Quick topic to discuss...

[kensei]

Hey guys,

Just pondering over who came up first with the concept of the light sabre? Was it Star Wars or Gundam?

[Mechamaniac]

Hmm, that's a tough call.

I mean, if you go strictly by date, then Star Wars came out in '77, therefore, Lucas wins since Gundam came out in '79.

However, since Lucas has never really written an original story line in his life, and borrows heavily, and unabashedly from everyone else, who's to say where he might have gotten the idea.

[Lynx7725]

Why Kensei, why?

BTW, it's "saber", not "sabre". Two different types of weapon.

Energy weapon in sword form is really nothing new in anime; plenty of shows have light-saber type weapons in them. I'm not sure when energy swords first worked its way into Hoillywood movies though, anyone can enlighten?

[kensei]

Look how close the "r" is to the "e" Lynx7725!

My mistake.

But yeah, I agree that Lucas borrows heavily from other shows, that's why I was rather reluctant to believe that Star Wars was the first one to invent the light saber.

But they were two of the earliest shows to feature light sabers, therefore I think one or the other must have conceptialised it first.

Edited February 11, 2005 by kensei

[Lynx7725]

Look how close the "r" is to the "e" Lynx7725!

My mistake.

But yeah, I agree that Lucas borrows heavily from other shows, that's why I was rather reluctant to believe that Star Wars was the first one to invent the light saber.

But they were two of the earliest shows to feature light sabers, therefore I think one or the other must have conceptialised it first.

Actually I *would* like to see a beam sabre. At least one more use -- I can either slice you, run you through, or slap you silly with it. A beam saber's can only do 2 of the 3.

Hard to say about the origin of the lightsaber. It's probably a case of borrowing from each other... Lucas probably saw some poster or show with a energy weapon and refined it to the lightsaber, while Tomino probably saw Star Wars and refined his weapon into the beam saber.

[JB0]

Look how close the "r" is to the "e" Lynx7725! 

My mistake.

But yeah, I agree that Lucas borrows heavily from other shows, that's why I was rather reluctant to believe that Star Wars was the first one to invent the light saber.

But they were two of the earliest shows to feature light sabers, therefore I think one or the other must have conceptialised it first.

Actually I *would* like to see a beam sabre. At least one more use -- I can either slice you, run you through, or slap you silly with it. A beam saber's can only do 2 of the 3.

Hard to say about the origin of the lightsaber. It's probably a case of borrowing from each other... Lucas probably saw some poster or show with a energy weapon and refined it to the lightsaber, while Tomino probably saw Star Wars and refined his weapon into the beam saber.

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

[nhyone]

I'm not sure when energy swords first worked its way into Hoillywood movies though, anyone can enlighten?

Not film historian here, but Star Wars could very well be the first. Didn't the light sabers have to be colored for every individual frame? That sounds very cost prohibitive to me (for 70s technology).

[Lynx7725]

If I recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

Hah.

"Only Gundams are this accurate."

Can you imagine Ewoks beating up on Gundams?

[JELEINEN]

BTW, it's "saber", not "sabre". Two different types of weapon.

The difference between spelling it "re" and "er" is if you're Brittish or American. Same weapon.

And, Lucas didn't originate the idea. He borrowed it from old pulp SF from the twenties and thirties.

[Black Valkyrie]

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

That was true but due to copy rights Tomino had to change the Gundam`s color. There`s another SW item in the first Gundam movie when the first time Amuro uses THE TRACKING or THE TARGETING SYSTEM in the RX-78-2 !

[JB0]

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

That was true but due to copy rights Tomino had to change the Gundam`s color. There`s another SW item in the first Gundam movie when the first time Amuro uses THE TRACKING or THE TARGETING SYSTEM in the RX-78-2 !

The way I heard it, they colorized the Gundam because the people funding the show wanted bright primary colors, because a solid white toy would look boring on the shelf.

[Lynx7725]

BTW, it's "saber", not "sabre". Two different types of weapon.

The difference between spelling it "re" and "er" is if you're Brittish or American. Same weapon.

Hmm you may be correct. My impression of a sabre is more of a scimitar-type weapon, with a broad blade, whereas my impression of a saber is more of a rapier-type weapon.

It's probably a misconception caused by Tomino's usage of the term beam saber.. good to clear that up.

Okay, so I prefer to see a beam scimitar so that I can smack some poor MS around with the blade.

[Duke Togo]

Why oh why do people post these sorts of threads, when the answer is easily checkable, if not well known?

Hey, what's next, "hey d00ds, I think Ghost In The Shell rips off The Matrix!"

[JB0]

Why oh why do people post these sorts of threads, when the answer is easily checkable, if not well known?

Hey, what's next, "hey d00ds, I think Ghost In The Shell rips off The Matrix!"

You mean it doesn't?

</sarcasm>

[eugimon]

Why oh why do people post these sorts of threads, when the answer is easily checkable, if not well known?

Hey, what's next, "hey d00ds, I think Ghost In The Shell rips off The Matrix!"

