The MW Automotive Thread

[JKeats]

Stupid rich kids...  I'm on the fence about buying an 2006 Acura RSX Type-S.  Other than the notorious 3rd gear, anybody have any comments/thoughts about the car?

348859[/snapback]

Probably best of the "pocket rocket" car genre. The SI is a repinned rebodied RSX with a detuned ECU. I would say go for the RSX, my friend just sold his, but it's an all around decent car for the price... unless you're tall. If you're tall (i'm 6'2") the offset of the sunroof brings the roof down to clip your hair, and if you hit a bump, you can guarantee you'll feel it. Other than that, it's pretty comfortable, i wasn't banging my knee into the dash or steering wheel changing gears (unlike the SI) so take it for a test drive and see if you like the feel of the car. Other comparables would be the tC (it's a bit sluggish IMO) the cobalt SS (might as well get a saturn), and even the Mini S (not my taste). If you're willing to go the four door route, then look into the SRT-4, Mazda6, and the Ion Redline (just expect to be laughed at).

348865[/snapback]

I'm 6'0" even so it might not be that bad. I'm going to go down to the dealership today or tomorrow to see how the car feels but from what I've heard, seen and read, the car seems tip-top. I appreciate it, thanks for the comments Emajn.

[emajnthis]

I'm 6'0" even so it might not be that bad.  I'm going to go down to the dealership today or tomorrow to see how the car feels but from what I've heard, seen and read, the car seems tip-top.  I appreciate it, thanks for the comments Emajn.

348870[/snapback]

Yeh, no problem. I always get asked by my wife's friends if the RSX is good, and for it's intended purpose, it definitely delivers flawlessly. It's cute (but in a manly kinda way), compact, fast enough to zip around in traffic, comparably priced, well equipped, fits two passengers comfortably and three fairly comfortably, and has a college student sized trunk. You'll also be very satisfied with how fluid the manual transmission feels. The throw is decently short, and it's very easy to navigate your way through the gears.

Edited December 1, 2005 by emajnthis

[areaseven]

Right.  Like the one guy who picked up a new Murcielago, then drove it off of the dealership and then crashed it immediately.  Picture states that he went right back into the dealership and ordered another one...

348822[/snapback]

Are you sure it was a Murcielago? I thought it was an AMG. And the owner was some Sheik in the Middle East.

At least he's still around. Wrecked Exotics has already recorded one fatality in an Enzo Ferrari and another in a Porsche Carrera GT.

[Seven]

Stupid rich kids...  I'm on the fence about buying an 2006 Acura RSX Type-S.  Other than the notorious 3rd gear, anybody have any comments/thoughts about the car?

348859[/snapback]

I didn't think I would be impressed by this car at all, but after driving around one for a month, I loved it. The stick is awesome, steering is very communicative, and handling is great. The interior is among the best out there. I still long for this car even though I have a 2005 BMW 5 series for the luxury and a 93 RX7 for the fun. The engine, while being nowhere near as powerful as my RX7, still feels peppy and gets the job done. I love the sound especially when you get into the upper RPMs. If I had the money, I'd buy one now for a daily driver.

[emajnthis]

another car i forgot to mention is the Celica... i personally have a particular distaste towards that car, but effectively it's a fair comparison. Toyota stopped making it, so you can find them second hand pretty cheap, but i would also take that as a fair warning for the car's reputation.

[JKeats]

Stupid rich kids...  I'm on the fence about buying an 2006 Acura RSX Type-S.  Other than the notorious 3rd gear, anybody have any comments/thoughts about the car?

348859[/snapback]

I didn't think I would be impressed by this car at all, but after driving around one for a month, I loved it. The stick is awesome, steering is very communicative, and handling is great. The interior is among the best out there. I still long for this car even though I have a 2005 BMW 5 series for the luxury and a 93 RX7 for the fun. The engine, while being nowhere near as powerful as my RX7, still feels peppy and gets the job done. I love the sound especially when you get into the upper RPMs. If I had the money, I'd buy one now for a daily driver.

348892[/snapback]

Very good to know. My POS 2000 Honda Accord Coupe finally gave out on me a few days ago (on the 405, morning rush hour, good times). I hated that car with a passion so I'm glad it's dead and I've had my eye out for a smaller, sportier car for a while now. Thanks for the comments!

[JKeats]

another car i forgot to mention is the Celica... i personally have a particular distaste towards that car, but effectively it's a fair comparison.  Toyota stopped making it, so you can find them second hand pretty cheap, but i would also take that as a fair warning for the car's reputation.

