neon genesis evangelion

[Keith]

In or out were the only options. The alternate reality school was representative of the fantasy existence that would occur in the egg. Rather than a reality where goals can be achieved/shot down, inside the egg would be a dreamlike existence with no real substance. The implication being that happyness can't be achieved by automatically having whatever you want however you want whenever you want. That place looked ideal, but there was no actual interaction. With everyone being one, everyone was essentially Shinji. The other people there merely reflected his whims. Shinji decided he'd rather have real interactions with people, even if that meant pain came with it.

I don't think Shinji & Asuka were the only ones to return, just the first to reform from the LCL sea. Before she leaves, Yui says everyone will regain their forms in time. The fact that Shinji & Asuka were still going at it shows that it's not a happy ending, just a realistic one.

Again, you should really check out Nadia for an alternate take on the ending.

[Keith]

Well - nothing better than an anime series that needs to be rewatched to understand...

Kieth - your explanation is something I'm going to have to re-read a few times before asking anything more except about this fragment:

If the angels do not evolve, then how was NERV able to kill the "computer virus" angel that infected the Magi by speeding up its' evolution (towards death)?

Pete

Because you suck, that's how! That angel was an interesting one though, they didn't actuall kill that one. They tricked it into coexisting with the Magi by making its only alternative to be death. But by evolve, I was referring more akin to human evolution, from one form into another. No matter what that Angel did, it was still a virus, just one that was lulled into become docile.

I'm going to sleep now, but everyone who loves Eva owes it to themselves to check out Nadia, in a lot of ways, its the blu-print for what became evangelion, plus 11 or 12 network contracted epsidoes, but that's another topic.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Keith

[lord_breetai]

I don't think Shinji & Asuka were the only ones to return, just the first to reform from the LCL sea. Before she leaves, Yui says everyone will regain their forms in time. The fact that Shinji & Asuka were still going at it shows that it's not a happy ending, just a realistic one.

Again, you should really check out Nadia for an alternate take on the ending.

I thought she said all life could return if it chose to. And Asuka was the only one at that point who chose to return. There were the "Shinji and Asuka the new Adam and Eve" theories of course.

Of course happy is a relative term... as is ending... their story is not over. Just the part that concerns us.

I will check out Nadia for the steampunky goodness and maybe stay for mind f*cking?

[lord_breetai]

In or out were the only options. The alternate reality school was representative of the fantasy existence that would occur in the egg. Rather than a reality where goals can be achieved/shot down, inside the egg would be a dreamlike existence with no real substance. The implication being that happyness can't be achieved by automatically having whatever you want however you want whenever you want. That place looked ideal, but there was no actual interaction. With everyone being one, everyone was essentially Shinji. The other people there merely reflected his whims. Shinji decided he'd rather have real interactions with people, even if that meant pain came with it.

No real interactions... I dunno, Asuka was still Asuka and giving him grief... and even more so in the Girlfriend of Steel 2 manga/game (AKA Angelic Days)... there was still pain and angst but just less of it... it didn't seem like Shinji was controlling everyone just that he was shown the chance to create a new reality where people lived less messed up lives but still lived them. Never did it say Shinji was pulling everyone's strings in that scene... wasn't be being shown this reality, as an option... not one that he made yet.

Maybe the reality in the egg would be just as real to everyone involved but different. Kinda like the Matrix... they arn't really interacting with each other but as long as everyone thinks they are, what's the difference?

[Keith]

At the point Shinji & Asuka appeared on the shore, Instrumentality had been aborted. There really was no choice but for people to regain their individual forms, since the single form existence was no longer an option. And I'm "pretty sure" Yui said that they'd regain their forms in time, not if they chose to.

As for that single form existence, again the point is that there were no real interactions period. It wasn't that everyone was having fun & whatnot, it's that everyone was literally Shinji, all placed together as a single being. Everyone shown there were fantasy images being interacted with.

[taksraven]

Just out of interest, does anybody know of any other anime programs whose ending had a level of controversy similar to Evangelion. I mean, here we are more than ten years later and people are STILL arguing about it.

Just wondering.

Taksraven

[Keith]

Just out of interest, does anybody know of any other anime programs whose ending had a level of controversy similar to Evangelion. I mean, here we are more than ten years later and people are STILL arguing about it.

Just wondering.

Taksraven

Robotech with the SDF-2? lol

[Gubaba]

At the point Shinji & Asuka appeared on the shore, Instrumentality had been aborted. There really was no choice but for people to regain their individual forms, since the single form existence was no longer an option. And I'm "pretty sure" Yui said that they'd regain their forms in time, not if they chose to.

