Will DYRL movie do better if shown in the States

[treatment]

Just browsing www.animenewsnetwork.com tonite and saw the reported lackluster box-office sales-figures of Appleseed movie here in the States. They mentioned Gits-2 did better last year.

So I thought, man, what if DYRL is finally shown here in the States. What would the box-office figures gonna be?

Will it do better or worse than Gits/Gits-2 and Appleseed? I don't know how Miyazaki's films did here, tho.

I mean, many of us grew up with Macross (or even robotech) branding and have jobs and stuff now. And Macross is still such a namebrand among us old-geezers. We still buy it's toys, for $deity's sake.

I'm just wondering if it'll do better or worse here assuming it can finally be shown in the movie-houses here in the States.

What do you think?

Edited January 19, 2005 by treatment

[Beltane70]

Just browsing www.animenewsnetwork.com tonite and saw the reported lackluster box-office sales-figures of Appleseed movie here in the States. They mentioned Gits-2 did better last year

How in the world do they expect anime films to bring in a decent amount of box office sales when they're given the limited releases that have been getting for years? Appleseed was released in what, maybe 100 theaters instead of the thousands of theaters in the US?

[eugimon]

I think most general movie goers in america would find DYRL to be slwly paced and certain segments to be rather silly... I'm thinking parts of the hikaru/minmei romance as well as the song as a weapon of mass distraction thing.

Also... and probably more important.. I think most adult americans do not think of animation as a serious film genre... even on NPR which tends to be more progressive thinking about stuff like this.. they usually preface all anime/animation reviews with, "And if you like this sort of thing..." So I think adults need a reason/excuse to go. Hence why all ages animation suach as the sort from pixar and dreamworks tends to do well, while films aimed at mature audiences tends to do rather poorly.

And don't forget DYRL in one form did show here in the states, back at the height of Robotech's popularity.

[Pat Payne]

I voted "undecided," since for the forseeable future, the question is purely academic.

[Renato]

Just browsing www.animenewsnetwork.com tonite and saw the reported lackluster box-office sales-figures of Appleseed movie here in the States. They mentioned Gits-2 did better last year

How in the world do they expect anime films to bring in a decent amount of box office sales when they're given the limited releases that have been getting for years? Appleseed was released in what, maybe 100 theaters instead of the thousands of theaters in the US?

Yeah, but so was Spirited Away. In fact I'm doing research on the ever-widening gap between the mainstream and subculture.

One of the reasons for these limited releases is that a general release would be suicide because, put simply, nobody would go and see an animated film with elements different to those which they are used to. In effect, audiences' brains have been "Disneyfied", to put it crudely. Even the darker-than-average Iron Giant did not fare well at the box office, though the adults who have seen it hold it in high regard.

Audiences have certain expectations of an animated film, and it is the business of distributors and studios to simply fulfill that, not to make them appreciate something they have no interest in.

Yesterday and today this very topic came up, if you want to see the outline of my argument, I can post it, but it is three A4 pages long.

On a slightly related note, I also have a transcript of a recent interview session with a couple of MW members, in which similar discussions appear.

On second thoughts, I may just put it all on geocities or something.

[Radd]

Appleseed was also a bad movie. It did everything wrong that mainstream movies are often guilty of, and then some, and didn't have much marketing on top of it.

[Renato]

It did everything wrong that mainstream movies are often guilty of, and then some,

Like what? I haven't seen it.

[azrael]

Audiences have certain expectations of an animated film, and it is the business of distributors and studios to simply fulfill that, not to make them appreciate something they have no interest in.

Hence why all ages animation suach as the sort from pixar and dreamworks tends to do well, while films aimed at mature audiences tends to do rather poorly.

Both of these are true. Specific audiences are much harder to target then the general audience. DYRL? would, unfortunately, be audience-specific. So there would be little to gain from this situation.

Also, the general American audience is more in tune with Disney and Warner Bros. cartoons. Pokemon movies have quietly slipped below the general radar in the States. The last movie to come to the states was quietly marketed unlike the first movie that came out. The audience became too specific.

There would be a bunch of other reasons but I could go on and on and on....

