neon genesis evangelion

[VFTF1]

That's because you exist in your own delusional world.

Actually, WE all exist in Kieth's delusional world.

Pete

[Keith]

That's because you exist in your own delusional world.

Yo momma!

[VFTF1]

Yo momma!

Second Freudian slip in a row

Pete

[wolfx]

Omedetou, Keith-san.

[Keith]

Second Freudian slip in a row

Pete

Fruedian slp jinai! It's a colloquialism damnit!

[Gui]

Actually, WE all exist in Kieth's delusional world.

Pete

You have read too much Philip K. Dick stuff...

[VFTF1]

You have read too much Philip K. Dick stuff...

I have never read any of his books. But I saw the Blade Runner movie, and also managed to see a fantastic theatrical adaptation of Palmer Eldrich... Chew-zee...Cand-ee...

Pete

[taksraven]

Maybe Evangelion ending speculation is pointless at the moment because I am sure that with the new movie series we will have another DIFFERENT ending to debate about. (Lets hope that the new ending is just as confusing as the others)

Taksraven

[Mr March]

It's always been pointless

But I am hoping the movies will be better than the series. It would be a shame if such quality mechanical design remained wasted on a lousy TV series

Edited December 24, 2008 by Mr March

[taksraven]

It's always been pointless

But I am hoping the movies will be better than the series. It would be a shame if such quality mechanical design remained wasted on a lousy TV series

Spoken like a true tech fanatic. (Thats meant as a compliment)

I thought that the original series was pretty good. It was only really let down by a total lack of budget for the last 5 or 6 episodes. (And even then they still managed to produce some good stuff.)

The only other thing that annoys me was that some of the Angel designs struck me as a bit lazy, especially the "glowing thread" one.

Actually, here is another question from the TV series that I have heard debated before and I would be interested to hear the opinion of others here.

Who really killed Ryoji Kaji?? Misato or some unnamed agent. (I always thought that it worked better dramatically if it had been Misato that killed him)

And another question, what do you think Gendo said after the line "The truth is....." (Or whatever) and then it goes silent and you see him just mouthing the words before he shoots Ritsuko in End of Evangelion.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Who really killed Ryoji Kaji?? Misato or some unnamed agent. (I always thought that it worked better dramatically if it had been Misato that killed him)

It couldn't have been Misato - why would she be scared to pick up the phone (aka anticipating a farewell message) from Kaji?

She clearly FEARED that he was dead/had been killed when the intelligence agents came to give her her weapon and ID back.

She came home - and there was a message on her phone and her fear/anticipation grew - and then she cried knowing that Kaji must have also expected he'd get killed so he called her to say goodbye.

Misato wouldn't have killed Kaji.

No frickin' way.

The agent did - and would have. She was a NERV plant the whole time.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Spoken like a true tech fanatic. (Thats meant as a compliment)

I thought that the original series was pretty good. It was only really let down by a total lack of budget for the last 5 or 6 episodes. (And even then they still managed to produce some good stuff.)

The only other thing that annoys me was that some of the Angel designs struck me as a bit lazy, especially the "glowing thread" one.

Actually, here is another question from the TV series that I have heard debated before and I would be interested to hear the opinion of others here.

Who really killed Ryoji Kaji?? Misato or some unnamed agent. (I always thought that it worked better dramatically if it had been Misato that killed him)

And another question, what do you think Gendo said after the line "The truth is....." (Or whatever) and then it goes silent and you see him just mouthing the words before he shoots Ritsuko in End of Evangelion.

Taksraven

I agree with VFTF1...it absolutely can't have been Misato who killed Kaji. It goes against her character, and it goes against the way she acts afterwards.

In the comic (which may or may not be canonical in situations where the anime is vague), the hand holding the gun has a Gendo-style glove on...but there was something that made it clear it wasn't Gendo (can't remember what that was, though...it's been a while since I read it). I think it was an unnamed NERV flunky, really...and Kaji's appearance of recognition was not due to his knowing the assassin, but rather knowing what the assassin was going to do ("Oh, hi there. So you're the guy who's going to kill me, huh? How ya doin'?").

