neon genesis evangelion

[Jasonc]

Mm, it's not so much the wroship that I think is the problem...it's that anyone who professes to "get" Eva is probably completely bonkers (and I include myself in that statement).

Plus, you've got too many people saying that THEIR view of Eva is correct, and everyone else is wrong, you've got the Rei vs. Asuka (vs. Mari) shippers, you've got blinded idiots saying that Eva is flawless, you've got other blinded idiots saying it's worthless...

As I've read these past 2 pages, it's my observation that the people who don't like the serieskind of expected the story to be "spelled" out for them. This, I can understand. Most people don't wanna think about such heavy concepts while watching mecha go at it. However, I find it odd, that some would find the series pretentious. Anime, whether it's heavy in philosophy, or some bubble-gum pop anime, is art, and the artists who create it and make it, I don't think, make these with any thought of being pretentious.

I've always seen NGE as being made with the intent to give each view a different interpretation. For anyone to assume that there's only one interpretation is arrogant, and would make that person who assumes that the @ss in that assumption. I said this before in another thread, and I'll say it here...NGE is like a painting, and should probably be looked at from different points of view. To think about it one dimensionally usually leaves you with a WTF type of reaction. It seems like the concepts that the creators had was way too much to fit in the constraints of the series, and what was left was more of an abstract piece of art that leaves the viewer to piece together it all and come up with their own ideas.

I would say that my idea of NGE is correct, but it's correct for me. It may be different for someone else. I'm not into the whole "I'm right, and everyone else is wrong" thing. Now, if you don't like it, that's fine and all. This anime isn't for everyone, just like bubble-gum anime isn't for everyone either. I found NGE very different from most anime, but I wouldn't say earth-shattering, ground breaking. Nevertheless, it is one of my favorites amongst others.

[Keith]

A couple of places.

First, I don't see where he got that Toji's sister's soul was inside Eva-03. It's not hinted at in the show, or in any of the extra material I've ever read.

Second, I believe that the TV ending and the EoE ending are different. Keith believes they're the same.

EDIT: here was my rationale: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=696327

I could add a little bit more to it now, based on the info presented in Evangelion Chronicle, but I'm too lazy to do that right now.

-Unit-00: The Core is comprised of part of Rei's own soul, upon its destruction, Rei becomes unified agian, and remembers she's Lilith.

-Unit-01: Yui Ikari's Soul

-Unit-02: Asuka's Mother

-Unit-03: What just happened in the series? Touji's sister was seriously injured at the beginning of the series. Touji's conidtion for becoming the pilot of Unit-03 was to have his sister moved to Nerv's personal hospitol. Ritsuko upon noting that a "core" could be easily setup for Touji, also very quickly agreed to have his sister "moved."

Combine all that with the "cores" of all known (non-dummy plug) Eva's requiring the soul of a female loved one for the pilot to synch with, and damn, how could you possibly say that wasn't hinted at. As for EoE, the damn thing was scene for scene matched up with the TV ending, just in far more awesome detail. If you can't see that, then no amount of "interpretation," can help you understand Eva.

What gets me are thsoe who say Eva was too abstract, or is open to whatever random interpretation they choose, simply because they weren't able to understand and follow the clearly drawn out path (as well as the support materials given) that Anno gave. If nothing else, go watch Proto-Eva, i.e.Nadia.

But whatever, it'll take until the new movies are done before the remaining naysayers finally listen to what I'm saying.

[VFTF1]

As for EoE, the damn thing was scene for scene matched up with the TV ending, just in far more awesome detail. If you can't see that, then no amount of "interpretation," can help you understand Eva.

I agree - and I would also be up to the task of providing the scene by scene analysis. It's patently obvious to me but easily missed because the FORM of the series ending is metaphorical and esoteric while the FORM of EOE presents the same CONTENT - but does so exoterically and without any metaphors.

That said, it is possible to show this. I just need to download EOE and the series ending again (for some odd reason, the entire series survived on my harddrive sans the last two episodes).

-Unit-03: What just happened in the series? Touji's sister was seriously injured at the beginning of the series. Touji's conidtion for becoming the pilot of Unit-03 was to have his sister moved to Nerv's personal hospitol. Ritsuko upon noting that a "core" could be easily setup for Touji, also very quickly agreed to have his sister "moved."

Makes sense to me - otherwise how do we account for what happens to Toji when he actually gets into EVA 03? Yeah, sure - fine. It turns out to be "an Angel."

But what is "an Angel" ? Why -it's 99.8% the same thing as a human being, as Ritsuko pointed out.

All of the geometrical angels are manisfestations of a form of human angst without the benefit of human bodies. Human beings are just angels who manifest themselves via emotions, words, gestures - and who have a different attack pattern that is not as simplistic as each consecutive geometrical Angel.

Question - the REAL question: what triggers an Angel to attack?

Clearly Toji was triggered because when he harmonized with EVA 03 - he realized IT was his sister - which totally freaked him out. He already WAS an angel - like all human beings - BEFORE this realization - but what made him detectable to NERV as an angel ("pattern blue") was that he freaked out during the harmonization process.

What is the harmonization process?

IT IS Human Instrumentality - step one. It's the same thing that ultimately SEEL wants for all mankind - it's the prototype platform for the merging of human souls into ONE - the EVAs and its' pilots merge, lowering their own AT fields via the convenient assitance of the fact that the EVAs are always people who have low AT field resistence towards their pilots anyways (Mom-son, Mom-daughter, Sister-brother, Lilith-Rei)> Why Lilith/Rei? Because they are the same genetic material - the same BEING - forced apart - most likely in order to discover how to put them back together.

SEEL authorizes the EVA project not just as a defense against Angels (since SEEL ARE Angels and that's tantamount to just extending the eternity of human struggle/warfare).

SEEL authorizes the EVA project because IT is the first step towards Human Instrumentality. The first step can be taken by using souls that already have weak AT field resistence to one another on account of biological or artificial bonds like love and friendship. Or souls that - like with Rei/Lilith - are already the same but split.

What they are trying to do is find a scientific, genetic formulae for replicating the process that takes place between some humans on an emotional level - the process of falling in love, of dropping all fear and inhibition (AT fields) towards the OTHER.

This process happens amongst select humans to the exlucions of OTHER humans - thus the AT field, even if weakened or dropped in relation to some people, never gets weakened or dropped in relation to ALL people.

In fact - if we remember Kaji's teaching to Shinji about the Japanese meaning of the word for "woman" - then by nature Instrumentality is impossible.

This is why Gendo desires to make it possible via SCIENCE.

Clear as daylight to me - which brings us to...

What gets me are thsoe who say Eva was too abstract, or is open to whatever random interpretation they choose, simply because they weren't able to understand and follow the clearly drawn out path (as well as the support materials given)

Exactly.

Which does NOT mean that Jasonc is wrong when he says:

I said this before in another thread, and I'll say it here...NGE is like a painting, and should probably be looked at from different points of view. To think about it one dimensionally usually leaves you with a WTF type of reaction. It seems like the concepts that the creators had was way too much to fit in the constraints of the series, and what was left was more of an abstract piece of art that leaves the viewer to piece together it all and come up with their own ideas.

These are NOT contrary views.

As I wrote in my previous post - there is a huge difference between plot and interpretation, between agreeing on what is seen and what is said vs. interpreting it. And between logical assumptions based on what is seen and said vs. presumptions and reflections based on what is seen and said.

Here's an example of one such logical assumption:

The sex scene between Misato and Kaji.

We never SEE it. But we sure as heck HEAR it.