[Gaijin]

DYRL is not a mass market film. Don't think it would fare well. Sadly...if they retitled it...you know what...it would fare better.

[Stampeed Valkyrie]

Appleseed was a bad movie??? ...right ok back to the topic at hand. As long as anime movies get limited releases like GITS 2 and Appleseed, its no wonder box office sales are horrible. At least GITS 2 was released to more then 5 theatres nationwide, I consider myself lucky that I only had to drive and hour to go and see it. I ended up going to see Appleseed last weekend with other members from our local anime club. There were 10 of us, and 11 people in the theatre.

Rob

[bandit29]

Just browsing www.animenewsnetwork.com  tonite and saw the reported lackluster box-office sales-figures of Appleseed movie here in the States.  They mentioned Gits-2 did better last year.

So I thought, man, what if DYRL is finally shown here in the States. What would the box-office figures gonna be?

Will it do better or worse than Gits/Gits-2 and Appleseed?  I don't know how Miyazaki's films did here, tho.

I mean, many of us grew up with Macross (or even robotech) branding and have jobs and stuff now.  And Macross is still such a namebrand among us old-geezers.   We still buy it's toys, for $deity's sake.   

I'm just wondering if it'll do better or worse here assuming it can finally be shown in the movie-houses here in the States. 

What do you think?

Appleseed was only shown in 31 theaters. GITS 2 was shown in 47. Plus GITS already has an installed somewhat mainstream anime fanbase.

I thought Appleseed was pretty awesome. One of the best anime movies I've seen. It wasn't the bore fest that GITS 2 was.

DYRL? wouldn't do any better than either of these films. Face it DYRL's time has passed. The only chance it would have at better numbers is if the Robotrash fans showed up to heckle it.

Edited January 19, 2005 by dejr8bud

[Zentrandude]

Im not sure if it will do bad or do good if it was played on the states.

sure the robofanboys will say what up whats the dillio with their names but that shouldn't hurt it much.

[Radd]

My opinion and reasoning for that opinion can be found at:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=3751

Now, plot and character developement are not so important to me that I cannot enjoy a simple, straightforward action movie, but when the story relies on suspending your disbelief to the point that you can accept the main character running off on a wild goose chase simply because she can't remember an important childhood figure and friend, or that her mother gave her the item the goose chase was meant to go after (even telling her what it was called and who to give it to, that important childhood friend that she seems to have forgotten) and when people are asking her to go find it, by name, geez.

And let's not get into the circular logic of many of the characters motivations again, like I said it's all there in that thread.

Back on topic, however, it really depends on how well DYRL? was marketed. Let's not be so naive as to believe good movies will succeed and bad movies will fail. It all depends on the marketing, how receptive the audience is to the type of movie being marketed. It helps if the movie has aspects that would appeal to several markets, wich DYRL? does, and the marketing company needs to sell those aspects to the public, but not in such a way as to convince everyone that the movie is something it is not, such as an out an out action movie with nothing else, or a comedy, or a children's movie. Such mistakes will make the opening weekend a bad experience for most of the public that attends, and negative word of mouth will quickly spread.

To that end, several things must occure before DYRL? can be released to a receptive market.

Animation must regain at least as much popularity as it had during Disney's last peak, wich was around the time of Aladdin or Lion King. Anime-specific popularity must stay at least as high as it is now.

Space Opera and general science-fiction should probably gain a bit more popularity for successful theatre run.

Big West must market Macross Stateside like it never has before. Macross Plus, SDF Macross, Macross II, even Robotech must be all over the place. Airing on cable and Cartoon Network, and that ADV Anime Channel, for instance. Harmony Gold, should they seek to pursue a fair and profitable relationship with Big West could stand to do better than ever with thier hold on SDF Macross if they sought to aid Big West in these endeavours without tying up any possible cooperation with ridiculas demands or claims.

Toys and other merchandise must be marketed. I can think of several ways this can be accomplished that benefit both HG and Big West without Big West being accosted with unreasonable demands from Harmony Gold over the non-SDF toys.

The music would have to be promoted like nobody's business/ Not just DYRL?'s, but the entire franchise. To cater to an english speaking audience, Big West could hire Mari Ijima to work on english versions of the original SDF and DYRL? music. While there are difficulties that could make these english translations less enjoyable than their original Japanese counterparts to longtime fans, this could be a big breakthrough to the American audience at large.

