The MW Automotive Thread

[pfunk]

the thing w/ the Supra tho is that the ricers have really messed w/ the used retail value of them. a '96 six-speed twin turbo is still worth $20k or more if its a rare color. I was looking to buy one about 5 years ago and the prices haven't changed. thats just crazy.

337845[/snapback]

The retail is still extraordinarily high, but in all honesty... they're worth it. The performance combined with Toyota reliability and build quality? The 2JZGTE motors are bullet proof and the rest of the car is just overbuilt. Would I buy one? Doubtful, but all things considered it's probably one of the greatest performance cars of all time... if not the greatest.

And while the TT Supra may be a great performing car, I find it extraordinarily ugly with all those lights on the front. And will it destroy a stock Mustang? Yes. But with the money one costs, you could easily buy a Mustang of the same year and enough mods to leave the Supra in the dust. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I just don't understand why you have to be such an asshat and constantly blast the cars that many of us like. I don't know if it is envy or stupidity, but I am done with you.

No matter how much money you pump into a Mustang it's still going to handle like garbage, and have the grotesque Ford design, build quality and reliability. The Supra is a superior car made to a higher standard than the Mustang and that's not something you can fix by just putting "mod" money into it.

I don't have a problem with people liking different cars but some cars are superior; that's a fact. The Japanese make better cars and their superiors; that is a fact. As as much as you might accuse me of sounding like the import loving 'Merican-hater stereotype, you sound just as much like a V8-loving, technology-hating redneck 'Merican car enthusiast.

If anything, I'm probably one of the most open-minded car enthusiasts you'll meet... I just don't like crap and I voice that. A few months ago I was drooling over of the new Z06, so my tastes have nothing to do with one country being better than the other.

And the only cars I envy are Alfa's, so don't flatter yourself.

337887[/snapback]

hate to tell ya, but ALL car companies buy from the same suppliers, whitch are engineered by the same people, I may move to a Toyota shop in the upcomming years (which will make you Toyotas more valuable )Studios are the one of the only things that they keep to themselves and basic chassis/powertrain design, hell, I worked on a lotus program designing the L850 4 banger intake manifold, manufactured by Inergy (was Solvay),,,,they make all Chrystler intakes for thier V6's,,,,yes, Lotus parts from the same manufacturer as Dodge,,,, as for comparing a Supra to a Mustang compare it to the new vette (not Z06),,,,superior, I dont think so, Lets see a Japan car from the factory that rivals,,,sorry, destroys the best Ferrarri and Porshe can put out and run 1.04G's on the skid pad with factory tires, still run sub 12's in the quarter m ile,,,

[Stamen0083]

Lets see a Japan car from the factory that rivals,,,sorry, destroys the best Ferrarri and Porshe can put out and run 1.04G's on the skid pad with factory tires, still run sub 12's in the quarter m ile,,,

337946[/snapback]

You do realize that Ferrari and Porsche's supercars are super expensive because they get super stuff on it, right? If Honda were to put P-Zero on the NSX and make it standard, no doubt it can pull 1.04 G and more on the skid pad. In fact, if you want to compare Enzo and Carrera GT to Japanese cars, you must compare them to the JGTC race cars, as that would put them on a more level footing, and even then, the JGTC NSX's are running on V-6's.

PS: GT-R prototype has been "officially" unveiled? The design is starting to grow on me.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Stamen0083

[trueblueeyes]

I didn't think about it, but pfunk is right: You really can't compare the Supra to the Mustang. The Fox Mustang was about cheap speed in its day. Its relative low price and bang for the buck helped sell it. It made no apologies then or now for what it is. The Supra is still an expensive car on the used car market. You can buy a Fox Mustang for much less than five grand now, and have a lot left over for fun parts (including Saleen or Steeda suspension parts that improve the pony's handling characteristics). For a car that is so horrible and ugly, it has a hell of a lot of manufacturers that still develop and make new parts for it...not to mention the fact that there are two racing series devoted exclusively to the Mustang.

V8-loving, technology-hating redneck 'Merican car enthusiast.

Damn! I never knew NSX's were American V8's! I could have sworn they were mid-engine Japanese sports cars. Learn something new every day, I suppose. Edited October 19, 2005 by trueblueeyes

[yellowlightman]

as for comparing a Supra to a Mustang compare it to the new vette (not Z06),,,,superior, I dont think so, Lets see a Japan car from the factory that rivals,,,sorry, destroys the best Ferrarri and Porshe can put out and run 1.04G's on the skid pad with factory tires, still run sub 12's in the quarter m ile,,,

337946[/snapback]

And the Z06 is $50k more, so for the price the Supra comes a hell of a lot closer to it in terms of performance.

