JELEINEN Posted February 25, 2004 Posted February 25, 2004 As much as I agree that the left pic here looks nicer... This is only one mode. What about fighter mode and Gerwalk? Plus the left pic doesn't have the wings on it... The proportions look better in battroid, but I bet it wouldn't transform into the other two modes very nicely. Exactly how much are you willing to bet?
1st Border Red Devil Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 It's an outstanding piece of work, but it too had it's fare share of compromises. And its also not exactly like the line art either. Hell...no toy or model can be EXACTLY like the line art. That is just the facts of life.
rocco_77 Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 (edited) As much as I agree that the left pic here looks nicer... This is only one mode. What about fighter mode and Gerwalk? Plus the left pic doesn't have the wings on it... The proportions look better in battroid, but I bet it wouldn't transform into the other two modes very nicely. Exactly how much are you willing to bet? Pretty much a null bet since we can't really prove it. But I would put $10 on it. Damn I wish he could have finished that 1/32... it was going to be beautiful... alas. BTW: Nice work on the Photoshoped version Tom. Edited February 26, 2004 by rocco_77
captain america Posted February 26, 2004 Posted February 26, 2004 Actually, the "photoshop" job is mine, and a rather pitiful one at that; really not my forte. Just a little pinhole-opening of insight as to why my Legioss design has a short/stubby nosecone: I conciously and intentionally made it that way for three reasons. Primarily, it was so the Armored Soldier wouldn't have some obscenely-long "cubumber" clanging against his calves. It also makes for more liberal posing of the legs. Second, as per contemporary fighter/attack aircraft trends, newer technology/miniaturization allows for lighter, more compact electronic components, and if we project foreward into the "Mospeada" timeline, roughly 2080-ish, the radar/fire control system/mission computers would be quite small indeed, and thus wouldn't require such a large nose/foreward fuselage to accomodate them. Lastly, the shorter nose allows for improved foreward visibility; especially at high AoA. This, combined with the high seating position/low canopy sills provides the pilot with excellent all-round visibility. Well, about as good as you can get with those enormous LEXs and the missile pod/shoulders blinding your 5 & 7 O'clock
Jasonc Posted February 27, 2004 Posted February 27, 2004 I asked about the price of the item, and although he doesn't work for Toynami, what he did say was this. Based on the fact that it is a limited edition toy, the fact that there is more diecast in this than the MPC, and the fact that the demand for this is much higher than the original MPC, that is the price Toynami may have come up with. He cannot say for certain though. I will agree with most of you. $80 is high, and if you can find it cheaper, go for it. Afterall, in this Capitalistic society, businesses have the right to charge whatever they like just like we have the right to shop around for the better deal. As far as the Beta connection, I think they are designing it, but as far as an actual sculpt, not even my buddy over here knows. I did find out that there is an actual section of the Alpha that conforms to link to a Beta, so keep your fingers crossed.
rocco_77 Posted February 28, 2004 Posted February 28, 2004 Actually, the "photoshop" job is mine, and a rather pitiful one at that; really not my forte. Just a little pinhole-opening of insight as to why my Legioss design has a short/stubby nosecone: I conciously and intentionally made it that way for three reasons. Primarily, it was so the Armored Soldier wouldn't have some obscenely-long "cubumber" clanging against his calves. It also makes for more liberal posing of the legs. Second, as per contemporary fighter/attack aircraft trends, newer technology/miniaturization allows for lighter, more compact electronic components, and if we project foreward into the "Mospeada" timeline, roughly 2080-ish, the radar/fire control system/mission computers would be quite small indeed, and thus wouldn't require such a large nose/foreward fuselage to accomodate them. Lastly, the shorter nose allows for improved foreward visibility; especially at high AoA. This, combined with the high seating position/low canopy sills provides the pilot with excellent all-round visibility. Well, about as good as you can get with those enormous LEXs and the missile pod/shoulders blinding your 5 & 7 O'clock I was looking at the source material used to construct the Photoshopped image above, and it seemed to be a little tricky to put together... Your forte or not, still a pretty good job... I'm a 14 year veteran with the program myself, and I can spot potential. Excellent reasoning for your shorter nose cone.... Any chance you will finish the project just for your own personal desire to complete it? I'm sure you have enough paying customers to keep you busy, but it would just be a shame to let that work go unfinished.... Hell, for a one of a kind like that, I would really consider paying a fair price to own it. Jasonc: keep up the recon my friend, and keep us posted if you find out any other good gossip about the Beta!
