The MW Automotive Thread

[bsu legato]

Two doors or four doors, it still has all the styling of a cinder block. Using the 300 platform is one thing, but for god's sake Dodge, give your cars some individuality. At least the "General" there lost that stupid Ram grille. If I were a Mopar fan, I'd be more hopeful that these whispers about the Challenger making a comeback are true. Unless, of course, its yet another 300 reskin.

What I do find interesting is the Kenny Brown GT Mustang. I don't know how they did it, but they crafted a rear quarter for the Stang that looks like it was cut off of a '69 fastback. Very sexy. Especially if sombody combined it with the CDC shaker hood & scoop, which are also 1969 derivitives.

[emajnthis]

Anybody know where there may be more photos from the SEMA show?  Particularly the customized Dodge Charger?  It looks like West Coast Customs has finally created what consumers have been begging Chrysler for since day one: a two door coupe ver. of the Charger.  Up til now, it's only been seen as the digital imaginings of Photoshop artists, but now it seems it's been shown to be possible.  You've got to hand it to Chrysler, they've got some of the most aesthetically pleasing and most customizable cars on the road today [somewhat tacky customizers' paint choices notwithstanding].  But some of the auto rag pundits still proclaim it a company in the red?  Go figure.  But I guess all of the big 3 are in somewhat shaky conditions.  They can't do any worse than GM, whose cars are some of the fugliest on the road.  They seem to be kept afloat by fleet sales and older consumers who remain doggedly brand loyal. 

I think I'm liking the idea of a 2-door Charger--ugly ass truck grille or no...c'mon Dodge!  Get with it already!

343839[/snapback]

Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep isn't really in the red. It's actually the company that recently partnered with them that is going under... you guessed it, Mercedes. And it's not a wonder why, off the top of my head Mercedes makes 13 motors (if you include both NA and super/turbocharged versions of the same platform) and an endless amount of different bodies with any 3 digit combination of horsepower that you can imagine. The cost of production for mercedes cost them 2.2 billion dollars in overhead last year. i guess that isn't much considering that's how much GM paid Ford not to buy out Fiat (in fear of them picking up Ferrari and Maserati along the way).

The CEO that was borrowed from Mercedes to bring Dodge/Chrysler out of the dumps has now been appointed back to Mercedes to redeem them of their losses. At some point, they need to hire more competent CEO's and get with the program... and i agree that dodge needs to make cars that don't have the aerodynamics of a brick, everything looks like a truck, or a wannabe truck.

[glane21]

Another weird thing about Mercedes, to me, is that their hopped-up AMG versions are almost identical appearance-wise to the standard model. If I'm going to drop $165k to get the SL65 12 cylinder twin turbo, I want it to look a lot different than the $80k SL500. But they don't unless you're a Mercedes enthusiast who knows the small cues to look for.

[emajnthis]

Another weird thing about Mercedes, to me, is that their hopped-up AMG versions are almost identical appearance-wise to the standard model.  If I'm going to drop $165k to get the SL65 12 cylinder twin turbo, I want it to look a lot different than the $80k SL500.  But they don't unless you're a Mercedes enthusiast who knows the small cues to look for.

343861[/snapback]

Well, i would say as a motor enthusiast a lot of cars are that way, even American cars. As i told my wife, the only difference that is obvious to most people between the V6 and GT mustangs are the fog lamps in the grill. I understand the point though, in that you're basically doubling your money to get a car that most people won't notice. I figure if you're going to buy the top of the line model of a sports car, you're only doing it to impress yourself or other motor enthusiasts who know what they're looking for. If someone wants to drop 200,000 to turn heads they would just buy a playboy car like a gallardo spyder or F430 Spyder, because eventhough they're fast, no one really cares what's under the hood, they just know you have a "Ferrari" or a "Lamborghini". Where as the motor enthusiast would laugh at anyone buying a convertible sports car; the average onlooker will think it's cool purely out of ignorance.

[Agent ONE]

Another weird thing about Mercedes, to me, is that their hopped-up AMG versions are almost identical appearance-wise to the standard model.  If I'm going to drop $165k to get the SL65 12 cylinder twin turbo, I want it to look a lot different than the $80k SL500.  But they don't unless you're a Mercedes enthusiast who knows the small cues to look for.

