neon genesis evangelion

[F-ZeroOne]

Odd thing about Anno - he seems to crop up a lot in the background; apparently he did some uncredited work on Project A-Ko. There was a time when DVDs were just starting to get commentaries and there was a period where I would have been surprised if his name wasn't mentioned eventually on a commentary track...

If you liked Eva, you could always try the original (unfortunately not available commercially at present) - Space Runaway Ideon...

[taksraven]

Odd thing about Anno - he seems to crop up a lot in the background; apparently he did some uncredited work on Project A-Ko. There was a time when DVDs were just starting to get commentaries and there was a period where I would have been surprised if his name wasn't mentioned eventually on a commentary track...

If you liked Eva, you could always try the original (unfortunately not available commercially at present) - Space Runaway Ideon...

Yeah, very similar ending.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Yes, I realize that the ending is similar to Ideon - that much I was aware of, though I have yet to see Ideon - yet

As for it being a cheap way for Gainax to finish production - of course, the director stated as much - but he also said that rather than quit, they decided to show what the team was going through; to mirror that in the ending... So I don't think that you can say the ending was unreflective.

I always found it to be very beautiful and moving, and actually very well thought out - it was almost as though the budget constraints had a positive effect and led them to make a far more involved ending than otherwise would have been produced.

I have nothing against End of Evangelon - in fact, I do not see how it conflicts with the TV series. The TV series shows us the psychological perspective of the ending while EoE gives us a more physical, chronological one.

Anyways - my point wasn't to discuss the ending as such - it was to use the ending as a spring board to discuss the Instrumentality Project; whether it is a viable, desirable idea or not.

As for Ideon - I do have to get around to watching it.

Pete

[taksraven]

What bugs me most about the Instrumentality Project is the way that it was forced on people. No democratic choice, no opt out option, just a bunch of politicians and eggheads deciding "this is whats best for people". To me, that would be insulting.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

What bugs me most about the Instrumentality Project is the way that it was forced on people. No democratic choice, no opt out option, just a bunch of politicians and eggheads deciding "this is whats best for people". To me, that would be insulting.

Well - that's what Misato argued too. But Ritskuo then told her that, contrary to her words - she chose Instrumentality.

See, the people behind Instrumentality would argue that each human beings' desire to escape loneliness and find happiness the same as choosing Instrumentality, which is the best and only way to escape loneliness and find happiness.

In this sense, Instrumentality is perfect democracy.

But you're right - it's also insulting - I think mainly because it takes away the possibility to make the WRONG CHOICE and deal with the consequences which is a big part of being human, rather than just a rat in cage...

I sometimes wonder whether - in that sense- Gendo, Ritsuko and the others all basically looked at humans the way they looked at Ayanami Rei... just something to be controlled, experimented with...

Ironically - it is the EVA, particularly in her Berserker mode, that is most human - she acts to save her child, a very primal desire... I wonder - does EVA (Yui) also become part of Instrumentality? It would seem so.

Pete

[taksraven]

Well - that's what Misato argued too. But Ritskuo then told her that, contrary to her words - she chose Instrumentality.

See, the people behind Instrumentality would argue that each human beings' desire to escape loneliness and find happiness the same as choosing Instrumentality, which is the best and only way to escape loneliness and find happiness.

In this sense, Instrumentality is perfect democracy.

But you're right - it's also insulting - I think mainly because it takes away the possibility to make the WRONG CHOICE and deal with the consequences which is a big part of being human, rather than just a rat in cage...

I sometimes wonder whether - in that sense- Gendo, Ritsuko and the others all basically looked at humans the way they looked at Ayanami Rei... just something to be controlled, experimented with...

Ironically - it is the EVA, particularly in her Berserker mode, that is most human - she acts to save her child, a very primal desire... I wonder - does EVA (Yui) also become part of Instrumentality? It would seem so.

Pete

Depends on how much of Yui was left. I always had the impression that there was certainly a human intelligence in Eva but I don't think that it was always necessarily one that was aware of what was always going on.

The other problem with instruementality is that it seems to factor out the possibility that humanity may not be alone in the universe.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Depends on how much of Yui was left. I always had the impression that there was certainly a human intelligence in Eva but I don't think that it was always necessarily one that was aware of what was always going on.