Please, it's well known that the buddah ripped off the matrix long before Ghost in the shell did!!!

[yellowlightman]

Most definately Gundam got the idea from Star Wars. Tomino has even said as much mentioning the popularity of Star Wars at the time.

(not to mention: Star Wars 1976, Gundam 1979...)

[Hoptimus]

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

That was true but due to copy rights Tomino had to change the Gundam`s color. There`s another SW item in the first Gundam movie when the first time Amuro uses THE TRACKING or THE TARGETING SYSTEM in the RX-78-2 !

The way I heard it, they colorized the Gundam because the people funding the show wanted bright primary colors, because a solid white toy would look boring on the shelf.

Yup.

I you read the Gundam novels the Gundam is white until Amuro gets the second version G3 which is Grey.

Tomino wanted it white but Bandai wanted more bright colors to sell more toys.

[JB0]

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

That was true but due to copy rights Tomino had to change the Gundam`s color. There`s another SW item in the first Gundam movie when the first time Amuro uses THE TRACKING or THE TARGETING SYSTEM in the RX-78-2 !

The way I heard it, they colorized the Gundam because the people funding the show wanted bright primary colors, because a solid white toy would look boring on the shelf.

Yup.

I you read the Gundam novels the Gundam is white until Amuro gets the second version G3 which is Grey.

Tomino wanted it white but Bandai wanted more bright colors to sell more toys.

Bandai made a good call, honestly.

It would've been an UGLY mech in pure white.

[Mr March]

Huh? The Valkyries are nearly all white in color and they look great, even in early 80's animation. The Gundam Ez8 from Mbolie Suit Gundam The 08th MS Team is one of my favorite UC era Gundam designs, but the thing is basically all white.

I think creatively the decision to use those silly primary colors for the RX-78-2 was terrible. But the decision was prompted by toy/model sales (as seems the curse for most Gundam shows) so I can understand the choice even if I disagree.

[JB0]

Huh? The Valkyries are nearly all white in color and they look great, even in early 80's animation.

The valks have accents. And are a more interesting design to start with.

The Gundam Ez8 from Mbolie Suit Gundam The 08th MS Team is one of my favorite UC era Gundam designs, but the thing is basically all white.

The pic I'm seeing has a fair bit of blue and black/gray.

...

And I think it needs some extra color.

[Mr March]

That's certainly your choice if you prefer the Valkyrie design, but hardly a case for whether a Mecha looks good or bad colored white. Arguing over accents which account for less than a significant portion of a Valkyrie's color palette is splitting hairs far too thin to be relevant IMO.

I doubt that the original Gundam was meant to be as white as a sheet of 8.5 x 11. The Stormtroopers of Star Wars were Tomino's inspiration for the Gundam and they are far from totally white.

I think the original RX-78-2 Gundam would have looked great as a white design, much the same as the Gundam Ez8 and the VF-1 Valkyrie. I think in general the Gundams look best with a relatively subdued color pallette than the traditional designs, like the RX-78NT-1 Gundam Alex or the Stamen. IMO, the Ez8 is a good Gundam design that is perfectly fine in white, and certainly not ugly. Your mileage may vary.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Mr March

[JB0]

That's certainly your choice if you prefer the Valkyrie design, but hardly a case for whether a Mecha looks good or bad colored white. Arguing over accents which account for less than a significant portion of a Valkyrie's color palette is splitting hairs far too thin to be relevant IMO.

I doubt that the original Gundam was meant to be as white as a sheet of 8.5 x 11. The Stormtroopers of Star Wars were Tomino's inspiration for the Gundam and they are far from totally white.

I think the original RX-78-2 Gundam would have looked great as a white design, much the same as the Gundam Ez8 and the VF-1 Valkyrie. I think in general the Gundams look best with a relatively subdued color pallette than the traditional designs, like the RX-78NT-1 Gundam Alex or the Stamen. IMO, the Ez8 is a good Gundam design that is perfectly fine in white, and certainly not ugly. Your mileage may vary.

Fair enough...I had a flat sheet of paper image. It WAS probably stupid.

I still maintain the accents on valks make it hard to class them as "white mechs". The big red stripe on Hikaru's 1J chest isn't as pronounced as making the whole dang chest plate solid color, but it breaks the white up very effectively. The doubled lines of the Skull 1 are even more effective.

...

And my fav is Millia's 1J, which uses white for the accents.

*shrugs*

[Mr March]

I typically enjoy mecha that feature more earth-like tones or metallic colors. Most of the mecha in Macross Plus, particularly the YF-19 and the VF-11 Thunderbolt, utilize color schemes that I prefer the most for a mecha. However, as a reality of many anime, particularly older animes from the 70's and 80's, bright primary colors were often necessary to distinguish one object/character/vehicle from another.

I find subdued colors help my suspension of disbelief when accepting big, giant robots. As much as I love color and find it aesthetically pleasing, mecha with bright primary colors just seems kinda silly to me and hurts the realism.