I didn't think about it, but pfunk is right: You really can't compare the Supra to the Mustang. The Fox Mustang was about cheap speed in its day. Its relative low price and bang for the buck helped sell it. It made no apologies then or now for what it is. The Supra is still an expensive car on the used car market. You can buy a Fox Mustang for much less than five grand now, and have a lot left over for fun parts (including Saleen or Steeda suspension parts that improve the pony's handling characteristics). For a car that is so horrible and ugly, it has a hell of a lot of manufacturers that still develop and make new parts for it...not to mention the fact that there are two racing series devoted exclusively to the Mustang. laugh.gif

And that $5k Foxbody with mod money will only be improved in one area: 1/4 mile times. The suspension geometry and handling on those cars is atrocious. I suppose it is unfair comparison, given how quickly Mustang's lose their value, but the fact remains you could spend that much plus "mod" money and still get a much better car in all areas. They race riding lawn mowers too, maybe you should just ditch your Cobra and get one of those, then?

[Agent ONE]

Dude ALL american cars lose value worse than anything else. Big plastic rattle boxes... Never been in an american car that was over a year old that didn't have at least one rattle in the interior.

[GreenGuy42]

How strange that my crappy old 96 Mustang doesn't rattle....

Then again, I take care of it, keep it well lubed, and do most of my own engine work...

[Beltane70]

QUOTE(pfunk @ Oct 19 2005, 09:47 AM)

Lets see a Japan car from the factory that rivals,,,sorry, destroys the best Ferrarri and Porshe can put out and run 1.04G's on the skid pad with factory tires, still run sub 12's in the quarter m ile,,,

You do realize that Ferrari and Porsche's supercars are super expensive because they get super stuff on it, right? If Honda were to put P-Zero on the NSX and make it standard, no doubt it can pull 1.04 G and more on the skid pad. In fact, if you want to compare Enzo and Carrera GT to Japanese cars, you must compare them to the JGTC race cars, as that would put them on a more level footing, and even then, the JGTC NSX's are running on V-6's.

PS: GT-R prototype has been "officially" unveiled? The design is starting to grow on me.

Not to mention that the best cars Porsche and Ferrari produce are ones that are made in extremely low quantities and have price tags that only the rich can afford.

[trueblueeyes]

Dude ALL american cars lose value worse than anything else.  Big plastic rattle boxes...  Never been in an american car that was over a year old that didn't have at least one rattle in the interior.

338026[/snapback]

We recently traded in a 2003 GT for a 2003 Lightning. Both were over a year old, and neither had any rattles. The 95 Lightning has a cheap bed cover that rattles, that I should replace, but the interior is squeak free.

To add to this, the fact is the Cobra's interior rattles worse than the 91 coupe I have had since high school. Not as bad as either of our race cars, but still pretty bad. It has been a daily driver for a couple of years though and I *did* have an accident in it when it was new (fell asleep and ran off the road into a ditch..lol). That could very well be a major factor.

Edited October 20, 2005 by trueblueeyes

[trueblueeyes]

Has anyone here bought collector car insurance? I need to do something since my policy limits coverage to only five vehicles. Suggestions?

[trueblueeyes]

Haha, how did I miss this:

They race riding lawn mowers too, maybe you should just ditch your Cobra and get one of those, then?

Such witty repertoire. Do you do stand up too? I could always use a butler or a gardner...The one thing I don't need: my own forum troll.

[bsu legato]

grotesque Ford design,

337887[/snapback]

Hmmm....veering a little into subjective territory, aren't we?

[peter]

Lets see a Japan car from the factory that rivals,,,sorry, destroys the best Ferrarri and Porshe can put out and run 1.04G's on the skid pad with factory tires, still run sub 12's in the quarter m ile,,,

337946[/snapback]

You do realize that Ferrari and Porsche's supercars are super expensive because they get super stuff on it, right? If Honda were to put P-Zero on the NSX and make it standard, no doubt it can pull 1.04 G and more on the skid pad. In fact, if you want to compare Enzo and Carrera GT to Japanese cars, you must compare them to the JGTC race cars, as that would put them on a more level footing, and even then, the JGTC NSX's are running on V-6's.

PS: GT-R prototype has been "officially" unveiled? The design is starting to grow on me.

