CoryHolmes Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 The QC problems pail in comparison to that of the MPCs, at least from what I have seen. The worst Yamato problems I have seen are paint issues for the most part. Any loose joints are normally easily fixed with a little work. The MPCs however suffer from terrible problems that are not easy to fix. Some of these problems may be design issues but their items are just more shoddy than Yamato's. Have you seen the VF-11B that Yamato offered? What about Tab-B YF-19s?
zeo-mare Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 yea i agree it is true about toynami i do feel they get thrashed on purpose sometimes , but sometimes they are looking for it , many of the alphas have problems, they know what has been happening but they have not seemed to correct it yet. as for Yamato yes i know about the VF-11 both legs poped off on mine as for comparing the price of the 1/48 to the alpha there is a difference between price and QC, the 1/48 is also massive compared to the alpha, i have had a few 1/48's and have never had a problem with any but i have one alpha and it broke very quickly (I am still waiting for the replacement parts from them). why i do agree Yamato does have its flaws it seems like Toynami has many more. chris
Lynx7725 Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 i feel like people are somehow much more forgiving too yamato...when in reality..all their offerings have bad Q.C.! Of course we are. You know why? Because Yamato has shown in its 1/60 line that it is willing to learn from mistakes and to improve the product. Toynami has only thus shown that it is willing to provide good customer service -- a patch to the problem, not a solution. As for QC, it's expected for both companies to have bugs. They are getting some gnomes in the middle of nowhere in China to assemble the products -- these workers don't exactly take the most pride in this kind of work. Also remember -- the duds we see are those that pass QC, I wonder how much doesn't pass QC. I really should do a review of my Red Alpha, but the summary of it is this: Great design, poor execution, leading to many bugs. That's another area where Yamato earn our "trust" so to speak -- their design AND execution tends to be one cut above Toynami. So yeah, we are more forgiving to Yamato, but that's because Yamato earned it. Toynami hasn't (yet).
jenius Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 I'm not making excuses for Toynami but the Alpha is a much more complex toy than the (1/60) valk. When I got my first one I was amazed at how many things had to be pushed and pulled and slid into place all for the sake of both perfect transformation and accuracy (let's not discuss the Shadow Fighter). I was pulling and pushing and admiring the detail when I broke mine. It's so close to perfect transformation EXCEPT for that shoulder piece... what's the deal with that??? Anyway, i think just about everyone who gets one is astonished at how great the hands are, just like i did, only to have one fall apart. The toy is flawed but it is a pretty ambitious effort from a nearly virgin toy company and the ones that come out right kick butt. Yamato took an easier route and simplified the design and abandoned true transformation. Yamato has more money, more experience, and larger production volume so, while Toynami has no excuse, Yamato should stab itself in the gut with a sword if it can't correct its glariing deficiencies. The 1/48s are much better but yes, there are many complaints about them too. They're said to develop stress cracks with regularity in certain areas, have birth marks, and have logos painted on crooked (that's from this site's various topics from when I was researching whether or not to buy one). I love the one I have and it's vastly superior to an MPC valk and I would easily pay twice as much for a 1/48 over an MPC but since you're never going to see a yamato 1/48 Alpha there's really no point in anyone comparing the companies in this thread.
