neon genesis evangelion

[Gubaba]

I just wonder what VFTF1 and Keith are going to say when they see the EVA-03 section in Eva 2.0...

[VFTF1]

Regarding Rei - that is a good point about Lilith being the mother of humanity...except that Rei is the mother of humanity, not Lilith. In fact, remember the elevator scene, when Shinji tells Rei he saw her cleaning and that she looked like a mother. Rei is embarassed.

Rei also does not know what exactly she is. She does, however, have latent memories - I think. Memories that were perhaps somehow etched upon Yui's DNA... and here's something I might be flat out wrong on - but I always thought that Rei wasa clone of Yui. That Gendo made her for his sexual and personal pleasure, and that he lied to Shinji when he said that he didn't need photographs, that what was in his heart was enough. In fact, he needed a clone.

As for my earlier quote: well then why does Ritsuko flat out say that there is one child whose core can be prepared immediately? This clearly implies that an EVA cannot at this time be readied for any of the other children in the class. Probably because they don't have any good candidates for the core.

Also - I always got the feeling that NERV spies on all the children to get good psychological profiles on them all, so as to help in the eventually preperation of an EVA for them. So naturally NERV knew about Toji's compassion for his sister and would use that to their benefit.

Finally - from a literary standpoint:

One of the key story elements in NGE is the revelation that EVA-02 is Asuka's mom and that EVA-01 is Shinji's mom. And this goes a long way in suddenly making clear why the show gives us such a detailed history of Shinji's family troubles, and even features Asuka pretending to talk to her mom on the phone and crying and calling out her mom's name in her sleep.

What am I getting at? Just this:

During the episode where Toji is chosen as the fourth Children, we the audience do not know about Shinji and Asuka's moms being in the EVAs. But we have this huge backstory that features both of their mothers and their complex family relationships and traumas. These backstories do not turn out to be arbitrary, but are masterfully "completed" by the revelation that the mothers are in EVAs. Toji - at this point in the show, ALSO has his backstory, which features his sister. The only mention he ever makes of his mother - by implication - is that he doesn't have anybody to cook for him. Beyond that, the psychological drama of Toji plays out viz-a-viz his sister, just like the psychological drama of Asuka and Shinji play out viz-a-viz their mothers (and in Shinji's case, his living father). Even Rei's psychological drama - her sexual exploitation by Gendo, her strange motherly bond of affection to Shinji, her struggle with her humanity - all of it as shown in the series becomes ultimately tied up in the EVA 00.

Story wise - the Evangelions are manifestations of the psychological struggles of the pilots in their every day normal lives.

Yet I am supposed to believe the following is true:

Everything NGE shows us about Shinji's family life becomes manifest in EVA-01.

Everything NGE shows us about Asuka's family life becomes manifest in EVA-02.

Everything NGE shows us about Rei's family life becomes manifest in EVA-00

Everything NGE shows us about Toji's family life is POINTLESS AND HAS NO BEARING AT ALL ON EVA-03

??

That makes zero sense. Zilch.

Pete

Edited December 3, 2009 by VFTF1

[Freiflug88]

I didn't remember the line about Ritsuko flat out saying that there is one child whose core can be prepared immediately. Then again maybe it wasn't supposed to be taken literally? I know for instance that Anno was shocked that people misundertood his intent when Misato was shown crying with a gun in her hand immediatly after Kaji's death and reedited the scene in the Evangelion Renewal. Considering how impersonal Gendo and Ritsuko are about treating people saying "there is one child whose core can be prepared immediately" could just be another way of saying their is one child we can use immediately.

If you want to take the line literally though we still don't know what all is needed for a child to synch with a core. As you point out there definately seems to be psychological manifestions involved and according to Eva geeks about Episode 17:

Ritsuko and Gendo state in Episode 04 that there is no candidate they can use following Shinji's disappearance and prior to Asuka's arrival (Rei was still in bandages at that stage). There is no stated reason for the choice of Toji, once again leaving the question "Do they select the pilot or the soul first?" unanswered.

So obiviously something had to have happened to make Touji available as a pilot between Episode 4 and Episode 17. Story wise though I would argue that Touji's back story does have great bearing on him for his deceision to become a EVA pilot, but he never really pilots EVA for it to become manifest in EVA unit 03 regardless of whose soul is in the core. Compared to the other three pilots Toji is the most "normal" and socially successful. He is the athletic jock but not a complete jerk to the otaku nerds, the class rep who every guy finds attractive has a crush on only him, and he doesn't seek the praise of dead parents to him he simply lost a loving family that he never knew to Second Impact. Without his wounded sister he actually seems to have a pretty nice independant life that he can be happy about in this parentless world. His sister however is wounded and apparently getting worse causing him to feel like he has failed as a brother, but after meeting with Ritsuko during lunch in Episode 17 he is suddenly shown to feel uplifted. So its obvious that he is all to happy to pilot EVA for the sake of his sister getting the best possible hospital care.

Which brings me to the significance of Touji's back story: its a tradegy that Touji became an EVA pilot with the best intentions: to get his sister the best care possible after she become a crippled causality in the first battle between a Berserk EVA-01 and an Angel. Instead of becoming the next EVA pilot though he becomes the next crippled casuality from a battle between the Berserk EVA-01 and an Angel just like his sister. So Touji is left just as psychologically crippled as he is physically crippled because his whole purpose in life was to protect and look out for his sister, but now he is just as crippled and helpless as she is and he can't bear to have her ever learn the truth, that he risked his life and became crippled just for the sake of her. So regardless of whose soul is actually in the core we the audience understand the tragic irony of Touji psychological scars as the crippled pilot of EVA-03 thanks to Touji's family life with his crippled sister.

[VFTF1]

Considering how impersonal Gendo and Ritsuko are about treating people saying "there is one child whose core can be prepared immediately" could just be another way of saying their is one child we can use immediately.

