To be or not to be (Deluxe toys, that is)

[EXO]

I decided to post a whole new thread instead of derailing my poll.

So are toys more successful if they got the deluxe treament or should the toy companies be concentrating on the value versions more?

I voted 1/60 for essentially the reasons Chowser gives. 1/60's take up less room and they're in scale with more of the existing Macross toys.

Of course, the price can't help but be a factor in any real-world decision. I guess if they made both and kept the 1/48 prices down, I'd be tempted to grab a 1/48 Tomahawk as well as all four of the smaller destroids in 1/60.

(As for Zentradi mecha, I don't think I could house them at 1/48 scale.)

I know price is a factor. But for some reason the 1/48s are more successful than the 1/60s. So I believe that MWers would go towards detail and the deluxe treatment even if costs them a little bit more. People may say they want to save their money now, but as soon as it is announced, I know you guys will start ponying up the dough.

Would the Monster be as wanted if it was 1/144 scale?

Would the 1/100 VF-0 be vaporware if it would have got the deluxe treatment, meaning less parts swap and more detail? I don't believe so. The hype on that would have been a lot more positive if they had made it bigger.

Are more people waiting for the 1/48 GBP since they held out on the 1/60 version?

Is there anyone not getting the 1/48 GBP because they got the the 1/60 already.

Would be people like Godzilla and Kensei be sucking up all the 1/60s if the 1/48s weren't around?

And Destroids are smaller than valks. The valks maybe skinnier but not when they have FPs on, they sould be as bulky.

[Lynx7725]

Hmm, I think it really involves more factors than you mention.

There's always the legacy issue.. one, what are the other scales that the collector has. For Kensei and Godzilla, it's almost a forgone conclusion that they want everything in 1/48 (including the SDF-1.... ). But for the others, they most likely picked up a few 1/60 (I personally have 3), and for myself I would rather have the in-scale Destroids. As a display that makes more sense.

The other is whether the collector has more money or shelf space.. using your example, if they can turn out a Monster in 1/144 with good quality/ details and at a reasonable enough price, I would buy a whole squadron! 1/144 is really good for a packed shelf.

Then there's the prestiage issue. The 1/48 is generally acknowledged as the "must-have" Valk. For me, I would eventually get one, at most 2 1/48s.. but that's because they are high quality products and I would want one as a display piece. But I do intend to maintain my current 1/60s.

So can't really just say people will pony up cash relentlessly.. a lot depends on their situation. The 1/48, I think it's just fortunately to be big enough for details, small enough for display and cheap enough to be affordable. It's a good mix.

[EXO]

Hmm, I think it really involves more factors than you mention.

There's always the legacy issue.. one, what are the other scales that the collector has. For Kensei and Godzilla, it's almost a forgone conclusion that they want everything in 1/48 (including the SDF-1.... ). But for the others, they most likely picked up a few 1/60 (I personally have 3), and for myself I would rather have the in-scale Destroids. As a display that makes more sense.

The other is whether the collector has more money or shelf space.. using your example, if they can turn out a Monster in 1/144 with good quality/ details and at a reasonable enough price, I would buy a whole squadron! 1/144 is really good for a packed shelf.

Then there's the prestiage issue. The 1/48 is generally acknowledged as the "must-have" Valk. For me, I would eventually get one, at most 2 1/48s.. but that's because they are high quality products and I would want one as a display piece. But I do intend to maintain my current 1/60s.

So can't really just say people will pony up cash relentlessly.. a lot depends on their situation. The 1/48, I think it's just fortunately to be big enough for details, small enough for display and cheap enough to be affordable. It's a good mix.

Thanks, I appreciate a well thought out response.

Is it my imagination then that the bigger toys are more successful? And the as much as a well detailed smaller version would be welcomed it's almost as though, with Macross toys, such treatment can never be expected.

I mean sure the the Q-rau is 1/60 and the Konig is 1/100 but both were given the 1/48 type care as far as sculpt. A few people complained about the sculpt of the Q-rau, but I think it was more due to it's overpricing.

I'm pretty happy with my 1/100 Destroids due to it's heft and poseability. I just wish I can display them all at once. But it seems to me that toys like those are so few and far away from being manufactured. The only thing that comes close to that are the SOCs. But even then I believe that if the SOCs were bigger then the collectors would turn their sights toward those larger pieces.

[kensei]

Would be people like Godzilla and Kensei be sucking up all the 1/60s if the 1/48s weren't around?