Hm - well, of course it's very hard to be sure - but I was actually under the impression that Gendo deliberately led to the accident in which Yui was merged with EVA-01. And it would not be hard to concieve that Ritsuko's mother would have helped him do it - given that she was clearly having an affair with Gendo, and probably saw the short sighted possibility of removing Yui and maybe having Gendo marry her instead (therefore she helped get rid of Yui out of jealousy). For Gendo's part - having Yui merge with EVA would not only be an interesting experiment in its' own right - but above all, would clear the way for EVA to have such a near perfect synchronosation ratio with Shinji...Yui's son.

So, I think the intention was to give EVA a very specific human soul - and the fact that we don't see more of her humanity in EVA except snippets (saving Shinji, taking pity on Misato and releasing Shinji back into the world etc) - is only due to the restaints placed on EVA which allow it to be controled - it's hard for EVA's humanity to break through those restraints, and it only happens when Yui's maternal instincts are piqued by external dangers (physical or psychological) to Shinji.

The other problem with instruementality is that it seems to factor out the possibility that humanity may not be alone in the universe.

This is a good point - particularly if we're going to accept all of the wild and fantastical ideas in Evangelon - BUT....

I think that Neon Genesis Evangelon would be premised amongst other things on the notion that we are...alone in the universe. This is what makes Instrumentality all the more pressing and the quest for it all the more deseperate - because in NGE - humanity knows it is alone and people can't bear to live with that sad fact.

So - I think it would actually ruin the story to even imagine other beings in the NGE galaxy - it would take away one of the basis foundations that the whole drama is built around: we are alone.

Pete

[boinger]

After reading through some of the posted evangelion essays, I found an evangelion fan edit on youtube.

Gendou is a pimp with his own theme music!

[F-ZeroOne]

Yeah, very similar ending.

Taksraven

Nah - Cosmo gets a far better deal than Shinji ever did...

If anyones interested, good and pretty heroic overview of Ideon here:

http://counter-x.blogspot.com/2008/12/ideon-full-guide.html

[Keith]

::scratches head::

NO! As MW's semi-retired (in that I haven't watched the series in several years) self proclaimed Eva guru (ask Milkman X), I feel obligated to make some corrections here.

First & foremost, Yui's joining with Eva-01 was not a plot by Naoko Akagi, or Gendo, but entirely of her own doing. Which takes us into another matter of topic here, which is if there are other beings in the Eva universe.

First Impact was the arrival of Lilith (and in Eva Lilith refers to two beings, the first that we see being the "Lilith" on the cross in Terminal dogma, who was also the origin of Rei's soul. The second is the God Lilith whom we don't see until the very end, and she was the combination of Adam & Lilith as a single being), during first Impact, Lilith seperated into 2 beings/eggs, one fell in antarctica, the other in the location that would become Tokyo 3. So basically, in Eva, all life on the planet was caused by alien seeding of Earth (also similar to the origins of man in Nadia). Flash forward to the Eva-01 synch tests, aside from the necessity to have a loving female soul in the Eva in order for a pilot to synch with it, Yui chose to join with Eva Unit-01 so that she could become a new god, travel through space, and repeat the events that caused life on Earth by seeding life on another world. Gendo willingly assisted her with this, but selfishly tried to use Rei to help him become a god too, so that he might also leave with Yui (and that was Gendo's grand scheme through the whole series).

Now onto Instrumentality, and the most important thing to remember between the TV ending & the movie ending, is that they're the exact same ending. No qualms were made during the TV ending, they were blatant about not being able to afford to animate the rest of the show. Worked in everyones favor anyway, since we got a high theatrical production of the events. But regardless, Instrumentality wasn't Evolution, it was DEVOlution (are we men? we are devo!!) specifically back into a static state of being pre-first impact. Both sides of the god (Adam & Lilith) plus man back into the egg which they came, all in a suedo life/death existence of virtual nothingness. No pain/no joy, no individuality, etc. Consider the bits of dialogue between all of the characters akin to the scene in the movie where little Rei's lower everyones AT fields & reduce them to LCL. The decision was made by Seele to implement to devolution, and the final choice was put into Shinji's hands. In both versions, he gives into destrado, everyone is goo'd together, and Shinji is given a final decision just before sealing everyone up togther. After experiencing the lull'd existence of nothingness, he rightfully decides that it's far better to exist with the potential for pain in the persuit of happyness, than it is to just float along being nothing with nothing.

The rest is pretty self explanitory, Gendo is denied his wish to be with Yui, Yui herself (regardless of how things went on Earth) still leaves to perpetuate life elsewhere, and Shinji finally finds some legitimate self comfidence, but an ending where he still has to strive for his own happyness.