So - is this "open to interpretation" in the sense that someone can come along and say "Well based on my feelings, I think that two people were cosplaying Misato and Kaji and having sex - but it wasn't really them" or "well based on my feelings, I think that they were actually both working out and doing push ups together."

I mean - technically - yes - you can venture a zillion theories about what was "really" happening in that scene - and all of them would be wrong since the fact is that the scene was Kaji and Misato having sex. End of Story.

Once you accept that this is what was happening - THEN you can go into interpretations.

Interpretations of that scene can vary from:

Misato and Kaji rekindled their old love

Misato was just using Kaji to get information

Kaji was just using Misato to get information

They were drunk and didn't know what they were doing

etc

etc

etc

Do you see what the difference is between interpretation and the facts/logic of a story?

It's not an either or. It's not "either everything Keith says is true" OR this show is one big blob with no plot, thought, sequencing etc etc.

If anything - the show is carefully made - carefully thought out. And so we need to be equally careful when analyzing it.

Keeping in mind the distinction between an EXPLANATION and an INTERPRETATION between what a scene made you feel and think vs. what HAPPENED in a scene is KEY.

Otherwise the discussion falls apart.

Pete

[Gubaba]

-Unit-00: The Core is comprised of part of Rei's own soul, upon its destruction, Rei becomes unified agian, and remembers she's Lilith.

-Unit-01: Yui Ikari's Soul

-Unit-02: Asuka's Mother

-Unit-03: What just happened in the series? Touji's sister was seriously injured at the beginning of the series. Touji's conidtion for becoming the pilot of Unit-03 was to have his sister moved to Nerv's personal hospitol. Ritsuko upon noting that a "core" could be easily setup for Touji, also very quickly agreed to have his sister "moved."

But, but...

Yui: "Disappeared" (and presumed dead) after the experiment that put her soul in the Eva.

Kyoko: Also dead.

Touji's sister: Still alive to berate him even after Toji gets put in the hospital.

The Newtype 100% book, the Newtype filmbook, Evangelion Chronicle...NONE of these mention anything about Touji's sister in connection with Unit 03. Can you give me more solid proof than just the fact that his sister was moved to a better facility?

[VFTF1]

Touji's sister: Still alive to berate him even after Toji gets put in the hospital.

Oh yeah. That's a good point. I'm glad I got you guys to argue

But then..how is it that the EVA-03 is occupied with an angel?

Pete

[Keith]

The Angel "occupied" Unit-03 when it flew through that storm cloud. As for being berated by his sister, specific dialogue?

[VFTF1]

The storm cloud I remember. As for the specific dialogue - I think it's later, when the Incho (class rep) comes to see Toji...

Wait...

Yeah -Gubaba - specific dialogue??

Because the last time I remember Toji getting chewed out by his sister was when the sister learned that Toji punched Shinji. We were told about this by that otaku with glasses who met Shinji in the field and they sat around a camp fire talking...

But after Toji survives his ordeal in EVA 03, all I remember is Incho coming to see him...

Pete

[Gubaba]

Oh yeah. That's a good point. I'm glad I got you guys to argue

I'm not.

The storm cloud I remember. As for the specific dialogue - I think it's later, when the Incho (class rep) comes to see Toji...

Wait...

Yeah -Gubaba - specific dialogue??

Because the last time I remember Toji getting chewed out by his sister was when the sister learned that Toji punched Shinji. We were told about this by that otaku with glasses who met Shinji in the field and they sat around a camp fire talking...

But after Toji survives his ordeal in EVA 03, all I remember is Incho coming to see him...

Pete

My Eva DVDs are all packed away in storage (except for 1.01). I could download the series, but that's going to take awhile.

EDIT: I did find this: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Eva-03%27s_Soul The information that the pilot's mother's soul is always inside the Eva comes from the game Evangelion 2, for Anno was heavily consulted, and which is considered canon.

FURTHER EDIT:

the last time I remember Toji getting chewed out by his sister was when the sister learned that Toji punched Shinji. We were told about this by that otaku with glasses who met Shinji in the field and they sat around a camp fire talking...

Hmmm...I think you're right about that...

But after Toji survives his ordeal in EVA 03, all I remember is Incho coming to see him...

...where he says (IIRC), "tell my sister there's nothing wrong with me."

If his sister had been killed in order to put her soul into the Eva, wouldn't someone, somewhere have mentioned it?

I think it's a real stretch to say, "At Toji's request, they put her in a better, NERV-run facility. This means they killed her and put her soul into Eva-03." And, I just checked through Evangelion Chronicle, and there is nothing about it in the sections for Toji, Eva-03, or EPisodes 17 and 18. I also don't remember anything about it in the DVD liner notes. And no one on evageeks forum has ever raised this question.

So where is Keith getting his information from?

Besides, how long do you think Toji would work for NERV if his sister died? They weren't PLANNING on the Eva-03 to be used only once, it was meant to be long-term, I believe. Since moving his sister was his only condition, I would imagine that if she died, he would stop piloting the Eva.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

Besides, how long do you think Toji would work for NERV if his sister died? They weren't PLANNING on the Eva-03 to be used only once, it was meant to be long-term, I believe. Since moving his sister was his only condition, I would imagine that if she died, he would stop piloting the Eva.

That's your strongest argument right there I guess.

Although at the bottom - I have what I believe to be an equally strong counter argument.

Although technically, one COULD argue that they would just plan on stone-walling and not letting him see his sister, but that would just anger him and make him harder to control. Ok.

EDIT: I did find this: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Eva-03%27s_Soul The information that the pilot's mother's soul is always inside the Eva comes from the game Evangelion 2, for Anno was heavily consulted, and which is considered canon.

This is a good link, and it shed new significance on Kenske telling Shinji that he has no mother and is "just like you." I always thought that was a delicate moment where one boy told another not to be lonely in his problems - but I guess it also implies that everybody's mothers are being recycled as EVAs...

But is this to say that NONE of the children in that class have moms? Wouldn't they all be really upset if that were the case? It would be a scary coincidence?

Besides, Incho (class rep) seems to be a very upright girl. She seems like the kind of girl who had a very lady like and caring mother who taught her good manners. She's the girl I'd definitely want to be with out of all of the ones presented in EVA. And she has great taste in men, given her reason for liking Toji (as she presents it to Asuka).

..where he says (IIRC), "tell my sister there's nothing wrong with me."

If his sister had been killed in order to put her soul into the Eva, wouldn't someone, somewhere have mentioned it?

And here we come to the crux of problem: NO.

Was Shinji told: "Sorry, kid. Your mom is not in that grave and did not die of natural causes. She was murdered by dad and put in EVA-01, didn'tcha know?"

No.

And Toji would likely just be informed "We regret to inform you that despite NERV's best efforts - your sister did not survive. She is dead. Funeral in two weeks."

And what? This would be unbelievable?

Toji's sister was clearly very severelly wounded since she is always hospitalized and since Toji requests NERV put her in their super duper best hospital on Earth. We can therefore safely come to the logical inference that the sister DOES run the risk of dying of her wounds.

Which brings us to the point that NERV could actually kill her, put her soul in EVA and tell Toji that she died of her wounds and there was nothing they could do.

Just as Shinji is shown visiting the grave of his mother - Toji would go to a funeral, there would be a grave site -and he'd never be the wiser about the truth.

Finally - just because he says "tell my sister I'm ok" etc doesn't mean that there's a sister to tell. This plot thread - I think - never goes any further. But... It is still possible that they used his sister - not his mother.

Kinske's mom - fine. I can buy that Nerv snagged and used her since he explicitly says he doesn't have one.