aaajin Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 here's some pics off ebay (valktronics) VFA-6I
Lynx7725 Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 I'm not making excuses for Toynami but the Alpha is a much more complex toy than the (1/60) valk. When I got my first one I was amazed at how many things had to be pushed and pulled and slid into place all for the sake of both perfect transformation and accuracy (let's not discuss the Shadow Fighter). I was pulling and pushing and admiring the detail when I broke mine. It's so close to perfect transformation EXCEPT for that shoulder piece... what's the deal with that??? Anyway, i think just about everyone who gets one is astonished at how great the hands are, just like i did, only to have one fall apart. The toy is flawed but it is a pretty ambitious effort from a nearly virgin toy company and the ones that come out right kick butt. Yamato took an easier route and simplified the design and abandoned true transformation. Yamato has more money, more experience, and larger production volume so, while Toynami has no excuse, Yamato should stab itself in the gut with a sword if it can't correct its glariing deficiencies. The 1/48s are much better but yes, there are many complaints about them too. They're said to develop stress cracks with regularity in certain areas, have birth marks, and have logos painted on crooked (that's from this site's various topics from when I was researching whether or not to buy one). I love the one I have and it's vastly superior to an MPC valk and I would easily pay twice as much for a 1/48 over an MPC but since you're never going to see a yamato 1/48 Alpha there's really no point in anyone comparing the companies in this thread. I think you are confusing a few issues here, and I think no matter what I say it would not change your mind, but for the sake of discussion I will tabulate my points for discussion. Your desire not to compare companies is fair enough. As such, I edited out the comparison to Yamato in this post, and will concentrate mainly on the Alpha and Toynami as a company. First, let's segregate the following: The design of the toy The execution/ production of the toy The QC practices of the company with regards to the toy The customer support practices of the company with regards to the toy The long-term ability of the company to improve on the toy All the above IMO makes up the customer experience with regards to the toy. Now, let's look at each area. ==================== 1. Design of the Toy First and foremost, I dispute your assertion that the Alpha is the more complex over the Valkyrie. The animation design of the Alpha is sweet in its simplicity, and when compared to the Valkyrie's folding torso/ swingbar legs/ fuselage arms design, it is mechanically simpler and in my opinion, better. The contention is whether Toynami needed to make the toy design this complicated. Having played with my Alpha for a few days now, I see very little point in having an extending torso, a hidden compartment for the (useless) cyclone, and the "loose" kneecap design. Other than this, mechanically, the design of the Alpha is pretty good -- if the above gimmicks had been done differently, I would say that this is a first rate design. As it is, I have to say that the design had some unnecessary complexity built into it. While you can plead accuracy as a design consideration, I do believe maintainability is also an issue for transformable toys. As a specific rebuttal, I do not believe the extending torso is necessary for the design, as it is one more moving part to jam up. Unfortunately, the area in concern is where dirt and dust can accumulate and jam up. And once it is jammed up and unmovable, you are stuck in one or two modes -- which detracts from the toy experience. 2. Execution/ Production of the Toy For me, this is where the MPC Alpha fails. Many of the components on the Alpha feels too weak for what it is supposed to do, and many of the components did not achieve the tolerances required by the design, especially the missile launcher covers. If you have played with the missile launcher covers, you would know they work.. but they would work better if they had been built with maybe 1mm less width. The added with create more pressure on the covers, causing them to break when a user casually manhandles them. Moreover, on my Alpha, the rear landing gears are prone to stick in the up position when the feet are retracted, This is due (IMO) to the lack of clearance between the gears and the feet. I also have what appears to be plastic stress marks on my Alpha. And white on red is very obvious.. Also, the choice of material is probably what's causing the breakage and such when manhandled by users. Overall, the MPC Alpha appears to be designed by a master designer but converted into production by an apprentice materials engineer. The design calls for very tight tolerances, which apparently the engineering was not able to match... causing poor execution. Also as a specific rebuttal, the hands are CRAPPY. As a long time modeller, I would have used 1/144 Gundam Plamo hands instead of the rubberly, prone to disintegration hands that are standard. The default hands are terrible and I would replace them at first opportunity. I would NOT trust those hands to stand up to the test of time -- I fully expect them to disintegrate after long exposure to air. You can say Toynami made an ambitious effort, but I can also say "biting off more than they can chew".... and no, they didn't kick butt because their execution fell behind their design. An ambitious effort to produce an engineering wonder is an engineering feat, but it may not bring customer value. And as a customer, if it does not bring me my value for money (due to design flaw/ material flaw/ QC, whatever), it doesn't matter to me how much an engineering feat the toy is. 3. The QC practices of the company with regards to the toy I think Toynami did an okay job with QC. Some of the flaws we've seen would escape a cursory QC glance and are due to material flaws that surface only after repeated usage. Of course, looking at my Alpha which came with paint chips out of box, and non-closing forearms/ shoulders, it's hard to continue not to damn the QC, but I work somewhat in that line and I can understand why certain things happens. 4. The customer support practices of the company with regards to the toy Toynami's customer support is good to the point where customers with defective toys have an avenue to get them exchanged at the manufacturers. I think this is good and definitely more reassuring to the buyers. But to be honest I rather not have to call them at all. 5. The long-term ability of the company to improve on the toy Toynami did do some improvements on their Veritech line, if memory serves, but Toynami simply has no track record of product improvement. From a quality-of-product POV, I have little to look forward in terms of product improvements, and thus each iteration of the Alpha is delivering less and less value to me as a customer. ==================== That's my POV on the Alpha -- you can also consider this my review of my Alpha. Having said all that, I currently has the Alpha pegged as a "toy" and not a "collectable/ model/ display/ toy" that my Yamatos are. The Alpha currently gets more play time than my Yamatos, but that's partially because I don't believe it has that long a lifespan either. The Alpha is sadly at the end between a medicore and a great toy.. only the lousy materials is holding it back.