Actually - in the same scene that this dialogue takes place, Ritsuki reacts with great emotion (womanly jealousy) when Gendo tells Rei that he will take her to lunch ("It's time to eat"/imlication is "we're going to eat now"). They ARE emotional people. It's just that Ritsuko herself never talks much about herself (which Misato notes and she admits), and when she DOES talk about herself (episode with the MAGI occupied by the Angels), it's to say that she, unlike her mother, is a scientist foremost, while her mom was a scientist, a mother and a woman (the three components of the MAGI/"the human experience") - but of course, this statement of Ristuko's is a facade - she is a woman, she needs manly love, and she's jealous of Rei. And her jealousy boils over in the scene where she makes the statement about the core/"one child."

according to Eva geeks about Episode 17 Ritsuko and Gendo state in Episode 04 that there is no candidate they can use following Shinji's disappearance and prior to Asuka's arrival (Rei was still in bandages at that stage). There is no stated reason for the choice of Toji, once again leaving the question "Do they select the pilot or the soul first?" unanswered.

Evageeks is wrong again it seems - or at least they don't seem to be thinking things out as much as they should - "wrong" is too strong and actually quite a pointless word in this discussion.

When Shinji runs away in episode 4, there IS a candidate they can use in his place -Rei. Who cares if she's still in bandages? She was in bandages in episode 01 and Gendo did not hesitate to prepare to have her used when Shinji refused to pilot the EVA. Putting aisde the fact that he can always grow another Rei if one is destroyed, the point is that Rei CAN be used to pilot EVA-01.

The only reason that they want SHINJI is because of his synch ratio - and the better Synch ration means that the EVA can be used for Gendo's purposes and further the goal of Instrumentality and godhood. This is why Shinji is important.

It's not because he's the only one who can pilot EVA-01, it's because of his synch ration. However - remember that even that goes down when he's stressing.

Anyways - Toji comes along at a time when Shinji is stated to be emotionally unstable and unfit to pilot EVA due to the trauma that he went through in the Angel-Shadow.

Asuka is useless (bad synch ratio) and Rei is preoccupied. The EVA-03 is on the way - so why not try a new Child out?

The question "do they select the pilot of the soul first" IS answered. In Toji's case - they select both at the same time (Toji because they can use his sister and the emotional bond the two have). In Shinji and Asuka's case obviously the soul of selected first - the pilots come later.

after meeting with Ritsuko during lunch in Episode 17 he is suddenly shown to feel uplifted. So its obvious that he is all to happy to pilot EVA for the sake of his sister getting the best possible hospital care.

Wow. Amazing how two people watching the same thing can walk away with the opposite feeling.

I did not feel Toji was uplifted at the prospect of piloting EVA-03. He comes back to class pale and stone-faced. He stares blankly at the furnace after school and mechanically tosses a basketball around. If you want "uplifted" - look to Kenske's begging Shinji to pilot the EVA. He hasn't even gotten an official proposal, but as soon as he's heard that there's a new EVA to be piloted, he's practically bursting at the seems to do it.

Toji does it ONLY because he figured that since they want him - he can ask them to give his sister the best hospital care - something he otherwise couldn't have done.

But I wouldn't say he's particularly uplifted about it.

And why should he be? He saw what Shinji went through fighting the purple penis angel. Kenske seems to have gotten over that and gone back to being a mecha-loving otaku. Toji is sensitive enough to know that piloting EVA is no uplifting matter.

As to him being a jock that everyone loves...mm...dunno. Yes - sort of. But...Asuka certainly has no love for him - and for that matter he's not swarmed by girls. Class Rep likes him a lot, but she's not about to come out and say it bluntly... I'd say Toji is more somewhere along the lines of a regular guy who'se a bit more manly than Shinji.... A variation of Otaku.

Shinji, Kenske and Toji are all otaku - they are all variations of nerdiness. Toji is the nerd who is good looking and seems to be a jock and a bully and a tough guy but deep in his heart is pensive, sensitive, family oriented, quiet and alone.... That's a type of nerdiness too.

Which brings me to the significance of Touji's back story: its a tradegy that Touji became an EVA pilot with the best intentions: to get his sister the best care possible after she become a crippled causality in the first battle between a Berserk EVA-01 and an Angel. Instead of becoming the next EVA pilot though he becomes the next crippled casuality from a battle between the Berserk EVA-01 and an Angel just like his sister. So Touji is left just as psychologically crippled as he is physically crippled because his whole purpose in life was to protect and look out for his sister, but now he is just as crippled and helpless as she is and he can't bear to have her ever learn the truth, that he risked his life and became crippled just for the sake of her. So regardless of whose soul is actually in the core we the audience understand the tragic irony of Touji psychological scars as the crippled pilot of EVA-03 thanks to Touji's family life with his crippled sister.

I didn't catch this - but I'm going to watch the episode now...but Toji ends up crippled?! And his sister already was crippled!? That's sad.

Pete

[Freiflug88]

[quote name='VFTF1' date='Dec 3 2009, 04:22 PM' post='810055'

I didn't catch this - but I'm going to watch the episode now...but Toji ends up crippled?! And his sister already was crippled!? That's sad.

Pete

I though you were rewatching EVA for a second time? I hope I didn't spoil the episode for your first viewing. I obviouly forgot alot about Evangelion since I watched it years ago, but the cripple factor I definitely remember.

Touji's sister was in the first battle thanks to the Berserk EVA-01 according to Touji and Touji gets crippled as the EVA-01 controlled by the Dummy Plug system yanks out the EVA-03's entry plug and crushs it. So in the end both Sister and brother are left wounded and apparently confined to hospital beds as cripples.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Gubaba]

Evageeks is wrong again it seems - or at least they don't seem to be thinking things out as much as they should - "wrong" is too strong and actually quite a pointless word in this discussion.

When Shinji runs away in episode 4, there IS a candidate they can use in his place -Rei. Who cares if she's still in bandages? She was in bandages in episode 01 and Gendo did not hesitate to prepare to have her used when Shinji refused to pilot the EVA. Putting aisde the fact that he can always grow another Rei if one is destroyed, the point is that Rei CAN be used to pilot EVA-01.

Possibly. They always seem unsure about whether or not Rei cold pilot EVA-01. (She does in the comics, but not very well.)

The question "do they select the pilot of the soul first" IS answered. In Toji's case - they select both at the same time (Toji because they can use his sister and the emotional bond the two have). In Shinji and Asuka's case obviously the soul of selected first - the pilots come later.

So...it's settled that they use his sister? And that the soul is placed in the Eva well after it is "born" or "created" or however they do it?

I thought these were still unanswered (and probably unanswerable) questions.