348896[/snapback]

I've been driving second-hand cars my whole life so it's time to buy "new" for once.

[areaseven]

Very good to know.  My POS 2000 Honda Accord Coupe finally gave out on me a few days ago (on the 405, morning rush hour, good times).  I hated that car with a passion so I'm glad it's dead and I've had my eye out for a smaller, sportier car for a while now.  Thanks for the comments! 

348897[/snapback]

Only five years old and it broke down? Very uncommon for Hondas to do that (unless the previous owner drove it to the ground). Before moving to a 2005 Ford Mustang V6, I had a 1999 Honda Civic HX Coupe that had zero mechanical problems. While it was a perfect daily driver, it really wasn't something I'd keep forever. I don't want to be 30 and still drive a high school student's car. I also don't want to end up being a stereotypical Asian who drives a Japanese econocar. Besides, the Civic was horrible going uphill.

[areaseven]

another car i forgot to mention is the Celica... i personally have a particular distaste towards that car, but effectively it's a fair comparison.  Toyota stopped making it, so you can find them second hand pretty cheap, but i would also take that as a fair warning for the car's reputation.

348896[/snapback]

The last great Celicas were rear-wheel drive, and that was back in 1984. As a matter of fact, my cousin-in-law still owns her 1983 Celica GT, and it still runs after over 400,000 miles. It could use a major overhaul, though.

[Lightning]

Very good to know.  My POS 2000 Honda Accord Coupe finally gave out on me a few days ago (on the 405, morning rush hour, good times).  I hated that car with a passion so I'm glad it's dead and I've had my eye out for a smaller, sportier car for a while now.  Thanks for the comments! 

348897[/snapback]

Only five years old and it broke down? Very uncommon for Hondas to do that (unless the previous owner drove it to the ground). Before moving to a 2005 Ford Mustang V6, I had a 1999 Honda Civic HX Coupe that had zero mechanical problems. While it was a perfect daily driver, it really wasn't something I'd keep forever. I don't want to be 30 and still drive a high school student's car. I also don't want to end up being a stereotypical Asian who drives a Japanese econocar. Besides, the Civic was horrible going uphill.

348901[/snapback]

here's ya a good one: I just bought a beat-up '88 Civic (w/a 5-speed, thank god for that) with over 318,000 miles on it, it smokes, sometimes it loses compression and dies at a stoplight, but it ALWAYS fires right back up, and if I keep it long enough to rebuild the engine, it might last another 300,000. Not a bad car for 300 bucks, eh?

anyhow, on the buying a new car part of the topic, I'd say go for the SRT-4, you will have plenty of headroom (I'm 6'0 and have about another 4-5 inches of headroom), but the bad part is: the Neon's ceased production at the end of September, however, your local Dodge dealer should have one.

[emajnthis]

another car i forgot to mention is the Celica... i personally have a particular distaste towards that car, but effectively it's a fair comparison.  Toyota stopped making it, so you can find them second hand pretty cheap, but i would also take that as a fair warning for the car's reputation.

348896[/snapback]

The last great Celicas were rear-wheel drive, and that was back in 1984. As a matter of fact, my cousin-in-law still owns her 1983 Celica GT, and it still runs after over 400,000 miles. It could use a major overhaul, though.

348902[/snapback]

Actually the last great Celica's were in Europe/Japan and used in the WRC. The "baby Supra" body style of the 90's had a special model in Japan and Europe called the GT-four, which was 2.0 liter Turbo AWD. This was also a project car in my head for awhile as it's very easy to get a 90's Celica for cheap, and I can easily get a GT-Four front clip from Japan for 2grand or less. But, alas, money and children don't work hand in hand... unless the money is going from my hand to theirs.

[emajnthis]

here's ya a good one: I just bought a beat-up '88 Civic (w/a 5-speed, thank god for that) with over 318,000 miles on it, it smokes, sometimes it loses compression and dies at a stoplight, but it ALWAYS fires right back up, and if I keep it long enough to rebuild the engine, it might last another 300,000.  Not a bad car for 300 bucks, eh?

anyhow, on the buying a new car part of the topic, I'd say go for the SRT-4, you will have plenty of headroom (I'm 6'0 and have about another 4-5 inches of headroom), but the bad part is: the Neon's ceased production at the end of September, however, your local Dodge dealer should have one.