As for Gendo..."Truly, I loved you" is the most obvious guess, but it does seem a little trite. Personally, I like EvaOtaku's old theory that it was "Truly, I...needed you." But it'll always be a mystery, and I like it like that. Just like I don't really want to know what Bill Murray whispered to Scarlett Johansen at the end of "Lost in Translation."

[VFTF1]

Just like I don't really want to know what Bill Murray whispered to Scarlett Johansen at the end of "Lost in Translation."

Actually that has been figured out - there's a youtube of it being amplified and it's something silly like "I like ice cream" or "I'll call you" or something - I can't remember... and I'm totally not trying to be funny or sarcastic - I honest to goodness can't remember the line because it was so forgetable.

But then again - maybe it could have been a fake? I'm a sucker for fakes...

As for Gendo whispering to Ritusko - I always thought it was "I really loved you" - but given Gendo's character, that doesn't mean he actually did really love her. It's no different from a mafia style "kiss of death."

Edit: Also - another reason it couldn't have been Misato. She caught Kaji trying to break into central dogma earlier and technically should have shot him when he swiped that security card - but Kaji was counting on her not being able to kill him, and also on her wanting to know the truth. That's also why Kaji slipped her the pill later - Misato was a good person

Pete

Edited December 24, 2008 by VFTF1

[Mr March]

Spoken like a true tech fanatic. (Thats meant as a compliment)

I thought that the original series was pretty good. It was only really let down by a total lack of budget for the last 5 or 6 episodes. (And even then they still managed to produce some good stuff.)

The only other thing that annoys me was that some of the Angel designs struck me as a bit lazy, especially the "glowing thread" one.

Taksraven

*bows*

I'd rather honestly praise NGE for the mechanical design credit it justly deserves than support the lousy mechanical designs in other anime shows just because I don't like NGE. One must give credit where credit is due. As for NGE itself, like I've always said, I'd rather watch a creative failure than an overrated piece of forgettable mediocrity. I didn't like NGE, but it's not the first anime series I didn't like and it won't be the last. It was at least worth a shot, which is much more than I can say for a certain other crap mecha series (here's looking at you Gundam Wing).

You know, it's funny. So many critics, and even more than a few NGE fans complain about the lack of motion and actual animation in the NGE series. Personally, I thought this was a brilliant solution to save money which allowed the animators to produce some really amazing animated sequences on a TV budget. It also allowed the creative team to achieve some animated sequences which ordinarily wouldn't have been possible on their budget. When I criticize NGE (and I do love to do so) it certainly wasn't because the animation style wasn't engaging. Those long, inactive and introspective sequences with little to no actual animation perfectly suited both the tone of the series and the themes the story was exploring. With all the yammering over the years about people who don't "get it", I've found that what most fans and non-fans alike completely miss is how much the composition and set design of NGE contributed to make the show what it is, for better or worse.

[yellowlightman]

You know, it's funny. So many critics, and even more than a few NGE fans complain about the lack of motion and actual animation in the NGE series. Personally, I thought this was a brilliant solution to save money which allowed the animators to produce some really amazing animated sequences on a TV budget. It also allowed the creative team to achieve some animated sequences which ordinarily wouldn't have been possible on their budget.

A lot of shows do that. It's called not having enough money to animate in-betweens.

[Gubaba]

*bows*

I'd rather honestly praise NGE for the mechanical design credit it justly deserves than support the lousy mechanical designs in other anime shows just because I don't like NGE. One must give credit where credit is due. As for NGE itself, like I've always said, I'd rather watch a creative failure than an overrated piece of forgettable mediocrity. I didn't like NGE, but it's not the first anime series I didn't like and it won't be the last. It was at least worth a shot, which is much more than I can say for a certain other crap mecha series (here's looking at you Gundam Wing).

You know, it's funny. So many critics, and even more than a few NGE fans complain about the lack of motion and actual animation in the NGE series. Personally, I thought this was a brilliant solution to save money which allowed the animators to produce some really amazing animated sequences on a TV budget. It also allowed the creative team to achieve some animated sequences which ordinarily wouldn't have been possible on their budget. When I criticize NGE (and I do love to do so) it certainly wasn't because the animation style wasn't engaging. Those long, inactive and introspective sequences with little to no actual animation perfectly suited both the tone of the series and the themes the story was exploring. With all the yammering over the years about people who don't "get it", I've found that what most fans and non-fans alike completely miss is how much the composition and set design of NGE contributed to make the show what it is, for better or worse.