But that NONE of the kids have moms? I dunno... That's never stated and, like I noted, it's hard to believe based on Incho's class A manners which so totally imply that she is from a good family.

Although - the one time we see her at home - she is alone making lunch for Toji and herself.

Then again... this is typical of EVA. Everybody is alone. The only time there's a sense of real togetherness is when Misato sits down with Shinji (and sometimes guests) to eat and they play that nice sitcom music that is mellow and fun

Pete

[Gubaba]

That's your strongest argument right there I guess.

No, I think the strongest argument is the link.

Then, consider this, from the Classified Information:

A unit called a core is used to eliminate the discrepancies in Eva, a human being with the body of a god and a soul. The soul of the pilot's mother, which is placed within the core, acts as a medium and makes piloting possible.

Due to difficulties encountered in the development of Eva-00, the core's system is poorly constructed, and she falls behind in performance capacity as a result. Another reason for her inferiority is that Eva-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother."

If you follow the link on "Classified Information," you get:

The Classified Information (機密情報, Kimitsu Jouhou） is a set of data files accessible from computer terminals located within the video game Neon Genesis Evangelion 2. It is generally considered a cornerstone of supplemental canon for the influx of new information it provides and given a great deal of weight due to Hideaki Anno's participation in the game's production. While most of the information reconciles fully with the show, there are some instances of apparent conflict. It is unclear to what extent this represents genuine inconsistency as opposed to reflecting disparities in security access (e.g., it requires a higher clearance level to learn that the white giant is Lilith rather than Adam).

This has been fully translated on the site. Makes for good reading.

And yes...I suppose they could've told Toji that his sister died from her wounds, but...again, would he continue piloting for them? Or (Toji being Toji) would he blame them for letting her die and storm off?

Anyway, it's Keith's theory, and while I certainly can't say that it's wrong, I've never, ever heard anyone else (besides you) espouse it, and there is nothing in the show or in the supplementary material to make me put stock in it.

[Gubaba]

Whoops, sorry...missed this:

But is this to say that NONE of the children in that class have moms? Wouldn't they all be really upset if that were the case? It would be a scary coincidence?

The Second Impact occured a mere fifteen years before, and the years following it were "hell" according to Fuyutsuki. After all was said and done, half the human race had been killed. Again, from Evageeks ( http://wiki.evageeks.org/Second_Impact ):

Two billion people in the southern hemisphere were instantly killed by the gargantuan tsunamis which followed the explosion. Many more would die in world wide coastal flooding. As a result of the subsequent chaos, global wars soon broke out due to food and resource shortages and refugee crises. Civil wars and ethnic conflicts were also widespread. Two days after the disaster, a nuclear exchange broke out between India and Pakistan over refugee tensions. On September 20th, seven days after Second Impact, a nuclear bomb was detonated in Old Tokyo, killing half a million people. Fighting spread across the world, and only ended on February 14th, 2001 when the Valentine Treaty formally put an end to the fighting. By the end of these events, the global human population was halved. Thousands of plant and animal species had also been rendered extinct.

I don't think a motherless class would've been terribly unusual.

[VFTF1]

Re: Classified Info - well...that link itself says:

The CI could be considered to fall somewhere between tier 2 or tier 3 canon, due to the fact that there is no way of confirming that the information is "100% Anno" and wasn't embellished at all by the game's producers.

Which to me suggests that we need to tread lightly with how we understand its' contents.

And yes...I suppose they could've told Toji that his sister died from her wounds, but...again, would he continue piloting for them? Or (Toji being Toji) would he blame them for letting her die and storm off?

But he wouldn't "storm off" if he learned that his mother had been killed and put into an EVA? Or for any number of other reasons resulting from learning anything controversial about what NERV is doing?

This is the thing - Toji is actually the worse possible candidate for a pilot from NERV's point of view because - as incho says - he's compassionate, or, just plain sensitive to the suffering of others.

See- Shinji is indeed a coward. He just does what he's told to get by and tries not to invest his emotions in anything or anyone. He prefers to begin from the assumption that he's worthless and that nothing is worth doing because that way he'll avoid being dissapointed or dissapointing others.

He's therefore not going to ask probing questions about NERV (or at least he'll start asking them very very veeery slowly).

Asuka couldn't care less about the moral dimmensions of NERV because her entire goal is to supress the truth - it's too painful for her to remember so she pretends it doesn't exist and wants to bathe in attention.

Rei is Rei.

Toji is the only child of all of the pilots who actually has a brain. Despite him being technically presented in the beginning as a tough guy schoolyard bully - he's actually the one with a moral imagination. Class Rep notices it and loves him for it. The fact that his EVA goes crazy and becomes an angel and attacks him is - in my view - more confirmation of it.

Toji WOULD therefore - like you say - most likely storm off in any case.

But ...

Oh...

Yeah...

If it WAS his sister in the EVA... and if he did notice it while piloting... then he wouldn't have said "tell my sister I'm ok" or anything like that...

Which I guess leads us to the question of:

Just what did happen? Was the angel in that cloud and then it just possessed EVA-03? And Toji lost control? And it had nothing to do with a psychotic experience of recognizing that the soul of the EVA is his sister (or mother) ??

Pete

[Gubaba]

Re: Classified Info - well...that link itself says:

The CI could be considered to fall somewhere between tier 2 or tier 3 canon, due to the fact that there is no way of confirming that the information is "100% Anno" and wasn't embellished at all by the game's producers.

Which to me suggests that we need to tread lightly with how we understand its' contents.

Here are the tiers and what they mean:

1. The anime itself and its scripts and storyboards. The Director's Cuts are the final or official version and take precedence over the On Air version in the event of any theoretical contradiction.

2. Statements made by the show's creators, principally Hideaki Anno.

3. Official supplemental sources such as theatrical programs, Newtype Filmbooks, and Cardass Cards.

4. The Manga, which is actually its own continuity. At best it can be used to support the anime when they are in explicit agreement; it should never be used to contradict the anime.

Are you really saying that statements made by people at Macross World should be given equal weight with statements by the show's creators or official supplemental sources?

Just what did happen? Was the angel in that cloud and then it just possessed EVA-03? And Toji lost control? And it had nothing to do with a psychotic experience of recognizing that the soul of the EVA is his sister (or mother) ??

The Angel was indeed in the cloud. "Bardiel" is the name of the 13th Angel. In non-Eva material (such as the excellent Dictionary of Angels), it's "Baradiel." But anyway, he's the Angel of Lightning.

[VFTF1]

Are you really saying that statements made by people at Macross World should be given equal weight with statements by the show's creators or official supplemental sources?

That's a trick question But I'm going to answer it anyways:

Yes, when those statements have grounding in some kind of verifiable proof, no when they don't. Anno could get drunk and say "Actually, EVA has no plot! I just asked a monkey to hit random keys on a type writer and that's what he came up with. Ha ha" and this would technically fall within the category of tier 1...but how useful it would be - I dunno.

Also:

WHO CAME UP WITH THESE TIERS??

The people at evageeks?

Well then - according to their OWN classification of what is and isn't cannon - they don't fit in ANY of the tiers...

Unless the tiers themselves were written up by people who fit into - TIER 1

If it's just a bunch of fans... then their theories and analysis and their categories like "tier 1, tier 2 etc" have just as much weight as our theories and analysis - which is to say: as much as the arguments, examples and ideas behind them do.

So - gomene - but I disagree with the premise of "authorative categorization mechanism" vs "fan speculation" since the mechanism itself is just a convention wrought by "fan speculation" - and "fan speculation" itself can be sometimes more reasonable and sometimes less reasonable.

