Appleseed The Movie (Update)

[Noriko Takaya]

Sorry if I have not put this news in the previous Appleseed thread, but I felt this was warranted enough to update people. If you haven't seen the news yet, Geneon has announced that Appleseed will be released theatrically starting January 14, 2005 and has created an official website where you can see a trailer, play some of the film's music, get wallpapers, and other wonderful things as on the Japanese site. You also get to download a little fan kit filled with images to make your own webpage.

The biggest news is the release date here in the US. However, there is no theater schedule yet.

[bsu legato]

Cool, thanks for the update Noriko. I love how the front page is a reimagining of a classic Shorow image.

[UN Spacy]

Thanks for da update! It's good that I live in the Bay Area, movies like that are usually played in San Francisco and/or San Jose.

[Graham]

Bought the HK DVD earlier this week, haven't had time to watch it yet. Perhaps this weekend.....sigh!

Graham

[yellowlightman]

Thanks for da update! It's good that I live in the Bay Area, movies like that are usually played in San Francisco and/or San Jose.

Yeah, I'm wondering how wide a release Appleseed will have. It was nice that my podunk little town got GiTS2 in our local "arty" theatre, but i doubt Appleseed will see such a wide release.

[the white drew carey]

Yeah, I'm wondering how wide a release Appleseed will have. It was nice that my podunk little town got GiTS2 in our local "arty" theatre, but i doubt Appleseed will see such a wide release.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but for us, GitS2 played at our brand-new stadium seating theater, and that's pretty cool. Our theater will usually play the big releases, but usually has 2-3 indie-type films playing any given week.

I can only cross my fingers and hope...

[EXO]

While the GitS movies have a larger following, Appleseed seems like it has a more action oriented audience appeal, that's if you can get over the CG characters. Hopefully it could catch on, it would if the realease date was right. It's hard to believe National Treasure was #1 three weeks in a row, but really... what else was there to compete against it?

[yellowlightman]

Yeah, I'm wondering how wide a release Appleseed will have. It was nice that my podunk little town got GiTS2 in our local "arty" theatre, but i doubt Appleseed will see such a wide release.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but for us, GitS2 played at our brand-new stadium seating theater, and that's pretty cool. Our theater will usually play the big releases, but usually has 2-3 indie-type films playing any given week.

I can only cross my fingers and hope...

Hah, my "arty" theatre is a big stadium theatre as well, just that it tends to play some more random indie type films, like GiTS2. Weird since the other theatre in town, a crapy 20-year old one is the theatre that gets all the big blockbusters.

But I digress...

[cyde01]

at least you guys have dollar theaters. watching a movie in california is veeeery 'spensive.

regardless, i'm sure glad i waited for the theater release!

[wakobi]

Man, I knew that they were making two more sequels to this current Appleseed, but they are also making an Appleseed TV series too??

Appleseed TV Series In The Works

All good stuff!

[the white drew carey]

Yeah, I'm wondering how wide a release Appleseed will have. It was nice that my podunk little town got GiTS2 in our local "arty" theatre, but i doubt Appleseed will see such a wide release.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but for us, GitS2 played at our brand-new stadium seating theater, and that's pretty cool. Our theater will usually play the big releases, but usually has 2-3 indie-type films playing any given week.

I can only cross my fingers and hope...

Hah, my "arty" theatre is a big stadium theatre as well, just that it tends to play some more random indie type films, like GiTS2. Weird since the other theatre in town, a crapy 20-year old one is the theatre that gets all the big blockbusters.

But I digress...

Goodness, your situation echoes mine almost perfectly, except we have 2 crappy 20-year old theaters in this town, both run by the same management (Marcus).

[EXO]

Man, I knew that they were making two more sequels to this current Appleseed, but they are also making an Appleseed TV series too?? 

Appleseed TV Series In The Works

All good stuff! 

You didn't mention the possible live action movie?

[bsu legato]

You didn't mention the possible live action movie?

Dude! Your 1/1 Seburo just got that much closer to reality!

