Your Views on the Ending of ZERO

[Prime]

The presentation is too fairy tale where it could be more 'reaslistic'.

It seems that is the way Macross is headed in general.

[Zentrandude]

anyone felt that roy was too cold when aries died in his arms?

[Agent ONE]

anyone felt that roy was too cold when aries died in his arms?

Nah.. In war, life is cheap.

[bsu legato]

anyone felt that roy was too cold when aries died in his arms?

Nah.. In war, life is cheap.

No kidding. How many friends do you think Roy lost in the last years of the war? By this point, whats one more?

[Zentrandude]

anyone felt that roy was too cold when aries died in his arms?

Nah.. In war, life is cheap.

No kidding. How many friends do you think Roy lost in the last years of the war? By this point, whats one more?

true but he had more emotion trying to save them. Would be ok he like grumbled "dam I didn't get to tap that in this movie get me a new director"

[eugimon]

anyone felt that roy was too cold when aries died in his arms?

Nah.. In war, life is cheap.

No kidding. How many friends do you think Roy lost in the last years of the war? By this point, whats one more?

true but he had more emotion trying to save them. Would be ok he like grumbled "dam I didn't get to tap that in this movie get me a new director"

I think it's kind of similar to how King David acted when he learned his son was dying... while the child was sick, he was greif stricken, but after the child died, he cleaned up, got dressed and ate some food saying that there was nothing he could do and that he had to move on.

I'm sure Roy felt the same way, while there is hope you try with everything you have, but when you know the ooutcome, you gather yourself for the next fight.

[radman]

At first i was inclined to agree with the atitude of others about the ending acording to the images. But after completing the series, I felt it was a well crafted story with pyhric ending.

- 30 years it takes the UN SPACY to declassift these events about a probe that could have ended it all before Space War One.

- I wonder what has happened to Shin, Sara, Edgar and Mao? Did Edgar and Mao survive Space War One? We all know what happened to Roy.

-And this story is about "humasn coping withcomplex relationship of technology, nature, and life itself.. Kawamori seems to throw in the usual hints of Shinto philosphy.

I just there is more macross stuff on the way.

[Smiley424]

okay, so I finally just finished out Mac0 and here's my take. The story wasn't what I wanted or expected from Macross Zero, so in the end, I found the entire OVA to be okay. It seemed like the entire series was kinda building to a final showdown of Roy vs DD and Shin vs Ivanova, and to have them both be blasted by the AFOS was unexpected, but I feel that it fit in with the way the Mac0 story was presented. In the end I feel that Macross 0 was more about the AFOS, war and peace, nature vs technology. I never got an idea of a good vs evil fight between the UN and Anti-UN forces. In the end the UN won and are the protagonists in SDF Macross, so I think some would jump to the conclusion that the UN was the good guys and the Anti-UN were the bad guys, when the distinction could be more gray, less defined. More of "History is written by the victors".

[eugimon]

Actually, I think Zero is pretty clear that both the Anti-UN and the UN have done horrific things during war.. and even in SDF Macross, the UN isn't really the good guys.. they are shown as arrogant and unwilling to listen to the crew of the SDF about the nature and strength of their enemy.

[Sweekz]

- I wonder what has happened to Shin, Sara, Edgar and Mao? Did Edgar and Mao survive Space War One? We all know what happened to Roy.

Thats what I would like to know

[peter]

The protoculture thought the human race might be able to protect the culture, but it didn't so they moved. Shin and Sara would then act as the first male and first female (adam and eve, Rooy Kanu? and Roy Waka?)

I don't understand how that whole Adam and Eve thing works. When Shin and Sara spit out a couple of kids, who do the kids mate with? Eachother? We all know what happens if they go that route.......anyone remember that X-files episode with roller-pig under the bed?

Edited January 25, 2005 by peter

[doodler7]

so around the time macross zero took place...was the SDF-1 already being built? or nearing completion?

[Radd]

Peter, I imagine inbreeding would become less of a problem as time went on. Their kids split into multiple families. They spit out kids, the kids get together with the kids from the other families and split into even more families, so and and so forth until the line is so completely splintered. Grok?

doodler7, this is probably newbie thread material by now, but to answer your question Zero takes place in September 2008, and the Macross launches in the tv series in February of 2009., so about 5-6 months before Space War I breaks out.