As for that single form existence, again the point is that there were no real interactions period. It wasn't that everyone was having fun & whatnot, it's that everyone was literally Shinji, all placed together as a single being. Everyone shown there were fantasy images being interacted with.

The thing I was always curious about is...what happens next? Everyone comes back, but does the world revert to the way it was before, or is everyone stuck on a bleak world with red seas and no vegetation?

I like to think it's the former, since it would be kind of sad to think that the entire human race comes back, only to die out from starvation in a year or two.

[lord_breetai]

As for that single form existence, again the point is that there were no real interactions period. It wasn't that everyone was having fun & whatnot, it's that everyone was literally Shinji, all placed together as a single being. Everyone shown there were fantasy images being interacted with.

See I disagree with this, I don't think Seele wanted the human race reduced to Shinji's imaginary friends... how is that preferable to anyone at all?

Also it doesn't mesh with the "Me that exists in your head AND THE YOU THAT EXISTS IN MINE" it seems like there was not only one mind in the insturmentality. Besides... it makes Angelic days a pretty pointless manga if it's Shinji and figments of Shinji's imagination.

As for what Yui said about coming back, you may be right... I got that from a fansub before I spoke any Japanese at all... I'd have to rewatch it.

[taksraven]

Robotech with the SDF-2? lol

I said ANIME programs, not mangled american garbage! :P

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

I said ANIME programs, not mangled american garbage! :P

Taksraven

Hmmm...the ending of Akira is still considered controversial, I believe.

But generally, I can think of many anime endings that are considered shocking (Zambot 3, Ideon), but ones where the debate is about what actually happened at the end? Yeah...Eva and Akira are the only ones that come to mind.

[VFTF1]

what Breetai said

Have to agree with Breetai here. What Keith describes as Instrumentality sounds like Solipsism.

However; that is not what the characters in NGE tell us - since there is the I that I see and the I that others see and the "true" I is an amalgamation of these two - and since the "I that others see" is itself equivalent to saying "The I seen by the Other who itself is divided into an I that I see and and I that the Other sees (the Other looking at its' own I concurently with my own)" then there is only ONE TRUE I independent of all individual I's and composed of them.

Which also leads me to another question...Why was the choice left with Shinji?

Pete

Edited December 21, 2008 by VFTF1

[Keith]

[Human Complementation Plan] (JINRUI HOKAN KEIKAKU)

A plan to induce artificial evolution for human, who had reached an

impasse in becoming a colony of worthless, to become a total

single-form organism. It was under the direction of SEELE, and the

secret agency NERV was the implementation organisation. However, the

expectations of SEELE seems to be different from the objective of NERV

(which means the objective of Gendou and Fuyutsuki).

EVA was in fact not planned as a weapon. It was built with the aim to

realise this plan. More specifically, it seems that the plan is to

artificially start the Third Impact, thus erasing all human, and after

human shed their physical form, they will then evolute into a new

stage.

It shoudl be noted that the whole conversations of "the I who exists in" happened "before" Everyone was combined into one being. As I said before, those conversations were akin to the scenes in the movie where the many Rei's go out & lower everyones AT fields. It was getting rid of the perception of individuality in everyone before combining them into one being. Proof, Instrumentality didn't begin until the end of ep 25, after those conversations.

See I disagree with this, I don't think Seele wanted the human race reduced to Shinji's imaginary friends... how is that preferable to anyone at all?

Again, it's not that humanity was reduced into imaginary friends, it's that humanity was reduced into Shinji, with no one else "real" to interact with period. Mind you Seele didn't likely intend for him to become the dominant ego, it was Lilith/Kaworu/Rei that decided that, and left him with the ultimate decision in the matter.

Which also leads me to another question...Why was the choice left with Shinji?

Pete

Rei/Lilith/Kowaru/God (whatever you choose to call it) deemed him worthy of choosing, Plus he was the Pilot of Unit-01.

[Gubaba]

Which also leads me to another question...Why was the choice left with Shinji?

I like to think that it was Gendo trying to be the best dad in the world (think of it as the Jesus story reversed...God loved the world so much that He sacrificed His only son for it, but Gendo loved his son so much that he sacrificed the world for him), but I may be giving Gendo too much credit.

Shinji may simply have been in the right place at the right time. If Asuka had survuved long enough, and Shinji had run away after Misato died, they may have tried to enact Instrumentality with Eva-02...I wonder what world Asuka would've created?

[Keith]

I like to think that it was Gendo trying to be the best dad in the world (think of it as the Jesus story reversed...God loved the world so much that He sacrificed His only son for it, but Gendo loved his son so much that he sacrificed the world for him), but I may be giving Gendo too much credit.