captain america Posted February 28, 2004 Posted February 28, 2004 Hi Rocco. The software I used for the image flop was Corel Photo Paint; probably version 8. I'm sure there are better and cleaner ways to achieve what I did and if anyone would like to try, they're more than welcome As for finishing the model, I've never ruled it out; in fact, I intend to finish it for myself when I have some free time. Until then, it will collect dust, sealed in its cardboard box in the far corner of my garage. This model is sort of like Elvis: most everyone rightly assumes that it is dead in its tracks, mourns and moves on. However, there's always a small group of resilient loyalists who swear it's still secretly alive. Every once in a while someone thinks they hear some new tidbit, or see part of it in the corner of a photograph. Some even claim that they own parts of it and are working on finishing it even now. Who's telling the truth? Who's right? And more fundamentally, what do you believe to be true?
legios Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Captain America, While I am incredibly impressed with your talent, I must say that the Yamato is closer to the line art...especially in the fighter mode. As a navy pilot and an aerospace engineer, I also disagree with your claims that a real future Legioss would have a shorter nose. The Legioss/Alpha was a fighter that designed to accelerate to orbit. It would need a pointed nose in order to more efficiently punch through the transonic region in order to get up to orbital speed. (which is about mach 25 by the way). Lastly, the trend will probable be to incorporate the radars onto the surfaces of the aircraft in the form of flat panel phased arrays. Basically, the radars will be on the wings. If anything, noses will get even more pointed...especially once they replace the pilot with a computer. Once again, I hope you are not insulted. You are a master craftsman. I absolutely suck at building pre-made models, and I cannot imagine building one from scratch. In fact, even getting the dimensions right on my CG Legioss is driving me mad. P.S. I included a picture of my extremely rough draft Legioss. The model was done just to experiment with proportions, but you can see the trade-offs that I had to make in order to make all the modes look like the cartoon. Legios
Myersjessee Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Legios, I think the point Captain America is trying to make is that the line art available makes a perfect transformation not possible. The nose is simply to long, and while I like that look, in battroid it looks wrong. John took his model in the direction of the harrier...which I think makes it a valid tradeoff for fighter, battroid, and Gerwalk. Even in your line art, your nose in fighter mode would be very long in battroid unless it was a removable piece. Also, BTW, Yamato didn't do a Legioss...so you must mean Toynami...or IMAI..or GAKKEN.
captain america Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Hi Legios. Yamato doesn't make any Mospeada toys. On the subject of anime line art accuracy, my Legioss design is very different from the source material, I never said otherwise; there are a lot of segments/details that aren't "accurate" to the anime, and this is precisely the way I wanted it. The anime style sheets were a starting/reference point, to which I made alterations and added features (H/I flare dispensers, a boarding ladder, wing slats, ankle-armor speedbrakes, etc...) that suited my OWN view of what a Legioss should be... A Legioss--"Moscato ver", if you prefer. With regards to radars, escape velocity, pointed nosecones and such, I'm not an engineer or a scientist, just an artist. However, when it comes to mecha that transform from transatmospheric aircraft to giant robots, I think it's safe to say that "realism" flew out the window long ago. The idea of a "transforming" mecha is little more than an entertaining flight of fancy that has very little grounded in reality, so I don't get bent out of shape worrying about these things. Rather, my aim was to take the original concept, and subtlely implant little details that allow people to more easily relate to it and think it MIGHT be real. For example, my Legioss model is dotted with rivets. Completely obsolete by even modern standards, as epoxies & adhesives can do the same job with greater strength and less weight, but when people see rivets and stressed-skin, they almost automatically think "aircraft" and "realistic details." Besides, they just plain look cool, and looking cool is what sci-fi models are born to do.