337947[/snapback]

I just saw the Prototype...not sure if I like it yet....probably looks better in real life.

Nice models by the way...nice and clean.

[yellowlightman]

Haha, how did I miss this:

They race riding lawn mowers too, maybe you should just ditch your Cobra and get one of those, then?

Such witty repertoire. Do you do stand up too? I could always use a butler or a gardner...The one thing I don't need: my own forum troll.

338100[/snapback]

Good job ignoring the rest of my post, but so far all you've done is complain about my "hating" on American cars, so that's no surprise. I'd be willing to do some garden work for you, but getting the push mower around all those cars on cinderblocks in your front yard would be a pain.

Hmmm....veering a little into subjective territory, aren't we?

Subjective or not, some things are just inferior to their competitors. I do rather like the new F-150's and Mustang's, but everything else Ford has made in the last 15 years looks and feels like junk. The interiors are horrible, they look cheap and feel flimsy. It isn't much better on the outside, howabotu Ford's "oval" stage when the Taurus, Escort and Contour looked like suppositories? The interior on pre-'05 Mustangs feels like less of a sports car than my '92 beater Civic.

It wasn't my intention to hate on other's peoples cars, everyone has different tastes. All said and done, there are many aspects to a car which have a quantifiable value. Pick up Consumer Reports and look at the highest ranked cars, Japanese cars by and large beat out other cars in their class. It's as simple as that.

[trueblueeyes]

More of the wit. Shall we trade insults?

my '92 beater Civic.

Wow, an elitist snob who can't afford a decent car. No wonder you are such an asshat. If I had to drive something like that, I'd be bitter too. Do you have a set of those spinning plastic wheel covers from Autozone that makes you really cool?

How is that? Am I as clever as you now?

It wasn't my intention to hate on other's peoples cars, everyone has different tastes.

Oh please, that has been my problem with you from the start. You have gone out of your way to knock on cars you don't like and automotive sports that *you* don't approve of. It is annoying when you have spent a long time perfecting what you do, and some a-hole who has probably never worked on a car in his life can hide behind a computer screen and make fun of it. You don't have to like it, but why insult it unless you have some need to feel superior?

[trueblueeyes]

A word of warning for those who might be in the market for a used car, truck, or SUV anytime within the next year. There are well over a thousand vehicles at an auction lot here being prepped for sale. All were damaged in some way as a result of Hurricanes Katrina or Rita, and now belong to various insurance companies. The damage varies from total destruction by flying debris, to total water immersion, to limited flooding. There have been crews out every day cleaning the cars. So please, please do a carfax or some other check if you buy any used vehicles. Remember, some states don't require salvage titles or even that original titles list flood damage. Some may be great deals, but I'd woudn't want to think of the electrical problems that could occur with a flooded car. Just something to keep in mind. It does make me sad every time I drive buy and see that silver NSX though. I'm betting that wasn't a happy owner.

[yellowlightman]

my '92 beater Civic.

Wow, an elitist snob who can't afford a decent car. No wonder you are such an asshat. If I had to drive something like that, I'd be bitter too. Do you have a set of those spinning plastic wheel covers from Autozone that makes you really cool?

What's not decent about a Civic? It's reliable as hell, gets great gas mileage and is affordable to a college student like myself. I noticed you live in Missisipi, so in case you didn't know "college" is another school you go to after you graduate from high school.

It wasn't my intention to hate on other's peoples cars, everyone has different tastes.

Oh please, that has been my problem with you from the start. You have gone out of your way to knock on cars you don't like and automotive sports that *you* don't approve of. It is annoying when you have spent a long time perfecting what you do, and some a-hole who has probably never worked on a car in his life can hide behind a computer screen and make fun of it. You don't have to like it, but why insult it unless you have some need to feel superior?

338167[/snapback]

I love how you completely ignore the rest of my message to whine about me being a mean guy. You've been running away from any sort of discussion and getting mad at me for hating on your sweet rides. Perhaps if you were more secure in yourself, you wouldn't get so butthurt about what some poor college kid says about them.

Are you implying you've spent a lifetime perfecting working on Ford's? Well, I won't argue with the fact that they probably give you a lot of chances to practice.

I was going to point out which of these statements were jokes and which were serious, but I figured it'd be for fun if you tried to guess. Good luck!

[Phyrox]

I don't think I have realized this in my previous years(?) at MW, but this Yellowlightman seems to be a bit of an a-hole.