We should never totally shut a door to new questions and thinking based on an artificial categorization mechanism.

Re: Second Impact - Thanks for that synopsis. I did not realize that beyond the explosion itself, there was also a nuclear war and civil wars etc etc.

Pete

Edited December 2, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

That's a trick question But I'm going to answer it anyways:

Yes, when those statements have grounding in some kind of verifiable proof, no when they don't. Anno could get drunk and say "Actually, EVA has no plot! I just asked a monkey to hit random keys on a type writer and that's what he came up with. Ha ha" and this would technically fall within the category of tier 1...but how useful it would be - I dunno.

Also:

WHO CAME UP WITH THESE TIERS??

The people at evageeks?

Well then - according to their OWN classification of what is and isn't cannon - they don't fit in ANY of the tiers...

Unless the tiers themselves were written up by people who fit into - TIER 1

If it's just a bunch of fans... then their theories and analysis and their categories like "tier 1, tier 2 etc" have just as much weight as our theories and analysis - which is to say: as much as the arguments, examples and ideas behind them do.

Hmm...If you're arguing what I think you're arguing, I disagree.

Let's take SDF Macross as an example. We've got the show. We've got interviews with the creators. We've got stuff like Macross Chronicle. If there are contradictions, shouldn't we be able to say that the show trumps the interviews, and that the interviews trump Chronicle? And that ALL of them trump any theories you or I may have? The tiers are not speculation, they're common sense. Mikimoto could get drunk and say, "Really, Minmay's not Chinese, she's Brazilian." But the show contradicts that, so his words would be discounted. Macross Chronicle could say that the VF-1S has a speaker-pod launching gun instead of a normal gunpod. But the show contradicts it, and sketches by Kawamori contradict it, so Macross Chronicle would be wrong.

However, if Macross Chronicle says that Elmo Kirdanik is Britai's grandson...well, it doesn't contradict the show, and it doesn't contradict any interviews. So it sticks.

And if...I dunno, who can I pick on...dreamweaver13 comes out and says, "I think Elmo is actually Max and Milia's only son," we can point to Macross Chronicle and say, "Well, it wasn't mentioned in the show, but it was mentioned here." And he would say "Oh," and move on.

Besides, the categorization system is necessary for something like Eva Geeks, where some information IS INDEED contradictory, and they have to decide which one takes precedence.

We should never totally shut a door to new questions and thinking based on an artificial categorization mechanism.

I agree. But we're not arguing with the categorization system, we're arguing with official sources. Which is much trickier, unless they are CLEARLY false.

Re: Second Impact - Thanks for that synopsis. I did not realize that beyond the explosion itself, there was also a nuclear war and civil wars etc etc.

Eva Geeks is a great resource, isn't it? Categorization system and all.

[VFTF1]

The tiers are not speculation, they're common sense.

Thank you for proving my point.

"Common sense" is not listed in any of the tiers as being a reliable basis for canonicity. If the tiers themselves are based on "common sense" - then in accordance with the tiers, the tiers are not a reliable basis for canonicity.

This is eminently logical.

Besides, the categorization system is necessary for something like Eva Geeks, where some information IS INDEED contradictory, and they have to decide which one takes precedence.

Thank you for again proving my point.

Which tier takes into account "they" - the decisions by evageeks? None. Which tier takes into account "necessity." None. If the foundation of the truth of the tiers lies outside of the tiers, then according to the tiers, the tiers are not true.

What the tiers are, is just one amongst a million other fan-created methods for analysis.

Does this mean everything evageeks write is wrong? No.

Does this mean the tiers themselves are senseless? No.

However - you base your argument about Toji's sister/EVA-03 on something that EVA-geeks categorizes as 2nd or 3rd tier info. I say that this is a basis for doubt, you note that all of the tiers take precendent over fan speculation (implicitly over my doubt) - I note that the tiers themselves are part of fan speculation.

You note that the tiers are not fan speculation but rather common sense, necessity and a basis upon which a group of fans makes decisions about what is and isn't important.

Fair enough.

But let's not therefore elevate the tiers beyond what they really are - a useful tool.

Also - remember - an analytical tool is useful only insofar as it can be made use of. Once an analytical tool starts to close more doors than it opens, or starts being used by people to stop conversations instead of continue them - then I think the tool is useless.

Finally - EVAgeeks themselves, in the case of Toji's sister, used a deductive argument that was based on inference from the contents of a particular episode. That is what they say in the quote you link to. It's a matter of "logic" based on what is seen.

So - that's exactly what Keith and me have been doing - or trying to do. And naturally when information is brought to our attention, it modifies a view - when questions are asked, it complicates a view and makes me take two steps back to try to look at things again.

But evageeks itself is indecisive on this point about what happened to Toji's sister and whose soul was used for EVA-03.

I'd rather continue the discussion along the path that it's been going - namely people throwing out arguments based on the content of the show (or, if there is such content, based on statements by the creators, interviews etc. pertaining to Toji's sister/EVA-03) rather than saying what you seem to argue which is this:

Because a video game says A, and because the information from a video game is Level 2 or Level 3 truth according to the Truth-Meter, then that is the end of the discussion.

The tiers are useful tools - they're not a truth-meter. They shouldn't stop a discussion in its' tracks.

I agree. But we're not arguing with the categorization system, we're arguing with official sources. Which is much trickier, unless they are CLEARLY false.

But we are arguing with the categorization system insofar as it becomes a hinderence to understanding the story. And in this case it clearly is - because since the categorization system is based on an arbitrary decision by fans, dictated by the necessity of sorting information, and since this decision itself is based on a foundation that does not qualify as tier 1,2,3, or 4 - but fals bellow the bounds of the categorization system itself - then it's arbitrary and it could be a hinderence if taken dogmatically.

The quote from evageeks with regard to EVA-03 ends with:

Following this chain of evidence, the inescapable conclusion is that Evangelion Unit-03 contains the soul of Toji's mother.

How is that different from your chain of evidence that leads you to infer something? Or Keiths? Or mine? Or any other fans' who has watched the show and tried to grapple with it?

The only difference is that evageeks slaps an arbitrary "Truth Category" onto it - "this is Tier 2 or Tier 3 truth."

If we let that blind us - then the discussion ends and it's a pity. We should just look at their "chain of evidence" - follow their argument - and compare it to ours and see where it takes us.

EDIT: And along all those lines:

If there are contradictions, shouldn't we be able to say that the show trumps the interviews, and that the interviews trump Chronicle? And that ALL of them trump any theories you or I may have?

Of course we should be able to say it - but we shouldn't presume that this sequence is an all time truth-meter.

And also - we shouldn't presume that this sequence of "tiers of truth" that holds for SDF Macross holds for NGE and other anime equally.

After all - not all anime/stories are written in the same way. Each story will likely give birth to its' own categorization system based on the particulars of the story.

Pete

Edited December 2, 2009 by VFTF1

[Keith]

Again, the key here is that Touji was the only child in class (a well known fact btw is that all the children in Shinji's class were candidates) that coul dhave a core immediately prepaired. If say Kenske (who's mother was also dead) had a dead mother's soul on tap in storage, then he would have been an equaly immediate choice. The fact that he actually had an interest in being a pilot would have made him a "better" choice.