348903[/snapback]

SRT-4's are great, but have horrible torque steer, and have awful looking interiors. I don't think the purpose of him buying the RSX is to race people light to light, it's more of a comfortable two door daily driver. Where as the SRT-4 is for the more performance minded, could give a Sh!t less what you're sitting in, race you to the next light driver.

[Seven]

I've never been able to look at the SRT4 as nothing more than a hopped up Neon. Sure it might be quick, but damn, it still looks like a Neon. It's the same old thing where guys would buy Dodge Omnis and with a few mods make that thing go like a bat out of hell, but goddamn if it still isn't ugly and falling apart at the seams.

[JKeats]

Just took a long lunch and went to test-drive the RSX. I really like it. Excellent pick-up, ultra-smooth manual and a roomy-enough interior. I have a pretty good feeling about the car and like Emajn said, it seems perfect for a daily driver.

The other cars I was looking at were the Civic Si, which I couldn't stand, and the 06 WRX STi, which is just too much muscle for a daily drive (and pricier than the RSX).

As for my crap Accord, that thing used to belong to my sister and I donated my 95 Accord in exchange for her 2000. She traded in my 95 towards a new Volvo SUV, so I thought it was a fair trade. But geez, I don't know what she did with it but two months after taking it over, the tranny went out (it was an 4 cyl. automatic) and then I guess it was leaking oil without me knowing (and I swear I checked that thing every other day) so on my way to work a few days ago, it just died on me. I just spent $1500 for a new tranny so I wasn't about to blow even more on a new engine.

[JKeats]

Very good to know.  My POS 2000 Honda Accord Coupe finally gave out on me a few days ago (on the 405, morning rush hour, good times).  I hated that car with a passion so I'm glad it's dead and I've had my eye out for a smaller, sportier car for a while now.  Thanks for the comments! 

348897[/snapback]

Only five years old and it broke down? Very uncommon for Hondas to do that (unless the previous owner drove it to the ground). Before moving to a 2005 Ford Mustang V6, I had a 1999 Honda Civic HX Coupe that had zero mechanical problems. While it was a perfect daily driver, it really wasn't something I'd keep forever. I don't want to be 30 and still drive a high school student's car. I also don't want to end up being a stereotypical Asian who drives a Japanese econocar. Besides, the Civic was horrible going uphill.

348901[/snapback]

Yeah, I was surprised too but I guess when you have a crazy, young asian girl driver beat the thing up for a few years, the reliability factor pretty much flies out the window. Before the Coupe, I drove a 95 Accord that I bought used and that thing was tough. It got me through high school and college and it was running like a champ when I gave it up.

[areaseven]

Yeah, I was surprised too but I guess when you have a crazy, young asian girl driver beat the thing up for a few years, the reliability factor pretty much flies out the window.

348949[/snapback]

Dude, that shouldn't even be an excuse unless she raced someone hard. Hondas are practically built for "crazy Asian drivers." If it were a Focus or a Neon, that's understandable. But a Honda? She'd have to do something worse than beat the thing up.

[yellowlightman]

Yeah, I was surprised too but I guess when you have a crazy, young asian girl driver beat the thing up for a few years, the reliability factor pretty much flies out the window.

348949[/snapback]

Dude, that shouldn't even be an excuse unless she raced someone hard. Hondas are practically built for "crazy Asian drivers." If it were a Focus or a Neon, that's understandable. But a Honda? She'd have to do something worse than beat the thing up.

348985[/snapback]

Short of totally neglecting it and being unecessarily abusive (N-drops?) there's no way a 5 year old Honda would crap out.

[Beltane70]

How many miles did this Accord have on it?

I have a 1996 Nissan Sentra that just hit 200,000 miles. Despite the fact that I drive it fairly hard, it still has the OEM clutch.

[Poonman]

Anyway, to add something constructive to this thread, I sold This baby for This new one.  I know a lot dig on the classic and it was a great car but I can't put car seats in the damned thing!

jeebus christ.. you a millionare or something? X3 and an S4? last I checked the S was going for $60k+ and the RS4 was going for about $20k on top of that..

glad to see someone else on the forum has an audi though. i've got a lowly A4 and kinda like it... VAG cars are about as unreliable as they come and i've had a ton of problems with my A4 but you've got a brand new car so you should be fine.. just don't keep it after the lease or the warranty runs out

Audi's are great alternatives to snobby beemers.. little more "low key" but just as nice. if you like AWD more than RWD the S4 is just as good as an M3.. the RS4 being even better IMHO.

enjoy your new car- just get rid of that nasty front plate and get a Euro frame!

next you'll need e-code headlights to get rid of those orange corners and some RS4 parts... the modding never ends..

love those alcantara seats too.. glad to see they still put that stuff in the S4's. the fine subtlies of the european sports car is something these ricer kids will never know.. you should get an RS4 wheel too... same one as the Gallardo. track down some of the carbon trim too.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Poonman

[emajnthis]

It's good to know the RSX was a good drive for you JKeats, I love the new STI personally (looks fugly in pictures but awesome in person) but it is a bit over the top and pricey.