Speaking for myself, I would say yes. Lynx and EXO were a little bit off in their analysis of me, because I would have gotten every 1/60 at ~$156 USD if I hadn't been able to register with MW. I would have collected them all too, but the 1/48 is the best valk out there hands down, and that is the only reason why I got it. I will be planning to add 12 1/60s to my collection soon, the VF-1D, VE-1 and VT-1, as there is no chance that Yamato will be making 1/48 scale fo them.

1/48 scale is not the reason why I got so many 1/48 scale Valkyries. If they were any scale between 1/40 -1/50 scale I would have got them. It is because they are etailed, transform very well, and just look so damn cool.

IF someone did release destroids in a scale that was not 1/48 I would still buy it. Providing it is at between 20 - 30 cm tall, with a give of 5 or so cms, I would very happily snap it up. Anything smaller would have my doubt that they would be articulated and detailed well or even be made of quality materials. Anything bigger would be too ridiculously big. There is no way I would want something like that on my shelf. And no, I do not want a 1/48 SDF-1! . *jumps up and down* I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T I DON'T !!!

I think that the 1/48 scale has become a very dirty number among us toy freaks of MW. Some argue it is too big, some say who cares.....from now on I will talk about actual size/length/width, hoping that I don't get branded as the "1/48 freak" of MW. Face it, the only reason most people are so fixated on 1/48 and 1/60 is because that is how we associated them with their respective companies, eg Yamato. 1/55 and 1/65 is associated with Bandais, and 1/144 with Doyushas.

I don't think I have ever argued that everything has to be in 1/48 either. Take the Macross Plus valks for example. I wanted them bigger yes, I admit that, so that they can transform better, have more details and gimmicks, but never did I say that they must be 1/48. They could have come out as some obscure scale such as 1/57 and I would have bought them.

The only one exception is the 1/60 Monster. Hey, I didn't choose it to come in 1/60, but I'll buy it anyway. I know that it is damn big. I know that I said that I wanted it to come within a smaller size range, but to just have one item that stands out against the rest in the collection would be just sweet.

[Lynx7725]

Hmmm.. *backs away from Kensei*

Truth to be told, I think Yamato made a mistake with the Q-Rau.. First it's a little pricey, but that's still okay.. It's that a lot of us were clamouring/ waiting for the CF-Rau, and we weren't interested in the character Raus (of which Max's appeared for maybe, 5 sec total in DYRL?)

Had they sold a CF-Rau at say, 10% to 20% off, and then packaged a Millia-Rau (with the figures!) at full MRSP, I guarantee you we'll be all over it in terms of value.

Heck, I've always wanted to pick up an enemy mecha to pose with my 1/60s.. just not a specific character's enemy mecha. I think it's just a marketing error on Yamato's part.

But back to the point -- is the Q-rau, in your opinion, a value or a deluxe? For me, when I had a look at it, it didn't strike me as quite having enough features to be called a deluxe, and the price band definitely ruled it out as a value.

Now, as for Kensei...

I think at the end of it, you still want something big enough to play with but small enough to display.. (a 1/35 Tomahawk would be cool but it would take up way too much space). Not quite the same a space constraint, but somewhat limited.. I think you're the type of collector who like size AND mass -- plenty of sizable mecha should keep you relatively happy.

From what Kensei says, I don't think we really draw the line between value and deluxe.. to be honest, I think we are kinda spoilt, we get a lot of goodies for relatively low cost. Nowadays, the lines of deluxe and value is getting closer and closer all the time.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Talking about 'Deluxe' toys.

I just saw the Tamiya Masterwork Collection 1/350 Battleships!

WOW!

[promethuem5]

I would want 1/48 Destroids to display and 1/100 scale Destroids to play with. Getting the Koenig has actually perked me up to 1/100 scale... I intend to get a whole bunch of 1/100 scale model kits to play with. Their size is optimal for functionality. The 1/48 is more for display and quality.... and yes, I didn't buy a 1/60 GBP because I heard there would be a 1/48 ( I even bought a VF-1J Hkkie as my first 1/48 too)

[Lynx7725]

Hold it guys, this ain't really talking about scale here -- that's what EXO's other thread is for.

We are really discussing whether a toy company -- not just toynami -- should go for quality product at higher prices or quantity product at mass-market prices.

A classic example (and going slightly OT) is the comparison between GFF and MSiA.

[EXO]

I think that the 1/48 scale has become a very dirty number among us toy freaks of MW.

But didn't you brand yourself that? Look at your sig... just replace King with Nut...

We understand the fact that 1/48 scale isn't the the drawing point, that why I used the words deluxe treatment meaning size, detail and better quality materials used... versus value versions which are smaller, less detailed with less features.