[EXO]

You didn't mention the possible live action movie?

Dude! Your 1/1 Seburo just got that much closer to reality!

That's a 1:1 guges seburo....

[F-ZeroOne]

Noriko, thanks for the link - nice wallpaper ("Humankind had its chance"...!)

An Appleseed TV series could potentially be awesome (if they don't grab Yoko Kanno to do the music I will do something nasty to the producers...! ) and I've always felt it would make a good live action movie, though I always had in mind something with a big Hollywood budget, but done sensibly - an intelligent SF film with kick-butt action scenes - just like, er, the manga...

[EXO]

Noriko, thanks for the link - nice wallpaper ("Humankind had its chance"...!)

An Appleseed TV series could potentially be awesome (if they don't grab Yoko Kanno to do the music I will do something nasty to the producers...! ) and I've always felt it would make a good live action movie, though I always had in mind something with a big Hollywood budget, but done sensibly - an intelligent SF film with kick-butt action scenes - just like, er, the manga...

As scary as it sounds, it would need the big Hollywood budget to get the look right. There are stuff coming out of Japan that look great but Appleseed needs a grander treatment. They just need the right director...

[peter]

The DVD was selling for about 3500 yen everywhere I looked the other day. It's way cheaper than Mac Zero DVDs....wonder why.

[Radd]

I had the misfortune of seeing Appleseed tonight. Sad to say, folks, but do not get your hopes up. I'll repost my rant from another forum for your benefit:

The new Appleseed movie was really, really bad. The CG was not that great, the cel shading just made everything look like plastic. The actual animation wasn't too terrible. It ranged from pretty decent to mediocre. All in all, the visuals paled next to the other recent Shirow based movie, GitS2:Innocence.

Storywise, Appleseed was just wretched. I mean, Metal Gear Solid 2 wretched. Lots of posing, and characters all trying to get the last word in with no actual substance to what they were saying. The overal premise was beyond rediculous, and made no sense whatsoever in the end. Characters would literally say something, then in the same breath completely contradict themselves.

The story also suffered from the very same problem that causes many people to hate Final Fantasy 8. You got it, a complete 'What the..?' moment, where it turns out that the main character knew something all along, but conveniently forgot it, along with her relationship to several other characters.

Add to this absolutely zero character developement, a terrible soundtrack (cheesy-bad techno-ish music for the action scenes, and what sounds like bad American pop music scattered about), and I'll say it again, the CG just was not that great.

I would not reccomend paying money to see this crap. I was really dissapointed because while I was not expecting much from the CG (and it wasn't bad, per-se, it just was not great either. I probably do harp on it too much when there's so many more significant reasons not to like the movie.), I was hoping the story would put the GitS movies to shame since Shirow was more active in it's developement (or so I'd heard).

As it is, at least Innocence was a pleasant surprise. I'm glad that's the one I actually saw in theatres. If I had spent the money and effort to see this trash in theatres, I'd be even more upset.

[chrono]

Really sounds like you expecting one hellva lot more then you got!!!

But then again Appleseed really has never had much of a 'real' storyline anyways. It kinda reads like an early version of what Shirow wanted to write in GITS. Hell, it wasn't until he FINALLY broke his artistic ceiling in the mid/late 90's that he actually was worth a damn as a 'Manka'. Also doesn't help that 90% of his stuff is taken from other authors.

[Radd]

I had a volume of the Appleseed manga, and it was certainly better than this movie. Same with just about anything I've read of Shirow's, or movie adaptations. I did not like the first GitS movie, but it was certainly far better than this Appleseed movie. I don't remember disliking even Black Magic M-66 this much.

[Panzer]

well i watched trailers and was...

... speachless ...

makes me fall in love with sci fi/anime all over again.

[Feyd-Rautha]

shhhhht...