343861[/snapback]

Well, i would say as a motor enthusiast a lot of cars are that way, even American cars. As i told my wife, the only difference that is obvious to most people between the V6 and GT mustangs are the fog lamps in the grill. I understand the point though, in that you're basically doubling your money to get a car that most people won't notice. I figure if you're going to buy the top of the line model of a sports car, you're only doing it to impress yourself or other motor enthusiasts who know what they're looking for. If someone wants to drop 200,000 to turn heads they would just buy a playboy car like a gallardo spyder or F430 Spyder, because eventhough they're fast, no one really cares what's under the hood, they just know you have a "Ferrari" or a "Lamborghini". Where as the motor enthusiast would laugh at anyone buying a convertible sports car; the average onlooker will think it's cool purely out of ignorance.

343877[/snapback]

Great post. I know all my fraternity brothers thought chicks would flock around my car when I got it. They are all car guys. Not a single chick made a big deal about it.. ever. Those guys didn't realize that to them an M3 is just as cool as any other BMW... Makes no difference what it is, just as long as its a BMW, all the same to girls. I of course didn't care as I got it for performance.

[Agent ONE]

oops, put my post in the quote.

[emajnthis]

That's why my wife has taken a proactive approach to learning about cars. When i start talking about them and all she can do is look at me with a blank stare she started to get the idea that this would be a pattern. So since she started to educate herself, she's spotted a Bentley GT, a Ford GT, a DB9, and a Gallardo. I'm mighty proud

[yellowlightman]

had I bought a 240SX with a pick-up truck engine in it I'd have an entire catalog of parts available from sweet Japanese tuners like Nismo, Tein, Endless etc.

343783[/snapback]

Except the 240SX came with the KA24DE, while in Japan the 180SX and Silvia came with the CA18DET and later the SR20DET. There is a reason why so many people do the SR20 swap...

[emajnthis]

had I bought a 240SX with a pick-up truck engine in it I'd have an entire catalog of parts available from sweet Japanese tuners like Nismo, Tein, Endless etc.

343783[/snapback]

Except the 240SX came with the KA24DE, while in Japan the 180SX and Silvia came with the CA18DET and later the SR20DET. There is a reason why so many people do the SR20 swap...

343924[/snapback]

but the SR20 swap is also overrated because most people do it wrong. A lot of people grab the SR out of the S13/14 Silvias and not the S15 Silvias and the S15 is the one you want for many mechanical and design reasons. The big points are the S15 SR20DET has Variable Valve Timing also a bigger ceramic ball bearing turbo and it had a small change in compression. Not to mention it had 280bhp (but with Nissan's reputation that's probably a lie to meet the now lifted Gentleman's agreement) but you'll often see SR20 240SX's on ebay, and the reason they suck is because most people use the old SR20 which requires a hell of a lot more work and money to make it up to snuff. And if you do the smart thing with the 240SX and just buy the S15 front clip, you also have the privelage of having a 6 speed rather than 5 (but if you're drifting the 5 speed is more efficient) and also you can buy the after market fenders and hood for the S15 front end to replace the dated 240SX front end. This was a project car i had in mind a long time ago, but now due to the absence of time in my schedule i just hope someone intelligent will put a 240 together that actually works the way it should.

In defense of the KA motor, there really is nothing wrong with it (aside from it being a truck motor) and you'll find lots of motorsports companies that make awesome turbo kits for this motor and tuner magazines that have guides to juicing this motor to crazy numbers.

Edited November 10, 2005 by emajnthis

[PC Valkyrie]

Some comments about Mercedes and AMG, as I'm quite familiar with their virtues and "problems".

Since the late 1990's, the electronics in Mercedes cars have become more complex. At the same time, there were some cost cutting measure taken in the production side of things. They stopped "overengineering" their cars, as was the case beforehand.

The combination of these 3 factors has resulted in cars which have had below average initial quality and long term reliability. While their motors have remained rock solid, almost all of the problems relate to electronic glitches and bugs. The biggest "glitch" has been their SBC (fully electronic, no hydraulics) braking system which is offerred in the current E- and SL-class cars. Because this system was found to fail occasionally, they had to spend big $$$$ for a massive worldwide recall of all the cars affected. After this fiasco, they've dropped this SBC braking system for the future models. The upcoming redesigned top of the line 2007 S-class sedan will not even offer this as an option.

