Japanese stealth fighter

[Prowlus]

Just stumbled upon an old article that describes Japan's own proposal for a F-16J replacement

Too bad it didn't fly . It was cancelled due to budget restraints and the failings of the F-2 fighter

[hellohikaru]

Looks like an early 80s ATF design. It probably would have been too expensive to build. Doesn't look too stealthy to me.

[Major Johnathan]

What's been happening with the F-2? How many are actually in service after all this time? (I remember them in the news in the early, early '90's) I remember originally it was supposed to be a big U.S./Japan venture, but I've heard virtually no news of U.S. participation...

Besides that, does Japan have any idea what it wants to eventually replace the F-15? If China, N. Korea and Russia were my neighbors, I'd want to stay ahead of the curve. The Flanker family is not to be shrugged off.

Maybe they'll buy into the F-35? Not that the F-35 comes close to air superiority, but it's all the rage. Maybe they'd consider the F-22?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

F-35 wouldn't do much for japan. Doubt the Us would sell the F-22. Israel would be more likely.

F-2 poduction is cut, not every order will be fulfilled, the JASDF is dissapointed with it and that the F-15J can do the exact same mission as the F-2. So essentially to them the F-2 is a waste of money. It WAS supposed to be some sort of japanese super falcon but politicians here prevented the software transfers which created delays, and japan had to make some software of their own. Lockheed DOES help with the plan but if anything it is only a shell of what it was originally supposed to be.

Saw the FX in old jane's books. Looked interesting.

[Major Johnathan]

Israel has been selling some sensitive technology to China that has upset the U.S., so I doubt they'll get the F-22. Probabbly just a U.S. only release, but it would do wonders for the U.S. aircraft industry to let the F-22 be sold to close allies.

I have my doubts about how useful anybody will find the F-35, but it certainly has enough customers.

Japan lags behind in aircraft development, and they have no excuse, they have the industry, the history and the motivation, but still they rely on the U.S. for it's equipment.

Already, China is building it's own licensed Flankers, essentially what Japan does with the F-15. You'd think that would alarm Japan a bit more, the trends aren't favoring Japan, but they do little to face up to it.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Well with the FSX, I believe most of it was out of there hands. They did want to do a lot with it, but most of their proposed demands were shortcutted by politicians who did not want the japanese to have the transferred software technology. Their main defense is for their sea ways so I presume they just need to mod their F-15J's with ASM's. I brought up the Israeli sale simply because the US would sell more to Israel than to japan. The IDF has had more US planes than japan has.

[Nied]

The Japanese are reportedly very interested in getting their hands on an F/A-22J for the JASDF as a down-the-road F-15J replacement, I would be surprised if the IAF isn't interested as well. Reglardless of the sensitivity of the technology involved, the way things are going if we don't spread the Raptor around no one, not even the USAF, is going to have that technology.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The Japanese are reportedly very interested in getting their hands on an F/A-22J for the JASDF as a down-the-road F-15J replacement, I would be surprised if the IAF isn't interested as well. Reglardless of the sensitivity of the technology involved, the way things are going if we don't spread the Raptor around no one, not even the USAF, is going to have that technology.

I would bet Israel and Japan would both get the F/A-22I/J somewhere down the road. After all, once their current F-15s' run out of airframe life, they can't just replace it with the F-35s. And I don't see either country buying Su-35/37/45 etc or the Eurojets.

Maybe in the 2015-20 timeframe the US would let them have the Raptor. But I don't think that kind of time lag would help the USA with the current funding problems.

[Nied]

I understand the security concerns in not letting sensitive technology get into the wrong hands but if we wait until the next decade to start selling Raptors it won't be a concern anymore, no one on the planet will have the technology in the Raptor because the Raptor won't exist anymore. The options right now are to sell the Raptor right now to our closest most trusted allies, or wait and let them buy well marketed Typhoons or Raphales in ten years because the Raptor isn't there to buy. Either scenario has us facing a world where advanced fighters abound, but one has us facing it with only one wing of Raptors (if we're lucky) and there is no capability to build more becasue the production line has long since been torn down. The other still gives us one wing but the production line has been churing out raptors for our allies, which also gives us the ability to build more if we need to (which we most assuredly will).