The scope dog is a perfect example of the deluxe treatment. Why would Yamato risk an investment on an anime a lot more obscure than Macross and give it the deluxe treatment. And would it have been as successful if they just released a smaller version without all the bells and whistles?

(OT - that Chirico figure kinda scares me seeing the quality Yamato put into the Appleseed figure... those movie version Appleseed figures were horrid and at a similar overpriced retail of the Chirico figure)

It seems to me that the bigger verions are less of a risk than toy companies think. MPPrime vs. Robot Masters Prime, which sold more? One is an uber version with die-cast and the other is a value version upgraded to todays standards.

[hevangel2]

Why can't we have both?

The toy companies don't have to discontinue one line for another.

Both MSIA and GFF are good, just like I'll buy whether scale of Macross toy Yamato going to make. The only exception is Max Q-Rau, I'm still waiting the price to come down before I can scope up one for cheap.

[EXO]

Why can't we have both?

The toy companies don't have to discontinue one line for another.

Both MSIA and GFF are good, just like I'll buy whether scale of Macross toy Yamato going to make. The only exception is Max Q-Rau, I'm still waiting the price to come down before I can scope up one for cheap.

We're not really supposeto talk about it from the toy companies stand point, even though I just did in my last post. But if they did both versions, as a customer which version would you choose?

(Also where the heck is my Max figure for my empty Max Qrau? )

[mechatek]

When fans of a series grow up and have disposable income is when companies usually go for the "deluxe treatment". You won't see a MP Armada Prime anytime soon. I think that the deluxe ones are mostly display pieces while the value ones are okay for throwing across the room.

[Lynx7725]

We're not really supposeto talk about it from the toy companies stand point, even though I just did in my last post.  But if they did both versions, as a customer which version would you choose?

(Also where the heck is my Max figure for my empty Max Qrau? )

Actually I thought to write about this but didn't want to derail the thread (so I was merely waiting for opportunity.. )

What kind of customers are you targeting? For Macross, it's almost certainly collectors -- Macross as a series hasn't really been aimed at the young audience. Gundam, however...

The GFF line definitely goes for the collectors, but the MSiA is debatable.. I would actually say it's more targeted towards children, and it's built (and budgeted) that way. As a part-time Gundam fan, I appreciate both. MSiA allows me to build up units relatively cheaply (and nets me some weird designs too), and I have no hesitation customizing MSiA (looks fondly at my MSiA Alex).

GFF gives me quality over playability. I like them as display, but of the 4 I purchased.. I kinda regret 3. (The Titans Mk II is the best and has a fond place in my collection.)

So it's not so clear cut, because even as a collector I had slightly different priorities. In the case of the 1/48 VF-1, I'm really holding out for improvements on the backpack AND a CF; I'll get one or two, but that's it. Meanwhile, my 3 1/60 suffices for me play and display needs.

Truth to be told, the 1/60 are really deluxe items already.. compared to value such as Banprestos. Banprestos ARE really value for money. A 1/60 blows a banpresto out of the water like a 1/48 blows the 1/60 out of the water.

As for the Max.. would you be annoyed if I said you could to get a Millia set, add/ subtract the necessary biological parts, and repaint the figure to get your Max figure for your empty Max Q-Rau?

[pfunk]

For myself, I like detailed toys for display and others for collecting, but I like building models and of course, the more detail the better.

example Macross wise,

1/48's are on display

1/55 bandai's are in boxes

transformers

MPC and binals are on display and the reissues are tucked away in boxes

[glane21]

As a part-time Gundam fan, I appreciate both. MSiA allows me to build up units relatively cheaply (and nets me some weird designs too), and I have no hesitation customizing MSiA (looks fondly at my MSiA Alex).

Hey, post pics of your Alex custom. It's my favorite MSIA and I have a small army of them, one of which I customed up.

[Lynx7725]

Hey, post pics of your Alex custom. It's my favorite MSIA and I have a small army of them, one of which I customed up.

The term "Custom" is probably too strong for what I did. I just did heavy panel-lining on the MSiA and modded the armour so that Alex can wear it properly (chestplate tends to drop off -- fixed that) and use the weapons properly (hacked the forearm armour so that the arm can bring up the rifle properly).

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I think bigger is better. I am not saying hug3e but simply because there is more to play with. I here graham talk absolute love for his GQ gundams, a ton more so than he does for his MSIA. And 1/144 gundams suck in comparison to their master grade counterparts.

The 1/72 HCM isn't as worshippedand revered as the 1/55. Same can be said about the 1/60 to 148 VF-1.