[trueblueeyes]

Are you getting your degree from Bovine University too? Tell Mgrexx I said hi. Seriously though, do you really think I care what you think about my vehicles?

You. Drive. A. 1992. Civic.

Enough said. Can we agree to disagree though before we get this thread locked? If you have anything important to say, you can PM me. But enough with the drama queen act please. We've both derailed this thread for too long.

[yellowlightman]

  Are you getting your degree from Bovine University too?  Tell Mgrexx I said hi.  Seriously though, do you really think I care what you think about my vehicles?

Well, obviously you do because you're getting so upset about it. Like a few posts back:

Oh please, that has been my problem with you from the start. You have gone out of your way to knock on cars you don't like and automotive sports that *you* don't approve of. It is annoying when you have spent a long time perfecting what you do, and some a-hole who has probably never worked on a car in his life can hide behind a computer screen and make fun of it.

Anyways, I made attempts to have a discussion with you but you still have yet to give any evidence against my claim that the Japanese make the best all around/value for money cars. Comparing them to Ferrari's doesn't count.

You. Drive. A. 1992. Civic. 

Pop Quiz: What do '92 Civics have that your '03 Mustang doesn't?

Modern (actually, ahead of it's time) suspension, double wishbone suspension.

Superior build quality and reliability: I just replaced the original clutch... it had 200k on it. The motor's never been rebuilt and doesn't leak or burn oil.

Mileage: Screw hybrids, I can get 40mpg on a freeway-driven tank of gas

Sporty Interior: The Mustang interior looks like it belongs in a minivan

Resale: A Civic will hold it's value far better than a Mustang

You might dismiss them as econobox's, but even the lowliest Japanese car has better engineering and technology behind it than comparable American cars. Not that it always matters, the Z06 has push-rods (hah) and rear leaf springs (seriously, wtf) and still performs better than lots of cars with more modern technology.

[trueblueeyes]

A word of warning for those who might be in the market for a used car, truck, or SUV anytime within the next year.  There are well over a thousand vehicles at an auction lot here being prepped for sale.  All were damaged in some way as a result of Hurricanes Katrina or Rita, and now belong to various insurance companies.  The damage varies from total destruction by flying debris, to total water immersion, to limited flooding.  There have been crews out every day cleaning the cars.  So please, please do a carfax or some other check if you buy any used vehicles.  Remember, some states don't require salvage titles or even that original titles list flood damage.  Some may be great deals, but I'd woudn't want to think of the electrical problems that could occur with a flooded car.  Just something to keep in mind.  It does make me sad every time I drive buy and see that silver NSX though.    I'm betting that wasn't a happy owner.

338168[/snapback]

I didn't want this to get lost because of comedy hour. Who knows the specifics when it comes to selling or buying salvaged vehicles in your state?

Unfortunately, in Mississippi, auto dealers are allowed to rebuild and resell vehicles that have been totaled. They need not be inspected by a professional. A quick trip to the nearest Highway Patrol office, a twenty five dollar fee, and a five minute lookover is enough to get a salvage title. Ten more minutes and a few documents later (photographic or written evidence detailing the rebuild), you can get a clear title from the same place. Unscrupulous dealers wouldn't have a problem faking the paperwork. So I would expect to see a lot of these vehicles make their way through Mississippi and to other markets. Hopefully other states do more to protect their consumers.

[pfunk]

Easy folks,

thiers nothing wrong with driving a civic, cars are marketed twards a certain group, just like any product. That includes quality believe it or not, If a company can get away with less content and the same price they will.

For example A1 said domestic cars are a rattle trap after a year or so. He drives a German car witch are "layer" built (think of paper stacked) and engineered,,,Pros are tight tolerances, cons are extremly heavy cars for thier size and high build costs which lead to the customer. A ferrarri with any kind of miles is a rattle trap too, sit in a 512 with 50,000 on it, thiers a reason why the exhaust is loud

The only problem I see with the Mustang is Ford doesnt want to spend the cash and go to a suplier (ZF) for a decent IRS which would make it a world class car, but the big but is why spend the money when were selling a million of thiese allready, would you????

[Agent ONE]

Easy folks,

thiers nothing wrong with driving a civic, cars are marketed twards a certain group, just like any product. That includes quality believe it or not, If a company can get away with less content and the same price they will.