Finally, DYRL?, like many have pointed out, would have to get a wide release, as big as any normal Hollywood theatrical release.

Unless all of these criteria are met, and possibly some I have not thought of, DYRL? would flop like any other anime movie release.

As such, this question can not be answered with a yes/no/undecided poll.

[bandit29]

My opinion and reasoning for that opinion can be found at:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=3751

Now, plot and character developement are not so important to me that I cannot enjoy a simple, straightforward action movie, but when the story relies on suspending your disbelief to the point that you can accept the main character running off on a wild goose chase simply because she can't remember an important childhood figure and friend, or that her mother gave her the item the goose chase was meant to go after (even telling her what it was called and who to give it to, that important childhood friend that she seems to have forgotten) and when people are asking her to go find it, by name, geez.

And let's not get into the circular logic of many of the characters motivations again, like I said it's all there in that thread.

Back on topic, however, it really depends on how well DYRL? was marketed. Let's not be so naive as to believe good movies will succeed and bad movies will fail. It all depends on the marketing, how receptive the audience is to the type of movie being marketed. It helps if the movie has aspects that would appeal to several markets, wich DYRL? does, and the marketing company needs to sell those aspects to the public, but not in such a way as to convince everyone that the movie is something it is not, such as an out an out action movie with nothing else, or a comedy, or a children's movie. Such mistakes will make the opening weekend a bad experience for most of the public that attends, and negative word of mouth will quickly spread.

To that end, several things must occure before DYRL? can be released to a receptive market.

Animation must regain at least as much popularity as it had during Disney's last peak, wich was around the time of Aladdin or Lion King. Anime-specific popularity must stay at least as high as it is now.

Space Opera and general science-fiction should probably gain a bit more popularity for successful theatre run.

Big West must market Macross Stateside like it never has before. Macross Plus, SDF Macross, Macross II, even Robotech must be all over the place. Airing on cable and Cartoon Network, and that ADV Anime Channel, for instance. Harmony Gold, should they seek to pursue a fair and profitable relationship with Big West could stand to do better than ever with thier hold on SDF Macross if they sought to aid Big West in these endeavours without tying up any possible cooperation with ridiculas demands or claims.

Toys and other merchandise must be marketed. I can think of several ways this can be accomplished that benefit both HG and Big West without Big West being accosted with unreasonable demands from Harmony Gold over the non-SDF toys.

The music would have to be promoted like nobody's business/ Not just DYRL?'s, but the entire franchise. To cater to an english speaking audience, Big West could hire Mari Ijima to work on english versions of the original SDF and DYRL? music. While there are difficulties that could make these english translations less enjoyable than their original Japanese counterparts to longtime fans, this could be a big breakthrough to the American audience at large.

Finally, DYRL?, like many have pointed out, would have to get a wide release, as big as any normal Hollywood theatrical release.

Unless all of these criteria are met, and possibly some I have not thought of, DYRL? would flop like any other anime movie release.

As such, this question can not be answered with a yes/no/undecided poll.

That's the only part of Appleseed I didn't like . That part didn't ruin the rest of the movie though, IMO. The rest was pretty cool.

And your criteria for DYRL? being a success in the US is delusional.

[bsu legato]

As much as we love it, DYRL would not perform at the box office in the least. It's a 20 year old movie based on the non-Robotech version of an anime that has little exposure in North America. If movies like Appleseed and Innocence are only getting released in 40-odd theaters, why would DYRL get a broader release? Anime has made great strides in the marketplace here, but not so much that something like DYRL would draw enough attention that people would want to check it out. No, to the majority of the movie going public it would just be some bizarre movie about Japanese Robots. They'd rather see the latest Adam Sandler rom-com.

[EXO]

A lot of DYRL is based on nostalgia... and I don't mean from us fanboys 20 years later. I mean that in 1984 it was meant to capture the feeling of someone that was familiar with the characters and the storyline. It can stand alone as a movie, but it would probably take multiple viewings to truly appreciate. When you watch it even the music pulls you to a familiar feeling... theres no way an audience today would get that. Not if they see it for the first time, not with the attention span that they can muster up and not with the demand for CG type animation. People on this board may appreciate it for what it's really worth, but to an American audience it's just another Japanese cartoon with big eyed characters and transforming robots.