Edited February 12, 2005 by Nied

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Imagining Hiko Kyodotai camo up F-22's and the Israelis have F-15I camo on the F-22 seems very very cool. I think it would be awesome if F-22s were sold to them.

[Coota0]

The Isralies getting F-22s will have nothing to do with what they've sold the Chinese and everything with the fact that if we sell them (F-22s) to a Jewish State, wich many within the world belive we already over suppport (I disagree, but that's a differnet thread) while we're attempting to win the favor of the Arab world, and attempting to work out a peace between the Arabs and the Isralies. It's all polotics.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

If the IDF get's raptors, then I sure as hell think the Saudi's will want some too. Since the only thing they have to counter it is the F-15S, and that plane is redundant in comparison.

[Major Johnathan]

For some reason, I'd rather not see the Saudi's with F-22's.

But as I say, it's just embarrasing for Japan that they have no real aircraft industry of their own. They have the money, the technology, the history the industry and the need. Maybe the realities of N.Korea shooting missles over their heads, announcing they have nukes and that little thing about China on a path of dwarfing Japan militarily and economically might snap them out of their complacency.

I like Japan, it's my 2nd favorite country and I worry for them. Pacifist's don't do well in the real world.

[ewilen]

As usual, people here are focused on expensive air superiority fighters when the air forces of the developed world have all decided that economical surface attack solutions are what they need.

Japan is already eyeing participation in the F-35 program. I predict they join up.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=35326

Meanwhile, for all those who still view India's Sukhois as a reason to worry, please note expanding US-India defense cooperation, perhaps including sale of the F-16 to India.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Feb10.html

[Nied]

I imagine that Japan has more to legitimately fear from Chinese Su-27s... and J-10s... and FC-1s. While the PLAAF may be a distant threat to our regional interests it is a very real potential threat to Japan itself. And while they are eyeing the F-35, last I heard it was thier second choice behind the F-22.

[hellohikaru]

Japan needs a need air defence fighter and the F-35 which is more of a ground attack type wouldn't bode well with its pacifist stance. They can't even buy AV-8J for the maritime role.

I think they need the best fighter they can buy, hopefully they go europe these time and get the EF2000 if they can't get F/A-22J

[Mislovrit]

Meanwhile, for all those who still view India's Sukhois as a reason to worry, please note expanding US-India defense cooperation, perhaps including sale of the F-16 to India.

Iirc India is only looking at F-16s to force Dassault to sell them either the Mirage 2000s or the Rafales at a much lower price.

[hellohikaru]

I second that. India has never operated much American military hardware and they ain't about to start either. Their present equipment wouldn't be compatible with the F-16. India also mention buying Gripen to prevent Pakistan from doing so.

[Major Johnathan]

I must be missing something, but I've never understood why India and the U.S. are so unfreindly? I mean we were never close to war, it was BRITAIN that colonized them not America, yet they seem to love Britain.

Where I grew up, there were probably more Indian immigrants than any other group, and they seemed to be enjoying being here, virtually no 'tensions' or any of that crap. Even the older folks spoke great English and on a people to people basis, my experience has been that Americans and Indians get along just fine. But our Govts' sure as hell don't. Of course India is the biggest democracy on Earth, they are pretty tolerant relgiously, obviously a bit freindlier to Hinduism.

Plus it seems their bad guys and our bad guys are awful similar, you'd think we'd be VERY close allies. Whatever the bad blood is, it's high time we buried the hatchet.

U.S. India Japan= mighty alliance. (not to mention Australia, Singapore, S.Korea and Phillipines)

I know America has been close to Pakistan at times, and India close to Russia at times, it seems we're all confused, it should be vica versa.

[Skull Leader]

What's been happening with the F-2? How many are actually in service after all this time? (I remember them in the news in the early, early '90's)  I remember originally it was supposed to be a big U.S./Japan venture, but I've heard virtually no news of U.S. participation...

The main concern with the F-2 is price. Make no mistake, it's a badass little fighter (although larger than the standard F-16 in almost every way), but for a similar price, the JASDF can buy 2 or maybe 3 F-15Js that can do the job pretty much as well.