German cars have a very subtle luxury that really leaves you satisfied, but in the past 5 or so years, their reliability has hit the bottom (about the same time they started implimenting complex electronics). It used to be that a Mercedes/BMW/VW would last literally forever and then one day the whole car just fell apart.

Now the cars just slowly die piece by piece and spend more time at the shop than on the roads. I noticed that they're trying to build up their reliability standards again by going the Historical German route and provide more engineering and less electronics, which is why the new BMW's work wonderfully... well the navigation still sucks, but everything else works great. Mercedes and VW are on a roller coaster of reliability depending on which model you get. One thing is for sure though, as long as you stick to the more sporty or race inspired German cars, then you're alright. (BMW M, Audi S;RS, Merc AMG)

[Stamen0083]

Ok, this is a question for the auto modelers here.

Where would I go to look for lists of car models representing older, classic european cars.

I have been into aero modeling for awhile, and know how to get just about anything that flew...but with automobiles I have a hard time finding anything that isn't a musclecar or a rice rocket.

To hint at what I am looking for, at the moment I am smiten with the Alfa Romeo 8C, and the Aston Martin C-type.

Please help me...I don't know where to look.

348765[/snapback]

Old cars are pretty much a niche market, so you'll have to look to the resin kit makers. Most modern (all?) plastic model manufacturers focus mostly on the new stuff.

[JKeats]

Yeah, I was surprised too but I guess when you have a crazy, young asian girl driver beat the thing up for a few years, the reliability factor pretty much flies out the window.

348949[/snapback]

Dude, that shouldn't even be an excuse unless she raced someone hard. Hondas are practically built for "crazy Asian drivers." If it were a Focus or a Neon, that's understandable. But a Honda? She'd have to do something worse than beat the thing up.

348985[/snapback]

Short of totally neglecting it and being unecessarily abusive (N-drops?) there's no way a 5 year old Honda would crap out.

348993[/snapback]

Actually, I have no idea what kind of abuse she put that thing through. I just know that when it came into my hands, it had transmission trouble and then the engine crapped out this past week. I've asked around and it turns out that a few people that I know who had the same model/year had transmission problems as well. Shrug.

[fearyaks]

Anyway, to add something constructive to this thread, I sold This baby for This new one.  I know a lot dig on the classic and it was a great car but I can't put car seats in the damned thing!

jeebus christ.. you a millionare or something? X3 and an S4? last I checked the S was going for $60k+ and the RS4 was going for about $20k on top of that..

glad to see someone else on the forum has an audi though. i've got a lowly A4 and kinda like it... VAG cars are about as unreliable as they come and i've had a ton of problems with my A4 but you've got a brand new car so you should be fine.. just don't keep it after the lease or the warranty runs out

Audi's are great alternatives to snobby beemers.. little more "low key" but just as nice. if you like AWD more than RWD the S4 is just as good as an M3.. the RS4 being even better IMHO.

enjoy your new car- just get rid of that nasty front plate and get a Euro frame!

next you'll need e-code headlights to get rid of those orange corners and some RS4 parts... the modding never ends..

love those alcantara seats too.. glad to see they still put that stuff in the S4's. the fine subtlies of the european sports car is something these ricer kids will never know.. you should get an RS4 wheel too... same one as the Gallardo. track down some of the carbon trim too.

Well, I got the S4 for 54 before taxes and titles. I'd have loved to go for an RS4 but it won't be out for a little bit and it's out of my price range. The A4 is a good car and (from what I've heard) they have ironed out a bit of the reliability issues.... what year is yours? I was told that Audi is going to start offering an extended warranty next year so I'll probably buy that when they offer it. I don't expect to get a new car after this (unless this one is a total lemon).