[bsu legato]

Oh come now...Innocence was overrated, pretentious drivel. Animation-wise, it may have something over Appleseed (depending on your taste) but in terms of pure watchability it ranks down there with industrial instructional films from the 1960's. And while it may not have had the greatest, most original plot in cinematic history, at least it had one. Innocence was 2 hours of literary quotation and philosophical wankery. I'm not sure why you didn't understand the ending. It does differ from the manga, but it's not exactly EVA. And "plastic"....the new derogatory term for anything CG, I take it. If I was going to complain about the characters, the cel shading would be way down the list.

The soundtrack was grating, however. It did absolutely nothing for the action scenes, and possibly even hurt them.

[peter]

I watched the original animated Appleseed, then watched this new one right after and I have to say....holy $hit it was awesome. Some people expected perfection, I expected to be entertained, and it did the job. There were some scene that made me think "this is why I'm a fan of anime".

Don't get your hopes up, it's not perfect. Go into it wth an open mind and it will blow you away.

[Radd]

Oh come now...Innocence was overrated, pretentious drivel. Animation-wise, it may have something over Appleseed (depending on your taste) but in terms of pure watchability it ranks down there with industrial instructional films from the 1960's. And while it may not have had the greatest, most original plot in cinematic history, at least it had one. Innocence was 2 hours of literary quotation and philosophical wankery. I'm not sure why you didn't understand the ending. It does differ from the manga, but it's not exactly EVA. And "plastic"....the new derogatory term for anything CG, I take it. If I was going to complain about the characters, the cel shading would be way down the list.

The soundtrack was grating, however. It did absolutely nothing for the action scenes, and possibly even hurt them.

I'm not disagreeing about Innocence being pretentious, however it did have a plot. The plot was very clear, and while it was not entirely deep, and it was hidden behind artsy visuals and literary quotation, it made sense and was brought to a satisfactory conclusion. It was eyecandy that the story did not detract from.

You presume that I did not understand the end to Appleseed, and you presume incorrectly. I did understand, completely. It was not difficult to follow, wich made the fact that it was convoluted and nonsensical that much harder to swallow. The Evangelion tv series was difficult to follow (at least the ending), but when you unravelled it all it made sense.

You also presume that I raise my nose at any and all CG and say, "It looks like plastic!" You, again, presume wrong. CG does not need to look like plastic, and on rare occaissions you see examples of well done CG that was not poorly done. Usually the "plastic" look comes from a lack of effort on the part of the texture crew. The CG models look unnaturally clean and flawless. Combined with stiff, puppet-like animation, the effect is similar to plastic puppets dangling from strings. Even without bad animation, the poor texturing job makes everything look...well..."fake".

The CG in Appleseed suffered from this, and another problem. The backgrounds and vehicles suffered from the former problem, the characters quite another with the film's attempt at cel shading on CG models. First, the shading was never quite right. There was plenty of shadow "clipping" where a shadow would be there, then completely dissapear when the character made even a slight movement. You could tell there was little to no control over the shadows, and worse yet while the shadows could not be used to add to the visuals, they often detracted

Another problem was faces, wich never moved correctly throughout the film. A part of the problem was that the eyes seemed to be textured onto the models rather than modelled themselves. It simply did not look right when the faces would not move at all, just the character's eyes.

The hair, the hair did not seem to fit at all. To be sure, I cannot myself offer any suggestions on how to CG out traditional cartoon style hair and have it look right, but it's plain to see that they did not succeed. The hair looked stiff and unnatural, like a plastic helmet that would sway and move only when instructed, even given the style they were attempting to emulate.

I will admit, my standards are high when it comes to CG. However, I do have standards and they are my standards. The issues I bring up are real, and most of them could have been addressed.

My standards for storytelling are significantly lower, as I stated with Innocence, the story was not great, but it was not bad enough to detract, either. I enjoy simply action movies no and again, my main expectation being that the story, no matter how simple or contrived, will not suck enough to stand out from the pretty explosions and pretty visuals I am there to see. Appleseed did not meet this requirement.

[bsu legato]

But you see..I don't think the animators were trying to atempt photorealism in Appleseed, though. While they were definitely puttling a lot of detail into it, they still wanted to maintain some resemblence to anime. Hence the cartoony shadowing, so-so textures and spikey, billowy toon-hair. I actually liked the hair, in fact.