Many of you probably have read about Mercedes' fall in the JD Powers surveys (initial quality and long term reliability). The negative press that Mercedes got and the relative lack of new exciting models in the last 2-3 years has really hurt Mercedes in terms of sales and profits. In 2004, the people in charge in Stuttgart made a new committment to increased "quality" for Mercedes. Their efforts have paid off to some degree as Mercedes jumped from very low to among the top 3 or 5 manufacturers in the JD Powers survey for initial quality. Time will tell if long term reliabilty will improve.

With regards AMG, I agree that most AMG models are not very flashy in terms of exterior appearance. I believe this is deliberate to appeal to customers who don't want to stand out more than a typical benz. For sure, the BMW M models (their direct competitors) have relatively more road presence and seem to turn heads more with flared fenders and more aggressive bodywork. AMG cars are about effortless speed and acceleration with a sleeper look. All of their cars have immense torque figures very low in the rpm range due to the use of high displacement engines +/- forced induction with supercharging or turbocharging. HP numbers are insane for their top models. This is in contrast to BMW M, who produce high reving lower displacement engines whose peak torque comes at much higher engine speeds (like Honda). In other words, you have to work harder in an M car to get the massive acceleration compared to an AMG car. Different approaches for different customers.

[emajnthis]

Some comments about Mercedes and AMG, as I'm quite familiar with their virtues and "problems".

Since the late 1990's, the electronics in Mercedes cars have become more complex.  At the same time, there were some cost cutting measure taken in the production side of things.  They stopped "overengineering" their cars, as was the case beforehand. 

The combination of these 3 factors has resulted in cars which have had below average initial quality and long term reliability.  While their motors have remained rock solid, almost all of the problems relate to electronic glitches and bugs.  The biggest "glitch" has been their SBC (fully electronic, no hydraulics) braking system which is offerred in the current E- and SL-class cars. Because this system was found to fail occasionally, they had to spend big $$$$ for a massive worldwide recall of all the cars affected.  After this fiasco, they've dropped this SBC braking system for the future models.  The upcoming redesigned top of the line 2007 S-class sedan will not even offer this as an option.

Many of you probably have read about Mercedes' fall in the JD Powers surveys (initial quality and long term reliability).  The negative press that Mercedes got and the relative lack of new exciting models in the last 2-3 years has really hurt Mercedes in terms of sales and profits.  In 2004, the people in charge in Stuttgart made a new committment to increased "quality" for Mercedes.  Their efforts have paid off to some degree as Mercedes jumped from very low to among the top 3 or 5 manufacturers in the JD Powers survey for initial quality.  Time will tell if long term reliabilty will improve.

With regards AMG, I agree that most AMG models are not very flashy in terms of exterior appearance.  I believe this is deliberate to appeal to customers who don't want to stand out more than a typical benz.  For sure,  the BMW M models (their direct competitors) have relatively more road presence and seem to turn heads more with flared fenders and more aggressive bodywork.  AMG cars are about effortless speed and acceleration with a sleeper look.  All of their cars have immense torque figures very low in the rpm range due to the use of high displacement engines +/- forced induction with supercharging or turbocharging.  HP numbers are insane for their top models.  This is in contrast to BMW M, who produce high reving lower displacement engines whose peak torque comes at much higher engine speeds (like Honda).  In other words, you have to work harder in an M car to get the massive acceleration compared to an AMG car.  Different approaches for different customers.

344044[/snapback]

Germans in general have never had reliable electronics. Just look at BMW and their "i-drive" system, it's total crap. Have you ever tried to use the Navigation on any german car? it's total crap, and hella freakin annoying. Personally, I think German's should just stick completely to mechanics and get all of their electronics from Japan. Germans have NEVER had a good track record for their electronic equipment, it's never user friendly to start, and then it will most likely fail by the time your car hits 50,000 miles.