I thought about the 5 series but the are a bit too 'snobby' for me... thankfully the X3 is a little more subtle. I do hate how MB and BMW have horrible interfaces. I'm not down with the iDrive and good grief, our X3 seems like a dinosaur compared to the S4 ( interior wise ).

I'm thinking of ordering the front-filler piece and throwing on our X3's Euro-delivery plates on the front. Though in CA that might be a good excuse for the police to harass me.

Thinking about it, I should have gotten an S4 Avant instead of the X3 (for the wife). Such is life and no real complaints (as the X3 is a good rig too).

[yellowlightman]

Might also want to look at the GTO. They're not too expensive (and are selling poorly enough that people get pretty good deals on them), and a whole lot cooler than the RSX or SRT-4. Boring on the outside (but beats the too-tall bubbly RSX or Neon-looking SRT-4) but the interior is nice, and FWD cars are just boring...

[areaseven]

Might also want to look at the GTO. They're not too expensive (and are selling poorly enough that people get pretty good deals on them), and a whole lot cooler than the RSX or SRT-4. Boring on the outside (but beats the too-tall bubbly RSX or Neon-looking SRT-4) but the interior is nice, and FWD cars are just boring...

349227[/snapback]

Yeah, but while it's selling for under $30 grand, the GTO ain't cheap to gas up or insure.

[myk]

I like the new GTO, including its appearance. Those who passionately protest its looks and claim that this dishonors the original are retro-freaks that want steel bodies, hoodscopes, judge emblems, carburetors, drum brakes and probably 15 inch wheels mounted with non-radial tires on them.

The purists need to accept that this isn't '64, and that the GTO/Monaro's current shape is also due to aerodynamics; something that the original and even my beloved '69 Charger had nothing of...

As for gas and insurance, hey, you gotta' love what you drive so I say it's worth it if you can spring for it; you can't go wrong with a 350 to 400 horsepower car...

[Phyrox]

I like the new GTO, including its appearance.  Those who passionately protest its looks and claim that this dishonors the original are retro-freaks that want steel bodies, hoodscopes, judge emblems, carburetors, drum brakes and probably 15 inch wheels mounted with non-radial tires on them. 

The purists need to accept that this isn't '64, and that the GTO/Monaro's current shape is also due to aerodynamics; something that the original and even my beloved '69 Charger had nothing of...

As for gas and insurance, hey, you gotta' love what you drive so I say it's worth it if you can spring for it; you can't go wrong with a 350 to 400 horsepower car...

349281[/snapback]

Quite right.

Those same "purists" also seem to forget that the original '64 GTO was a pretty mundane-looking car. It is only nostalgia that argues otherwise. GTOs didn't really look like musclecars until 66. Even then it isn't too aggresive. You have to wait until, what...68 before it starts to look like something other than a regular people-mover with a special package.

edit: although, I should add, I am probably as much a "retro-freak" as anyone.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Phyrox

[myk]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong-NOTHING on this planet will ever take the place of my '69 Charger, so it's not as if I'm against old cars or being retro, but c'mon...Older cars are just that-older cars. The new Charger, the new GTO and the new........well, I was going to mention an Asian brand car with a resurrected name but I can't think of one....will always run rings around their 40 year old predecessors...

[emajnthis]

The only reason i'm not a fan of the GTO is the fact that it looks like a Cavalier on steroids, not so much that it doesn't "honor Heritage". GM just took the Australian Vauxhall Monaro and rebadged it as the GTO, which to me just seems lazy. If GM had actually designed a car with the GTO in mind as the target, then i would bring a bit more credibility to its rebirth.

As for performance, the car does wonderfully. The power feels a bit sluggish, but definitely there. The interior has a certain quality, but still sub-par compared to cars in its comparable market. I still say go for the RSX and save a few grand at the dealership, the pumps, and the insurance.

Edited December 3, 2005 by emajnthis

[pfunk]

The only reason i'm not a fan of the GTO is the fact that it looks like a Cavalier on steroids, not so much that it doesn't "honor Heritage".  GM just took the Australian Vauxhall Monaro and rebadged it as the GTO, which to me just seems lazy.  If GM had actually designed a car with the GTO in mind as the target, then i would bring a bit more credibility to its rebirth.

As for performance, the car does wonderfully.  The power feels a bit sluggish, but definitely there.  The interior has a certain quality, but still sub-par compared to cars in its comparable market.  I still say go for the RSX and save a few grand at the dealership, the pumps, and the insurance.