[VFTF1]

Thanks Keith, for clearing things up.

What surprises me about your explanation - particularly about the dynamics behind Yui merging with Eva and Gendos wish to also do so and travel the universe seeding worlds like a God, is that the people who work for Gendo, and Gendo himself, seem to be so low-minded - far too low minded to concieve of them as being Gods who seed the universe with life...unless my own personal theological biases are gettingi n the way, and we are to accept that God creates life more out of a scientific curiosity than out of pure love?

In any event Yui demonstrates her love of Shinji while merged with Eva - although I guess you could say that she is also "lowly" in the sense that the protects her child to the detriment of others - after all - she has no misgivings about using the full power of EVA, unlike Shinji who does...

So are you saying that Shinji's is a rebellion against parents who are so fixated on saving the world from pain through science? Is Shinji to represent a rebellion against this possibility in favor of an imperfect world?

Pete

[Gubaba]

In any event Yui demonstrates her love of Shinji while merged with Eva - although I guess you could say that she is also "lowly" in the sense that the protects her child to the detriment of others - after all - she has no misgivings about using the full power of EVA, unlike Shinji who does...

I think you have be careful in equating Eva-01 with Yui...The Eva contain's Yui's soul, but not her mind (or heart). Even when Eva-01 breaks free of her bonds, I'm not sure she's always doing what Yui would've done.

Or maybe Yui would've eaten an angel...you never know.

But I EMPHATICALLY agree with Keith that Yui intended to "die" so that her soul would be transferred to the Eva. I'm not so sure about Asuka's mom, though.

And I kinda sorta envy Keith for his "Eva Guru" status...I tried to be an Eva Guru before, but by 2001 or so I just had to give up. Eventually, the fan theorizing gets too abstruse and personal to follow clearly, and there are always the people showing up saying, "damn ending MADE NO SENSE! THIS SHOW SUCKS!" and I lack the patience to deal with those people any more. You get the show or you don't.

[Keith]

Actualy, Shinji is just the opposite, he's representative of average disenchanted youth, stock (for the most part) adolescent problems, awkwardness, etc, all of which is exploited by Seele as a general human desire for destruction.

It should also be pointed out that a god in Eva isn't a general definition of "god." In Eva, a god is that which contains the polar oppposite seeds of life (perpetual energy S2 Organ/Angel core), and Seeds of Wisdom (sense of individuality & general human whatnots), combined into one. That's why neither Adam or Lilith alone could be considered to be gods, and Yui wasn't a god until taking in angels core & adapting it to herself. In Seeding worlds, likely its a one shot deal (same reason Lilith (Rei/Kaworu) couldn't/didn't leave earth even after Instrumentality was abandoned. Think of it in the literal sense of a tree, once it's rooted, it's rooted, but a germinated seed can grow elsewhere.

As for being low minded, to a large extent you're correct. Seele had no such desire, rather than contemplate that possability, they'd rather return to the womb to perpetually exist. Ritsuko only wanted Gendo's affections, which she knew she could never have. Fuyutski wanted to aid is prize student in her efforts, Gendo wanted to be with the woman he loved no matter what the cost, etc. Yui selflessly chose to give up her existence so that life could continue regardless of how things went on Earth, and in that sense, she was the onlhy high minded one in the series, save for maybe Misato & Kaji.

[Gubaba]

As for being low minded, to a large extent you're correct. Seele had no such desire, rather than contemplate that possability, they'd rather return to the womb to perpetually exist. Ritsuko only wanted Gendo's affections, which she knew she could never have. Fuyutski wanted to aid is prize student in her efforts, Gendo wanted to be with the woman he loved no matter what the cost, etc. Yui selflessly chose to give up her existence so that life could continue regardless of how things went on Earth, and in that sense, she was the onlhy high minded one in the series, save for maybe Misato & Kaji.

I largely agree, but I think you're selling Fuyutsuki short. I think he was a truly good and decent man overwhlemed by SEELE, Gehirn, and NERV...and any of them could have wiped him out of existence if he had opposed them too strongly.

[Keith]

I think you have be careful in equating Eva-01 with Yui...The Eva contain's Yui's soul, but not her mind (or heart). Even when Eva-01 breaks free of her bonds, I'm not sure she's always doing what Yui would've done.