You can find all this information and more at the Macross Compendium:

http://www.anime.net/macross/

The Compendium is the most reliable source of Macross information on the net.

[Final Vegeta]

I don't understand how that whole Adam and Eve thing works.

Since we are talking about a Japanese author, I think we have to go for his cultural roots... Izanagi and Izanami.

FV

Edited January 26, 2005 by Final Vegeta

[peter]

Peter, I imagine inbreeding would become less of a problem as time went on. Their kids split into multiple families. They spit out kids, the kids get together with the kids from the other families and split into even more families, so and and so forth until the line is so completely splintered. Grok?

doodler7, this is probably newbie thread material by now, but to answer your question Zero takes place in September 2008, and the Macross launches in the tv series in February of 2009., so about 5-6 months before Space War I breaks out.

You can find all this information and more at the Macross Compendium:

http://www.anime.net/macross/

The Compendium is the most reliable source of Macross information on the net.

Haha, I guess it would be really crappy if they ended up with only two boys!

Edited January 25, 2005 by peter

[Renato]

I don't understand how that whole Adam and Eve thing works.

Since we are talking about a Japanese author, I think we have to go for its cultural roots... Izanagi and Izanami.

FV

I really doubt Kawamori had even considered Izanagi and Izanami when planning out Macross Zero. In fact, the whole Adam and Eve situation was all made up in OUR imaginations as none of this is explicitly depicted, so let's not go too far into Japanese mythology and cry "this is it!!", because if you go far enough you can tie it all up with like, the Incas, or something.

[eugimon]

To think that a japanese person would draw upon japanese creation mythology in plotting up a story which is basically a creation story of humanity is not so far fetched as you're making it out to be.

The story is very similar... even for someone like me who is unfamiliar with the myth and just read that particular link.. the two make two children first who turn out badly who they abandon (zentran and meltran) and then they go back and start over, but even their new children (one of them humanity) leads to one of their deaths... in his anger he punishes humanity (AFOS), but in doing so more dieties are created (humanity apreading across the stars).

Are there stretches? sure, but many easily apparant similarities.. much more than say some african myth of a monky climbing up the world tree and crapping out land, or some turtle carrying four huge elephants carrying the world.

[Final Vegeta]

I really doubt Kawamori had even considered Izanagi and Izanami when planning out Macross Zero.  In fact, the whole Adam and Eve situation was all made up in OUR imaginations as none of this is explicitly depicted, so let's not go too far into Japanese mythology and cry "this is it!!", because if you go far enough you can tie it all up with like, the Incas, or something.

I was not saying that he chose to do an almost literal retelling of Japanese myths, but the cultural basis is the key in understanding small details that go unnoticed. For instance, in Escaflowne the earth dragon is a lindworm, an oriental type of dragon. The pearl as a source of power for a dragon inspired Dragon Ball. Izanagi and Izanami myth is how Bible was framed in Evangelion, that's why there is a spear.

The Birdman is a name that comes from Eastern Island rituals, even though it doesn't have anything to do with Macross Zero.

FV

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't understand how that whole Adam and Eve thing works. When Shin and Sara spit out a couple of kids, who do the kids mate with? Eachother? We all know what happens if they go that route.......anyone remember that X-files episode with roller-pig under the bed?

haha. Here's an idea: we would undergo a strange process of mutation and spit out mutant chicken eggs and the young would hatch from them. Sara and shin would transform into literal birdpeople and kids would hatch from the eggs, mate with native animals on other planets creating crossbreeds and over time lose thier useless abilities to adapt to the environment they were in. jk

I was only throwing my crazy ideas out there to keep the discussion going. I still think the zentradi micronisation process is kinda mysterious and wierd. Like where do the memories of the person go for example?

The PC were master geneticists and probably became the gods of many other cultures and possibly played god with many native animals on alien planets to evolve them quickly. Given that they must have had scientists of some sort, they would have records of the things they did. If humans and aliens can mate to create human/alien hybrids, then maybe shin and sara were transported to an ancient PC lab which is like the Ark that holds all the various species of alien the pc were studying before thier inevitable fall? (I say "Ark" as in they might have 1 type of every alien animal for another generation to play with, if thier destructive ways get out of hand similar to the reason for noah needing to build one to preserve earth's animals before god flooded the world?)