[Prime]

Interestingly, when I picked up my DVD copy of GITS 2 at my local Futureshop, they had it ranked in DVD sales at number 9 overall (I don't know if that is store-specific). I thought that was pretty damn good considering...

I can't see DYRL doing well theatrically at all. Even though it is excellent animation, it certainly looks dated when compared to the likes of the CG films like GITS 2 and Appleseed. And like you guys have said, straight animation is going to have harder time attracting older audiences because of the "Disnification." ANd younger fans aren't going to like it because it isn't straight action and doesn't have trading card battles. CG Anime films, crappy or not, are going to have better luck at the box office in that regard.

And as far as DYRL goes, I can see even Robotech fans going, "WTF?"

Edited January 19, 2005 by Prime

[Agent ONE]

I answered "yes" but its conditional.

IF some new animation could be added at the begining just to explain things and we could get a little more concise, like speed things up, in the middle.

[Panon]

DYRL has about as much theatrical release success potential as Gundam F-91 did.

[Radd]

That's the only part of Appleseed I didn't like . That part didn't ruin the rest of the movie though, IMO. The rest was pretty cool.

That was the majority of the movie's plot, and a good 50% or more of it's running time.

And your criteria for DYRL? being a success in the US is delusional.

Saying this does not make it true. Explain why.

[Beltane70]

Yeah, but so was Spirited Away. In fact I'm doing research on the ever-widening gap between the mainstream and subculture.

In its intial release, yes, Spirited Away did show in a limited number of theaters. However, once it was nominated for the Academy award, Spirited Away showed up in regular movie theaters. Unlike Appleseed, GiTS and GiTS 2, I didn't have to drive an hour to go to NYC to see it.

[Renato]

Yeah, but so was Spirited Away. In fact I'm doing research on the ever-widening gap between the mainstream and subculture.

In its intial release, yes, Spirited Away did show in a limited number of theaters. However, once it was nominated for the Academy award, Spirited Away showed up in regular movie theaters. Unlike Appleseed, GiTS and GiTS 2, I didn't have to drive an hour to go to NYC to see it.

Spirited Away was lucky in a way, in that it fit Western (and to an extent, Japanese) audience's conceptions of what an animated film should be like. I.e. the content is not far removed from Disney movies, and te whole thing can be interpreted as an Alice in Wonderland update.

Movies like DYRL and Innocence have no bearing whatsoever with "animated family movie" trends, and so a mainstream audience is unresponsive.

[Gyges]

I would echo all the comments made heretofore about the limited mass-market appeal of anime in general, but I would especially underscore the comments made about DYRL? in particular; namely, qua feature film, it stands extrememly poorly on its own. The characterizations are shallow, the plotline thin, and far too many deus ex machina in rapid succession.

Make no mistake, I absolutely adore DYRL?. But DYRL? is primarily intended to preach to the choir, as it were, and be seen and appreciated by those who have already seen the series. It would never do as well as GitS or Appleseed unless it were made as accessible as those latter works, which would necessitate the developments Radd outlined.

[Hikuro]

Anime films unless dubbed by big named stars really don't do well EVER in box office films...you also have to take into consideration that DYRL is a fairly old film, the animation might not appeal towards many, and since its a cartoon it wouldn't be looked upon adults who would take their kids in...unless you were to show class of the bionoids where a 2 hour movie show becomes 30 minutes

[Renato]

It would never do as well as GitS or Appleseed unless it were made as accessible as those latter works, which would necessitate the developments Radd outlined.

I really want to know exactly how "well" GITS, Innocence or Appleseed have done.

I don't know anyone who has seen them, and I'm here in Japan. Oh, wait, I do know one guy who saw Innocence. But he's from Brazil, not Japanese.