Really the project had shot itself in the foot before it even got off the ground. The "Defensive" nature of the Japanese self-defense force prevented the F-2 from being able to carry the ordinance it needs to maximize it's potential. Besides their ASM and AAM missiles, they're pretty much restricted to dumb ordinance. They use the same pylons as a standard F-16, so they *could* carry smart ordinance, but they lack the software. To top things off, supposedly (and I can never seem to confirm or deny this) the F-2 cannot refuel in mid-air (again, percieved as an offensive posture, hence it was deleted), but they all seem to have the IRP doors on the spine.

I guess you could say the F-2 was in the wrong place at the wrong time. An F-2A or B with a fully realized offensive potential would be a SERIOUS air to ground threat (or even air to air)... Those extra pylons and extra fuel (the wings are much larger and carry much more fuel) provide a wealth of opportunities. Still, the only time it's speed/maneuverability advantages really shine is when the plane is in a "clean" (unloaded) configuration.

I believe their final count was at just under 100 planes (approximately 1/3 are As, I believe the rest are Bs) with the 6th squadron at Tsuiki being the last to get theirs in 2004. 3rd Squadron at Misawa received theirs first back in 2000 while 21st Squadron at Matsushima picked theirs up in 2003. (disclaimer: thats IF I remember correctly and if I still understand how to read the tailcodes on JASDF fighters). I don't believe there are any plans to provide F-2s for any more squadrons. Although being that they've paid so much for them, you can bet they'll make as much use of them as they can. As F-1s and F-4Js are phased out, I believe they plan to go with more F-15s

If they wind up selling of whatever "still usable" F-4Js they have, some 3rd world country would do well to snap them up... they've been modernized as much as they can I think and are very much still airframes to be respected. Having said that, I'm sure each one of those F-4s have gone WELL past their reccomended flight hours.

Edited February 13, 2005 by Skull Leader

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

hmmmmm not to go OT, but for the record, the Philippines has a pathetic air force and has a military that wars within itself. Not to talk down my country, but sadly it's been that way even during the Marcos presidency, even the military against him was warring within it's own ranks!! That and last I checked we only has 5 3rd hand F-5's from thailand bought on discount.

I guess my country is a powerful ally in the sense of location and maybe ground troops, but really it would be better if the US still had bases there.

India is funny, buying or threatening to buy american planes to block pakistan and others. lol. Why would they need a falcon though when they've got the MKI?

[Noyhauser]

The Isralies getting F-22s will have nothing to do with what they've sold the Chinese and everything with the fact that if we sell them (F-22s) to a Jewish State, wich many within the world belive we already over suppport (I disagree, but that's a differnet thread) while we're attempting to win the favor of the Arab world, and attempting to work out a peace between the Arabs and the Isralies. It's all polotics.

I think Israel's recent activities with the Chinese, in all honesty, has nixed its chances of getting a F-22. And the US would likely say no anyways because it does not need the fighter because nobody has anything remotely comparable to it. I think the Japanese, who does produce some of the F-22 components is probably the only country that may have a chance to buy the fighter, but given the Avionics rebuild that is required for a second flight of F-22s, I doubt that will happen either.

but I've never understood why India and the U.S. are so unfreindly? I mean we were never close to war, it was BRITAIN that colonized them not America, yet they seem to love Britain.

Several reasons. One of the largest was the US suspension of aid during the 1972 war with pakistan, and its hostile tone in that conflict. The US sent the Enterprise into the bay of bengal to warn the Indians not to go further. This was taken at great offence by the indians and has not been forgotten since. It was one of the main reasons that lead the Gandhi government to the final development of the nuclear option in 1974.

Moreover the US has always had better ties with Pakistan, India's arch rival than India. This goes back right to decolonization in 1948. It served as a base for U2 flights and for arms to afghanistan. We gave them the F-16s that are their prime delivery system for their nuclear weapons. India doesn't really have much to trust us about.

Moreover Colonial powers have always had better relationships with their colonies. They have close links, such as in education common perceptions and expatriat population. These are in some way quite positive. Colonialism is part of their history but it has many different effects that go far beyond simple animosity.