When it comes to Mercedes Vs. BMW and their approach to sports cars, i hardly consider Mercedes to be in the Pure sports car market. The first thing that annoys me about all AMG cars, is that Mercedes has never been able to make a decent manual transmission, so they stick that dated 5 speed automatic in everything. Aside from that, they kind of cheat when it comes to pumping horse power out of cars, and like stated above, they stopped over engineering awhile ago (hence why their coveted 55AMG motor is only single overhead cam) and rather than engineer and tune the horsepower out of their cars, they just stick a bigger super charger with a shorter pulley and crank more boost. Not to mention Mercedes has been foolish in creating new motors, but then not using them to replace any of their old ones (like creating the new 63AMG V8 but not using it to replace the 55, not to mention having two different v12 twin turbos) which is giving them tons of overhead production costs. BMW on the other hand gives all of their hot sports cars six speeds, or at least the paddle shift, and has now added variable valve timing to their Inline 6, so you know their still keeping up to date. Also incorporating their Formula 1 V10 into some of their new cars, and are specially creating a manual transmission to be linked to that motor in the next few years (since the only thing that could handle the V10 power was their 7-speed automatic before) so you know they're at least trying.

Merecedes AMG cars are great and all... if you're retired. But for someone who truly loves the power and the pavement and the oneness that is acheived in a true sports car, the AMG just doesn't deliver.

Edited November 11, 2005 by emajnthis

[PC Valkyrie]

hehehehe......I was expecting some major Mercedes/AMG bashing here. I agree that AMG is not the brand to get if you want purer sports car experience. As I said before, the philosophy to making a "performance" car is different between AMG and M. AMG historically always wanted low end torque so the driver can access that power easily without major downshifting. AMG also tunes their cars to be slightly more comfortable for day to day driving on the streets. In contrast, BMW M has always used high reving motors where you have to rev to get the power. BMW is always praised for their superior handling feel and feedback, especially when at the handling limits on a track. The cost is usually a harsher ride in urban driving.

Interestingly, their approaches seem to be converging. As mentioned above, AMG has a new naturally aspirated 6.2L V8 which has 4 valves per cylinder and variable valve timing. It makes about 510HP @6800rpm. It is billed as a high reving motor with redline at 7200rpm. Not high as a Honda VTEC or BMW M engine, but much higher than their current engines. This engine also has lower torque numbers than their current supercharged 5.4L 3 valve V8. On the other hand, BMW's engines are also increasing in displacement (5.0L V10 in the new M5 and M6, and it is speculated that the next M3 will have a 4.X L V8 making >400HP to replace the current 333HP 3.2L I6). Furthermore, Mercedes' upcoming engines will all move to 4 valve design. The first of the new ones came out in the SLK350 and now the C350 and E350. The upcoming new S class will have a new 5.5L 4 valve V8 making 388HP.

I thought long and hard earlier this year deciding between the current M3 and C55AMG, so I've done quite a bit reading in forums and tests of both cars. Also got to drive the SMG M3 on an autocross course and my friend's 6 speed M3 cabrio extensively on the streets.

My conclusions: Both the M3 and C55 are sub-5 second cars to 60mph and both will do the 1/4 mile in the low to mid 13's. Both have similar grip levels on a skidpad and similar slalom speeds according to the magazines with a slight edge to the M3 in that department. Both take the same 8.22 minutes to lap the high speed Nurburgring track in Europe. However, the M3 feels subjectively better at the handling limits. There is better steering feel and the chassis communicates better feedback in the M3. This is where the M3 usually wins out in the comparison tests. If you track your car, the M3 is the car of choice, hands down. It feels more sure footed at the handling limits than the C55. However, the C55 is so much more easier to drive fast around town because of superior torque low in the rpm range. The natrually aspirated 5.4L 3 valve V8 makes 362HP and 376lb-ft torque, with most of that accessible under 3000rpm. From 3000 rpm to the 6700 redline, hold on!!! On the streets, very few people will ever take either car to their handling limits, so I thought that the M3's forte will rarely be exploited. With that compromise, the more comfortable and luxurious C55 won out in my mind. That and 4 doors help with 2 baby car seats in the back....