And most of the time, smaller size comes with cheaper quality. The VF-0 would have been tons better had it been in a bigger scale and I know yamato wouldn't use PVC for the majority of that, more than likely ABS.

And look how many people love the yamato scopedog. That was definitely surprising to me. And masterpiece prime vs robotmaster and g1 prime.

[ewilen]

Would the Monster be as wanted if it was 1/144 scale?

I don't know; I don't really want it that badly at any scale. If it was the original monster, that'd be a different story. I think it's a somewhat interesting design, but the underlying concept (variable bomber with battroid mode) doesn't appeal to me, and I don't care about VF-X2.

(BTW, are scale and quality directly related?)

Would the 1/100 VF-0 be vaporware if it would have got the deluxe treatment, meaning less parts swap and more detail?  I don't believe so.  The hype on that would have been a lot more positive if they had made it bigger.

Probably only true if the larger size allowed them to do away with the parts swap and make a better sculpt. Not saying that isn't likely, just that scale, size, and quality aren't the same.

Are more people waiting for the 1/48 GBP since they held out on the 1/60 version?

Is there anyone not getting the 1/48 GBP because they got the the 1/60 already.

I've got a 1/60 GBP. I doubt I'll get a 1/48 although if I had a 1/48 VF-1J instead of a 1/48 VF-1A, I might feel differently.

Here's my take: I've got a bunch of 1/60's because I like the TV versions of everything, they're cheaper, and they take up less space. I don't mind the 1/60 leg transformation. I do wish the 1/60's had better balance, better knees, more poseable arms, that the damn chestplate was easier to lock in place, that the cockpit transformation was easier, and the Gerwalk antenna was integral--all features of the 1/48. I don't see why most of these features couldn't be accomplished in a smaller package.

As for destroids, since they don't need to transform, it should be even easier to do them "right" in 1/60. Just look at the K&M Tomahawk and GBP Valk. Or (although I haven't actually played with one) the Armored Core 2 High-End action figures by Kotobukiya. So while a 1/48 destroid might have better surface detail, and perhaps things like individual missiles that might be hard to do in a 1/60, I think that 1/60 destroids could be very good indeed, as long as they aren't deliberately crippled to keep them from competing with 1/48's.

[Graham]

Personally, I prefer deluxe over value versions as far as Variable Fighters go. I want my VFs to be detailed, look good, i.e. as accurate to the lineart as possible, have some gimmicks, be durable (most important), feature perfect (or near perfect) transformation and be made of good quality materials, i.e no gashapon-disease-prone PVC thank you very much! Only good quality ABS and some die-cast metal where necessary for strength.

For non-transforming Destroids or non-transforming enemy mecha, lower price value versions are fine as long as they are durable, look decent and feature a reasonable level of articulation. I'd be quite happy with a line of 1/144 scale or 1/100 scale GFF style Destroids and enemy mecha in the ¥5,000 price range, rather than Yamato's over-priced (IMO) 1/60 Q-Rau and 1/60 Vaporware Monster.

Size or scale is not that important to me these days. As long as the toy meets the criteria listed above, I'll happily accept it in whatever scale. I'm not hung up on having all my Macross mecha in the same scale anymore.

Graham

[EXO]

I would love to say that scale and quality is not related, but it very well is. For example the SOC line. The quality is top notch and they seem very well detailed enough. But a larger scale the detail would be incredible. You'd probably able to see Koji in the Pilder Hovercraft.

Another example, albeit pathetic one, is the Toynami Alpha. I'm not a big critic of the Alpha, but it seriously suffers from being too small. The landing gears were too small and in lineart the wheels are large compared to the rest of the plane. This would have been able to lift it off the ground more and not have the chest sitting on the ground in fighter mode. The pilot and cockpit would have been a better sculpt (same as the 1/60 valk) and the joints would have been a better design because there would have been room for washers and larger screws. Those joints are seriously just hanging on the the plastic that you see outside. There's no reinfocements.

Though I have no doubt that quality and detail can be acheived at a smaller scale, but at that point you'd be asking for one hell of a sculptor and more resilient material to withstand being so small and thin.

Edited February 14, 2005 by >EXO<

[kensei]

Though I have no doubt that quality and detail can be acheived at a smaller scale, but at that point you'd be asking for one hell of a sculptor and more resilient material to withstand being so small and thin.

Which sacrifices durability. I honestly can't see how you can get detail without increasing size....to a point.

[eugimon]

At what these toys are costing, I'd rather pay a bit more and get something that's better thought out and executed, than something that has to have a bunch of compromises to work.