Or maybe Yui would've eaten an angel...you never know.

But I EMPHATICALLY agree with Keith that Yui intended to "die" so that her soul would be transferred to the Eva. I'm not so sure about Asuka's mom, though.

And I kinda sorta envy Keith for his "Eva Guru" status...I tried to be an Eva Guru before, but by 2001 or so I just had to give up. Eventually, the fan theorizing gets too abstruse and personal to follow clearly, and there are always the people showing up saying, "damn ending MADE NO SENSE! THIS SHOW SUCKS!" and I lack the patience to deal with those people any more. You get the show or you don't.

The Eva's were clearly driven by animal instincts for the most part, and perhaps that had something to do with the limiters placed on them, or the lack of an infinite power source, but each and every Eva represented the soul that was inside for the most part. At no point id any of the Eva's do anything to/for their pilots that they wouldn't have done in life. But again, I think it had something to do with limiters being placed on them, hence the need for a pilot to control & synch with.

I also doubt Asuka's mother willingly decided to join with Unit-02, likely what was left of her was rushed there upon committing suicide. More interestingly though, and not spelled out in so many words, Unit-00's soul was somehow a split of Rei/Lilith. The side of her who remembered who & what she was, and the side that was rejoined once Unit-00 was invaded & destroyed.

Also, Unit-03 was Touji's sister, before being taken over by the angel at least.

[VFTF1]

Yeah - Misato and Kaji were also very heroic - and I'd probably add Misato's father; who had a Darth Vader moment of sorts

Hmm...anyways - interesting interesting - all food for thought. I still have to (re) watch the very last episode, and then onwards to End of Evangelon...

Eventually, the fan theorizing gets too abstruse and personal to follow clearly, and there are always the people showing up saying, "damn ending MADE NO SENSE! THIS SHOW SUCKS!" and I lack the patience to deal with those people any more. You get the show or you don't.

Come now Gubaba - it's not very hard to deal with. You just answer them:

"YEAH! IT SURE DID! SHINJI PUSSY STUPID DUMB BAD ENDING ANIMATION PUSSY CRAP ANIME!! ROBOTECH FTW!! DOOOD!"

and they go away.

Keith wrote:

At no point id any of the Eva's do anything to/for their pilots that they wouldn't have done in life

Lovely Freudian slip there

Pete

Edited December 21, 2008 by VFTF1

[Golden Arms]

I also believe that 3rd Rei is more of the rebel than say Shinji. They both did what was expected of them throughout the series for the most part. But it was her turning on Gendou, which he didn't forsee that allowed Shinji to acquire the control of humanities fate.

I like to show eva as an example to some of my coworkers that tv can be intelligent, thought provoking and entertaining all at the same time.

[Keith]

I also believe that 3rd Rei is more of the rebel than say Shinji. They both did what was expected of them throughout the series for the most part. But it was her turning on Gendou, which he didn't forsee that allowed Shinji to acquire the control of humanities fate.

I like to show eva as an example to some of my coworkers that tv can be intelligent, thought provoking and entertaining all at the same time.

3rd Rei wasn't so much a rebel, as she was the "true" Rei. or perhaps the return of the first. At that point, she remembers what she is, and can then see through Gendo's interference with the natural order of what's going on. Rei & Kaworu are counterparts of the same being, which is why she/they take the stance of overseeing, and letting their children choose the path that life should continue in. As opposed to letting Gendo or Seele railroad things into either chosen direction.

As for poser guru's, you can usually sniff them out by their excess of exestencialism, vapid theories that have nothing to do with what's actually going on in the show, and lack of adherence to series definitions that were spelled out in the RCB.

[Keith]

Lovely Freudian slip there

Pete

Wow, that was impressive even for me, and I wasn't even thinking of Xenogears

[Gubaba]

The Eva's were clearly driven by animal instincts for the most part, and perhaps that had something to do with the limiters placed on them, or the lack of an infinite power source, but each and every Eva represented the soul that was inside for the most part. At no point id any of the Eva's do anything to/for their pilots that they wouldn't have done in life. But again, I think it had something to do with limiters being placed on them, hence the need for a pilot to control & synch with.

I also doubt Asuka's mother willingly decided to join with Unit-02, likely what was left of her was rushed there upon committing suicide. More interestingly though, and not spelled out in so many words, Unit-00's soul was somehow a split of Rei/Lilith. The side of her who remembered who & what she was, and the side that was rejoined once Unit-00 was invaded & destroyed.