Shinji may simply have been in the right place at the right time. If Asuka had survuved long enough, and Shinji had run away after Misato died, they may have tried to enact Instrumentality with Eva-02...I wonder what world Asuka would've created?

Eva Unit-02 didn't have an S2 Organ, so it wouldn't have worked. At that point in time, only adding the Adam embryo back into the Lilith body, or using Unit-01 would have worked. If Gendo had gotten his way, Instrumentality wouldn't havebeen able to start, since for it to work, humanity has to join with god. If he hijacked the original, and Yui left with as the new, that leaves no one for humanity to join with.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Keith

[Gubaba]

Eva Unit-02 didn't have an S2 Organ, so it wouldn't have worked. At that point in time, only adding the Adam embryo back into the Lilith body, or using Unit-01 would have worked. If Gendo had gotten his way, Instrumentality wouldn't havebeen able to start, since for it to work, humanity has to join with god. If he hijacked the original, and Yui left with as the new, that leaves no one for humanity to join with.

Good point.

So then it absolutely HAD to be Shinji, if only because 01 was the only Eva (besides the Eva Series) with an S2 engine...and Shinji is the only pilot that 01 would synchronize with.

Still, if 04 hadn't vanished, things could, I assume, have been different.

[lord_breetai]

oh okay... eva merits rewatching anyway... or I could wait for the new ending to the shingekijouban.

Just out of interest, does anybody know of any other anime programs whose ending had a level of controversy similar to Evangelion. I mean, here we are more than ten years later and people are STILL arguing about it.

Just wondering.

Taksraven

people still argue about if Char or Amuro died.

[Gubaba]

people still argue about if Char or Amuro died.

I thought most people the novel's ending as canonical (ie: they both died)...

[lord_breetai]

I thought most people the novel's ending as canonical (ie: they both died)...

I've still seen the movie debated.

Anyway it's refreshing to see people talking about "what happened" at the end instead of saying "it's shallow to talk about what happened you should talk about what it means".

Anyway umm I'm accuiring the last two episodes and End of Eva right now so I can re-watch it.

Edited December 22, 2008 by lord_breetai

[lord_breetai]

Okay, so far watched episode 25 of of Eva again... yeah with the use of the RCB and what Keith said I'm really starting to see what was going on. Before I always thought Shinji was made god, and could pick whatever existance he wanted... wether it was Angelic Days or the death of all or just to keep going the way things had been.... but now I see what Keith was saying.

Also I watched the first 3 episodes of Nadia and I have to say I love the show, but so far I don't see the comparison to Eva. It's much more like something Miyazaki woud do (fitting since he came up with the original concept), I love the Steampunk elements, the era clothing, the wacky inventions. But we got a trio of comedy bad guys with all the grace of Team Rocket, They have an all purpose robotic vehicle which waves a white flag with robotic arms when it wants to surrender... we've got all kinds of comic expressions and sound effects going on... in Episode 3 we've got a cook who fools the kids into thinking he's a scientist, and an American Naval captain who laughs manically while fighting shouting "no mercy to the bad guys", they keep their prisoners locked up in their all purpose attack craft which gets thrown overboard allowing them to escape in the ensuing battle with the "sea monsters".

It does seem a little jeuvanile although very fun... and right up my ally.

It's also really interesting for me to see Hidaka Noriko (Noriko from Gunbuster, Erica from the Sakura Taisen series) providing the voice of the main male lead... I've never heard her do a boy before.

The other thing I didn't know before, was that Tatsunoko Pro did enough of the animation on Eva to get themselves a main title credit for it. I couldn't read Japanese back when I originally watched Eva... so I missed that.

When Gainax was hard up for cash at the end, maybe they should have just signed over international distrobution rights to TatPro instead of paying them for the last couple episodes... hey it worked for Studio Nue and Big West.

[taksraven]

Good point.

So then it absolutely HAD to be Shinji, if only because 01 was the only Eva (besides the Eva Series) with an S2 engine...and Shinji is the only pilot that 01 would synchronize with.

Don't forget, it could have been an angel as well.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

oh okay... eva merits rewatching anyway... or I could wait for the new ending to the shingekijouban.

people still argue about if Char or Amuro died.

Yeah, I thought about that one after I posted the original message. That is one that I do not expect to ever be resolved or rewritten.

Taksraven

[Keith]

Nadia does start off pretty light, but as it goes into Neo Atlantis territory, you'll see more similarities.

[VFTF1]

.I wonder what world Asuka would've created?