Kin Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 here's some pics off ebay (valktronics) VFA-6I lol
jenius Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 Although I can't see the pics I'm assuming they were the same ones linked to earlier. I tried to make a post about them before but my explorer crashed while loading Anyway, it's pretty clear that the pictured alpha did not have its legs and torso extended.
jenius Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 Lynx, I agree with pretty much everything you said about the Alpha. Perhaps my post said it in a rosier light but, generally, I was trying to say about the same things. One thing I find particularly humorous are the missile bays on the arms. C'mon, if you're never going to be able to get them to look right then why even bother?? Still, I appreciate the effort and I stick by the statement: When you get one that is done RIGHT it kicks butt. So the Valks and the Alphas have problems... maybe the company will get everything right just in time for the Beta?? Shut up... let me dream... it's such a pretty dream...
zeo-mare Posted January 25, 2005 Posted January 25, 2005 (edited) So the Valks and the Alphas have problems... maybe the company will get everything right just in time for the Beta?? the only real problem is the beta is a different design, they will hopefully have the alphas fixed by then, but since it is something different it will probably come with a whole new set of problems, i really want the beta to, so i am keeping my fingers crossed. got a email from toynami they sent replacment peices for the hands on mine that broke they said 3 to 7 days. so far their customers service has been very good. chris edit : by the way Ladic if you can post pics and a reveiw of yours, i would love to see how this new one stacks up to the ones currently on the market in terms of QC Edited January 25, 2005 by zeo-mare
jenius Posted January 25, 2005 Posted January 25, 2005 he said he got a Rook, we're all waiting on a review of the Lancer MPC. I'm tempted to buy one but I'm going to wait until Toynami sends me replacements for two of the other MPCs I purchased. I would like to buy one near full price just to show my support for Mospeada/Robotech toys and then I'll probably wait until they're much cheaper before buying any more. I want a BETA darn it, even if it means I gotta spend an extra $20 on each Alpha as they're released...
Ladic Posted January 25, 2005 Posted January 25, 2005 yep, i got the rook, not the new one. When Gamestop sells de lancer for $39.99 I'll be there.
Feyd-Rautha Posted January 26, 2005 Posted January 26, 2005 man, ive been waiting for my replacment bernard for 6 weeks over here silly thing is ..it's a replacment OF a replacment with busted hand! the first replacment showed up in 2 weeks or so. i can understand the holidays slowing them down ..but it's getting a bit rediculous! called toynami after a few unanswered e-mails..then they e-mail and say ..sorry for delay thanks for your patience! but...i'm losing it!
jenius Posted January 27, 2005 Posted January 27, 2005 that makes me feel craptastic, i just mailed them two Alphas for replacing... Hope they don't take so long...
jenius Posted January 27, 2005 Posted January 27, 2005 HOLY CRAP... I hate to give you bad news dude (feyd) but right after I wrote that reply about how i just sent Toynami my replacements (on Saturday 1/22) I got a reply saying I would be receiving my replacements in 1-3 days with a UPS tracking number. SWEEEEEET... I wonder why they're givin' you the run around????