But in the realm of story telling, especially a mystery story, the proof is in the clue's strewn about. Touji never mentions his mother, Kenske does mention his mother, but more in a bonding reference. Touji is "very" attached to his sister. Touji's sister is very seriously injured. Rei has no mother, or rather, Rei is the mother of "all." Rei synch's with Eva Unit-00 through a splinter of her own self, which sets the precedent for it being more necessary to synch with a close "female" influence, rather than an absolutely specific mother. And here's the real clincher, Touji's sister (a character whom we're actually semi-familair to, though only in repeated reference). is moved to a Nerv medical facility at the same time a core (which by all official references, has to be a close female influence in the pilots life) can be prepaired.

So you tell me which makes more sense and is illuded to. Touji's mother who is never mentioned, or Touji's sister.

This reminds me if debates of old where people swore it was Misato that killed Kaji, even though she was in lock up with no gun or secuirty card (to get in or out of Nerv) at the time.

[Phyrox]

I'll just say that for my part, it always seemed implied that Koji's sister was the core of Eva-03. Maybe I didn't pick up on this until my second viewing, but that could be said about pretty much everying in Evangelion. I wouldn't bother arguing the point, for the same reasons others have stated here: one of the best things about Eva is that not everyone sees the same things, but it still works (for most of us).

But I thought that one was clearly implied from the show.

[Gubaba]

Again, the key here is that Touji was the only child in class (a well known fact btw is that all the children in Shinji's class were candidates) that coul dhave a core immediately prepaired. If say Kenske (who's mother was also dead) had a dead mother's soul on tap in storage, then he would have been an equaly immediate choice. The fact that he actually had an interest in being a pilot would have made him a "better" choice.

But in the realm of story telling, especially a mystery story, the proof is in the clue's strewn about. Touji never mentions his mother, Kenske does mention his mother, but more in a bonding reference. Touji is "very" attached to his sister. Touji's sister is very seriously injured. Rei has no mother, or rather, Rei is the mother of "all." Rei synch's with Eva Unit-00 through a splinter of her own self, which sets the precedent for it being more necessary to synch with a close "female" influence, rather than an absolutely specific mother. And here's the real clincher, Touji's sister (a character whom we're actually semi-familair to, though only in repeated reference). is moved to a Nerv medical facility at the same time a core (which by all official references, has to be a close female influence in the pilots life) can be prepaired.

So you tell me which makes more sense and is illuded to. Touji's mother who is never mentioned, or Touji's sister.

Again:

"A unit called a core is used to eliminate the discrepancies in Eva, a human being with the body of a god and a soul. The soul of the pilot's mother, which is placed within the core, acts as a medium and makes piloting possible.

Due to difficulties encountered in the development of Eva-00, the core's system is poorly constructed, and she falls behind in performance capacity as a result. Another reason for her inferiority is that Eva-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother."

This is from an official source, approved by Anno, and for which he was heavily consulted.

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[VFTF1]

This is from an official source, approved by Anno, and for which he was heavily consulted.

Yes - but let's pick apart what exactly is in the official source material that you quote.

Question 1: Does the material say that ALL EVAs use the soul of the pilots mothers as their core? NO.

Source:

Another reason for her inferiority is that Eva-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother.

Question 2: How does the source explain the core and what an EVA exactly is?

Source:

A unit called a core is used to eliminate the discrepancies in Eva, a human being with the body of a god and a soul.

Oh. Ok. So EVA is a human being with "the body of a god" and "a soul."

Question: Is the soul the soul of a god, or of a human being?

Answer:

The source does not say - however we may infer that it is the soul of a human being, since the source says "the body of a god AND a soul" rather than "the body and soul of a god."

Question: So what do mothers have to do with anything?

Source:

The soul of the pilot's mother, which is placed within the core, acts as a medium and makes piloting possible.

Oh - ok. But...does this sentence say "the soul of every pilot's mother"

No - it says "the pilot's mother"

Could this be interpreted to mean any pilot?

No - because in the same paragraph that this quote comes from, it clearly states that the first EVA uses Rei, and Rei has no mother.

This means that EVA is possible - can exist - without the pilot's mother

Question: What is therefore meant by "the pilot's mother" in this sentence?

Answer:

This is an explicit reference to Shinji Ikari, because who else would be refered to as the formal "the pilot of the Evangelion" except the main character? Granted, it could be Asuka, since we KNOW from the anime that her mother is in the EVA-02 - but more likely it is Shinji who is and has always been "The Pilot" of the most important Evangelion. The inference is clear because otherwise the statement is self contradictory. The statement cannot be saying "every pilot's mother" is in the core and that is the definition of an EVA - because that would mean that Rei Ayanami's EVA 00 is not an EVA - which it is.

Further proof of this: The source says that putting the mother into the core "makes piloting possible" --- really?

So EVA 00 is impossible to pilot?

No - it clearly is not.

So actually - the source is not literal - the source cannot possibly literally mean that no mother at the core means that it is impossible to pilot the EVA since the source states that Rei pilots her EVA without a mother at the core.

ERGO:

The quote you give us states the following:

1. Eva is a human being with the body of a god and the soul of a human who did not have a godly body

2. The mother of "the pilot" (Shinji Ikari) is the soul of the EVA-01/Generally speaking NERV puts the soul of the mother of the pilot into the EVA to make it work.

3. Rei Ayanami's EVA does not have a mother as its' soul because Rei does not have a mother.

What can we extrapolate from these three points?

Before we move to extrapolating - let's focus on another portion of the source you quote - right here:

Due to difficulties encountered in the development of Eva-00, the core's system is poorly constructed, and she falls behind in performance capacity as a result. Another reason for her inferiority is that Eva-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother.

Question:

Is the reason why EVA-00 has poor performance because the core does not have the soul of Rei's mother?

NO

That is only - to precisely quote the statement "Another reason" - the first reason given was "the core's system is poorly constructed."

Is this the same thing as "EVA 00 does not have Rei's mother's soul at its' core? No.

In fact - the same poor construction afflicts all the EVAs - which is exactly why they developed...

The Dummy Plug

Whose the dummy plugs mother? (note: this question is ironic and deserves no answer)

Getting back to our extrapolation:

The source material you cite makes clear the opposite of what you argue.

The source material makes clear that:

A) Not all EVA units have the mother of the pilot as the soul

B) The core system itself is faulty

C) Rei Ayanami, despite not having a mother and not having a mother in the EVA 00 was able to function

D) Rei's EVA 00 functioned badly due to the absence of the mother and a faulty core.

Did Shinji's EVA function perfectly due to the presence of the mother? Did the core function perfectly?

The SYNCH RATIO in EVA-01 was higher most likely due to Shinji's mother being in there.

But hey - look at EVA-02. The synch ration on that was LOWER than EVA-01 DESPITE Asuka's mother being in 02.

Why?

Because Shinji loves his mother and his mother loves Shinji.

Meanwhile Asuka's mother died by suicide, went mentally insane and prefered to talk to a doll instead of her daughter and asked Asuka to kill herself.

Might it just be then logical to infer that these two ladies would have trouble synchronizing?

And might we therefore infer that the key is not to put the mother in the core, but rather to put someone who the pilot loves into the core? A person with whom the AT field is weakest between the pilot and the core soul - a mother....or a sister even.

You might ask: Why then did the EVA-02 have Asuka's mother in it - when Gendo KNEW that it was hard for Asuka to synch with her mother due to their differences and pathological relationship?

ANSWER:

Because Gendo's goal was Human Instrumentality and the Synchronization of two human beings via the EVA was just the test platform for the wider project. In order for it to work - you needed to experiment. You couldn't just rely on two people who synch with one another in real life and love eachother and are very close to eachother. You had to throw in people who have very pathological relationships and STILL attempt to synchronize them because that was the only way you'd learn how to make instrumentality work - how to synchronize all human beings despite the pathological relationships or apathay that people generally have towards one another as individuals.