legios Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Sorry, I did mean Toynami and not Yamato. I have Yamato on the brain trying to figure out how to convince my wife that I need Max and Myria's 1/48th more than we need crown molding. Yes, I do know what crown molding is...I'm that whipped. My point is that people are knocking Toynami's alpha out of blind hate of all things robotech. I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that Toynami's alpha looks the best out of all alpha toys released. I'll admit, I thought the VF-1 MPC's would turn out a lot better and got burned. However, until I see otherwise, I gotta hand it to Toynami for the work they put into the alpha MPC. (BTW I totally dig my alpha superposeables, so I'm really optimistic). Legios
Hoptimus Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Sorry, I did mean Toynami and not Yamato. I have Yamato on the brain trying to figure out how to convince my wife that I need Max and Myria's 1/48th more than we need crown molding. Yes, I do know what crown molding is...I'm that whipped.My point is that people are knocking Toynami's alpha out of blind hate of all things robotech. I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that Toynami's alpha looks the best out of all alpha toys released. I'll admit, I thought the VF-1 MPC's would turn out a lot better and got burned. However, until I see otherwise, I gotta hand it to Toynami for the work they put into the alpha MPC. (BTW I totally dig my alpha superposeables, so I'm really optimistic). Legios I dont think it is Toynamis design that we are bashing. It is HG and Toynamis crazy pricing for this item and HGs evil buisiness practice.
CoryHolmes Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I dont think it is Toynamis design that we are bashing. It is HG and Toynamis crazy pricing for this item and HGs evil buisiness practice. Any chance we might be able to get away from that and back onto the toy? Afterall, this IS the MPC toy thread, is it not?
EXO Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I dont think it is Toynamis design that we are bashing. It is HG and Toynamis crazy pricing for this item and HGs evil buisiness practice. Any chance we might be able to get away from that and back onto the toy? Afterall, this IS the MPC toy thread, is it not? It's hand in hand... HG is too cheap and greedy to tell Toynami to make quality toys by today's standards. They're great toys if they were sold at under $30 (and I'm being generous there) but at the price they are asking for, theyr'e the ones making it look like crap. Look at the Banprestos, they're utter crap but people love them because of the price, and these are imported prices! I don't want to pay less, I have no problem paying 80 bucks for an MPC, but it better be worth it. Don't let them tell you that Robotech is a great classic, but we only have POS's to offer you. This goes for the MPC line so far. I'm going to keep an open mind about the Alphas, but I can't help but let this post explain my expectations.
bsu legato Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Any chance we might be able to get away from that and back onto the toy? Afterall, this IS the MPC toy thread, is it not? Hey, most of this thread IS about the toy. We only get sidetracked when people feel the need to post stuff like: OMG you guys jsut h4te teh MPC cuz its toynami u r biased. which prompts us to point out that we're put off largely because of the price, and not politicts.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Hey if we publicly call George Sohn out, and ask him or demand a reason why these things are priced so high and what he can do with HG avbout it...do youj thnink anything will happen? I remember kevin interviewed the guy shortly after splitting with yamato. Seemed lke he was a fan first business later kind of guy. I kinda sensse hes not too happy abotu the pricing but I have my doubts...maybe the goo fan in him will prevail and tell HG to lower the price by at least 20$? oh and sorry for beign a pesimist but with HGS prices...I think the beta would be too much to make. Think aout it...alpha=80 whats beta gonna be? if its 80 fans will say blasphemy because they paid 80 for the way more smaller alpha previously. things gotta be in the 100$s range the way things are going now.
Phyrox Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 I'm sure George Sohn is quite happy charging $80.00 for these, and I'm sure it will prove to be a good business decision. I wish they were less, and compared to similar products, they probably aren't "worth" 80, but the market will reflect demand, and I imagine these will move quickly. I could be wrong, but I don't think so...and more importantly I'm sure Mr. Sohn agrees.