Anyway the information from all this in the lab, allows Shin and Sara to carry on the work and not only would they have samples of alien dna, but hybrids of one type of alien with another type of alien. Using thier own bodies, combing it with these aliens to create hybrid mutants, allowing a long time for the diseases to spread, they could then become the ancenstors for organisms on other planets. Just a thought. The PC aren't really as alien as we like to think since in DYRL you'll notice that they have the same basic structure to thier houses indicating we might be easily able to decipher thier language, understand thier records, science, and culture if given time. I find that when sara sang her song and all the plants starting coming to life, she had the ability to breath life into things around her. If this is possible on earth how about the stuff in an alien lab? It isn't explained why Hasford's theory believes people could fly and float rocks at will in ancient times (which is why IU want to know is it magic or science? or a bit of both?) so I'm willing to keep an open mind.

Sometimes you can consider destruction as a kind of cleansing (whether it be the zentradi attack on earth which killed life on earth to make way for the SDF1 civilians who had been banished from earth by thier own people, or a natural disaster like a literal flooding) that kills off the unwanted influences in the world. Once people are killing thier own,you could say they are like cancer cells and it is only a matter of time before the whole organism dies. So keeping a few good cells and seperating them from bad ones by trying to kill them may help chances of survival of the good ones to carry on thier life in a peaceful safe area away from war.

This explains my belief that Sara is figure in the myth who represents the first female while shin is the first male who is trying to fly home to his wife whom is 'across the ocean' and promises to make an apearance at the end when war is coming and the stars are crumbling. You can liken this 'symbolic figure' thing to be similar to how people try to place real current day people as the possible literal figures mentioned in ancient prophecies who've made thier appearance in the world. Eg Hitler being thought of as an antichrist.

In the case of SDF Macross for example, you could say that Hikaru is the literal "Little White Dragon" in minmay's song, saving the world from the giants attacking the innocent. Of course the real hikaru is far from the herioc hollywood stereotype but he takes on that quality when viewed from afar. His initial insignificance in the series takes on more significance in the end when he comes to the rescue and plays the 'messiah whose duty is saving and protecting people'. In the start of the series you see he was pretty antiwar and apathetic towards war, but in the end he becomes pro-defender, out to help the culture survive rather than competing against it because it gets in the way of him having minmay to himself. Now given what he does you could say he is the character in little white dragon. But only symbolically.

Edited January 26, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[kazuo]

Wow, so much intelligent debate on what is essentially a lame-ass series with a equally lame-ass ending.

Sorry kids, I just finished watching the last episode of Zero, and man, does it ever suck the big one...

I hate a lot of things about Zero.

- the animation

- the music

- the characters

- the storyline (please, PLEASE stop ruining the story with idiocy like this and M7)

- all of the stupid fantasy/downright ridiculous elements

- introducing characters who are left as loose threads (because its a prequel.. and if they DONT die.. its like wtf. same thing that annoyed me about Gundam 08th Ms Team)

I'll sum up my thoughts with what my friend felt was the most amusing part of my "Macross Zero sucks" chat rant with him:

[19:03] kazuo: oh my gawd

[19:03] kazuo: its getting worse

[19:03] kazuo: now the native peoples have like telekinetic powers or some poo

[19:03] kazuo: and they can pull a great gazoo and float next to you in spirit form and talk to you

[19:03] kazuo: this is queer

[19:03] kazuo: this isnt Macross

[19:03] kazuo: wtf

When, oh when will there be a Macross series worth watching? This is worse than Gundam sequels!!

And, finally:

[19:10] kazuo: oh wait

[19:10] kazuo: WAIT

[19:10] kazuo: possible saving grace

[19:10] kazuo: its a MONSTER

[19:10] kazuo: !!!!11oneone! And I think it has... hannou heiki!!!

[19:14] kazuo: yaaay! REACTION WEAPON ASSAULT! +1,000,000,000 pts!!!!

[19:14] kazuo: But that still leaves zero with -84357974305435839709374 points, which means it licks balls.

Say whatever you want. Don't let your fanboy-ish tendencies blind you to the fact that this show is terrible.