Y'know, for someone who doesn't like the show, you have a keen grasp of what makes it such a well-directed series...

[VFTF1]

For the record, Mr. March also hates Macross. He just happens to be a super genius who takes pity on us and provides us with a coherent world-view that makes our hobby seem important. Without him we'd all be doooomed.

Pete

[Gubaba]

For the record, Mr. March also hates Macross. He just happens to be a super genius who takes pity on us and provides us with a coherent world-view that makes our hobby seem important. Without him we'd all be doooomed.

Pete

He probably hates kittens, sunsets, and hot fudge sundaes, too.

[electric indigo]

I agree that the mechanical design of Ikuto Yamashita has yet to be surpassed.

Does anybody have a clue what is going on in his Dengeki Hobby Magazine side story "NGE Anima"?

Edited December 24, 2008 by electric indigo

[Mr March]

yellow

I think it's understood that we're talking a step beyond that.

Gubaba

I know my film, animated or otherwise. Disliking a given production doesn't mean one must remain ignorant (*collective gasp*). Yes, I know that's a rather foreign concept among the knee-jerking, but vocal minority that sometimes seems to dominate the internet, but it happens to be true. I dislike the films of Quentin Tarantino as well, but I recognize and acknowledge his great use of the fractured narrative, his non-linear visual structures and contribution his influential films have made in the industry.

NGE may suck, but one cannot deny it's place in anime history, justified or not though it may be.

VFTF1

"Reports of any dislike I may have for Macross are greatly exaggerated" (except Macross 7)

[lord_breetai]

A lot of shows do that. It's called not having enough money to animate in-betweens.

GITS: SAC stands out as one of the worst for this with their mechanical teleptathy scenes.

[yellowlightman]

yellow

I think it's understood that we're talking a step beyond that.

Uh, no. You're just heaping on a series for doing something that plenty of other anime series do as a cost-cutting measure.

Edited December 25, 2008 by yellowlightman

[Keith]

It's not 100% official yet, but it looks like Funimation has licensed 1.0

[yellowlightman]

It's not 100% official yet, but it looks like Funimation has licensed 1.0

That's probably a sure thing. Assuming the film is actually going to be released in the US, I can't think of any other company that has the financial ability right now to release it.

[Mr March]

Uh, no. You're just heaping on a series for doing something that plenty of other anime series do as a cost-cutting measure.

Nope. Try again.

[yellowlightman]

Nope. Try again.

How short and snippy can we make each each consecutive reply?

[taksraven]

How short and snippy can we make each each consecutive reply?

Real short.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Uh, no. You're just heaping on a series for doing something that plenty of other anime series do as a cost-cutting measure.

Let's get out of the vicious snippiness cycle with a bunch of smiley faces...

:D :D :D :D

OK, now that that's over and done with...I think you're missing Mr. March's point. As I understand it, he was saying that the static quality of certain scenes and backgrounds, while done in pretty much every anime series, was used...let's say more intelligently in Eva. Scenes such as the dimly-lit train car sequences, Shinji talking to himself while trapped inside the 12th Angel, and of course the infamous Elevator Sequence were purposefully minimal, and done in a way that was effective, given what those scenes were communicating. Being minimal in those scenes allowed the animators to really go above and beyond in a lot of the fight sequences, delivering OVA-quality animation on a TV-sized budget.

For a concrete example, just look at episodes 17 and 18, the "Fourth Child" Episodes. 17 and the first half 18 are very static, pushing the story along primarily through dialogue, but the lack of motion (and repetition of certain key images) are presented in a smart way that helps build the tension. When everything does finally go apeshit towards the end of episode 18, the animation is outstanding, because it needs to be. Even then, static shots of Eva blood dripping from traffic lights, the faces of NERV staffers frozen in horror, and the animation loop of EVA-01 pounding and punding away help conserve the budget while heightening the horror of the scene.