zeo-mare Posted January 27, 2005 Posted January 27, 2005 yea they sent my replacements pretty quick to they also said about 3 days, i got alot of snow here in MA over the wek so it has probably been slightly delayed. chris
Feyd-Rautha Posted January 27, 2005 Posted January 27, 2005 HOLY CRAP... I hate to give you bad news dude (feyd) but right after I wrote that reply about how i just sent Toynami my replacements (on Saturday 1/22) I got a reply saying I would be receiving my replacements in 1-3 days with a UPS tracking number. SWEEEEEET...I wonder why they're givin' you the run around???? nahhh, that's good newz dude!..glad too hear it ,+ it also means my replacment is'nt in limbo....... if your getting yours soon. and i can't b#$#tch too much , these customer service guys really are on the ball(too bad the chinese Q.c. people arn't ) - afterall..my first replacement took only a week or so too arive yehhh, toynami is really doing themselves a favor by being prompt+courteous with customer service! i still hate waiting thou
Feyd-Rautha Posted January 27, 2005 Posted January 27, 2005 (edited) oop dublepost-- also i hemmed and hawwed for them too INSPECT this 2ND replacement..too avoid further problems. ...perhaps this is why i'm still waiting EDIT. . .... - just checked my e-mail and toynami has sent my tracking#bernard is on it's way JUICEY!!! Yep, toynami is showing it has salt by: friendly replacement of dud product! BRAVO Toynami..! Edited January 27, 2005 by Feyd-Rautha
bigkid24 Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 What's the word on the sales of the alpha? I just checked robotech.com and they haven't sold out of any of them. Plus, with the word of the alphas already going to clearance type prices, I don't think this bodes well for later robotech MPCs.
jenius Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 As far as sales go I don't think any MPC ever sold out with any speed. I have noticed that the Bernard valk is now selling above resale at some places so that bodes well. I think Rook is going to end up being the Ben Dixon of the group but even her price seems to have leveled out now that Gamestop has stopped selling them at a loss. I still got my fingers crossed for a Beta... and i'll keep 'em crossed until I get official word that it's no use.
bigkid24 Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 Well, I think of the VFs Rick and Roy sold out fairly quickly. And I would think that given the time between releases at least the Bernard would have sold out by now. I think a sellout of at least one of them would have been a good sign towards a Beta happening.
EXO Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) The Rick MPC took a while to sell out. And they went for really low prices for a long time on eBay. Plus didn't Kevin say they never finished the 15,000 run on those first MPCs? As for the rest of the toys, I'm completely apathetic towards them making Cyclones and the Beta now. It just seems they're not up to the job. The Alpha was decent, but it seems like a lot of people got lemons and it really is poorly designed as far as looks compared to price. (Size, Big Feet, and heavy arms caused it to slowly drift down when posed, landing gears were undersized causing the belly to touch the ground.) If it was done in 1/32 scale they could have avoided all those issues, but their mark up would have been huge. Edited January 28, 2005 by >EXO<
m.bernard Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 MY alpha fell apart when the glue in the centerpiece desolved, i am so disapionted!!! i'm not buying an other ever again.. And both the cyclone and the beta can go to hell for all i care. It's going to be more crap. why dont they just use srews like every other toycompany.. glue usualy only lasts 5 years so many people well get the same problem in the future. That's it i! am trough with toynami i got an old gakken alpha and cyclone. and that's it for me...no more mospeada/next gen toys untill an other toy company starts making them.
Mechafan Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 I got mines yesterday #343. This one was in good shape. Tight joints, no paint smuges or finger prints on it.
