."

Also, John Deere (of all companies) used to have 2 concept Forestry vehicles that were 6 legged & had 2 "arms". Can't seem to find pix of those.

I found info on the GE Hardiman...

http://davidszondy.com/future/robot/hardiman.htm

An arm wrestler's dream! The General Electric Hardiman was as close as science got to a cyborg during the '60s; and even then, it was a stretch, since it was worn by its operator rather than grafted onto his body.

Hardiman was the first serious attempt to build a powered exoskeleton that could multiply the strength of the operator enough to allow him to lift 1500 lbs as if it was a packet of peanuts. General Electric had high hopes for Hardiman; envisioning it being used aboard aircraft carriers for bomb loading, underwater construction, in nuclear power plants, and in outer space, but by 1970 only one arm was actually made to work. It could lift 750 lbs and responded according to specs, but the thing weighed in at three quarters of a ton and any attempt to get its legs to work resulted in a fit of mechanical St. Vitus Dance. One arm does not an exoskelton make, so Hardiman faded off into development limbo.

I'm thinking this is what my friend may have been confused about. I wonder if 20TH Century Fox thought about renting it, & Cameron came up with a better looking (& cheaper) prop?

and he personaly designed the entire look and mechanicals of the terminator

And totaly ripped off Harlan Ellison's story.

Anyways, I think I figured out what is what on this OT issue.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Mechwolf