Also, Unit-03 was Touji's sister, before being taken over by the angel at least.

One of my Japanese friends (who showed me Death and Rebirth WELL before if ever came out on video...she'd taped it off of Wowow when they showed it on New Years Day '98) always maintained that Eva-00 had no soul at all...which was why it was harder to control. I know EvaOtaku came up with a syllogism to explain why it MUST have had a soul, but I'm not sure I buy it. Of course, I have no idea where my friend got her information, so...I dunno.

As for Eva-03 being Touji's sister...where did you hear that? I'm not sure I believe it considering 1) Eva-03 was made in America, and 2) Touji's sister is still alive.

[Keith]

One of my Japanese friends (who showed me Death and Rebirth WELL before if ever came out on video...she'd taped it off of Wowow when they showed it on New Years Day '98) always maintained that Eva-00 had no soul at all...which was why it was harder to control. I know EvaOtaku came up with a syllogism to explain why it MUST have had a soul, but I'm not sure I buy it. Of course, I have no idea where my friend got her information, so...I dunno.

Check out the scenes leading up to the destruction of 00, Rei wasn't speaking with the Angel, she was speaking with herself whom had been in the Eva. Besides which, it was clearly explained on several occasions that the Eva's just don't work without souls to synch with, not even for Kowaru.

As for Eva-03 being Touji's sister...where did you hear that? I'm not sure I believe it considering 1) Eva-03 was made in America, and 2) Touji's sister is still alive.

Made in America yes, but as Ritsuko so nicely put it, she had a pilot, and a core ready to prep for it. She also so nicely took care of the arrangements to move Touji's sister for him at Nerv's private hospitol. A bit too easy for her yes, but all the pieces fell together. Unfortunately for all involved, something was already in the Eva before it got there.

[Keith]

After reading through some of the posted evangelion essays, I found an evangelion fan edit on youtube.

Gendou is a pimp with his own theme music!

That's easily one of the best fan parodies I've ever seen. Brilliant!

[Gubaba]

Check out the scenes leading up to the destruction of 00, Rei wasn't speaking with the Angel, she was speaking with herself whom had been in the Eva. Besides which, it was clearly explained on several occasions that the Eva's just don't work without souls to synch with, not even for Kowaru.

Hmmm...I always through she was talking to Aramisael. And yeah, the "no soul = no AT Field" is relatively convincing.

I would say that maybe the next movie will have more to say on the matter, except I have a hunch that they won't rebuild the 00, and Rei will get the Eva-05 instead. I could esily be wrong about that, though.

Made in America yes, but as Ritsuko so nicely put it, she had a pilot, and a core ready to prep for it. She also so nicely took care of the arrangements to move Touji's sister for him at Nerv's private hospitol. A bit too easy for her yes, but all the pieces fell together. Unfortunately for all involved, something was already in the Eva before it got there.

But again...wouldn't his sister have to be dead for them to get her soul?

[Keith]

Hmmm...I always through she was talking to Aramisael. And yeah, the "no soul = no AT Field" is relatively convincing.

I would say that maybe the next movie will have more to say on the matter, except I have a hunch that they won't rebuild the 00, and Rei will get the Eva-05 instead. I could esily be wrong about that, though.

But again...wouldn't his sister have to be dead for them to get her soul?

Assumedly, it'd be easier with a live test subject. Yui was alive, Asuka's mother assumedly dead (or dying) but both live & dead people can be reduced to LCL.

[Gubaba]

Assumedly, it'd be easier with a live test subject. Yui was alive, Asuka's mother assumedly dead (or dying) but both live & dead people can be reduced to LCL.

Hmmm...never thought about it that way. I always assumed that harvesting the soul killed the person involved (as I thought it did with Yui).

Now I'm just imanging Touji's sister having all the same problems Bart Simpson had when he sold his soul to Milhouse.

[VFTF1]

I never made the connection between Toji's sister and the EVA before...

But then - where did the Angel come in? Was the angel born of Toji's rage? Toji must have realized that the EVA was his sister as soon as he synchronized with it.

On that note - what are the Angels? I understand the whole "Lilith came/Lilith did" bit - but...what exactly are they?

Pete

[lord_breetai]

Interesting I've never heard of the RCB is it actually named the Red Cross Book... or is it just a book with a red cross on it?