Compare this to, say, Macross 7 (which yes, is perhaps TOO easy a target), where if less money had been spent in certain areas (I'm not sure where, though) and deployed in more crucial places (this being Macross 7, I would put it in the combat and concert sequences...but I seem to be the only person in the world who is annoyed by the fact that Basara only rarely looks like he's actually PLAYING the guitar rather than just strumming a single chord over and over again), the series might have fewer detractors.

At least, that's how I read it.

[VFTF1]

You're not the only one who can't take his eyes of off Bassara and Rey's static hands just being THERE while music play...

And yes - NGE actually demonstrated how important a good director is to an anime...unless I'm talking out of my bungolo here - but I assume that these were the director's choices? In any event - it was perfect. It's certainly not a random "oh drat - no more money - just show this wall for 10 minutes."

Sometimes, I get the feeling that people tend to confuse "vacuous" with "complex." NGE is not vacuous - it's not just a matter of "oh we had no money."

The wiki has them saying that they had no money AND decided therefore to show the audience their frustration and what they were going through. By "show them" it is not meant "give them shoddy animation hah hah" but rather use those frustrated emotions to build something different.

It's kind of like anime on the fly - anime that is a constant rehearsal towards becoming a better anime.

And maybe that's why NGE has so many remakes and movies- the format is so open ended that it really calls for different artistic interpretations - particularly since form is so key to the communication of content in NGE.

Pete

[Gubaba]

You're not the only one who can't take his eyes of off Bassara and Rey's static hands just being THERE while music play...

And yes - NGE actually demonstrated how important a good director is to an anime...unless I'm talking out of my bungolo here - but I assume that these were the director's choices? In any event - it was perfect. It's certainly not a random "oh drat - no more money - just show this wall for 10 minutes."

Sometimes, I get the feeling that people tend to confuse "vacuous" with "complex." NGE is not vacuous - it's not just a matter of "oh we had no money."

The wiki has them saying that they had no money AND decided therefore to show the audience their frustration and what they were going through. By "show them" it is not meant "give them shoddy animation hah hah" but rather use those frustrated emotions to build something different.

I'm not sure I'd trust Wikipedia on this topic...there are so many conflicting reports on what was going through Gainax's collective mind towards the finale of Eva (much of it coming from Gainax themselves), that it's safest probably just to ignore EVERY rationale you hear.

It's kind of like anime on the fly - anime that is a constant rehearsal towards becoming a better anime.

And maybe that's why NGE has so many remakes and movies- the format is so open ended that it really calls for different artistic interpretations - particularly since form is so key to the communication of content in NGE.

Pete

You probably know this (it's from the article written by Anno for Volume One of the Eva comic), but Anno stated that Eva was an artistic failure...and he said it before the series had even premiered. Even if it's true (and for the reason I stated above, I have my doubts), sometimes the magic is there and a single artistic failure can be more interesting and satisfying than a dozen artistic successes.

[VFTF1]

Well - it's all about context. It all depends on what Anno meant by "artistic failure." Same with the Wiki statements. It's not like they were making statements on mathematic formulaes or something "Artistic failure" could mean big success if we define art as convention and success as adhering to what is conventional... So... it all depends on the context - which I don't have access to since Wiki just gives snippets and there don't seem to be any "Making Of" books available to me

Pete

[taksraven]

NGE may suck...

BAM!!!! And down goes the sacred cow!!! :lol:

Taksraven

[Keith]

I take it no one else saw Kare Kano wher Anno set fire to sticks with paper versions of the characters attached?

[VFTF1]

Just some fair warning to Keith: Please prepare yourself to be bombarded with more questions

Tonight, I am going to sit down and watch EoE in all of its' glory, and will of course post comments in the appropriate thread tomorrow.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Just some fair warning to Keith: Please prepare yourself to be bombarded with more questions

Tonight, I am going to sit down and watch EoE in all of its' glory, and will of course post comments in the appropriate thread tomorrow.

Pete

The answer to your first question is: HELL NO, That's not some weird amalgam of Misato, Rei, and Asuka! It's just Asuka. Her eyes only LOOK brown because it's dark out.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Gubaba