I love Macross just as much as the other guy, but this show should be relegated to the trash hea--er, alternate universe that Macross II resides in (and M7 SHOULD reside in)

peace out

[striderhiryu]

let's just hope if they make a movie version they correct the ending and sell it as a special edition with the entire cast asking for our forgivness.... j/k.

[Ed.Coli]

Say whatever you want. Don't let your fanboy-ish tendencies blind you to the fact that this show is terrible.

So by this you mean:

Say whatever you want; just remember in the end that your opinion is worthless and I am God.

Yeah, so much for your "expertly veiled" insult.

Me? I was okay with the ending; it just needed more closure.

[kazuo]

So by this you mean:

Say whatever you want; just remember in the end that your opinion is worthless and I am God.

Yeah, so much for your "expertly veiled" insult.

Me? I was okay with the ending; it just needed more closure.

Wrong.

What I am saying is, don't praise it is just because it's a new Macross series.

I know a lot of people, Macross fans in particular, who went on and on about how great Zero was and how great it was going to be before it even came out... wow, such high praise coming after seeing a 1 minute preview clip with like very little footage of the show.

Then it comes out and its anything BUT great.

I believe much of the hoopla was simply based on the fact that the "Macross" name was attached to it.

Such a poorly done show, but really really awesome aerial combat sequences.

Too bad the story is laughable and an insult to the TV series. (tori no hito? ughh)

Kawamori seems to be doing his best impression of George Lucas when it comes to sequels...

Maybe it's time to let Tomino take a crack at it? lol

[Lestat]

How can you decide that this isn't macross. I think Kawamori decides that, since it's his creation. Did you ever think that perhaps you missed the message of every single macross series there is? Sure, things have taken a bit of a strange turn, but I think the problem that most people have with the later macross series is that you're all just so resistant to change.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Macross Zero. I think it fits in perfectly with the theme of past macross series. And yes, I have seen and liked Macross 7. I hated it for about 10 episodes, but then let myself go and found I enjoyed it, despite the spirita strangeness.

Macross Zero is about showing the power and force that exists behind the scenes in the original TV series, movie and macross plus.

Kawamori is evolving the story, coming full circle. He shows us HOW it is that a single song can turn the tide of a war. Macross 7 shows how music affects people in the macross universe, and Macross Zero explains how that kind of talent and power came into the human race. Macross is not just about mecha. If that's what you think, you've totally missed the point.

Just accept it for what it is, and stop whinging about it because it's not what YOU want. Macross 7 and Macross Zero ARE. Deal with it.

Kawamori has always been a good director in my opinion because he goes against the grain. He tells the story he wants to tell, not what other people want to hear. And that's the way it should be. Macross is his creation, and his art. Who are we to tell him how to make it?!

[Ed.Coli]

Wrong.

What I am saying is, don't praise it is just because it's a new Macross series.

I'm not praising it because it's a new Macross series, I'm praising it because, in my opinion, what it does well, it does very well, and what it doesn't (like the ending), well, it doesn't. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean your opinion is final.

Then it comes out and its anything BUT great.

To you. I thought it was okay.

[Chowser]

all i can say so far from watching the hk boots with engrish subs is,

wtf???? is going on.

got a copy of 1-5 with decent english subs, i will probably get to that tomorrow on my last sick day from work next to impossible trying to install a furnace and two water tanks when one is on crutches. took forever. had to call for help...

I'll say this, I like the mech designs. story-wise...

[Keith]

The HK's weren't that bad. Aside from some name mix-ups, and a complete mess made of the meeting about the AFOS in the first episode, the subtitles weren't too bad at all.

[Radd]

I rather liked Zero, and many of the people in my weekly anime group think it's the best Macross to date. Then again, they weren't keen on the original series, and thought Plus was alright at best.

The 2D animation isn't superb, but it's about or better than much of the 2D animation in Plus. I dislike the drawing style for both OVAs, but I still can't fault the quality. The CG is done rather well, for CG. I think the show would have looked much better if they'd put the money towards well animated 2D Valkyries, but hey, it was still by no means as craptastic as many other anime attempts to do CG mecha.

I thought the ending was rather rushed, episode 5 looked like two, possibly even three episodes' worth of material crammed into a single episode.