Edited November 11, 2005 by PC Valkyrie

[Beltane70]

thats pretty much how it is in japan too. nissans, mazdas, subarus etc. all have a pretty good tuner following but I don't think they do too much to hondas

That's because Hondas are nowhere near as popular in Japan as they are in the US. In the three trips that I've been to Japan, I saw a lot less Hondas than I see here at home.

but the SR20 swap is also overrated because most people do it wrong. A lot of people grab the SR out of the S13/14 Silvias and not the S15 Silvias and the S15 is the one you want for many mechanical and design reasons. The big points are the S15 SR20DET has Variable Valve Timing also a bigger ceramic ball bearing turbo and it had a small change in compression. Not to mention it had 280bhp (but with Nissan's reputation that's probably a lie to meet the now lifted Gentleman's agreement) but you'll often see SR20 240SX's on ebay, and the reason they suck is because most people use the old SR20 which requires a hell of a lot more work and money to make it up to snuff. And if you do the smart thing with the 240SX and just buy the S15 front clip, you also have the privelage of having a 6 speed rather than 5 (but if you're drifting the 5 speed is more efficient) and also you can buy the after market fenders and hood for the S15 front end to replace the dated 240SX front end. This was a project car i had in mind a long time ago, but now due to the absence of time in my schedule i just hope someone intelligent will put a 240 together that actually works the way it should.

I've been semi-seriously looking for 1995-98 (preferably 98) around my area and have been having very little lucj around where I live (NJ). When I do see them, they're usually ones with automatic transmissions (ugh).

[Agent ONE]

This thing has a jaguar emblem on it, but was it ever put into production? Looks awesome.

[Phyrox]

THAT isn't a jaguar,

THIS is a jaguar:

[Agent ONE]

THAT isn't a jaguar,

THIS is a jaguar:

344273[/snapback]

Yeah thats awesome... About the one I posted. What the hell is it? It has NO Jag look to it, but it looks awesome. It actually looks kinda Maserati to me, not sure why.

[Agent ONE]

Never mind, I found it:

http://www.autointell.com/supplier/enginee...blackjag-04.htm

[Stamen0083]

Did anyone go to the Autoshow in Motion at Great America this weekend? I went for about an hour earlier today with a few of my friends and got banned from driving because I took the corners without braking. Damn GM cars and squealing tires. Didn't have time to take the Hummers on their obstacle course or drive the Corvettes, but I'm coming back tomorrow morning to drive some more.

Drove a Chevy Cobalt. Slow, handles like a shopping cart. Drove a Z71 truck. Not sure what it was... Fast acceleration, great brakes, handles like a shopping cart. Drove a Pontiac Grand Prix. Has HUD, very cool! The course didn't let me test the sequential shift, since I never got out of first gear... But handles like a shopping cart and got me banned. I'll be sure to slow down and brake tomorrow so I can make it to the Hummers' course. Also sat in the H2 and H3. I understand why people want to buy the H2. It's so spacious and luxurious! H3 sucked though.

[areaseven]

Did you drive a plain Cobalt, or the Supercharged SS? Regardless of which, it's just an over-glorified Cavalier.

And the H2 is a piece of junk, regardless of how luxurious it is. What's the point of buying an SUV that can't even go off-road?

Sample Video

[Stamen0083]

Plain Cobalt. The SS should be much better, but I didn't have time. I wanted to get the passenger course over with so I can get to the performance course with the Corvettes.

I didn't like the build quality of those cars at all. The H2 and H3's door handles felt like they would rip right off. Same with the shifter. Lots of things on the other GM cars felt very flimsy.

The Hummer course has lots of things set up, including a pretty steep climb and descent. It should be interesting driving that course tomorrow. They also have competitor cars there, like BMW 325 and others.

[yellowlightman]

And the H2 is a piece of junk, regardless of how luxurious it is. What's the point of buying an SUV that can't even go off-road?

344424[/snapback]

Yeah, because so many SUV's are made for use off road.

[reddsun1]

a $55,000 vehicle, rendered useless by a $25 part....that's usually how it goes.

[reddsun1]

All I can say is: DAMMIT! That was my idea!! Looks like someone's in the process of trying to get the Ford GT homologated for competition, in Speed World Challenge? One of the backers includes Sammy Hagar and his Cabo Cabo(?) restaurants. The subtle aero refinements--at the nose, in front of the rear wheel arches and with the rear wing are nearly exactlywhat I had in mind, albeit with an original [i.e. smaller, lighter, purpose built for racing] GT40 chassis, maybe a Mk I or Mk II tub? I still say the new GT is too much of a pig to make a truly good race car. In fact, [no one would ever believe me, probably sound like a ranting fu--wit] I've got some .bmp's of GT40 line blueprints from a couple of years ago that I played around with in MS Paint that look very similar. Very. I even went so far as to contact a kit car company in Oz as to whether such mods would be feasible with the original bodywork. *sigh* I'm a misunderstood genius, I am....