For example A1 said domestic cars are a rattle trap after a year or so. He drives a German car witch are "layer" built (think of paper stacked) and engineered,,,Pros are tight tolerances, cons are extremly heavy cars for thier size and high build costs which lead to the customer.  A ferrarri with any kind of miles is a rattle trap too, sit in a 512 with 50,000 on it, thiers a reason why the exhaust is loud

The only problem I see with the Mustang is Ford doesnt want to spend the cash and go to a suplier (ZF) for a decent IRS which would make it a world class car, but the big but is why spend the money when were selling a million of thiese allready, would you????

338205[/snapback]

I dunno man, I drove a 308 (chick I know had one in High School) a few times... Had over 100k on it, no vibration at idle, just engine scream while driving, no rattles at all. I blame the "rattle box - American car" thing on excessive use of plastic in the interior. I look at my M3 and its lether and flet mostly... Even the center console has plastic but the hinge has ball bearings in it for smoth movement.

[Agent ONE]

I don't think I have realized this in my previous years(?) at MW, but this Yellowlightman seems to be a bit of an a-hole.

338174[/snapback]

Yellowlightman says it as it is... The hand of CROM guides him.

[Stamen0083]

It does make me sad every time I drive buy and see that silver NSX though.    I'm betting that wasn't a happy owner.

338168[/snapback]

It's heart wrenching, for sure, but have you looked at it in details though? If you know someone from a competent shop, just spend some money fixing up the car and all will be well. At least you know that you're getting a mechanically excellent car.

Peter: Thanks. :-) I like your NSX's too. I still need a Tamiya NSX Type R though. ;-) And I would kill for a Rosso NSX kit!

[bsu legato]

Not to distract some people from their flame wars for a moment, but yesterday I had to "put down" my winter beater. It was a POS I inherited from my parents, and I nearly got a year out of it, but it finally drove its last kilometer. I won't miss it, but the problem is that snow can't be more than a few weeks away and there's no way in hell I'm re-registering the GT for the winter. It looks like there's some car shopping in my immediate future.

[pfunk]

Easy folks,

thiers nothing wrong with driving a civic, cars are marketed twards a certain group, just like any product. That includes quality believe it or not, If a company can get away with less content and the same price they will.

For example A1 said domestic cars are a rattle trap after a year or so. He drives a German car witch are "layer" built (think of paper stacked) and engineered,,,Pros are tight tolerances, cons are extremly heavy cars for thier size and high build costs which lead to the customer.  A ferrarri with any kind of miles is a rattle trap too, sit in a 512 with 50,000 on it, thiers a reason why the exhaust is loud

The only problem I see with the Mustang is Ford doesnt want to spend the cash and go to a suplier (ZF) for a decent IRS which would make it a world class car, but the big but is why spend the money when were selling a million of thiese allready, would you????

338205[/snapback]

I dunno man, I drove a 308 (chick I know had one in High School) a few times... Had over 100k on it, no vibration at idle, just engine scream while driving, no rattles at all. I blame the "rattle box - American car" thing on excessive use of plastic in the interior. I look at my M3 and its lether and flet mostly... Even the center console has plastic but the hinge has ball bearings in it for smoth movement.

338217[/snapback]

Id say thats a rare bird (308) a lot of those cars required maint is to tighten things up every so many miles (really on any car) German cars use the same content (thats not leather BTW) as american cars. The reason quality is higher is the way its assembled, US makers (along with Japan (which was who started this way of building to save cash) like to have big chunks of the car arrive at the plant to just bolt in and go, like a whole instrument panel, whole console, ect... the germans (and most high end manufacturers) dont take this aproach, they actually assemble the cars components at the plant in the car as it rolls down the line. This process is a lot more expensive (hence the high price tags) and doesnt lend itself to high production numbers, if your pissing out 500 cars a day the cost would be astronomical in employee costs, thats what Im trying to say is that, its not the content or material, its how you put it together, same with engines, transmissions, ect.......that ZF trans in your car is the same manufacturer and components that goes into a camaro,,,,,its just put in with a lot more "care"

[reddsun1]

The irony is not lost on me here: an awful lot of those Japanese cars--Toyota specifically--that are built to such "higher" degrees of quality are built here in the US plant in Kentucky. Same for BMW, with their plant in Georgia [i don't know what respective models ea. plant builds though].

After seeing a TV special on Lamborghini, I can better appreciate just why their cars sell for such astronomical figures. You're paying for man-hours, that's for sure. Their cars--and I imagine it's much the same for Ferrari--are assembled largely by hand. And the amount of "TLC" that goes into the building process! The steps to which they go: like hand grinding to deburr every engine block, assigning each engine to only one builder, etc; it's pretty amazing.