Thus - the quote you provide does not prove that EVA-03 had Toji's mother at the core.

The anime clearly makes an issue out of Toji's sister. Not once do we ever hear anything about Toji's mother. Never. Ever. To make the assumption that she's dead and that none of the people in Shinji's class have mothers because all the mothers were murdered and put into EVAs is a big leap. It has some logic behind it (you gave a convincing general argument as to why lots of people might be orphans - but not necessarily motherless as such).

However, rather than having to guess about something that the anime is silent about (the fate of Toji's mother) and rather than assuming that the anime just uses his mother without showing us and his sister is some kind of decoy - it is more logical to assume that his sister was put into EVA-03 as part of the plot progression.

From a purely literary standpoint - it makes more sense since they spent a good deal of time building up Toji's relationship with his sister, since they expliclity tell us about her being moved at Toji's request to a NERV medical fascility. Why all this information if the sister is totally uinimportant? Why NOTHING about Toji's mother?

We learn about Shinji's mom, Asuka's mom, we learn about Rei's relation to Lilith. But Toji...is blank? We can just assume it's his mom in there and the sister plot arc was just a meaningless aside?

I think it's more logical to assume the horrific truth that the chain of events we see in the anime leads us towards: namely that Toji's sister is used as the core for EVA-03.

And again - Keith notes that they picked Toji because they had a core all ready and set for him.

And no - I highly doubt that all of the mothers are being used as the basis for experiments. The Dummy Plug and Rei prove you don't need to do that.

Pete

Edited December 2, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Okay, okay. You're right. Gainax is wrong.

Toji wanted his sister to get better medical services. They transferred her to the NERV hospital.

Therefore, it follows logically that they killed her and harvested her soul.

No other interpretation is possible.

I stand corrected.

[VFTF1]

Okay, okay. You're right. Gainax is wrong.

Waah You're not being fair From the quotes/sources you've presented, it no where explicitly says that Toji's mom's soul is in the core of EVA-03.

In fact, if we wer to take your quote literally - then the EVA-00 would be impossible to pilot by Rei Ayanami. And yet not only was it possible, but when Shinji didn't want to pilot the EVA-01, Gendo said they should ready it for Rei. And then the Dummy plug issue...

In either event - I present the entire thesis above. Not saying it doesn't have its' short-comings, but again - if we were to take the quote you presented literally - then it means the EVA-00 can't be piloted by Rei...

Toji wanted his sister to get better medical services. They transferred her to the NERV hospital.

Therefore, it follows logically that they killed her and harvested her soul.

I kind of see what you're implying here - namely (if I get your meaning), that this view is slightly too conspiratorial. But why wouldn't they harvest her soul?

Presumably NERV cannot just pluck anyone it wants to off the street, murder them and harvest their souls. This presumption is made on the basis of the fact that NERV has competition - and the competition is threatening enough that Gendo concocts a sabatoge plan. I am certain that the competitors are not the only ones. There are other centers of authority, and if citizens just started to vanish, it would cause a commotion. This is why NERV likes to harvest its' own.

Toji insisted that his sister be transfered to the facilities - a perfect excuse for taking her. And then - oops. She's dead - they can make up whatever medical records they want, or file the records under top secret. Once you're part of NERV - they own you so to speak...

Anyways...no need t get sore over it

If anything, all we're doing is showing just how right Jasonc was with his NGE = Painting analogy...

Anyways - I'd be glad to stand corrected myself, but I think I've raised some issues which at the very least need to be addressed thoroughly.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Waah You're not being fair From the quotes/sources you've presented, it no where explicitly says that Toji's mom's soul is in the core of EVA-03.

WI never said that it was Toji's mom.

I don't WHOSE soul is in Eva-03, I just don't think it was Toji's sister. Because if she was killed, then that's a pretty big plot point for them to, y'know, never mention at all.

EDIT: Obviously, I can't prove that his sister's soul is NOT in there, I just did the best I could with the available materials (I'll check Evangelion Chronicle tonight to see if it sheds any light on the situation).

But I defy you or anyone else to conclusively prove that it IS Toji's sister's soul in there. Dialogue from the show, creator interviews, secondary material...all of this would be admissible.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

I don't WHOSE soul is in Eva-03

Don't worry - neither do I. I don't even have any EVA-03 toys that I can ask.

I just don't think it was Toji's sister. Because if she was killed, then that's a pretty big plot point for them to, y'know, never mention at all.

Now this gives rise to another interesting question: namely what first led you to believe that it was Toji's mom?

I don't know about Keith - but what first led me to believe it was Toji's sister was that immediately after getting into the EVA-03, it is possesed by an angel and Toji looses all control.

And we know by that point that Angels are capable of mind probes and of messing with the synchronization between the pilot and the harvested soul at the core of the angel.

Given that the sister and the relationship between Toji and the sister was promiment throughout the series, and given her transfer to NERV headquarters - I just imagined that Toji was somehow shown by the angel in the cloud that his dead sister's soul was in the EVA-03 and that made him have a mental meltdown on an epic scale and the EVA went berserk.

That's the emotion that struck me while watching. Most likely, it was because they kept mentioning the sister - not once did they mention the mother - so deep in my subconscious I was thinking "Toji's sister."

Never thought about his mother because she was never mentioned....

Pete

[Gubaba]

Don't worry - neither do I. I don't even have any EVA-03 toys that I can ask.

I asked my EVA-03 model kit. It just growled at me.

Now this gives rise to another interesting question: namely what first led you to believe that it was Toji's mom?

I don't know about Keith - but what first led me to believe it was Toji's sister was that immediately after getting into the EVA-03, it is possesed by an angel and Toji looses all control.

And we know by that point that Angels are capable of mind probes and of messing with the synchronization between the pilot and the harvested soul at the core of the angel.

Given that the sister and the relationship between Toji and the sister was promiment throughout the series, and given her transfer to NERV headquarters - I just imagined that Toji was somehow shown by the angel in the cloud that his dead sister's soul was in the EVA-03 and that made him have a mental meltdown on an epic scale and the EVA went berserk.

That's the emotion that struck me while watching. Most likely, it was because they kept mentioning the sister - not once did they mention the mother - so deep in my subconscious I was thinking "Toji's sister."

Never thought about his mother because she was never mentioned....

Pete

Did I say I believe it was Toji's mom? Like I said, I don't know.

It never occurred to me that it was his sister, though, because, again...no one ever mentioned that she died, and I assume it's not possible to harvest a soul from a living person.

I never thought Toji had any control in the Eva at all. It went berserk, and he was just a passenger. Anyone in the cockpit would've had the same experience, regardless of whose soul was in it (I'm cheating a bit here...Evangelion 2.0 deals a bit with this).

Looking back on it, after learning that Yui was in EVA-01, and Kyoko was in EVA-02, I thought it MIGHT have been Toji's mom in EVA-03, but it seemed that they never gave us enough information to even make an educated guess.

Until, that is, the Classified Information in the PS2 game came out.

[VFTF1]

Well - here's the thing with me and the way I look at anime - and you could rightly argue that this is sloppy but:

I always like to look at just the anime when thinking about what it means. I guess part of the problem is that since I don't read Japanese, I can't well look at source material anyways, and unless I'm reading something by someone I trust (like you) then I usually don't realy go searching the world wide web for somebody's rumors about what somebody else said in some source material from Japan. I don't play video games at all, so that's another source of info that I shut myself out from.