349378[/snapback]

even the RSX-s would get spanked by a GTO, I think for the driving experience and performance, the GTO would be a better buy, point A-B dailly driver, the RSX would be the way to go

[glane21]

It's good to know the RSX was a good drive for you JKeats, I love the new STI personally (looks fugly in pictures but awesome in person) but it is a bit over the top and pricey.

German cars have a very subtle luxury that really leaves you satisfied, but in the past 5 or so years, their reliability has hit the bottom (about the same time they started implimenting complex electronics).  It used to be that a Mercedes/BMW/VW would last literally forever and then one day the whole car just fell apart. 

Now the cars just slowly die piece by piece and spend more time at the shop than on the roads.  I noticed that they're trying to build up their reliability standards again by going the Historical German route and provide more engineering and less electronics, which is why the new BMW's work wonderfully... well the navigation still sucks, but everything else works great.  Mercedes and VW are on a roller coaster of reliability depending on which model you get.  One thing is for sure though, as long as you stick to the more sporty or race inspired German cars, then you're alright. (BMW M, Audi S;RS, Merc AMG)

349134[/snapback]

The problem VWs appear to be the ones built in Mexico, like the Jetta.

[emajnthis]

The only reason i'm not a fan of the GTO is the fact that it looks like a Cavalier on steroids, not so much that it doesn't "honor Heritage".  GM just took the Australian Vauxhall Monaro and rebadged it as the GTO, which to me just seems lazy.  If GM had actually designed a car with the GTO in mind as the target, then i would bring a bit more credibility to its rebirth.

As for performance, the car does wonderfully.  The power feels a bit sluggish, but definitely there.  The interior has a certain quality, but still sub-par compared to cars in its comparable market.  I still say go for the RSX and save a few grand at the dealership, the pumps, and the insurance.

349378[/snapback]

even the RSX-s would get spanked by a GTO, I think for the driving experience and performance, the GTO would be a better buy, point A-B dailly driver, the RSX would be the way to go

349729[/snapback]

Oh Trust me, there's no doubt that a RWD V8 is going to spank a FWD I4. Just with that formula alone it should be obvious who won.

As for the VW's, I have had to work on 3 of my friends Audi A4's and they are not at all fun to work on... in fact all German cars suck nuts to work on, it's like they purposely put unecessary pieces of metal in the engine compartment to piss mechanics off. Just to change the timing belt requires me to take almost half the engine apart, and don't even get me started on the price for parts. The only easy German cars to work on are the absolute bottom end ones (Golf, 3 series, A3, 230 kompressor) but that still doesn't change the price of parts.

I love German cars, but only up to the warranty period. Like someone above said about Audi, just own it until the warranty expires then get a new car.

[pfunk]

The only reason i'm not a fan of the GTO is the fact that it looks like a Cavalier on steroids, not so much that it doesn't "honor Heritage".  GM just took the Australian Vauxhall Monaro and rebadged it as the GTO, which to me just seems lazy.  If GM had actually designed a car with the GTO in mind as the target, then i would bring a bit more credibility to its rebirth.

As for performance, the car does wonderfully.  The power feels a bit sluggish, but definitely there.  The interior has a certain quality, but still sub-par compared to cars in its comparable market.  I still say go for the RSX and save a few grand at the dealership, the pumps, and the insurance.

349378[/snapback]

even the RSX-s would get spanked by a GTO, I think for the driving experience and performance, the GTO would be a better buy, point A-B dailly driver, the RSX would be the way to go

349729[/snapback]

Oh Trust me, there's no doubt that a RWD V8 is going to spank a FWD I4. Just with that formula alone it should be obvious who won.

As for the VW's, I have had to work on 3 of my friends Audi A4's and they are not at all fun to work on... in fact all German cars suck nuts to work on, it's like they purposely put unecessary pieces of metal in the engine compartment to piss mechanics off. Just to change the timing belt requires me to take almost half the engine apart, and don't even get me started on the price for parts. The only easy German cars to work on are the absolute bottom end ones (Golf, 3 series, A3, 230 kompressor) but that still doesn't change the price of parts.

I love German cars, but only up to the warranty period. Like someone above said about Audi, just own it until the warranty expires then get a new car.

349769[/snapback]

thats that layer built thing I was talking about, and things like lug bolts

[bsu legato]

Germans over-engineering something?! Nonsense!

[emajnthis]

That's what i don't understand about people who say that German cars are the best thing on earth. It's obvious that none of them actually work on their own cars.