captain america Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 To be perfectly fair on this matter, George Sohn/Toynami aren't getting $80.00. You must remember that the toy goes from the manufacturer to the distributor, and then to the retailer; all of which need to make a mark-up to make a living. The Manufacturer sets the MSRP based on feedback from distributors & retailers telling them(roughly) what the market will bear, and then work backwards to manufacture a toy for a maximum specified price, to which the manufacturr makes its mark-up & so on. I think what a lot of people don't realise is that large stores like Wal Mart and Target have different pricing policies regarding toys than smaller stores. To large chains, toys are considered lost leaders, and are often priced at cost or even slightly BELOW cost: the logic behind this is that the large retailers both--crush any other competitors carrying the same item, and also LURE buyers into the store for the low-priced toy, knowing that these same people, once in the store, will most probably also buy other things ( garden hose, candy, DVD player, etc) on which the store makes a much greater mark-up. Small collector stores, like Kevin, Spidey, etc. are much more limited in their buying power, and carry far fewer items/skus, so they can't really afford to sell items at/below cost: they have to make a mark-up just to stay afloat. Since the MPC Alpha is essentially aimed at collectors and collector shops, there chances of seeing them at $54-59.99 are very slim. That having been said, if demand suddenly falls-short, it's the retailer that usually takes the hit by selling them at reduced prices. This having been said, Toynami is very obviously milking the item for all it's worth. Based on the Veritech MPC, they use very cheap plastics and cut corners on the tampon printing, not to mention a few other things. About the only way to get these items cheaper is to hold back from buying the item at full price. If retailers can't sell as many at full mark-up, they will most likely order fewer of the second batch, or squeeze the distributor for a better price, who will in turn squeeze Toynami for a better price at the source. The flip-side to this is that poor sales MAY send a message to Toynami that the item isn't popular enough, and they may cut later skus, thus depriving fans of other variants, and most certainly the BETA. It's hard to say just how poor sales would affect Toynami, but I get the impression from all of their promotion, that they're committed to producing the Alphas one way or another; they'd look like dolts if they pooped-out half-way through the skus and called it quits. Besides, they need the higher sales numbers to offset production costs, so my advice would be to hold out if possible, and if you simply MUST buy it, try to get it at the lowest possible price... Let them know that you, as a consumer, don't appreciate being gouged. The only way to get through to a company is to poke them in the wallet.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 wasnt i said a while back in this thread that the toys themselves actually are 50$ but the only way retailers are able to sell is to charge 80$ lke rt.com otherwise toynami would not let the retailers sell?
Graham Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 they use very cheap plastics and cut corners on the tampon printing, LOL...he said 'tampon printing' A new Toynami side business? Graham
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 yea fpr only 80 DOLLARS with a macross skull symbol from DYRL! Tampon LOVE! hhhaha. Guys I really hope that beta wont cost moire than the alpha but who am i kidding...what IS decently priced byu this company?
Retracting Head Ter Ter Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Hey if we publicly call George Sohn out, and ask him or demand a reason why these things are priced so high and what he can do with HG avbout it...do youj thnink anything will happen?I remember kevin interviewed the guy shortly after splitting with yamato. Seemed lke he was a fan first business later kind of guy. I kinda sensse hes not too happy abotu the pricing but I have my doubts...maybe the goo fan in him will prevail and tell HG to lower the price by at least 20$? oh and sorry for beign a pesimist but with HGS prices...I think the beta would be too much to make. Think aout it...alpha=80 whats beta gonna be? if its 80 fans will say blasphemy because they paid 80 for the way more smaller alpha previously. things gotta be in the 100$s range the way things are going now. I hate Toynami but to be fair, if they make a 1/55 Beta with about the same standard of looks as the Alpha as we have seen, asking $120 isn't that much if you take Yamato's Q-Rau pricing into consideration.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 uhm not really. Being fair is charging 40$ for the alpha and 80$ for the beta. Wouldnt you much rather pay that insted of an 80 $ alpha and 140$ beta>?
Shaggydog Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 heh, I keep thinking there is new news posted to this thread every time I see the post count go up! Y'all are messin' wit my head! I do think most reasonable people agree the alpha is overpriced. I also think that I'm buying them all anyways. If you wanna call me stupid, I can't argue with that If you're bummed out that they're charging so much for such a hotly-anticipated toy, well, I feel for ya, brother.
Blaine23 Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 heh, I keep thinking there is new news posted to this thread every time I see the post count go up! Y'all are messin' wit my head!I do think most reasonable people agree the alpha is overpriced. I also think that I'm buying them all anyways. If you wanna call me stupid, I can't argue with that If you're bummed out that they're charging so much for such a hotly-anticipated toy, well, I feel for ya, brother. Cool... I can call you stupid! Seriously, go ahead and buy away. Just don't get too teary-eyed when the price drops and these are suddenly "sale-priced" on eBay and everywhere else. That's when I may consider buying one. But it would be cool if all of you "stupid" preorders could give me a detailed review before I buy it at a reduced price.
Shaggydog Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Heh. As a macross/robotech fan, I'm very used to seeing the prices drop later. I think almost all of my toynamis, bandais, and 1/60 yamatos went on sale for significantly reduced prices within a year or so of my original purchases. But I always have to have them NOW. Although, I did get a good deal on that super ostrich.. that's the one toy I was actually able to wait for. Doesn't exactly make up for the rest of em, but it helps.