Before now, everything I've heard or discussed was just conjecture based on people analyzing the psychology, theology or philosophy of what the series is and also basing their theories about plot related points on just on the series.

Like as to the children... I always thought they all came from the same age group because they had to have been conceived around the time of second impact... however is that the case? Or is it just that they wanted young children for their plan and were willing to use any child as long as they fit the psychological profile and they could find a sympathetic soul to use?

My Japanese probably isn't up to letting me read this RCB yet, but I'd be very curious to see it.

[Keith]

I never made the connection between Toji's sister and the EVA before...

But then - where did the Angel come in? Was the angel born of Toji's rage? Toji must have realized that the EVA was his sister as soon as he synchronized with it.

On that note - what are the Angels? I understand the whole "Lilith came/Lilith did" bit - but...what exactly are they?

Pete

It was in that cloud they flew through on the way to Tokyo 3. Touji never had a chance to properly synch with the Eva, the Angel synched with it before him. As for what the angels are, they're an alternate evolutionary path of existence. Where the Lilim (which would also likely include most animal life, not just humans) are many & finite, Angels are few & infinite in their existence. If you consider (god) Lilith to be an infinite singular super being, in order to become many beings that lived shorter & multiple lives, something had to be shed. And that's what the Angels were. Both came from the same origins, and both were competing to be the dominant life forms.

[Keith]

Interesting I've never heard of the RCB is it actually named the Red Cross Book... or is it just a book with a red cross on it?

Before now, everything I've heard or discussed was just conjecture based on people analyzing the psychology, theology or philosophy of what the series is and also basing their theories about plot related points on just on the series.

Like as to the children... I always thought they all came from the same age group because they had to have been conceived around the time of second impact... however is that the case? Or is it just that they wanted young children for their plan and were willing to use any child as long as they fit the psychological profile and they could find a sympathetic soul to use?

My Japanese probably isn't up to letting me read this RCB yet, but I'd be very curious to see it.

Google is your friend. http://www.motorballer.org/redcross.html

The older HTML versions (that I liked better) don't seem to exist anymore, but this is the same info, just layed out differently. It's basically a multi-page pamphlet that was handed out in theaters during the film screenings. In it are official studio definitions of terms for the series, to clear up some of them mystery.

The whole deal with the Children is still a bit fuzzy, but likely it did have something to do with their psychological states, ease of control (relative), and ready suplly of supportive female influences. It may have also been an intentional decision by Gendo. Both Shinji & his Yui clone were relatively the same age, so it'd make sense to have the other candidates as similar to them as possible to avoid suspicion.

[VFTF1]

It was in that cloud they flew through on the way to Tokyo 3

Ah! Oh - that's right. I was wondering what that bolt of lighting was...duh

As for the Angels...so...does it look something like this:

God (Lilith): Infinite and Singular

Humans: Finite and (large) Multiple

Angels: Infinite and (small) Multiple

??

But the Angels do die - they are destroyed and Fuyutski even says that they, like all evolving beings, have death as the end of their evolution...so how can they be infinite if they die?

Pete

[Keith]

Ah! Oh - that's right. I was wondering what that bolt of lighting was...duh

As for the Angels...so...does it look something like this:

God (Lilith): Infinite and Singular

Humans: Finite and (large) Multiple

Angels: Infinite and (small) Multiple

??

But the Angels do die - they are destroyed and Fuyutski even says that they, like all evolving beings, have death as the end of their evolution...so how can they be infinite if they die?

Pete

Let's put it this way, they're immortal, but not invincable. Kinda like Highlander, but with big red balls

[VFTF1]

Let's put it this way, they're immortal, but not invincable. Kinda like Highlander, but with big red balls

Never seen Highlander - but do you basically mean that barring outside influence they cannot die? And the only thing that can kill them happens to be EVA?

Also - what exactly was the Lance of Longinus? And was the danger of removing it by Rei that Adam could potentially get up off his cross?

Sorry to bombard you with all of these questions, but getting the facts straight will help me with my thinking and interpreting. Always a pain in the butt to start waxing philosophical about something and it turns out that the real problem was that I got the facts wrong.

Pete

[Keith]

Never seen Highlander - but do you basically mean that barring outside influence they cannot die? And the only thing that can kill them happens to be EVA?

Also - what exactly was the Lance of Longinus? And was the danger of removing it by Rei that Adam could potentially get up off his cross?