I thought the designs, the story, and the characters all worked well as a Macross prequel. There were no big contradictions to the timeline, none in fact, that I could see.

I did not like the music at first, but it has grown on me quite a bit, and now some of the music ranks among my favourites.

These are simply my opinions, though.

[Final Vegeta]

- introducing characters who are left as loose threads (because its a prequel.. and if they DONT die..

And that would be what? Realistic? Deep? Macross?

I would have understood if someone said those minor characters didn't have their own story arc or their own share of development, but protesting because they didn't die at the end of the story is ridiculous, and I think that makes anime fans look bad.

Say whatever you want. Don't let your fanboy-ish tendencies blind you to the fact that this show is terrible.

But so are most of anime. I never watch them for the story. I think it has to do with budget limitation and typical 20" format, and also Japanese are istinctively formulaic. I watch Kawamori for his sense of poetry and his weltanschauung. Things like the animals Kawamori chose to portray man's will to fly.

Macross Zero could have been better, but I guess Kawamori was hampered by technical and time costraints. I think the original final episode was supposed to be a bit different, although that ending was chosen from the beginning.

To judge Macross Zero however I think we at least should have read some

guide to good scriptwriting.

FV

[Mr March]

Finally got around to watching the final episode of Macross Zero today.

Overall, Macross Zero was mediocre. The ending was forced, and far too much emphasis was placed upon mise en scene to properly close all the many threads created in the plot. While the messages of Macross (love, music, culture) did climax as in many other Macross stories, the concepts were too aloof. Combined with the lack of a grounded finale, the plot threads ultimately hurt what the story was trying to convey.

Analyzing the character arcs, in the case of the two antagonists and Aries, their deaths were handled with little or no consideration for an overall development. The result is a flat character with a flat death, thus the character shouldn't have been in the story to begin with. Especially in the case of Aries, her purpose in the overall story of Macross Zero is extraneous. If I were an editor, she never would have made it past the cutting room.

Shin and Sara's relationship is too underdeveloped to justify the awesome depth of emotion needed for the final act of the story. Like an oft used Hollywood cliche, the two spend their scenes fighting and that's how the audience is supposed to know they love each other. An initial hostile relationship between characters only works if the writer can then create circumstances and revelations in which both characters realize the error of preconceptions. Little of such character development was present in Macross Zero, and certainly not to any significant degree that would make the final relationship between Shin and Sara beleivable.

As a standalone story, Macross Zero leaves far too much open to question to be complete or satisfying. The AFOS was never sufficiently explained, Shin and Sara's fate is left hanging, the powers Sara and Mao display are never sufficiently explained, et cetera. Instead, Macross fans are left to engage in supposition about all these questions, often (especially reading this thread) using plot elements and backstory from other Macross animes or tertiary published materials to speculate upon which of those said elements more properly fills all of Zero's gaps. This is both dissappointing and ironic, especially given how much of the beginning script was devoted to backstory and to set up a distinct narrative for the Macross Zero story.

IMO, Macross Zero lacks heart and a solid story. While I didn't hate Macross Zero, I didn't find it particularly fulfilling. Looks like SDF Macross and Macross Plus still remain the better productions of the franchise.

Edited February 28, 2005 by Mr March

[Gabriel]

I agree with most of the previous post.

While the ending made "sense" to me in the way that I could guess what was happening and why, the whole spirita-magic-whatever thing was really overdone.

Abstract fantasy elements rarely work when combined with a reality-based war story, which is basically what Macross is, or at least was.

Overall the series was pretty decent for the mecha and battles, but the character development? Ugh. Roy is always the same cocky fighter jock, Shin is always the "little boy" struggling to keep up, Nora and DD are always the same ruthless antagonists who you know are going to meet a nasty end, Aries is always the old love interest fated to die in Roy's arms, ect.

Here's a general rule of thumb I use as a writer: when you're developing a sci-fi war story and your aircraft carriers start to fly and people start teleporting around and moving fighters with their minds, its time to think about packing up and moving to a different genre.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Gabriel

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Shin and Sara's relationship is too underdeveloped to justify the awesome depth of emotion needed for the final act of the story. Like an oft used Hollywood cliche, the two spend their scenes fighting and that's how the audience is supposed to know they love each other. An initial hostile relationship between characters only works if the writer can then create circumstances and revelations in which both characters realize the error of preconceptions. Little of such character development was present in Macross Zero, and certainly not to any significant degree that would make the final relationship between Shin and Sara beleivable.