Axelay Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 This model is sort of like Elvis: most everyone rightly assumes that it is dead in its tracks, mourns and moves on. However, there's always a small group of resilient loyalists who swear it's still secretly alive. Every once in a while someone thinks they hear some new tidbit, or see part of it in the corner of a photograph. Some even claim that they own parts of it and are working on finishing it even now. Who's telling the truth? Who's right? And more fundamentally, what do you believe to be true? My God, I'm one of those longshot true-believers who hopes that Moscato's Legioss will "return from the dead" one day. I'd love desperately to see it happen.
Jasonc Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 Honestly, I think that $60 is reasonable for any of the MPCs, especially for the Vf series. However, if they were gonna charge $80 for any MPC, the Alphas are the ones to do it for. It's just a good quality toy. Now, for the Beta, it may end up being about $100, which it should be $80 if it's produced, but imagine the demand for that thing once it's close to being made? The first full production of these is gonna make any half-way fan buy one. Most people here bought the 1/48s at a high price, and no one really complained. I think many here are just skeptical because of the first releases of the VF MPCs. Once it's out, I think many will pay the hight prices if they can't find it cheaper than they want.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 its not that we are skeptical for the most part...is the DAMNED SMALL size and the BIG price we are paying for somethin so small! I would gladly [ay 50$ for this thing dude. with 60$ maybe...80$=wait till price drops. I am sure it will be a good toy but niether that nor the VF-1 should be 80$. The 1/48 we had to pay a lot for since 1-it wasnt released domestically and thanks to our GREAST FRIENDS at HG...probbaly wont see it 2-the price the etailers like kev and tam were charging werent too different from the japanese msrp which is a GOOD thing. One more thing...the alpha is domestic....same with hasbros optimus prime anniversaryu edition...nmopw nthat thing is a foot tall and weighs 3 ppounds and has a btter qc record than toynami does.... when stuff like that comes out for a reasonable price of 63$....it makes me rethink buying the alkpha. bear in mind 15,000 is not a lmited number and prime is iunb/w limited and mass market saturaation/
Mechafan Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 its not that we are skeptical for the most part...is the DAMNED SMALL size and the BIG price we are paying for somethin so small! I would gladly [ay 50$ for this thing dude. with 60$ maybe...80$=wait till price drops. I am sure it will be a good toy but niether that nor the VF-1 should be 80$. Size should not matter it is the quality. Example diamond rings are very small but can cost in the thousands because of their quality. If the MPC are built well no one will complain but if they are like the Rick MPC as far as quality then $20 will be all they are worth. I will get this first one to see how it is plus my IMAI model is wrecked. If it is crap I will post it the same night it comes for all those who are waiting for first hand comments. As long as the joints are tight and it holds up well in all modes I will be satisfied. Then wait for my Beta to come out.
JELEINEN Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 Size should not matter it is the quality. Example diamond rings are very small but can cost in the thousands because of their quality. If the MPC are built well no one will complain but if they are like the Rick MPC as far as quality then $20 will be all they are worth. I will get this first one to see how it is plus my IMAI model is wrecked. If it is crap I will post it the same night it comes for all those who are waiting for first hand comments. As long as the joints are tight and it holds up well in all modes I will be satisfied. Then wait for my Beta to come out. A flawed argument. Even with diamonds, the bigger they are the more they cost.
Shaggydog Posted March 3, 2004 Posted March 3, 2004 HA! of all the piles of flawed arguments in this thread and others, you pick that one? How about: "One more thing...the alpha is domestic....same with hasbros optimus prime anniversaryu edition...nmopw nthat thing is a foot tall and weighs 3 ppounds and has a btter qc record than toynami does...." which is flawed for reasons that graham eloquently laid out in the q rau thread I believe.. Kind of a pointless argument in any case, but I suppose it'll go on til the toys come out, then for a few months after..
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 how is it pointless? The only reason people are paying 80 for the damn thing is because its the only alpha series of toys coming out anytime soon. EVERYONE on this board WANTS to pay LESS for this thing. I dont see how paying a more reasonable price is flawed.
Mechafan Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 Kind of a pointless argument in any case, but I suppose it'll go on til the toys come out, then for a few months after.. That the way it is till they come out. Debate after debate that what we do best here at MW. Regarless of the price I just hope it is a quality product. But cheeper price is always better.
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