Okay, maybe just a ranting lunatic....

Edited November 14, 2005 by reddsun1

[Golden Arms]

A few weeks ago I saw a black ford GT on the highway as I was going to the barber shop one morning.

[Agent ONE]

A few weeks ago I saw a black ford GT on the highway as I was going to the barber shop one morning.

344549[/snapback]

I raced one the other day, swerved at him doing about 120 and he freaked out and I cut him off... I told BSU about it... Seems I am a bit of an a-hole.

[Phyrox]

A few weeks ago I saw a black ford GT on the highway as I was going to the barber shop one morning.

344549[/snapback]

I raced one the other day, swerved at him doing about 120 and he freaked out and I cut him off... I told BSU about it... Seems I am a bit of an a-hole.

344553[/snapback]

poo like that gets people killed.

[Agent ONE]

A few weeks ago I saw a black ford GT on the highway as I was going to the barber shop one morning.

344549[/snapback]

I raced one the other day, swerved at him doing about 120 and he freaked out and I cut him off... I told BSU about it... Seems I am a bit of an a-hole.

344553[/snapback]

poo like that gets people killed.

344577[/snapback]

Well, I had balls and he didn't. He DID decide to race me. When one locks horns with Agent ONE, one must expect the wrath of pure awesomeness.

[Stamen0083]

Some people overdose on awesomeness and died from head explosion.

Racing is racing, but swerving at him to cut him off is just rude.

[yellowlightman]

You guys are forgetting that it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning is winning. AgentOne lives his life a quarter mile of a time, and he's never, never going back.

[Agent ONE]

You guys are forgetting that it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning is winning. AgentOne lives his life a quarter mile of a time, and he's never, never going back.

344595[/snapback]

The hand of CROM guides you!

[Poonman]

I thought he lived his life a quarter mile at a time and for those 13 seconds he's free or something?

I saw a new Lincoln Zephyr on the highway the other day and I must admit the backend looked pretty badass. the tails were a little too big but it looked cool from the back. the front is crap- big gigantic chrome grill looks like a fence in someones front yard or something..

a lot better than the LS tho.. kinda cool i guess if your an old man. confused me when I saw it... was thinking "what the hell is that?"

Edited November 14, 2005 by Poonman

[areaseven]

Yeah, the front end looks a bit oddball, but the Zephyr's otherwise a good-looking car. The Ford Fusion also isn't bad at all. The Mercury Milan looks nice as well.

BTW, all three cars share the same platform with the Mazda6, a car I'd choose over them.

[yellowlightman]

My Mom recently bought a Mazda6 hatchback with the 4cyl and automatic transmission. Even with the smaller motor and wuss-box tranny it's still a fun car and great to drive. The best in the segment I'd say, and unlike the Ford Fusion or Mercury Milan... it'll actually hold it's value!

[areaseven]

And unlike the Ford Fusion or Mercury Milan... it'll actually hold its value!

344633[/snapback]

You're actually right about that. Now that the Taurus and Sable are gone, the Fusion and Milan will be filling their spots at rental dealerships.

Rental Cars = Shitty Resale Value

[yellowlightman]

You're actually right about that. Now that the Taurus and Sable are gone, the Fusion and Milan will be filling their spots at rental dealerships.

Rental Cars = Shitty Resale Value

344642[/snapback]

It's more like... American cars = Shitty Resale. I don't mean that in a poo-stirring way, just how it is. Look at cars like the late-80's Camry wagon and compare it with the same era Chevy Nova (same car, just rebadged) and see which has held it's value better. Same deal with Corolla's and rebadged Corolla's under the Geo name.

The names of these new Ford's suck. The Five Hundred, the Fusion and the Milan? Not horrible names, just weird and not really appropriate for Ford's I think. Besides, this is the only Milan(o) I'll ever recognize...