I did not feel Toji was uplifted at the prospect of piloting EVA-03. He comes back to class pale and stone-faced. He stares blankly at the furnace after school and mechanically tosses a basketball around. If you want "uplifted" - look to Kenske's begging Shinji to pilot the EVA. He hasn't even gotten an official proposal, but as soon as he's heard that there's a new EVA to be piloted, he's practically bursting at the seems to do it.

Toji does it ONLY because he figured that since they want him - he can ask them to give his sister the best hospital care - something he otherwise couldn't have done.

But I wouldn't say he's particularly uplifted about it.

I'd agree with that. He's doing it out of duty, not because he wants to.

I didn't catch this - but I'm going to watch the episode now...but Toji ends up crippled?! And his sister already was crippled!? That's sad.

I think Freiflug is assuming that Toji's sister is crippled because she's in the hospital for so long.

As for Toji himself...in episode 19, when he tells the Class Rep to tell his sister that nothing's wrong with him, look at his legs.

[VFTF1]

Oh I'm not watcing NGE for the second time - more like the two hundred four million seventy seven thousand gazzilionth time The thing is - I never anywhere saw that the sister was crippled. Hospitalized yes - but it was never made clear what her injuries were. As for Toji..well...I don't remember him being crippled either.

But anyways - I've just watched episode 18 now.

So...Ritusko, while driving with Misato and talking says:

"Four Children will be easy to handle. We put his sister into the EVA 03 core

No.

Ok.

I'm just teasing :)

Of course she doesn't say that or anything even close

But she DOES say:

There are still some things to be worked out

And this is a response to Misato asking if everything with EVA-03 is ready. Naturally - it's anybody's guess as to what this means. It could mean any of a zillion minor technical problems to any ominous evil soul sucking plot schemes...

And on this note -

I think it's VERY telling that THIS is the episode in which we get Kaji's speech to Shinji where Kaji says:

No one can ever understand themselves or other people 100%

Kaji's speech, where he brings into doubt the idea of 100% understanding of people - and where he SPECIFICALLY tells Shinji "you only think you know your father. In fact, you don't know anything" is are perfect inner monologue that can be interpretted to reference the entire anime.

Certainly it must be held as a light upon this episode - it tells us that the questions we have surrounding EVA-03 will never be 100% answered.

Final point:

I have a suspicion that Gendo is behind this "failure" of EVA-03. He wanted to use the dummy plug all along - he's itching to use it last episode. This episode, with Shinji's recalcitrance in the face of EVA-03 - a recalcistrance that his father could have counted on - the excuse to use the dummy plug appears.

Gendo is growing impatient with people and the short comings of people - the dummy plug is a scientific advance that tries to take the unpredictability and recalcitrance of human behavior out of the equation.

Next episode, we'll find out exactly what's up with Toji in the hospital, and what is said about his sister.

Off to watch the next episode...sadly - I am out of Chicken Curry. Well..actually Turkey Curry...with rice. It's all gone. And I have no potato chips. I do have a donut down stairs but I don't like eating donuts in bed because it has some frosting on it that'll fall on me and the bed and get everything dirty and sticky.

And it's hard to sleep with sticky fingers and sticky stuff on the bed and it gets everywhere.

Pete

[VFTF1]

Ok - done with episode 19...

Welll THAT wasn't very informative Although... yeah ...I looked at Toji's leg and saw it wasn't there :( :(

I hope him and Class Rep get married and live happily ever after.

Beyond that - this episode had nothing to do with EVA-03. Toji asks Incho to tell his sister nothing's wrong with him... but he never gets and answer, and the subject dissapears.

He does have a dream with Ayanami and Shinji in it...but the dream is more about Shinji than about him.

And then Misato says he was a mistake

Wah.

Well...

Fine.

I hereby announce that my view on the matter of the core of EVA-03 is, on the basis of episode 18 of NGE, the view espooused by Kaji about the impossibility of knowing yourself and others, about how when you think you know Gendo's plan, you actually know nothing, and finally - since there's so much made of mothers in EVA - that men and women are seperated by an ocean and "woman" means "One that is Far Away" in Japanese.

THAT is the answer to the mystery.

Case closed

Pete

Chief Detective

[Freiflug88]

I think Freiflug is assuming that Toji's sister is crippled because she's in the hospital for so long.

Exactly. We never learn what exactly happened to her, but its safe to assume that her body will never be the same again that is why I just went ahead and labeled her a cripple.

I have a suspicion that Gendo is behind this "failure" of EVA-03. He wanted to use the dummy plug all along - he's itching to use it last episode. This episode, with Shinji's recalcitrance in the face of EVA-03 - a recalcistrance that his father could have counted on - the excuse to use the dummy plug appears.

Pete

I agree there are cases when Gendo seem to conviently know what all is going to happen and I do remember Gendo, Futuyuskia, and Seele were always obessed with keeping with the dead sea scroll's schedule so it does seem plausable that Gendo was able to predict the Angel's infection of EVA-03. Especially when you consider that the other three all happen to be on standby and combat ready with an assigned battle plan from Gendo immediately after the angel reveals itself.

I wouldn't say that he was just itching to use the dummy plug system though, I believe its more like he is happy to have this vital piece part of his plan in place because he predicted that it would be necessary for the coming battle where Shinji will refuse to fight againist the EVA-03. As for dying of the shortcomings of other people I have to partly disagree. Whenever the chips are down Gendo is always the first to show complete confidance that they will get the job done, but then again if he always predicted their success from the beginning through the dead sea scrolls its easy to see why. In fact the only time he really expresses his anger is whenever Shinji refuses to pilot, but it seems to me that he does it because he blames Shinji for Yui dissappearing into the EVA-01's core and sees him as a brat who is just ungrateful of all the sacrifices he and Yui have made for Shinji to be the pilot of EVA-01. I mean after all Yui did knowingly sacrificed her life and love for Gendo for the sake of entrusting the future of humanity to Shinji.

[VFTF1]

In fact the only time he really expresses his anger is whenever Shinji refuses to pilot, but it seems to me that he does it because he blames Shinji for Yui dissappearing into the EVA-01's core and sees him as a brat who is just ungrateful of all the sacrifices he and Yui have made for Shinji to be the pilot of EVA-01. I mean after all Yui did knowingly sacrificed her life and love for Gendo for the sake of entrusting the future of humanity to Shinji.

Yes - and this is one of the best dialogues in the series between Rei and Shinji in episode 19 -

Shinji: He praised me and I thought we understood eachother, and I trusted my father, but he doesn't understand me!