I stand by my statement, no animated movie aiming for an "adult market" will be received by the mainstream.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If people were familiar with the series there might have been a flow on effect. Similar to how transformers series got people at least curious to see the characters in a movie. We were familiar with optimus, megatron, the humans etc and the whole war on earth, and understood about the reason for transformations and stuff. Seeing them allowed us to just walk in a theatre expecting an action movie without too much boring explanation of who everyone is. (and even then, the starwars opening, with text scrolling up into the air, was enough explanation to those who were not familiar with the series.)

I think if the macross tv series was released to introduce what the space war is about, there wouldn't be as much "WTF?" factor interfereing into people's preconceptions about what an animated movie should be. They would just say,: "I know him, that's the character from that sci-fi tv series who piloted that transformable jet thingy. That thing was awesome, I wonder what the movie is like?"

If you were connected to the characters in the tv series, you had access to actual toys, you recognised the music, this stuff helps people to identify with a movie itself. I remember seeing gits 1 and realising how hard this could be for someone who had not read the manga. It was way too short imo.

I just wish macross and robotech could co-exist together so that fans of either can have thier cake and eat it. Both stories would exist side by side seperately, and both would hopefully have thier fans getting what they wanted.

This way if DYRL were to be released, people who were new fans of the macross tv series would understand what was going on and actually care about the love triangle, the music, the backstory etc instead of only anticpating big explosions and stuff. The tv series goes into better detail, people who had seen it and liked it, would then automatically want to see the movie. But if robotech and macross can't co-exist, chances are people will not care about any events going on in the movie and wonder why there is a fanbase for it in the first place. When people don't understand something they bash it, and accuse it of being overhyped by fans because thier exposure to it was done in the wrong way. (force fed to them rather than having them gently developing a liking)

I think by slowly getting them into the series and then following up with a movie you will probably get a better reaction. (with mainly the new fans who knew nothing about macross before.)

This is one of the reasons why a remake of an old series will help today's generation understand macross as it is ressurected in some way similar to how you can kind of ressurect a dead character like astroboy/Atom and expose another generation to an old thing without confusing them. People may not want to watch old stuff because of predjudices they have held by what they are exposed to now.(the spoilt rotten factor)

[Prime]

I really want to know exactly how "well" GITS, Innocence or Appleseed have done.

Well, according to the IMDB, GITS 2 made about a million on 50 screens or so.

And I along with Best Buy that I mentioned earlier, my local HMV had GITS2 DVD listed at number 8 in overall DVD sales for the week.

[NeoverseOmega]