[Hurricane29]

Ferrari's have hand buitl engines, I'm pretty sure. And I think its the BMW Z cars that are built in the Georgia plant.

[pfunk]

Ferrari's have hand buitl engines, I'm pretty sure. And I think its the BMW Z cars that are built in the Georgia plant.

338260[/snapback]

99% of engines are "hand" built as in assembled, hand built really means hand selecting components and hand measuring every one instead of 1 out of 200

[yellowlightman]

The irony is not lost on me here: an awful lot of those Japanese cars--Toyota specifically--that are built to such "higher" degrees of quality are built here in the US plant in Kentucky.  Same for BMW, with their plant in Georgia [i don't know what respective models ea. plant builds though]. 

338257[/snapback]

I think it has more to do with the management than the country of assembly. The majority of Camry's and Accords sold in this country are manufactured in the U.S. as well as a lot of other Japanese models. Contrast this with most American companies that have many of their cars assembled in Mexico.

It doesn't matter where you have your car built, if your company cares enough it'll be built well. But chances are if you're cutting costs and moving production to Mexico, quality probably isn't a top priority...

[peter]

It does make me sad every time I drive buy and see that silver NSX though.      I'm betting that wasn't a happy owner.

338168[/snapback]

It's heart wrenching, for sure, but have you looked at it in details though? If you know someone from a competent shop, just spend some money fixing up the car and all will be well. At least you know that you're getting a mechanically excellent car.

Peter: Thanks. :-) I like your NSX's too. I still need a Tamiya NSX Type R though. ;-) And I would kill for a Rosso NSX kit!

338219[/snapback]

Good luck on those two...boy are they hard to find. Tamiya's NSX-R was re-released a few years ago (Fujimi's 2002 NSX-R sucks) but they're gone again. That Rosso kit will be hard too because the factory burnt down. I still see them once in a while, but too expensive (sometimes around $300 USD).

Hey Agent One, what year's your M3 again? My friend let me borrow his for a couple of weeks while he went over seas. I think it might have been a

'95. He said it was European-spec (280 hp?). The engine bay defintely looked a little different than other M3s I've seen. Damn, it was a fun car to drive. Learned how to heel-toe on it, haha. Here's the only picture I have of it at the bottom right. Just goofing around at the local race track.

Another note...you can barely see the front bumper of that other M3 on the left. That driver is *ucking loaded. He had just purchased a brand new M3 and two or three months later, he flew in a couple of Hartge technicians to install this monster motor. I think all said and done, he'd dumped over $100,000 CAD into the car. Rich bastard. One of about 30 cars he owns.

Edited October 20, 2005 by peter

[Stamen0083]

That Rosso kit will be hard too because the factory burnt down.  I still see them once in a while, but too expensive (sometimes around $300 USD).

338277[/snapback]

$300 if I'm lucky. Best1Hobby has 'em for $500 bucks a piece.

Too bad too. The kit is really amazing, isn't it? There's details down to the latch on the door.

[yellowlightman]

For example A1 said domestic cars are a rattle trap after a year or so. He drives a German car witch are "layer" built (think of paper stacked) and engineered,,,Pros are tight tolerances, cons are extremly heavy cars for thier size and high build costs which lead to the customer.  A ferrarri with any kind of miles is a rattle trap too, sit in a 512 with 50,000 on it, thiers a reason why the exhaust is loud

You're wrong about being heavy for their size.

1999 Z28 Camaro Curb Weight: 3574 lbs.

1999 328is Coupe Curb Weight: 3142 lbs. (Sedan is 3197 lbs)

1999 Mustang V6 Curb Weight: 3069 lbs. (Couldn't find the weight for the GT, which woudl be more applicable)

1999 Audi A4 1.8T Curb Weight: 2998 lbs. (the Quattro is 3241 lbs)

[Stamen0083]

2006 BMW M3 curb weight: 3415 lbs.

Yeah, that's pretty heavy.

[yellowlightman]

2006 BMW M3 curb weight: 3415 lbs.

Yeah, that's pretty heavy.

338318[/snapback]

I'd be interested to know where you got that number, considering I didn't think much was known about the '06 M3. The numbers from my previous post were from edmunds.com, which I forgot to mention.

2005 Mustang GT: 3450 lbs

2005 Pontiac GTO: 3725 lbs

You were saying about heavy...?