Rei: Did you try to understand him?

Shinji: I tried! I tried!

Rei: You're running away from hard truths again.

Shinji: What's wrong with running away from a world that sucks!?

And really - I agree with Shinji. Gendo is "right" - but so what. I mean - if humanity sucks so bad that they need the Human Instrumentality Project to evolve - and even then Gendo says that all evolution ultimately ends in death - then that's a pretty sucky reality. Much better to go to a sci-fi movie, take a hike in the beautiful mountains or do something else - ANYTHING else but take part in the madness.

The only reason Shinji does keep coming back to pilot EVA is:

1) Sometimes he gets praised - and that makes him feel good (whether by his father, Misato or Ritsuko) - but he quickly realizes how shallow that praise is when those kids laugh at him on the bus ride home.

2) To protect those he loves - like in episode 19

And of course- Kaji is, as usual, right, when he stands around watering watermellons during the huge battle and Shinji says "what are you doing here?" -- to which Kaji responds "that's my line."

It is. Since Shinji is the only one who can save them by piloting EVA - so what is he doing there...?

Anyways - man...is this a great series!

Pete

Edited December 4, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Ok - done with episode 19...

Welll THAT wasn't very informative Although... yeah ...I looked at Toji's leg and saw it wasn't there :( :(

Could've been worse...have you read the comic?

Beyond that - this episode had nothing to do with EVA-03. Toji asks Incho to tell his sister nothing's wrong with him... but he never gets and answer, and the subject dissapears.

He does have a dream with Ayanami and Shinji in it...but the dream is more about Shinji than about him.

And then Misato says he was a mistake

Wah.

Well...

Fine.

I hereby announce that my view on the matter of the core of EVA-03 is, on the basis of episode 18 of NGE, the view espooused by Kaji about the impossibility of knowing yourself and others, about how when you think you know Gendo's plan, you actually know nothing, and finally - since there's so much made of mothers in EVA - that men and women are seperated by an ocean and "woman" means "One that is Far Away" in Japanese.

THAT is the answer to the mystery.

Case closed

Pete

Chief Detective

FINALLY! We agree!

[VFTF1]

have you read the comic?

I have the first manga - in French at that But beyond that - no

FINALLY! We agree!

I'm just happy I got to sign my name as "Chief Detective" - I'd do it more often, but usually it's you who's out solving myseteries while all I'm doing is fawning over anime girls It was exciting to embark on my very own mystery solving quest armed with no knowledge of Japanese, relying on somebody else's subs, and lots of circumstantial evidence! Yay!

Pete

[Gubaba]

I have the first manga - in French at that But beyond that - no

Ah. Volume Six is the one you want to see.

I'm just happy I got to sign my name as "Chief Detective" - I'd do it more often, but usually it's you who's out solving myseteries while all I'm doing is fawning over anime girls It was exciting to embark on my very own mystery solving quest armed with no knowledge of Japanese, relying on somebody else's subs, and lots of circumstantial evidence! Yay!

Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find out who shot Kaji.

[VFTF1]

who shot Kaji.

Obassa.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Obassa.

Pete

Ritsuko's mother...?

[VFTF1]

No. The Obasa - the one Kaji keeps meeting up with to get new orders from and to discuss his spy info with.

She shot him.

That's because Kaji said "oh - it's you" and looked at ease. He only looks at ease when he sees Obasa.

Pete

[Gubaba]

No. The Obasa - the one Kaji keeps meeting up with to get new orders from and to discuss his spy info with.

She shot him.

That's because Kaji said "oh - it's you" and looked at ease. He only looks at ease when he sees Obasa.

Pete

Like I said: Ritsuko's mother.

They never show Ritsuko's mother actually tossing herself off the balcony. Which proves CONCLUSIVELY that she didn't kill herself. It was all a coverup, and now she's feeding Kaji information. After all, Kaji brought Ristuko a cat trinket after meeting with the old woman. WHO ELSE KNOWS THAT RITSUKO LIKES CATS??? And the old lady has cats near her as well. Like mother, like daughter.

Otherwise, just as Toji's sister is a pointless character unless her soul's inside EVA-03, the old lady is a pointless character unless she's Ritsuko's mother.

[VFTF1]

Like I said: Ritsuko's mother.

They never show Ritsuko's mother actually tossing herself off the balcony. Which proves CONCLUSIVELY that she didn't kill herself. It was all a coverup, and now she's feeding Kaji information. After all, Kaji brought Ristuko a cat trinket after meeting with the old woman. WHO ELSE KNOWS THAT RITSUKO LIKES CATS??? And the old lady has cats near her as well. Like mother, like daughter.

Otherwise, just as Toji's sister is a pointless character unless her soul's inside EVA-03, the old lady is a pointless character unless she's Ritsuko's mother.

Ho ho ho Nice try at ridiculing my previous theories

But it doesn't hold water because we DO see Ritsuko's mother - we see her in the episode where the Angel takes over the Magi. Remeber the brain inside the computer? THAT is Ritsuko's mother.

Her brain is now literally in the computer - that is the brain taken out of her skull. It's not some ornament or artificial brain because there would be no reason to make it LOOK like a human brain.

In fact - the human brain is too complex to replicate - but apparently you CAN now stick wires into it and use electrical stimulation to merge it with a computer.

So - it can't be Ritsuko's mom because she definitiely dead - proof of which is the fact that her brain is shown in the computer

Pete

[Keith]

A couple things:

-Rei actually "is" Lilith, and it's doubtful those latent memories are Yui's, they are her own. or rather if you take it in this context.. Look at the very end, and you will see Yui Ikari (a human) has become Eva's description of a "God." What does she do? She leaves Earth knowing Shinji will restore things to as normal as they can be with the EArth's surface being fried. Yui's purpose all along wasn't "Instrumentality," or necessarily to create a better world for Shinji to live in (at least not in a conventional sense). Yui knew that Seele was dead set on setting those events in motion. And being as closely involved as she was, knew that at some point the form of existence that humanity continued in would come into question. Her goal in joining with Unit-01, as well as the main agenda that Gendo carried out (aside from attempting to hijack the original Adam & Lilith), was to become a god, go out into space, and initiate a "first impact" somewhere else that could sustain life, and start that whole process of Angels/humans evolving along seperate paths again. Taking things into that context, then you can extrapilate that Lilith (Rei) has already done this, and likely at some time in the distant path was indeed someone's mother.