[pfunk]

bigger is allways better, stronger, more detailed, dont forget the wow factor

[ewilen]

Okay, yes, by increasing size, you make it easier to improve quality.

But my point is that the manufacturers aren't necessarily working at the edge of the quality-size envelope. I think the 1/60's could have better knees and better arm poseability, for example. But they might cost more to manufacture. (However, some cost could possibly be recouped by using more ABS as with the 1/48's.) Also, if the 1/60's were too good, Yamato would be competing with itself since people would opt to get fewer 1/48's.

Or to put it another way, size and quality are related only partly because of design/manufacture issues. The other reason they're related is simply that most consumers who're willing to devote the money & display/storage space to a larger product also demand more quality and are willing to pay for it. If size weren't part of what makes a toy "deluxe", then there would still be "deluxe" versions at the same size. E.g., look at the Forces of Valor vehicles, which has two or three of the same vehicle at the same scale, but differentiated based on the quality of the paint job and accessories.

Edited February 14, 2005 by ewilen

[Godzilla]

Ok, I need to chime in. I like the 1/48s because of the detail and care they (yamato) put into it. Look at the cockpit, the figure, the level of detail on the engine intakes, landing gear. It is near perfect. Then they made the Fast Packs... I think this is no need to discuss the level of detail we ALL know how detailed it is. Of course that is the reason why I have so many. But not as many as Kensei.

I am big on details. I use the 1/48 because it is easier to create the details I wanted like open cockpit, different figure pilot for the destroid (I assume they are different helmets and such) , open missile compartments (especially the 6 missile bay on the Tomahawk), removeable missiles, and good poseablility. Unlike Graham, I am big on getting most of my toys to scale hence why I am getting into space issues... but that is a different matter altogether (I have a huge GI Joe collection to name one). I like to keep the scales the same because I can create cool dioramas like those ppl who makes large battlefields for WW2 and the American Civil War. My hope is to if I ever get the damn time such as recreating the deck top of the Prometheus with Hasegawa figs to launch the VFs off or with the 1/48 scale destroids with missile bays opened on the Daedeleus when it punches thru the Zentradi warship. You guys get the picture.

Dont get me wrong. I liked the 1/60s but the details are not all there like Gunpod, landing gear doors position, removeable legs to "transform", changing cockpit canopy to heat shield, half a pilot?!?! and that is just naming them off the top of my head. I bought like 2 of each of the DRYL except the TRU one when they came out. They are hellva a lot better than Toynami POS MPC. Yes I have all of them except Jack's MPC. I got it for the packaging but I never paid full price after . At first I thought the 1/48 was just too much money but when I got the low vis, hell broke loose. I never even thought I would get that many at this point and I am still clamoring for more like the CF, VF-1S Max (I mean they made a Max Q-rau, why not his VF-1S since it had a longer appearance in the film), 2 seaters including the Virgin Road, Kakazaki VF-1A TV and DYRL, and max's VF-1A TV.

Anyways, yes I would like to have quality toys (hence why I dont buy everything GI Joe when they come out). But they all dont have to be in all in 1/48 in general. Look at the SOC BPX-01 Space Battleship Yamato. I like the detail on that sucker.

Basically to sum it up, Most Macross 1/48 is desirable long as it is good. Other toys, depends on the quality. I say most of of Macross because I do not see a 1/48 SDF-1. I mean you can only do so much.

[Neova]

I am just like Godzilla (in mindset, not wallet size ) and need to have details, quality and in lined SCALE.

My first ever Valkyrie was a 1/48. I skipped the old Bandais, the old Jetfires, Yamato's M+, Bandai's M7 and etc... because I always felt there was something lacking despite the prices. I could have always bought one but never did. It was expensive for the old school Valks new and its true for the 1/48s now.

But at the end of the day, I play with my 1/48s more and enjoy it more than I would ever with any other Valkyrie due to the details. I can live with a smaller size up to a point (no 1/100 sizes) but the details are a must. Sure, the 1/48s have the details and the 1/60s have the most complete line, but hey, thats what customs are for right?

Anything less is too mass market which means lowest sellable quality, detail and size product with the highest profit margin by the manufacturer. It is not a loved or nurtured product (most of the time) and thats not the kind of customer I am.

I'm all about the premium lines, prices be damned. Work harder to attain your goals.

[kensei]

I'm all about the premium lines, prices be damned. Work harder to attain your goals.

Well said! Of course it is not easy fishing up $150 USD shipped. I know that some people have it harder than others, but you have got to make sacrifices or work harder or both.