[ewilen]

I didn't mean to imply that Japan was worried about India's Flankers. The comment was really an update of another thread, where people were suggesting that India was a potential rival whose Flankers made it necessary for the US to buy Raptors.

About India-US cooperation looking forward, regardless of what happens with the F-16's, the article I linked made it sound like India would be buying a bunch of other equipement. It's interesting to hear that the F-16 portion may just be a bargaining ploy--I guess we'll see.

Since the F/A-22 is supposedly going to have surface attack capabilities, Japan's constitution would have the same problem with it as with the F-35, no? Anyway, whatever happened with the Harrier, if the issue is raised, I'm sure the argument would be made (justifiably) that for an island nation, a land-based fighter-bomber is an excellent, in fact necessary defensive weapon. So they should be able to buy the F-35A without any problem.

[Major Johnathan]

Japan really needs to update it's constitution. I read how Japan wants more respect in the world, especially in the UN. They'll never get it if all they contribute is money. Japan's like Rick in Casablanca, Japan sticks it's neck out for no one. It boils down to military participation. Will Japan offer troops/Peace keepers for Sudan? Or Afghanistan? Or Palestine? or 20 other hot spots. Will they confront obvious bad actors like N. Korea or Iran? Or will they continue to write checks to get out of a pinch? Sooner or later money won't solve it, or Japan could even run low on money, then what would they do?

If Japan were attacked, there is no doubt America would be at their side from day one. Maybe that's the problem. Japan hasn't exactly bent over backwards to help America out in the war we're in. The troops they put in Iraq are as isolated as can be and hell bent on not firing a shot in anger or defense. That's pretty useless.

America should have the same policy. "Japan, we're with you! And if N. Korea or China ever attack, we'll observe! So don't worry."

Edited February 13, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Major Johnathan]

I know, I'm starting to rant... but; Japan's holiest of causes', nuclear proliferation. Well, N. Korea has 'em. Iran will very soon. Once they have them, S. Korea will want 'em. Saudi Arabia and Egypt will want them. If they get them, Libya and Syria will want them. If Libya and Syria get them...etc. etc. etc.

My point being, what the hell is Japan proposing to do to stop this spiral of proliferation? Endless talks and negotiations, aid package after aid package. Meanwhile, any two bit dictator just has to threaten to be interested in nukes, and countries like Japan fall for it and wind up sending aid(extortion payments) to keep a dictator in power.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea to confront the rogues BEFORE they get nukes. Then hopefully the other rogues will think twice.

Edited February 13, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[hellohikaru]

Japan has a through deck "helicopter cruiser" but couldn't purchase AV-8J for it supposedly because of opposition from both within and outside Japan. Nothing new really. And now that the line has been close they is little chance of buying it. Maybe the opt for the F-35B if that ever happens.

The F-22's attack capability is no more than a JDAM launcher. And the JDAM is pretty much a guided dump bomb. The JASDF version may not have the same air to ground weapons capability too. Japan needs the best fighter it can buy and they certainly can afford the Raptor. Another thing is public image. The conservative and the anti-military among the Japanese public loathes at the military and the F-35 is known for its role as an attack aircraft thanks to all the media hype.

[Zentrandude]

hmmmmm not to go OT, but for the record, the Philippines has a pathetic air force and has a military that wars within itself. Not to talk down my country, but sadly it's been that way even during the Marcos presidency, even the military against him was warring within it's own ranks!! That and last I checked we only has 5 3rd hand F-5's from thailand bought on discount.

I guess my country is a powerful ally in the sense of location and maybe ground troops, but really it would be better if the US still had bases there.

India is funny, buying or threatening to buy american planes to block pakistan and others. lol. Why would they need a falcon though when they've got the MKI?

didn't relized we had an airforce. I wouldn't say the military is having a war within itself If you meet those communist gorrillas they are some bad dudes. My cousin's friend got killed by one of them while dive fishing at night.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Oh it's not just them man. If you google up some stuff, you'll find more. It wasn't just the NPA, sometimes there military just does not agree and leads into factions. They even had to "rent" out or call a US plane in to monitor a terrorist before he was eventually killed. They could not do this alone.