Sorry to bombard you with all of these questions, but getting the facts straight will help me with my thinking and interpreting. Always a pain in the butt to start waxing philosophical about something and it turns out that the real problem was that I got the facts wrong.

Pete

No prob. In theory, anyone could kill an Angel, if they were able to comprehent their own AT field enought o control it like an Eva (all beings maintain their individuality through AT fields, its what keeps everyone seperate), wield a weapon strong enough to puncture the core, and somehow protect their body from the ensuing blast.. But for all intents, angels don't need to eat, don't age (though they do "mature" from their egg state), don't procreate, evolve, etc They basically are what they are.

The Lance of Longinus is another suedo mystery, and the one clue that the whole process of seeding life was intentionally done by some kind of alien race. There's only one true lance, though Seele was able to mass produce it to an extent, the many don't seem to compare to the original. But it in itself is the key to activating the process of seeding life (and as shown, reversing that process). You'll note that when Yui left Earth, she took the Lance with her. Assumedly, once she gets to wherever she's going, it's what will trigger the seperationg of Eva-01 into 2 eggs, and a new set of what will become Angels & Humans, for a new First Impact.

Could Seele have recreated the process with their 9 Lances? If not, then they got damn near close. How was it used on Lilith's body in Terminal Dogma? I "think" it was being used to keep the body from finishing a regeneration, so they (Nerv) could keep it producing LCL. Why they needed such a huge supply I'm not sure.

Next obvious question is about Adam, the purpose of Second Impact was to put him in a controllable state. Somehow they were able to regress his body to an embryo, and seperate his soul from it to prevent an Angel attack before things were ready. Though that in itself is a big question, would the Angels have attacked if not provoked by humans? Hopefully that will be explaind in the new films. But just as Gendo used Liliths soul to work on a dummy plug prototype system, Seele used Adam's to do the same. The only real question there, is what was his body cloned from. There's zero info on that, but I always thought he looked like Kaji, if not, then likely Keele Lorenz. Why did Gendo steal the Adam embryo? He had it implanted in his hand so he could have the angel side, and intended to use Rei/Lilith to combine him with the Lilith side so he could take over that entity. That plan obviously didn't work, since Rei took back Adam's body, and apparently the soul as well (Kaworu died in terminal dogma, and seems to have been drawn back in with Rei when she reformed god Lilith).

Had that not happened, then it would have been an odd mixture of Gendo & Rei's souls in that body. (probably).

[lord_breetai]

Google is your friend. http://www.motorballer.org/redcross.html

The older HTML versions (that I liked better) don't seem to exist anymore, but this is the same info, just layed out differently. It's basically a multi-page pamphlet that was handed out in theaters during the film screenings. In it are official studio definitions of terms for the series, to clear up some of them mystery.

The whole deal with the Children is still a bit fuzzy, but likely it did have something to do with their psychological states, ease of control (relative), and ready suplly of supportive female influences. It may have also been an intentional decision by Gendo. Both Shinji & his Yui clone were relatively the same age, so it'd make sense to have the other candidates as similar to them as possible to avoid suspicion.

Google is indeed a friend... however I didn't know if Red Cross Book was a proper name or a nickname you guys were using. Also it's the name or an organization, as well as an obscure reference work to an anime so I was not sure my google-fu would find it. Thank you.

Interesting... see I remember back in the day since all the children were 14 years old and second impact was 15 years ago... everyone in my group assumed that second impact did something to children conceived during that time.... and they came out special and able to pilot evas. It never occured to me that they'd have been chosen to be Shinji's peers, or to camaflauge his being chosen... interesting.

So about Instrumentaltity... did shinji only have two options? "Get in da EGG" or "stay out of DA EGG?" It seemed like he had the power to reshape reality as he saw fit... hence the vision of the alternate reality with him and his childhood friend Asuka and transfer student Rei... that became the bases for Girlfriend of Steel 2.

And are Shinji and Asuka the only two left at the end then, or was that just symbolic?

Maybe I should rewatch the series and try to figure it out again... I used to think I had it all figured out.

[VFTF1]

Well - nothing better than an anime series that needs to be rewatched to understand...

Kieth - your explanation is something I'm going to have to re-read a few times before asking anything more except about this fragment:

But for all intents, angels don't need to eat, don't age (though they do "mature" from their egg state), don't procreate, evolve, etc They basically are what they are

If the angels do not evolve, then how was NERV able to kill the "computer virus" angel that infected the Magi by speeding up its' evolution (towards death)?

Pete