All I go by is what I see - or think I see in an anime and the emotions that I get while watching. This is very subjective - which is why I like talking to other people about this stuff because it often helps me verify where I got something wrong because there was too much ME in it.

So - I'm not saying "it's Toji' sister and if you disagree then you don't know EVA" - nor am I looking for a "drop everything and discover the truth of this right now" fight.

In fact - my hunch is that like with so much of EVA - there is no conclusive truth on this issue. Just like on a number of other issues.

You yourself said that my question "Was the Rei that appeared before Shinji in episode 1 a soul harvester?" was a "REAL good question" -

And for me personally - I prefer to be praised for asking real good questions than to be praised for giving 100% end-of-discussion answers.

Largely because I don't believe that good art, literature and anime entail the latter, but rather must always encourage the former.

This isn't a debate that I'm looking for conclusive proof in.

In fact- let me be even more blunt:

If Anno - tomorrow -came out and said "It was Toji's mother in EVA-03" - I still wouldn't be satisfied. If Anno signed up to MW and wrote the next post in this thread and said "sorry VFTF1 and Keith -Gubaba is right. It was Toji's mom" - I would start arguing with him.

What would I argue?

I would say "then what was the point of the sister sub-plot? Why was there never any mention o Toji's mom? Isn't it kind of lame that we are to assume all these thngs" etc etc etc.

And often times - when a creative writer or director appears in front of an audience to talk about his work - this is the kind of stuff he gets. I've seen it happen with theatre plays. People get so emotionally tied to an interpretation of a play they've just seen - that when the DIRECTOR of the play shoots down the interpretation and says "no, no - that's not what was meant. My intention was B" ... the audience members would be like "that's wrong. It couldn't have been because..." and would go at it.

And that's what good stories make people do. Because of course ultimately - to use this example with Toji - it's not really about what "really" happened - as you yourself write so many times about Macross chronology -"none of this is real. It's all fiction." The reason it's important to us is because who is in EVA-03 communicates some idea about the human condition to us, some teaching about human nature. That's why we like to try to grapple with the what/who/where/when - in order to get to the why?

Pete

[Keith]

How can Gainax be wrong if the anime itself is the very source that infers Touji's sister is in the Eva? And really, considering how long he would have been in the hospitol with those injuries, you're forgetting a very important incident that easily covers Nerv's ass. Specifically, an angel succeeds in getting into the GeoFront, takes out a ton of poo, and "easily" could be blamed for the Death of Touji's sister.

Even if that hadn't happened, they could have claimed she fell into a coma why not.

But that's besides the point, because as Pete & I have already shown, 00 blows away the whole "only the pilot's mother" theory. Again, none of this goes against Gainax, just extrapilates from what they do give us.

Some other things to note here, Gendou was never after "instrumentality," as he couldn't have possibly cared one way or the other. He just needed enough events set into motion so that he could become a "god," and join Yui. And Nerv's only real competetive threat was Seele, whome by all apearances were doing far darker things than harvesting souls!

[VFTF1]

Gendou was never after "instrumentality," as he couldn't have possibly cared one way or the other. He just needed enough events set into motion so that he could become a "god," and join Yui.

Yes, that's true. By saying Gendo was "really" after instrumentality and using the EVAs as a means - I was speaking/writing in short-hand. I even considered going back and editing that.

To elaborate - I see Gendo's plan as layers upon layers:

1. EVA synchonrization project serves the purpose of:

a) surviving angel attacks

b) perfecting synchronization between humans as a stepping stone towards instrumentality

2. Instrumentality serves the purpose of:

a) evolving to the next stage of perfection

b) becoming one with Yui on a personal level for Gendo

Ok...so actually listing them as "1" and "2" with "a,b,c" etc doesn't work..

But my point is that all of the elements were interconnected. And each part of the puzzle served a concrete purpose towards Gendo's ultimate plan of being with Yui/becoming God.

Nerv's only real competetive threat was Seele

Again - I was just writing in short-hand. "Real" yes, "only" no. The company which made that nuclear powered robot was a competitive threat - but not a "real" threat in the sense that they weren't something NERV couldn't easily handle.

But we still love you Gubaba!!

Pete

Edited December 2, 2009 by VFTF1

[Keith]

Speaking of which, I was kinda dissapointed Jet alone didn't make some kind of appearance in the movies, so many comical opportunities there.

[Gubaba]

How can Gainax be wrong if the anime itself is the very source that infers Touji's sister is in the Eva?

Again, I don't see that inference.

[VFTF1]

Well I've been re-watching the entire series just now, and next up is the episode where Toji is selected as the Fourth Children. The episode where EVA-03 goes berzerk is after that. I'll look closely at the episodes again and see if anything can be gained from that.

Pete

[VFTF1]

Ok - here goes:

1. The beginning of the episode juxtaposes SEEL's interogation of Misato with Toji's visit to his SISTER at the hospital. The end of the interrogation features SEEL coming to the conclusions that:

"We're running out of time"

Because the Angels appear to be getting more intelligent.

Their intelligence was their attempt to swallow EVA-01. EVA-01 is the key to SEEL's Instrumentality Project AND to Gendo's dream of Godhood. The Angels seem to be learning what the humans are planning and focused their attack on EVA-01.

The importance of EVA-01 was confirmed last episode by Ritsuko saying that the goal is the retreaval of the EVA-01, with or without the pilot in tact.

Finally - Misato says that Shinji cannot be present for the interview with SEEL because he is "too emotionally unstable" - suggesting that he is ineffective at this point as a pilot.

So:

1. Humans and specifically NERV, SEEL, Gendo are running out of time

2. The Angels have become more dangerous because they learned the plan (probably when they infected Magi)

3. Shinji is emotionally unstable/unfit - there is a risk he won't be able to do what needs to be done

4. Toji is visiting his sister

1-3 STRONGLY suggest that they will need a new pilot from the pool of potential pilots.

4. being juxtaposed with 1-3 strongly suggests Toji will be that pilot.

4. "happens" to feature Toji visiting his sister at the hospital, and two nurses talking about how sensitive and caring he is.

MOVING ON -

EVA-04 is destroyed, swalloed by a Sea of Dalic, just like EVA-01 in the last episode - suggesting an Angel. This is done to further build anxiety.

Gendo examines the Dummy plug. Ritsko explains that "it is not possible to digitize a human mind and soul" - Gendo counters that the dummy plug will send a signal which EVA will recieve which will make EVA THINK that there is a human pilot inside and "that is enough."

Question: what part of EVA will recieve this signal? Certainly not the soul-part, because it's "not possible to digitize."

So what part?

The answer is a couple episodes prior when an Angel invades the MAGI. Ritsuko explains that the MAGI was the first computer to have a human personality transfered into it, and Misato explains that it's the same system used in the EVAs.

This computer will be what recieves the signal.

The EVA is therefore a human soul of the body of a god made possible by science which - as Gendo states even further back in Antarctica - "has cleansed the world of sin" and "allows humans to live where they should not live."

Fuyutski says he prefers a world where it's just possible to live.

This is one of their long running debates.

But the point here is that now we're getting somewhere concrete in terms of what an EVA is.

I mentioned earlier that the easthetic of the EVA looks like something out of a sado-masochistic BDSM porn film - especially EVA-00 which looks like its' entire human face and head is in a clamp that is all encasing. The binders around the EVA as "science" - they are the computers that manipulate and regulate it. Its' power (the body of god) comes from having copied it from ADAM, and its' soul is human (mother in the case of EVA-01 and 02).

The development of the dummy plug is sped up because Shinji is "emotionally unstable."

With the Angels becoming more intelligent - it becomes necessary to look for alternatives. All the alternatives are wrought with uncertainty.