-There's a couple factors in choosing Touji as a pilot that you guys are neglecting. The final key in starting Instrumentality is the destrado (desire to die) of the pilot. Yes Touji was a semi-normal character overall, but he was also a character that could be easily pushed over the edge by the loss of his sister. That one event could easily make him of like to Shinji & Asuka. And assuming Pete & I are correct in the choice for the core of Unit-03, then who's to say Ritsuko/Gendo didn't already start the process of placing he soul in the core. If it really came down to it, would Touji really have any choice but to get itno that cockpit?

-Gendo had nothing to do with Unit-03 being taken over, that was entirely the fault of the careless pilot flying it to Neo Tokyo. As to why it didn't manifest itself until Touji got in, that may have something to do with the operational limits put on the Eva, or maybe it was indeed another attempt at understanding humanity. But we know that thing didn't ship with a core, otherwise one wouldn't have had to have been prepared.

-There's absolutely no question or conjecture about Ritsuko's mom being the basis of the Magi. However it wasn't literally her brain placed in it, but a copy. Likely the Magi was the true prototype for the dummy plug system, Gehirn/Nirv's first attempt at an artificial soul. And it wasn't the human brain that couldn't be copied, it was the soul.

[VFTF1]

However it wasn't literally her brain placed in it, but a copy

I am skeptical about this for one simple reason: if NERV could make an accurate copy of a human brain - then why would it need to build a giant super computer that is meant to mimic a human brain? Why go to the trouble of trying to combine a computer and a human brain, if you have the technology to make an exact replica of the human brain?

The very fact the MAGI is a computer - an artificial human creation that tries to mimic the human person by being hooked up to a human brain and having a personality "encoded" (to the extent that that is possible - which is never perfect) - then its' very existence is proof that NERV cannot actually just build a human brain.

The human brain is the most advanced 'natural computer' in existence - human science has insufficient knowledge of how it operates and while it is theoretically possible to postulate that an organization like NERV could gain that knowledge - if it did so - it wouldn't need the MAGI.

Pete

[Gubaba]

-There's absolutely no question or conjecture about Ritsuko's mom being the basis of the Magi. However it wasn't literally her brain placed in it, but a copy. Likely the Magi was the true prototype for the dummy plug system, Gehirn/Nirv's first attempt at an artificial soul. And it wasn't the human brain that couldn't be copied, it was the soul.

I think Pete was responding to my joke with another joke...

[VFTF1]

"Jokes often need to be taken seriously to get to the truth." - Socrates speaking in Plato's Republic, Book VI, on the subject of men and women getting naked and doing aerobics training together.

EDIT: Translation - I really do think that is her brain we see in the Magi. I'm not dogmatic about it, mind you - but that's the impression I got. It's her brain, encased in some kind of super-conductor and you can stick wires into the various lobes and neurons etc to do stuff...

Pete

Edited December 4, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

"Jokes often need to be taken seriously to get to the truth." - Socrates speaking in Plato's Republic, Book VI, on the subject of men and women getting naked and doing aerobics training together.

Pete

Hmm...yeah, I'm with Keith here. I don't think it was a brain, it just looked like one...unless of course, they cloned Dr. Akagi's brain. Her REAL brain probably was in no condition to be placed in a computer after falling several stories.

[VFTF1]

Ok - that's a fair point.

I think I'm just under the influene of Isaac Asimov's Fantastic Voyage II where people travel into some dude's brain. It's a 200 page biologoy lesson on the complexities of the human brain (and how to ignore Plankt's Constant) and it just made me think "wow! Cloning a brain is super hard so it must be a copy."

But I guess when you build super synthetic robots like the EVA....it's kind of a given that cloning or replicating a human brain is also something you know how to do.

Although...the only one whose brain is actually grown is Rei, right? And she isn't exactly very naturally human insofar as she seems to lack volition. She seems programmed. And insofar as she sometimes questions her surrounding reality - she is more like an animal whose instinct is naturally to die for humanity than a human being who can choose their path...

Pete

[Freiflug88]

Her goal in joining with Unit-01, as well as the main agenda that Gendo carried out (aside from attempting to hijack the original Adam & Lilith), was to become a god, go out into space, and initiate a "first impact" somewhere else that could sustain life, and start that whole process of Angels/humans evolving along seperate paths again.

Spreading life to another planet was not part of Yui's goal. Yui told Fuyutsuki herself that:

"Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it. Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives..."

She clearly states that humans can only live on this planet. Spreading life to another younger planet probably wouldn't create a new humanity, but new life in the EVA-01s image. Human or not such new life would have a few billion years at most and then all that was sacrificed on creating an eternal proof of humanity's existance is lost.

I do believe Yui was wrong about the "lonely existance" bit though. We all know that Gendo's plan was to somehow become one with Yui well shortly after Yui dissapears Gendo renames Gehirn into Nerv with the slogan "God's in his heaven, all is right with the world" taken from Pippa Passes and the goal to become one with god. Now it can't be just a coincendance that this slogan describes exactly what EVA-01 as a "god" does in the end of EoE so it seems Gendo had to have known about Yui's plan to journey to space for eternity as he planned to unite with her. Gendo seems to have gotten his wish as he is last seen being devoured and assimulated not by the physical EvA-01, but by its spirit as Rei's soul collectors standby to watch. Considering that EVA-01 was the one and only prototype Evangelion that had an exposed mouth leads crediance to the idea that Gendo wanted EVA-01 to devour his soul from the begining as an artifcial S2 engine could always have been installed eventually to EVA-01.

Also if Gendo and Yui do stay united as one forvever in the EVA-01 rather then split into new races of angels and humans they will not only remain as proof of humanity's existance, but proof that their can be coexistance rather then separation between humans and angels. Remember that Anno borrowed many ideas about humanity's relationship with the so called "First Ancestral" race and Angels from Macross's ideas of Protoculture and Zentradi.

As to why it didn't manifest itself until Touji got in, that may have something to do with the operational limits put on the Eva, or maybe it was indeed another attempt at understanding humanity. But we know that thing didn't ship with a core, otherwise one wouldn't have had to have been prepared.