I agree with most of what's mentioned above. I find the choice of transformers the movie as a mainstream comparison interesting because almost every review I've seen of it labels it as a pretentious pile of overhyped consumer drivel without even the redeeming cheese value of some other complete bombs (and I loved that movie as a kid). It's interesting that Disney is a massive corportate powerhouse capable of churning out T-shirts, toys, sporting goods and underwear with their trademarked figures without the artistic nature of their movies being questioned by the majority of the population (notice I say majority, I think most of us know better), but if a piece of animation that most of the American population associate with a toy is put out, it will be viewed through a cynical screen of media hype. Most people I know respond one of three ways when they see a screen from Macross: either its Oh, it's like Voltron or, Isn't that that transformer (that transformer being Jetfire) or cool, isn't that from that old eighties show robo-whatchamacallit? All are toy associations, all are kid associations, and all are in most peoples minds dated anomalies - the bizzare trivia that people recognize only after the answer has already been given. To compound this problem, Anime has a very different manner of storytelling than most people in America are used to. Just as a TV show the Macross saga of Robotech bored and stupefied most people I knew because in most American cartoons each episode is a fully enclosed story hinging on some kind of immediately recognizable plot device (Megatron devises plan X to accomplish goal A and the Autobots must do Y to prevent B). Much of Macross is character interaction and not every episode culminates in a battle, much less the one one one black and white confrontations in most american cartoons. Anime also operates with a number of predispositions that Americans have a difficult time swallowing - lets face it, Misa is an interesting character, but most people I know who've seen Anime get red in the face when they hear the twittering high pitched and frantic portrayals often attatched to anime women. Bring J-Rock into it and it becomes absurd to most people (I'll admit, even understanding the nature of culture shock within Macross, there's something a little painful about watching a somewhat pre-pubescent looking girl in a sailorsuit singing an alien menace into submission in the middle of a fantastic looking space battle. When I showed Macross to my best friend at the time, he covered his face going "Oh my God, that is so bad, and I thought american romantic comedies were cheesy". Once he understood the concept, he recognized it was interesting but immediately added that it was done very very poorly. Now some of this is cultural- Amy Tan once said that Americans take very little seriously and the East takes everything seriously, and something that is dramatic in the east can appear like bad comedy in the west. We are inundated by cliches, hammy lines, and melodrama all the time - after all, the entertainment INDUSTRY is huge and loves to stick to any form that works repeatedly. Strangely enough the sheer weight of some of the things Macross deals with makes many people even MORE judgemental when something seems awkward, cliche, or just plain absurd. Add to this the fact that cartoons are viewed as either family fairy tales or extended commercials and an attempt at a serious cartoon is going to be put under the strictest scrutiny. American audiences are also suprisingly easily embarassed - it's okay for the Brits to sing the lumberjack song in a comedy, but if an alien is confused by who should and shouldn't wear a dress in a serious cartoon people want to turn red and hide (especially since children and or their girlfriend might be watching). Pile on top of that the fact that Anime visual style is extremely divisive just on its own. Some people see it as elegant, dynamic and fresh. Others say things like "Why do the guys look like chicks and the chicks look like gradeschoolers with boobs? What's with the stupid spiky blue hair, and the huge f*#!ing eyes? Why doesn't anyone have a nose? Why do people sometimes turn into amorphous squirting blobs instead of just having a tantrum? In short (and I apologize this is so long, but I felt the need to rant) for Macross to succeed in the U.S. not only will it require the kind of marketing strategies, social support, and right place at the right zeitgeist kind of luck mentioned earlier, but it would have to be reconstructed for an american market. Do I think it's possible for an Anime movie to simultaneously be edgy, have some depth and make an impact on the american population: under the right circumstances, yes. But it would have to recognize and minimize many of the things that alienate most of the american viewing populace, ratchet up the amount of action while simultaneously slowing it enough to get the audience involved, hone the "moral" of the story into something far more (as much as this shocks me to say about any kind of movie in america) subtly applied. In short, in many ways, it wouldn't be the macross we all know and love. Would I still love to see it remade in this way? Hell yes, I think it would change the face of animation in this country - is it gonna happen? Right after I win that snowball fight with Lucifer.

[bsu legato]

<snip>

Paragraphs are your friend.

[NeoverseOmega]

Like I said, I needed to rant - and I managed to go so long without raging once not once about HG. That deserves a little credit at least

If you would like, next time I'll do it in rhyming iambic pentameter and break it into stanzas.

[Radd]

I've never seen anyone label the Transformers movie as "pretentious", and with good reason. However, my understanding is that the movie did bomb horribly.

As for reviews, the Star Wars movies all almost always recieve unanimously bad reviews, yet they never seem to do too poorly in theatres.

Edited January 21, 2005 by Radd

[Prime]

I've never seen anyone label the Transformers movie as "pretentious", and with good reason. However, my understanding is that the movie did bomb horribly.

As for reviews, the Star Wars movies all almost always recieve unanimously bad reviews, yet they never seem to do too poorly in theatres.

Transformers did bomb in theatres (it made under 6 million in the US), but I know I loved it when I saw it, as did most of my friends. In more recent years most times it has come up people of my generation seem to remember it and the Transformers show fondly (and it actually has a fairly decent rating on the IMDB). Most of the complaints center around the killing off of major characters.

As for Star Wars, critically acclaimed or not, it definitely has a wide appeal and strong fanbase.

[yman1437]

thought I would share this

this thread reminds me of a page I came across some years ago : the box office results DYRL in Hongkong (not US), it was in theater in 1988 apparently.

it was #14 overall among foreign movies, not bad I assumed....actually Nausicaa and Totoro, which were more family/kid oriented, were shown in the same year and were #4 and 5.

Hongkong foreign films box office - 1988

[Radd]

I'm surprised at some of the movies that did worse.

[valk1j]

Macross tops Debbie Does Dallas

Wait that doesn't sound right