Ritsuko states that the dummy plug's use is not recommended at this time.

And then comes the key line:

"There is one child whose core can be prepared immediately."

Gendo states "then I trust you to make it so."

This clearly implies that it was NOT YET MADE.

EVA-03 has no core at this point.

NOTE:

Re - Keith's question "why can't they use Kenski?" -- because Kenskie is gone. He went on a trip to gawk at a new battle ship

RESUMPTION

NOTE:

First major implication -beyond the glasses - that Gendo is sleeping with Rei....Rei says "Thank you...words of gratitude...words that I have never used...not even to him." (flash to glasses)

RESUMPTION:

Strongly implied that Gendo engineered the destruction of EVA-04 and the S2 engine and reprisal from SEEL is expected.

why did Gendo do this?

Because he wants to have all the EVAs under his control.

Now the Americans, paniced at the fate of EVA-04 are sending unit 03 to Gendo.

What happens when SEEL has access to other EVAs ? - EOE.

....

Anyways - Kenskei is back... and I get all sentimental when I see the scene where Incho (class rep) and Toji have their little "cooking" talk.

um...

now I think I'll go to sleep

Pete

[David Hingtgen]

Reading deep into the lines coupled with the foreshadowing---I see that as saying Gendo ordered Touji's sister to be killed, to make her soul available for EVA-03.

[Gubaba]

Ok - here goes:

1. The beginning of the episode juxtaposes SEEL's interogation of Misato with Toji's visit to his SISTER at the hospital. The end of the interrogation features SEEL coming to the conclusions that:

"We're running out of time"

Because the Angels appear to be getting more intelligent.

Their intelligence was their attempt to swallow EVA-01. EVA-01 is the key to SEEL's Instrumentality Project AND to Gendo's dream of Godhood. The Angels seem to be learning what the humans are planning and focused their attack on EVA-01.

The importance of EVA-01 was confirmed last episode by Ritsuko saying that the goal is the retreaval of the EVA-01, with or without the pilot in tact.

Finally - Misato says that Shinji cannot be present for the interview with SEEL because he is "too emotionally unstable" - suggesting that he is ineffective at this point as a pilot.

So:

1. Humans and specifically NERV, SEEL, Gendo are running out of time

2. The Angels have become more dangerous because they learned the plan (probably when they infected Magi)

3. Shinji is emotionally unstable/unfit - there is a risk he won't be able to do what needs to be done

4. Toji is visiting his sister

1-3 STRONGLY suggest that they will need a new pilot from the pool of potential pilots.

4. being juxtaposed with 1-3 strongly suggests Toji will be that pilot.

4. "happens" to feature Toji visiting his sister at the hospital, and two nurses talking about how sensitive and caring he is.

Conversely, he could "happen" to visit because A) his connection his sister is what made him hate Shinji-as-Eva-pilot back at the beginning of the series. Or, since Toi's caring for his sister is really the only credible reason for the Class Rep to say that she likes "his kindness," it could be a reminder of that.

MOVING ON -

EVA-04 is destroyed, swalloed by a Sea of Dalic, just like EVA-01 in the last episode - suggesting an Angel. This is done to further build anxiety.

Gendo examines the Dummy plug. Ritsko explains that "it is not possible to digitize a human mind and soul" - Gendo counters that the dummy plug will send a signal which EVA will recieve which will make EVA THINK that there is a human pilot inside and "that is enough."

Question: what part of EVA will recieve this signal? Certainly not the soul-part, because it's "not possible to digitize."

So what part?

The answer is a couple episodes prior when an Angel invades the MAGI. Ritsuko explains that the MAGI was the first computer to have a human personality transfered into it, and Misato explains that it's the same system used in the EVAs.

This computer will be what recieves the signal.

The EVA is therefore a human soul of the body of a god made possible by science which - as Gendo states even further back in Antarctica - "has cleansed the world of sin" and "allows humans to live where they should not live."

Fuyutski says he prefers a world where it's just possible to live.

This is one of their long running debates.

But the point here is that now we're getting somewhere concrete in terms of what an EVA is.

I mentioned earlier that the easthetic of the EVA looks like something out of a sado-masochistic BDSM porn film - especially EVA-00 which looks like its' entire human face and head is in a clamp that is all encasing. The binders around the EVA as "science" - they are the computers that manipulate and regulate it. Its' power (the body of god) comes from having copied it from ADAM, and its' soul is human (mother in the case of EVA-01 and 02).

The development of the dummy plug is sped up because Shinji is "emotionally unstable."

With the Angels becoming more intelligent - it becomes necessary to look for alternatives. All the alternatives are wrought with uncertainty.

Ritsuko states that the dummy plug's use is not recommended at this time.

And then comes the key line:

"There is one child whose core can be prepared immediately."

Gendo states "then I trust you to make it so."

This clearly implies that it was NOT YET MADE.

EVA-03 has no core at this point.

Not necessarily. They do have to "reconfigure" the core for each pilot, which takes time. I interpet "prepare" to mean, "get the core ready." The core is part of the Eva's body. It doesn't LOOK like something you could simply pluck out and put back in, at least.

I'll have to watch the episode to make sure, but I have a feeling that the "I trust you to make it so," is simply some form common Japanese verb "makaseru," which means "Leave it to [you]." Gendo says it a lot, and the translators always seem to be looking for new English synonyms for it.

Strongly implied that Gendo engineered the destruction of EVA-04 and the S2 engine and reprisal from SEEL is expected.

Huh? I never got that impression...how is this strong implied?

[Freiflug88]

I don't have EVA on DVD, but if I remember correctly Misato and Risko discuss how Touji's core is all ready and that he has agreed to becoming the 4th child on the condition that his sister get the best possible care while the camera focus him on leaving the hospital presumably from visiting his sister. If that is the case then Touji's sister definitely couldn't be the core if the EVA's core while she lays wounded in the hospital bed.

Whats more though we all know Gendo plays people like cards, but he has never been shown to actually have someone killed unless they were really asking for it. I mean he waited until Kaji kidnapped his only friend Fuyutsuki despite knowing that he was traitor for some time and who in the right mind wouldn't consider shooting Ritsuko in cold blood after threatening to shoot you in the back? As heartless as Gendo may appear Yui did see a lot of compassion in him and their is no evidence that Gendo ever once killed anyone merely for the sake of having a soul to harvest for a core. Consider that Asuka and Ritsuko's mothers both committed suicide and of course Yui voluntarily merged with EVA-01 and never looked back. Shinji merged with EVA-01 and then chose to live life and was actually REBORN from a puddle of primordial soup. One would think that people supposedly murdered or in Touji's sister's case supposedly died struggling to survive from wounds would jump at the case to be reborn from the EVA's cores rather then accept their fate like Yui or suicidal people.

But that's besides the point, because as Pete & I have already shown, 00 blows away the whole "only the pilot's mother" theory. Again, none of this goes against Gainax, just extrapilates from what they do give us.

I believe that the soul has to be "a mother," but not necessarily the pilot's mother. That would explain why they even bothered putting Kaworu in EVA-02 with Asaka's mom still in the core of EVA-02. It also explains why all the motherless children in Shinji's class would be compatible EVA pilots: If they never bonded with a mother then it would be natural for their souls to accept and synch with the soul of any mother.

As for the Dummy Plug system and Rei I believe they work with EVA because they were all cloned from Lillith who is not just any angel, but the "mother of humanity." So in there case they could be the mother in the EVA-pilot relationship for a change and make EVA-00 the rebelious daughter.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Freiflug88