The angel probably released that the best opprunity to strike would be with a pilot as a hostage as it sealed up entry plug with goo to prevent it from being ejected to safety. If the angels learned anything about humanity and the EVAs by that point it would have had to been that their strength lies with coorpration and that they would be hesitante to attack their own. Since the angels can no doubt sense the other EVAs he had to have know that worst case scenario he would be fighting against 3 EVAs, but with a fellow EVA pilot as a hostage chances are at least one them would hesitate to fight for fear of harming their comrade.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Freiflug88

[VFTF1]

She clearly states that humans can only live on this planet.

Here we need a Japanese speaker to clear things up for us, because I cannot believe that Yui literally meant that human beings cannot live on any other planet than Earth. Gendo himself contradicts this when he's in Antarctica with Fuyutski. They talk about how human beings can't live in a world like the post-second impact one in Antarctica, but thanks to science - which is their creation - they do live there.

I'm ignoring the other obvious points like the fact that it is logical to simply infer that humans can live where-ever Earth like conditions are present - such as in encapsulated space stations etc.

But Gendo himself sees science as the tool with which mankind can make the uninhabitable habitable.

I think Yui was speaking aliterally - I think she just meant that people are limited to their lives here and now while EVA is eternal.

Also if Gendo and Yui do stay united as one forvever in the EVA-01 rather then split into new races of angels and humans they will not only remain as proof of humanity's existance, but proof that their can be coexistance rather then separation between humans and angels. Remember that Anno borrowed many ideas about humanity's relationship with the so called "First Ancestral" race and Angels from Macross's ideas of Protoculture and Zentradi

On that note, the more I consider it, the more I think that the answers to all of the questions we have about Neon Genesis Evangelion are to be found not in Neon Genesis Evangelion - but in the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

I know it's kindo f a stretch - but I get the feeling that all of Neon Genesis Evangelion is like the series ending - that is to say...the series ending makes us think "this is a metaphor" (for what? For the events of EOE) --- but:

a) It only seems like a metaphor to us because it completely breaks down the fourth wall in story telling AND it is presented in a series of monologue and dialogues without a context in a fictional meta-world.

b) EOE itself presents us scenes which are improbable except as revalation, visions if you will of events that are super natural. So what if we "see" them - they are as radically "improbable" as the "metaphorical" scenes in the series ending.

And yet WHY do we insist on thinking of the series ending as a metaphor in contradistinction to the rest of the series? I've already spoken of how elements of each episode can be metaphors for problems of real life in some instances - in fact...you can kind of say the same thing about the whole super robot genre.

Anyways - the whole show uses symbols and images from a world that we, like Kyon, know to be in contradiction to the physical laws of the universe - and yet it is a world that is in perfect harmony with the human soul's deepest yearning and longing for a world of meaning and imagination as opposed to a melancholy, pointless, boring and mundane landscape.

Shinji's anxious rebellion against the meaning of action in his world is a blow against the possibility that the actions will take on the form of the mundane, the routine, and therefore no longer inspirational. His nihilistic pursuit of self-annihilation is a positive function of his refusal to accept "a reality that sucks" as the price for living.

I'm not exactly sure where this line of thought is going - but Gendo kept talking about Instrumentality being the next stage of human evolution. Presumably EVA-01 would become God while humanity would move on to Instrumentality thereby rising beyond their previous existence.

This is not very far fetched when you consider that what today consistutes living human matter was once DEAD matter and that SOME THING HAD TO have transformed dead matter into living matter - dead matter cannot self-evolve into living matter because IT IS DEAD by definition.

We were therefore certainly seeded by something like EVA-01 - the prime mover that made us out of the muck of intstrumentality.

But the muck in NGE falls apart - Shinji chooses individual existence will all its' frailty and shortcomings. Unlike Gendo, Shinji does not wish to evolve or be a god or a higher form of Being - he wishes to be with Misato, to go to a normal school with Asuka and Rei, and to have normal parents who argue about normal mundane things.

He's just like Haruhi Suzumiya who insists on not being interested in human beings - but at critical moments finds herself bound by her feelings for another person - and in fact, finds that ther is nothin beyond it.

Nothing but the lonely existence of the Evangelion God and the super perfection of Instrumentality which in its' state of perfect bliss is effectively no different from annihilation. In this sense, it is regression, not evolution, because it is a return to the muck from which humanity crawled - albeit an eternal muck (in contradistinction to temporary individual lives) but still an inferior muck.

Because after all:

Does eternal existence make for a superior state of being? If one is eternally alone and eternally confined and isolated - is this better than being able to love and have friends and have a meaningful life even if it only lasts for a fragment of the totality of Time/Space?

Shinji chooses the tragic over the sublime.

Yui chooses the sublime over the tragic.

Gendo follows Yui's choice for tragic reasons - because he loves her.

Shinji does not love her in the same way because Shinji is the son. The son is always destined to leave the womb and make his own way while Gendo being the husband who is truly in love is destined to follow that love even into the worse possible places.

In any event - I think that ultimately, if you want to understand EVA - you have to engage in cross-anime examination. It's not enough to look at just what happened in EVA. It's good to think about what was on Anno's mind - but it's also good to look to the genre as a whole since more and more, anime is made not by companies that want to hock a product and need a story to go with the toy, but people who are like Kyon and do not want to let go.

We need to also look at how Ideon treats these matters.

If we want to find out exactly what EVA is about - we need to expand our discussion into something as equally chaotic and riddled with ineuendo as the form with which NGE is presented to us.

Pete

[Keith]

Yui's comments were in speicifc reference to the fragility of human life (i.e. there is only life on this planet), and the "need' to spread it outward, Evangelion being the tool with which to do that. Humans will eventually die, but Evangelion can live forever and spread that life again. The requirements being that a planet with a sun & moon were needed, and that is exactly what she went out searching for, just as Lilith did before her.

You'll noticed Yui slyly left with the Longinus Spear. The spear itself being the key to activating the process in which a first impact could be initiated elsehwere (and thereby starting human/angel life agian with Yui swperating into the white moon/black moon forms from which life spread, yadda yadda). If the whole point was for Yui to merely become immortal, then that was already achieved when she took in the angels core (fruits of life).