My first inclination was to think of a hot spa with her and Kaji - and Misato. And she would likely has Misato there just to show her that Kaji prefers Asuka. "See - stupid Misato! Kaji wants a real woman like me! With good development and no physical and mental deformities! Kaji thinks I'm the best! Kaji says you don't even come close!"

But then - I imagine that slowly but surely, Kaji will start to treat Asuka "like any other chick" - kind of like Asuka's father gave Asuka's mother the impression that he had more important things in life than her.

This would ultimately lead to Asuka having suicidal thoughts as Kaji morphedi into her father - all while Misato was watching.

Now Misato and Asuka's roles would be reversed.

Misato: Hah! Stupid Asuka! All men use you and then leave you for something more important! You were silly and childish to think that it would be different with Kaji! That's why Kaji loves me and only me - because I don't make so much demands on him! You are one big walking demand on humanity - you demand people's time, recognition, love, affection - without them you're nothing! In fact...you're just like...

*Shinji suddenly appears*

"Shinji Baka?!"

Shinji: Yes. We are the same - you and I. We both need people and wait for them to notice us - or at least I wait, but you tug at them until they acknowledge you. I remember when Misato asked me at one point "what's wrong?" and I answered her "nothing." And she said - "Shinji - do you know that when you say 'nothing' in that tone of voice - then you are actually asking people to notice you?" Well Asuka - you do not say 'nothing' - you say "Nothing is wrong! Everything is right! I'm the best! I'll fix whatever you think is wrong, I, I I!..." but it's the same as my "nothing" - it's a way for you to demand that people notice you. This is why - you and I are the same."

Asuka: No!

Shinji: And this is why we never noticed eachother - even though we share so much.

Asuka: Shinji Baka! Everything you say is stupid!

....

And in my mind - I would imagine that at this point Shinji would realize that for the first time in his life, he actually loves a girl Namely Asuka. Because Asuka shows him a different - distinctly female way of dealing with his inner problems (which she shares).

They would actually be the perfect couple.

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

I thought most people the novel's ending as canonical (ie: they both died)...

My view is that Tomino directed Chars Counterattack. They're deader than flares.

[VFTF1]

Ok - I watched episode 26 now - and one thing has stuck out. In this thread, Kieth gave some pretty logical reasons as to why the choice fell to Shinji.

So...

My question is this:

Who is the "narrator" in Episode 25? The literal narrator - meaning who is/are the ...words...

Because the words say that the only reason Shinji is choosing is because there is no time to focus on everyone else...

This suggests that each person was given the same choice as Shinji and had to go through the same psychological or psycho-analytical path as him.

Does this mean that some people might have chosen to remain with Instrumentality?

Pete

[Keith]

Actually, it says that there's no time, so the episode is focusing on Shinji. As for who, it's the production staff.

[VFTF1]

Are we sure it's the production staff? After all - later the same "narrative words" answer many of Shinji's questions - and Rei's and Asuka's - as if the narrative words were the people themselves (as if Shinji was asking himself and then listening to the answer).

I think the narrative might have been some kind of sub-consciousness generated by the process of merging all human souls..?

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

Are we sure it's the production staff? After all - later the same "narrative words" answer many of Shinji's questions - and Rei's and Asuka's - as if the narrative words were the people themselves (as if Shinji was asking himself and then listening to the answer).

I think the narrative might have been some kind of sub-consciousness generated by the process of merging all human souls..?

Pete

for a good portion of 3 years after watching eva, my mind was constantly jacked into trying to figure out the meaning of everything in eva. and those days were crazy... like an endless dream. thank god for Angels Anonymous, i was able to kick the habit.

curse the smell of alcohol that you're waving under my nose!

Edited December 23, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[wolfx]

I probably have rewatched EVA 4-5 times and each time i come up with a different "fan-theory". I love it.

[taksraven]

My view is that Tomino directed Chars Counterattack. They're deader than flares.

No way man, flares are koming back in, I saw it in my horoscope!

Taksraven

[miriya]

No way man, flares are koming back in, I saw it in my horoscope!

Taksraven

Oh my!

Tell me that is you and tell me that you rolled that beuaty!

It reminds me of last friday night.

[Keith]

Oh my!

Tell me that is you and tell me that you rolled that beuaty!

It reminds me of last friday night.

I actually think that's one of "The Young Ones."

[Keith]

I probably have rewatched EVA 4-5 times and each time i come up with a different "fan-theory". I love it.

I've watched it a couple more times than that, and have stood firm in mine

[yellowlightman]

I've watched it a couple more times than that, and have stood firm in mine

That's because you exist in your own delusional world.