[Mislovrit]

]Will Japan offer troops/Peace keepers for Sudan? Or Afghanistan? Or Palestine? or 20 other hot spots.

Please do some research before badmouthing a contributing ally (government and military). By all means rail on the half of the civilian population which rather to do nothing as it would conflict with their pacifistic belief.

Japan's contributions

Japan Extends Iraq Mission Up to a Year

Japan's main ASDF unit arrives in Kuwait on Iraq mission

On the subject of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi

Following the overthrow of Saddam Hussein by US forces in 2003, Qaddafi announced that his nation had an active weapons of mass destruction program, but was willing to allow international inspectors into his country to observe and dismantle them. The threat posed by WMD programs violating non-proliferation treaty responsibilities had been cited by US President George W. Bush as one of his leading reasons for invading Iraq, and it is believed that after Saddam's downfall Qaddafi feared for the future of his own regime if he continued to keep and conceal the weapons. Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi was quoted as saying that Qaddafi had privately phoned him, admitting as much.

International inspectors turned up several thousand tonnes of chemical weaponry in Libya, as well as an active nuclear weapons program. The process of destroying the weapons continues, and Libya has improved its cooperation with international monitoring regimes.

In March 2004, British prime minister Tony Blair became one of the first western leaders in decades to visit Libya and publicly meet Qaddafi. Blair praised Qaddafi's recent acts, and stated that he hoped Libya could now be a strong ally in the international war on terrorism.

Edited February 14, 2005 by Mislovrit

[ewilen]

The F-22's attack capability is no more than a JDAM launcher. And the JDAM is pretty much a guided dump bomb.  The JASDF version may not have the same air to ground weapons capability too.

Good point. Although future development, if it ever happens, is supposed to produce a more robust air-ground ability. And I forget if someone said it here or on another forum--if an F-22J needs modification for political or other reasons, that will drive the cost up further.

Japan needs the best fighter it can buy and they certainly can afford the Raptor. Another thing is public image. The conservative and the anti-military among the Japanese public loathes at the military and the F-35 is known for its role as an attack aircraft thanks to all the media hype.

I wasn't aware of the latter point. But really--why does Japan need the Raptor? To shoot down bombers? And yes, Japan can buy Raptors if the US allows it--but at best they'll only get 1-2 Raptors for every 3 Strike Eagles or 3-4 F-35's.

Note that the replacement for the F-2 program is supposed to be a "multi-role fighter" which can act as an interceptor and fighter-bomber. Media hype notwithstanding, it sounds like it's already been decided that a robust surface attack ability is need, as evidenced by the planes listed as likely candidates (other than the Raptor).

http://www.dapss.com/MPI/samples/Vol.14/is...2104P-japan.htm

I don't know what kind of public debate is going on in Japan but I would argue that air superiority/supremacy as embodied in the Raptor is an offensive capability, as it is the first step to a successful assault on enemy territority.

[Major Johnathan]

Please do some research before badmouthing a contributing ally (government and military). By all means rail on the half of the civilian population which rather to do nothing as it would conflict with their pacifistic belief.

Japan's contributions

Japan Extends Iraq Mission Up to a Year

Japan's main ASDF unit arrives in Kuwait on Iraq mission

I don't feel I'm badmouthing, just criticising. I know about all of Japan's commitments in the war on terror. It equals money and support equipment. The 1000 or so Japanese troops in Iraq have been painstakingly removed from any major risk of attack. America, Britain, Poland, Italy, Spain(formerly), Ukraine and of course Iraqi's themselves have continually paid in lives, not just money.

Japan, as in the first Gulf war, only contributes money (admittedly a lot of it) and distant support like air refuelers and sea refuelers. But conciously never risking Japanese lives.

I recognise that Japan sending ground troops to Iraq was a big step for them, but to my knowledge, those troops are not doing the tough and dangerous work of policing Iraqi towns or cities for fear of attack. And there's no doubt the terrorists would love to hit those troops, the point is, it's dangerous business and in a war zone, you'll lose some people. The fact is, I haven't heard of a single shot fired by those troops or against them, meaning they are so far from any serious population, one wonders what use those 1000 troops really are.