[zeo-mare]

hi here is what the original gundam was suppossed to look like from what i understand, this is a limited edition Chogokin based on it. it was far more white, but bandai thought they could sell more toys if they changed the color of the original design so we got the more red, white, blue with a little bit of yellow that we are now so familiar with. also Tomino had stated that Star Wars inspired him to use the light saber type weapon which he simply called the Beam Saber, i had a book on it but i cannot seem to find it right now they talk about the original series and how it was created.

chris

[zeo-mare]

back of box

[JB0]

I typically enjoy mecha that feature more earth-like tones or metallic colors. Most of the mecha in Macross Plus, particularly the YF-19 and the VF-11 Thunderbolt, utilize color schemes that I prefer the most for a mecha. However, as a reality of many anime, particularly older animes from the 70's and 80's, bright primary colors were often necessary to distinguish one object/character/vehicle from another.

I find subdued colors help my suspension of disbelief when accepting big, giant robots. As much as I love color and find it aesthetically pleasing, mecha with bright primary colors just seems kinda silly to me and hurts the realism.

I find a balance needs to be struck. Not too flashy, not too dull.

*looks at pics of "original style Gundam"*

...

Definitely too flat.

[Mr March]

Hmmm, I must admit that color scheme is not really to my liking. It almost looks like the paint one would use for a factory only prototype piecemeal. I can understand why decisions were made to jazz up to colors. I was thinking the RX-78-2 Gundam would look good as primarily white with dark accents and dark colored sub-surface features, much like the Ez8.

[JB0]

Hmmm, I must admit that color scheme is not really to my liking. It almost looks like the paint one would use for a factory only prototype piecemeal.

Wasn't the Gundam SUPPOSED to be a one-off prototype?

[Mr March]

It was indeed. Maybe it suits the mecha more than one would guess Still don't like it though

[Keith]

Tomino was indeed inspired by Lucas, though I prefer Tomino's take better, especially in regards to Newtypes over The Force. But then Lucas was heavily inspired by Kurasawa (Hidden Fortress) and Matsumoto (Yamato). Fighter based space battles (Cosmo Tigers), R2-D2 (Analyzer), and many other aspects of Star Wars ring of Yamato. Of course, Matsumoto didn't seem to mind at all (Tetsuro even reads through an ancient Star Wars zine with delight in an episode of GE:999).

[Californium]

White Devil.

[Sundown]

Fighter based space battles (Cosmo Tigers), R2-D2 (Analyzer), and many other aspects of Star Wars ring of Yamato. Of course, Matsumoto didn't seem to mind at all (Tetsuro even reads through an ancient Star Wars zine with delight in an episode of GE:999).

Is this documented that Yamato influenced Lucas, or is it just conjecture? Space fighter battles is hardly a unique concept. Not to mention that Lucas likely drew more heavily from WWII dogfights (which is documented) than the Yamato anime series. If Lucas wanted a "War" in the "Stars", and he was drawn to WWII imagery, as evident in other aspects of the film, it's not a far reach to assume that Lucas logically arrived at space dog fighter battles independently of an anime series that shares vague similarities.

-Al

[Gui]

Look how close the "r" is to the "e" Lynx7725! 

My mistake.

But yeah, I agree that Lucas borrows heavily from other shows, that's why I was rather reluctant to believe that Star Wars was the first one to invent the light saber.

But they were two of the earliest shows to feature light sabers, therefore I think one or the other must have conceptialised it first.

Actually I *would* like to see a beam sabre. At least one more use -- I can either slice you, run you through, or slap you silly with it. A beam saber's can only do 2 of the 3.

Hard to say about the origin of the lightsaber. It's probably a case of borrowing from each other... Lucas probably saw some poster or show with a energy weapon and refined it to the lightsaber, while Tomino probably saw Star Wars and refined his weapon into the beam saber.

I fI recall, Tomino was inspired by Star Wars to the point where he wanted to do the Gundam in pure white so it would look like a stormtrooper.

Mmmh... If memory serves, I believe Tomino wanted to make the RX-78 looks like the White Knight, the hero from the old traditional legends: I do not think the Stormtrooper design has a real link with this, all the more as imperial soldiers are supposed to be 'evil' and the Gundam on the 'good' side of the One-Year-War...

[Keith]

That white RX-78 actually does look far cooler than I would have thought.

[Keith]

Fighter based space battles (Cosmo Tigers), R2-D2 (Analyzer),  and many other aspects of Star Wars ring of Yamato. Of course, Matsumoto didn't seem to mind at all (Tetsuro even reads through an ancient Star Wars zine with delight in an episode of GE:999).

Is this documented that Yamato influenced Lucas, or is it just conjecture? Space fighter battles is hardly a unique concept. Not to mention that Lucas likely drew more heavily from WWII dogfights (which is documented) than the Yamato anime series. If Lucas wanted a "War" in the "Stars", and he was drawn to WWII imagery, as evident in other aspects of the film, it's not a far reach to assume that Lucas logically arrived at space dog fighter battles independently of an anime series that shares vague similarities.

-Al

Does Lucas ever admit to most of his influences? Though I believe it is documented that he has a substancial fansub collection...