Gendo woiuld have actually have had better luck if he would have settled for merging into Unit-02 with Yui. he got a bit greedy though, so instead he decided to take on the form of the original god (replace Adam's soul with his own, and try to become the dominent personality with Lilith). Obviously Rei caught on, said "nuh uh," and kicked him to the curb, while retrieving Adam/Kowaru from Terminal Dogma. Things would have actually ended up somewhat better if he were allowed to succeed, at the very least hte Earth's surface wouldn't have gotten toasted if both he & Yui ran off with the Longinus Spear out into space. And Keel would have been sooo pissed

Which takes us to Instrumentality, which was actually a 'devolution" (are we not men?), not an "evolution." It was literally like being able to jump back into the womb. Seele believed that the path human evoluition had taken was at a stalemate, and had no hope of progress, and would possibly lead to destruction. Their choice instead was to run back & hide in the womb from which life sprang, Lilith's Egg, and become one with "mom/god." In this existence (as we're shown through Shinji being the dominant persona for all life once achieved), there woiuld be no individual thought, everyone would exist as one being, in a form of warm gooey contention.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Keith

[Freiflug88]

According to the Classified Information of the EVA PS2 games the Spear of Longounus is actually a countermeasure to prevent a Seed of Life from sprouting:

The Spear of Longinus

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

It was found in the White Moon with Adam at the South Pole. In essence, the Spear of Longinus is a security device that comes as a set with a Seed of Life.

C. Confidential Information

It is a spear which has a will and is a type of lifeform capable of moving by itself. This is an item close to a god and thus able to put a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity), who holds the power of eternal life, into suspended animation, and this is the reason why the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) does not reach god-status. The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter- measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals.

It is thought that a Spear acting as Lilith's counterpart was separated from it by the shock at the time of First Impact. This Spear has yet to be found. There is a chance that it may have been destroyed.

D. In-Depth Information

For the purpose of opening the Path to God, Gendo and Seele brought Lilith's growth to a point just before the final stage, and to temporarily delay this they are having Nerv transport the Spear of Longinus that was paired with Adam.

Whats more according to the Classifed info it was by bad luck that a pair of white and black moons landed on the same planet which would result in an inevitable conflict between angels and humans. Considering that only Adam was found with a Spear of Longus I believe that the First Ancestroal race used it on Adam to prevent the Angels from being born from him as a way to correct their mistake and give the earth to solely to the Humans. For one in the Evangelion series itself it is stated that the angels would only appear after Second Impact. Its well know that Second impact was caused by experimenting with Adam who was found in Suspended animation, the Spear of Longinus was picked up by Gendo in another trip to Antarctica, and that the angels despite having imortal life only appear 15 years after Second Impact. I believe that the Anartica team wanted to experiment with Adam's S2 engine and thus removed the Spear that kept it turned off (ie, in suspended animation). Thus Adam was freed of the Spear and his S2 Engine chain reacted to explode giving birth to the angels and spreading them all over the global where they lay hidden in places like volcanos until they reached 15 years of age, the very age that was considered adult hood during the Edo period of Japan.

So the Spear actually designed to inhibit seeds of life from sprouting so either Yui brought it herself because she doesn't want it to sprout or the Spear which seems to have a mind of its own is tagging along with her to prevent her from spreading life on another planet that is mostly already fertilized with another egg from the Ancestral Race. Personally I believe its a bit of both. Yui should know full well that any other habitable planets in the Galaxy have likely already been planted with the seeds of human or angel life by the Ancestrial race. She had no problem slaughtering angels so that her son Shinji could inherit the future of the Earth, but I don't see her as having any intention to wipeout the life that has been planted on other habitable planets in a "fourth impact" in the name of spreading humanity to other planets like its manifest destiny or something.

[Keith]

None of what you quoted matches any of what you're going on about, especially since it recognizes Lilith as the counterpart to the Spear. Besides which, you contradict several very important points.

-Adam is "not" a god, he is an angel, and part of Lilith. Note that both the god is named Lilith, and the female half split from it was also called Lilith (the male part is called Adam).

-By proxy, The White/Black moon's did "not" come from seperate entities, they are two halves of the same entity/god, i.e. "Lilith." You'll note for the most part, the goal of both the Angels & Humans was to rejoin Adam/Lilith together to rejoin with god, at the cost of the other side.

-Any speculation as to a "proto" race is just that, speculation, until its even remotely addressed in the animation. While it's clear something of some sort did exist, asuming that they were on Earth and used a spear to inhibit Adam is wild supposition at best.

-By the same token, assuming that every inhabitable planet in the universe is inhabitable is also wildy speculative, especially since Yui departs clearly stating that to be her intent.

And really, why rely on the dubious translation skills & non-main source info gathering/meshing from some jerkoff site. Watch the damn show, read the Red Cross Book (which too has only fan translations to rely on, but ones I'd rely on far more than a video game reference).

[VFTF1]

Watch the damn show

This is a sentiment that I agree with Keith about. Quoting other fans is fine. But pretending that the arguments other fans make are somehow authorative over arguments made by fans in this thread has no basis. I'm sure there's a lot of interesting, useful and factual information at evageeks and I am happy Gubaba once again taught me that something I didn't know about exists - reading that website will be a fun experience.

But I'm not going to turn off my brain and forget about my own impressions of the anime and just input everything written over there as "the truth."

Of course - I am open to the idea that my watching of the anime is not flawless - and already I've been shown numerous errors in my suppositions, or compelled by good sound reasoning to admit that what I thought were definitive truths about NGE were in fact just my impressions which are very open to question.

Let's all keep questioning -but just quoting what some other website says and being like "there - it's setlled" in attitude isn't going to get us anywhere. People on this website also try to make logical arguments based in the anime.

And..I do agree - at the end of the day - you just need to go back to the anime itself.

Pete

Edited December 9, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

-Adam is "not" a god, he is an angel, and part of Lilith. Note that both the god is named Lilith, and the female half split from it was also called Lilith (the male part is called Adam).

I don't *think* that's right...I believe they are separate entities. If you're going by the Manga Video subtitles, they're mistaken.

And really, why rely on the dubious translation skills & non-main source info gathering/meshing from some jerkoff site. Watch the damn show, read the Red Cross Book (which too has only fan translations to rely on, but ones I'd rely on far more than a video game reference).

Ouch. "dubious translation skills"? Care to cite some examples of mistakes they've made?

And you DO know that the Anno was heavily consulted for the game, right?

[VFTF1]

Ouch. "dubious translation skills"? Care to cite some examples of mistakes they've made?