Feyd-Rautha Posted January 28, 2005 Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) Well, I think of the VFs Rick and Roy sold out fairly quickly. And I would think that given the time between releases at least the Bernard would have sold out by now. I think a sellout of at least one of them would have been a good sign towards a Beta happening. ....i predict we will se a quick sell out for the SHADOW version!!! let's face it ..the VF series sucked royal arss..and had HEAVY competition from Yamato + Bandai! with Mospeada..there is zero competition ..and the sculpt is worlds better than the fugly VF series! ...and it's diffucult too say with certainty how toynami's sales are going.. it's entirely possible that the Bernard could sell out in the first 6 months or a year and that would not hurt their bottom line at all who say's they need too sell out of 15,000 in some short time frame like the first 6 months of release? I'm no authority on this topic..and my guess is that the speculation about this could be without much merit, other words ..who REALLY knows where toynami stands on adequate sales figures and rate of sales! so,all should feel free too use your "spidey sense" of toy marketing if you will ..but until someone at tonami says..."wow,were not selling enough too make ourselves/hg happy" ..until then - we'll just have too wonder! ***the fact that many VF skull/rick mpc's are selling for well over $150 dollars is a good sign that the toynami product is gaining true collectable status! gawd knows why..since the VF's are pitifully sculpted and horribly constructed! as far as cyclones and beta's ....i'm holding my breath for these babies! honestly..i'd trade my first born for a variable Bartley or yellow ride armor!!! what are the alternitives...well the Imai yellow i have built is my all time favorite mech in my collection no bartley, thou as far as the Beta/tred????.. well i wont be shelling out $20,000 u.s. for the only known gakken for sale thru carl hoff.(bartley type tread) Edited January 28, 2005 by Feyd-Rautha
zeo-mare Posted January 29, 2005 Posted January 29, 2005 well i got my replacements in but they did not send the gun like i asked and the sent the wrong hands, they sent me the ones for the red Alpha instead, it still looks cool on him but it is not perfect. chris
Ed.Coli Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) Got my Green (#1365) yesterday in the mail from Valkyrie Exchange (Many many thanks!), with a certain level of apprehension having read this entire thread during my lurking days. Box came with a "FRAGILE!!" label slapped on, so that didn't help. Anyhow, the packaging is swank, but you knew that already. Didn't have much time to look over it in depth, since I'm 6 kinds of busy, but from what I saw, it was very solid, none of the dreaded QC mishaps that I've been reading so much about. The paint app is spot-on, the joints are solid and tight (regarding the landing gear, almost TOO tight), and it hasn't exploded yet, so that's a plus. The size surprised me; this seems way too big for a 1/55 scale, especially compared to the 1/48 IMAI kit. From the crazy complaints about size, I almost thought it'd be some tiny thing, but it was respectably sized, and had good heft. Another plus for this one! Honestly, I can't speak for those who had crappy MPCs, but I think that Toynami finally created a true Masterpiece. In my opinion, this thing was worth every cent I paid for the preorder, and I have none of that "customer's remorse" that usually comes after a dissappointing purchace. Having handled one of the infamous MPC VFs, this Legioss/Alpha really blows the rest of Toynami's crap outta the water, and, IMO, puts the company in the higher echelons of the transforming toy industry. If they really did fix all the QC issues in the 3rd run, then by damn, you need to run the hell out and buy a green one. Anyhow, that's just my personal experience. Pics soon. Edited January 31, 2005 by Ed.Coli
LtStick Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 Mine came Thursday the 27th. I got mine from Twin Moons anime and as always it was packed well. Mine was number 342 and as near as I can tell there are no problems with mine at all. The joints are tight no blemishes on the paint or other problems.
Uxi Posted January 31, 2005 Posted January 31, 2005 I got the green / Lancer one (#1853) yesterday. Pretty cool IMO. It's definately not as small as I was fearing from hearing it was 1/55 and reading this thread (probably when it was 20 pages or so smaller). It seems well constructed with a good paint job. I was kinda afraid to transform it at first, but the manual is pretty good and toy itself is nice and solid. Only one of the old complaints that come to mind (this thread is too fracking huge for me to go through it) is the right arm droops when the gunpod is put into it. And I'm having a slight issue with the right arm fitting to the peg hole when it's collapsed in. I usually have to leave it slightly telescoped to reach the whole, which means there's a gap. Left one is fine though and it seems symmetrical everywhere else, though... so I'm kinda confused about it. I've been leaving the left arm with a small gap so it matches up. As far as the design... the feet are HUGE... but I didn't really notice it until I left it in battloid and stepped back and looked at it. I'm usually leaving it in fighter anyways. My design complaint would be that I can't have the shoulder launcher thingy is an add-on part. Shades of 1/60 heat shields to me. Anyways, I'm thinking of getting one more green and maybe the red one. I'll definately be getting a shadow when it comes out.
Recommended Posts