I know this is all really prickly in Japan because of it's history in WWII, but if Germany can send armed peace keepers all over the world, and has for years now, certainly Japan can too. Germans aren't in Iraq, but they did put ground troops, helicopters and fighter/bombers in Afghanistan, I believe even lost a few men, plus they have troops in Kosovo.

Sadly, I think the percentage of pacifists in Japan is well over half.

[yellowlightman]

I recognise that Japan sending ground troops to Iraq was a big step for them, but to my knowledge, those troops are not doing the tough and dangerous work of policing Iraqi towns or cities for fear of attack. And there's no doubt the terrorists would love to hit those troops, the point is, it's dangerous business and in a war zone, you'll lose some people. The fact is, I haven't heard of a single shot fired by those troops or against them, meaning they are so far from any serious population, one wonders what use those 1000 troops really are.

I know this is all really prickly in Japan because of it's history in WWII, but if Germany can send armed peace keepers all over the world, and has for years now, certainly Japan can too. Germans aren't in Iraq, but they did put ground troops, helicopters and fighter/bombers in Afghanistan, I believe even lost a few men, plus they have troops in Kosovo.

Sadly, I think the percentage of pacifists in Japan is well over half.

That's largely because if Japanese soldiers died in Iraq, the Japanese politicians there would be in deep poo and like have thier political career brought to a startling halt, it is less a statement about pacificist politicians and more about public opinion destroying political careers.

Keep in mind where the Japanese are coming from. At the end of World War II, the Emporer went on Japanese radio and announced to the Japanese people that they were surrendering. Up until this time, no regular Japanese civilian had heard the Emporers voice because he was an Emporer, godlike in stature and certainly above the breadth of "normal" people. By showing such signs of humanity and admiting defeat to the Americans, many felt that invalidated the deatsh of those Japanese soldiers who had given their lives for their country and Emperor.

The Japanese people suffered some of the worst war time attrocities of the 20th century, the two atomic bombs are obvious but the extensive firebombings of Japanese cities leveled much of the country's urban centers.

Add on to this Article 9 (IIRC) of the Japanese Constitution which prohibits Japan from employing a military for use beyond self-defense and specifically prohibits any sort of military belligerency. All told, Japanese opinion against wartime operations goes beyond just being "a bunch of pacificists" and is more akin to the result of cultural trauma.

As for non-pacifists in Japan, Japan has a vocal minority of right-wing nationalists that would be more than happy to ammend the constitution to allow a more traditional military, mainly to protect themselves from China and N. Korea. But I'm guessing you weren't quite hoping for hardcore nationalists, or maybe you were.

I'd throw in some comments about my visiting Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine (the biggest, most famous shrine for the war dead in Japan) on August 15th of last year, but this post is already ridiculously large and bordering on the "No Politics" rule.

[Mislovrit]

Post bordering on the "No Politics" rule

Edited February 14, 2005 by Mislovrit

[Firefox]

I doubted China would ever wanted attack Japan. If they want they could do so during their dynasties era and there would be no Japan in World War II. China beef up their military might in fear of the raise of Japan military conservatism. Once bitten twice shy, if you were attacked and have your 30,000 citizens massacred in one day, you'll always want to beef yourself up. Besides, many Chinese are getting richer. Rich men won't want war, they want money. No one wants their Ferrari get blown into pieces by bombs and bullets.

The only thing Japan should fear is N.Korea. Poverty leads to instability and volatility. They might do whatever to get the money they want.

I don't know about India and American relationship. I only know many jobs are moving to India.

Edited February 15, 2005 by Firefox

[yellowlightman]

I doubted China would ever wanted attack Japan. If they want they could do so during their dynasties era and there would be no Japan in World War II.

In the late 1200's there were two Mongol-lead Chinese invasions of Japan. Both invasions failed, largely do two large storms which forced the attackers to retreat, depending on who you talk to the invasion fleets were either destroyed (the Japanese version) or the fleets simply decided to return home rather than tough out the storm (the Chinese/Mongolian version).