I thought Shin was getting close to knowing and sympathising with Sara when he discovered her secret and he started believing her myths when no one else would. She was very lonely imo because nobody took her seriously enough including her own sister Mao who resented the fact she was trying to force the myths down her throat when all she wanted to do was live in the cities and learn about all the nice things like "machines that run on two sticks". I felt sorry for her seeing that over time newer generations would shun her stories and simple life in favour of adopting a more convenient life in cities.

Another thing: Sara's guilt about failing the test her dad set her up with was baggage she kept her whole life and Shin helped her to relax about failure. They both were kind of failures in some sense: Shin's inability to trust anyone because he has his guard up all the time - yet unable to open up his feelings enough in a close combat duel with roy and that butch chick. And Sara's inability to accept responsibility for her mistakes and move on. (the fate of the world rested on her following orders, and you'll notice this in the way she applies strict rules onto others despite her own failing) But both of them fear failure. And fear getting in the way of true feelings stunts ability. Your sparring partner feeds off it and they can feel your moves and see your mind.

There was a good reolution to this where it shows Shin shedding the weapons as his way of winning because he could sense the true feelings of sara which you could say he was sparring against. His memories of dead parents was what made him put up so much emotional defenses, making him easy to manipulate and turn fear into hate. Being able to sense a person's feelings brings you 1 step closer to truth; and knowing that person, which is what the butch chic was trying to teach shin. The AFOS head piece senses this emotion of the people using it, and this machine demonstrates in a magnified form how easy it is for people to become self destructive when they don't be true to thier feelings and instead allowing themself to become some emotionless defensive robot that follows a predictable pattern of rigid behaviour. (almost leading to the end of the world I might add)

I really think Shin and Sara had a lot in common that brings them close together to justify the two being intimate and wanting to risk thier lives for each other, similar to Hikaru and Misa who are from two different backgrounds (one is a reckless stunt pilot, the other a strict bossy beyatch who can't relax in her dealing with others) but at the same time, despite being from those different backgrounds or worlds, still having things in common that brings them close together. (they are both partnerless and miserable)

Its just that this time Shin was from a technical background (the planes let him and roy fly, plus these two had an inability to let go of the past and haven't opened up thier hearts and be true to thier feelings) while Sara is from a nature background (where faith and magick and ancient knowledge give her the ability to levitate, also she's not letting herself let go of past mistakes). Two different backgrounds, while still having something in common = intimacy, which leads to love thus justifiying actions.

I was just watching mac+ the other day and in terms of emotional depth I felt this was about equal to macross zero. Actually I felt barely any symthpathy for myung when I saw macross plus because in general she came off as way too depressed about nothing. (almost annoyingly so) It wasn't clear why we should really care for myung at all save for a tiny little suggestion that she may have been hurt by something Dyson did 7 years ago. We aren't given anymore information than that. Compare this to Macross Zero's Sara: she is way more easy to feel sympathy for because she explains her problems and we see what she is about, seeing how her lonliness matches well with shin's lonliness. (like hikaru's and misa's lonliness leading to thier intimacy)

Edited March 1, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gaijin]

After watching whole thing....I decided I really didn't care for it much. Just couldn't get really into it at all. And I liked Arjuna even.

[twich]

Just got the 5th DVD from Kevin at Valkyrie-Exchange(Thanks) and the little bit at the end with the voice actors/actresses...I am trying to figure out who they are....from left to right, here is what I think.

Aries, Moa, Sara, Shin but I could be wrong considering it is not in good sound quality that the rest of the disk is. Judging from the voices, that is my guess. Also, what are they talking about? Their experience doing the voices for MAcross Zero?

Well, let me know what you think.

Twich

[ewilen]

Some info on that here in Renato's post: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...80entry214886 (look for "Extra Feature")

I think that Bandai may also have a web site devoted to the OAV, which may have a section showing the VA's, so if you run the whole thing through a translator you might figure out who is who.