I hope Keith takes you up on that - because it would be very interesting. I don't know any Japanese, but as someone who has worked as a translator in other languages, I do know that sometimes it is possible to have extreme differences, particularly when translating complex poetic and literary texts, and I imagine that a show like NGE qualifies and that since we argue over the philosophical implications of the statements in english, then by all means there must be some root of this argument in the original Japanese which is itself open to interpretation.

I take Keith's statement to mean that there are some important portions of NGE where Japanese speakers themselves disagree as to what is intended.

I think it would be wonderful if you guys could have a civil discussion where you give some examples - not all of them, not asking you guys to drop everything and do an exegisis - but some examples of where you see these differences and why they are significant.

Pete

[Freiflug88]

- Evageeks speculated that Lilth had her own spear counterpart like Adam. I speculated that Lilth never had a spear of her own and that the spear's purpose was to inhibit Adam.

- Just what is defined as a "God" flucates through the show. Considering that Adam is immortal and gave birth to the angels during Second Impact its clear that he is a god-like being.

- The goal of the angels was to return sole to Adam from which they came at the cost of humanity. It was obvious from Kaworu Nagisa reaction on finding Lilth that he realized he had been tricked and that he only planed to merge with Adam and didn't care to merge with Lilth.

- Adam and Lilth were two separate enites that were obviously placed by someone or something purposely. They both were found deep in the center of artificial cavities not made by NERV or any man. If it was a case of a god "Lilth" splitting into two halves to spread life onto the planet then they should have been found close to each other in one underground cavity or spread out on the surface of the planet. Instead both were encased in perfect artifical spheical cavities deep underground on opposite ends of the globe.

- I never said that all planets were inhabitable. I stated that any inhabitable planet was no doubt already inhabited with life seeded by beings just like Adam and Lilth by the hands of "God"/Proto Race.

[VFTF1]

Re: this whole issue of who is a god, who isn't a god, etc etc etc ---

First of all - let's be clear about one thing guys:

NO WHERE in Neon Genesis Evangelion is there ever a definition of what is meant by "a god" and "an angel" - and so I think it's really best to take these terms with a grain of salt. When we are told that EVAs have "bodies of god" I always understood this in the same sense that Transformers were called "God-masters" in Japanese -- it just means "super powerful."

It doesn't mean that they have bodies of deities - unless of course we mean Greek deities - which basically means the same thing - because the "gods" were just that - MERELY gods. They weren't immortal, they had weaknesses and faults, they were constrained in some ways.

EVA is not a GOD - EVA is not GOD. Proof of that is the simple fact that EVA needs a pilot to function - or at least a dummy plug. And when Yui finally ends up capable of flying off on her own - it's YUI. It's not "God." It's Yui in a super powerful body that will let her traverse the star systems.

I thik you guys are letting yourself be duped into a metaphysical debate that's not there. The names in NGE - "gods" and "angels" etc are just there for the same reason as the religious IMAGES. It's to make everything LOOK important, to make it all LOOK alien and to touch us on a deeply spiritual level, because whatever our religious beliefs, all of us to some extent have been touched by a common culture - a common human history - and are therefore sensitive in sub-conscious ways to religious symbolism.

So there is really no point in trying to map out the real meaning of who is a god and who isn't in NGE - unless somebody can point me to anywhere where it is clearly specified that gods are defined.

Besides - who are we kidding? Gendo and Fuyutski talk specifically about where all these "god" like powers come from - from science. Human beings are building all this stuff - in an attempt to become like gods.

But they will never be GOD - even if they are primordial goopy goo. The logical general, non religious definition of God is eternal, all knowing, Being itself, prime mover --- and alone (and content in being alone). This general a vague logical view has always been apropriated by humans in various ways to satisfy their deep desire for spirituality and we can't get into that anyways because it's the taboo subject - Religion.

But my point is that the whole debate about whether Lilith is a god or who is god or whatever is pointless.

You guys have to first answer the question of what is meant by "god" in NGE - because clearly THAT is key. What you or I think of when we hear the word "god" or "God" is totally beside the point.

And to my knowledge - in NGE - the source of all human power is science, and "god" is generally and vaguely defined as "Beyond Human Liminations"

And Science is that which proceeds to continue to push the bondaries of human limitations.

The angels are some kind of creatures - born of the same stuff that human kind was born of. But this alone in no way answers the question of either THEIR origins or OUR origins.

And I think in the case of NGE this is a futile road to take. Futile because the anime itself didn't care about it. The anime wasn' concerned about where people came from and whether or not there is or isn't a God, or who or what God is.

The anime was always concerned with two things:

1) Who is Shinji Ikari and is it worth living the life of Shinji Ikari?

2) Where is Humanity GOING?

We're not keeping our eye on the ball here when we get into this debate of who is Lilith the god and what is Adam the God and blah blah blah.

Neon Genesis Evangelion is a work that is deeply metaphorical - and we cannot extrapolate on the basis of the events of this anime a precise chronology of the universe. And we shouldn't even look for it.

That's not what Neon Genesis Evangelion invites us to do.

I submit that Neon Genesis Evangelion uses a spiritual-artistic form to get us to wonder about our selves as we relate to ourselves. The angels and the battles with them are convenient metaphors for our personal battles with our own humanity.

If we descend into the dark depths of a debate about Lilith, Adam, the Lance of Longinus etc etc etc - we will be missing the forrest for the trees.

All of the actions and events surrounding the Spear and Adam and Lilith are as much poetry as they are "step by step events in a story."

Don't try to read NGE as if you were reading a treatise on Math and God by Spinoza.

This is not a treatise. My advise would be to think about what Lilith represents, what she - in her form and in what we see - tells us about ourselves. What does the spear represent? Holding Adam to the Cross?

And don't let yourselves get fooled into thinking in theological categories just because things are called "god" and "Adam" etc.

That would be the equivelent of being fooled into looking for Christian teachings in this anime just because there's plenty of crosses and Christ-like references.

I have nothing against rigorous religious debate - but I highly doubt that NGE is inviting that kind of thing.

This isn't the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

There's a reason there are no anime fans who worship Lilith or some such. It's just not in this anime. This anime isn't about that.

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

But it is a treatise. a cruel angel's thesis, to be precise.

wow, didn't realize there was a thread here debating the Eva series. Oh man, if feels so long ago when I religiously debated online on eva. i feel nostalgic, and at the same time, i feel so rusty. so much so, that all i could offer for now was that one-liner.