However, when you mention the faces that's where we definitely agree. I wasn't too fond of the "lip flap", or rather the lack of it at some points. Judging from the DVD extras that I downloaded last night they seem to have tried at least some facial mo-cap, but I'm not entirely convinced that is the best route for this style. Let's face it; anime characters have some funky, impossible facial anatomy and I think that might have been better represented by an animator handling the lip synch.

[Radd]

Who said anything about photo-realism?

[bsu legato]

Who said anything about photo-realism?

Holy Christ..you didn't use the phrase "photrealistic" but you were certainly critical of the textures. Which is why I pointed out that they were going for an "anime" look, as opposed to a Final Fantasy approach. Had Appleseed been cel animated, do you thing the textures would have been any more detailed??

[NoSuchFile]

Watched it, loved it, I recommend it, then again, i'm the kind of people that likes CG

[peter]

A few things that I wish they had, like a bit more comedy like in the manga, and more T & A.

[Radd]

Who said anything about photo-realism?

Holy Christ..you didn't use the phrase "photrealistic" but you were certainly critical of the textures. Which is why I pointed out that they were going for an "anime" look, as opposed to a Final Fantasy approach. Had Appleseed been cel animated, do you thing the textures would have been any more detailed??

Whoa there, fella, anyone here with animation experience, especially CG experience, can tell you that texturemapping is not limited to photorealism. However, my last post may have been poorly worded in that regard.

The CG models look unnaturally clean and flawless. Combined with stiff, puppet-like animation, the effect is similar to plastic puppets dangling from strings. Even without bad animation, the poor texturing job makes everything look...well..."fake".

The above fragment of my previous post was not in regard specifically to Appleseed, but was expanding on the sentence that came before it, that "the "plastic" look comes from a lack of effort on the part of the texture crew."

The problem with Appleseed's characters looking like plastic comes from the shadows rendered in the cel shader. They do not look like the shadows you would find in a 2D cel. They fall across the model in all sorts of awkward ways, and just never look quite right. On top of that, the lighting with the characters and the backgrounds never really meshed, in that the characters seemed to be glowing whenever they were in a dimly lit setting. The hair on the characters seemed to be textured in a way that did not fit with the cel shading, and stood out looking like a plastic toupe stuck onto the character.

The backgrounds, however, had a sterile, overly clean look to them that not even any utopia would ever achieve in an outdoors environment. If the show had been cel animated, then yes the backgrounds would have been more detailed in that regard. Look in just about any decent animated feature in your collection and you'll see that a lot of the backgrounds are painted, or have a painterly look to them. Digitally flat and clean surfaces are nowhere to be found.

Those that do not have a painterly look to them often are coloured in a very similar fashion to the characters, aand so the two elements mesh together and the effect is that the backgrounds still do not look out of place.

The effect of the backgrounds in Appleseed was that of the production crew trying to make the backgrounds look realistic, and falling short for the reasons I've already mentioned.

However, in some newer 2D animation that makes use of digital colouring techniques I do complain about the lack of flaws in the colours and lineart, as it lacks character and becomes dull to the eye. Even then, though, the backgrounds often still retain that painterly look for the most part.

I have the same complaint on a lot of so-called 'photorealistic' CG movies, and movies with CG elements, that have this easily solved problem. It is a sign of laziness. A lack of effort put towards dirtying up and adding imperfections to unnaturally perfect CG models.

[Graham]

Watched the new Appleseed over the weekend. Bleh.......didnt like it. It did nothing for me.

Give me the original 80s anime anyday.

Traditional cell anime = good .

CG anime = bad .

Graham

[wolfx]

Watched the new Appleseed over the weekend. Bleh.......didnt like it. It did nothing for me.

Give me the original 80s anime anyday.

Traditional cell anime = good .

CG anime = bad .

Graham

Thought the original OVA was crap?

[NoSuchFile]

Thought the original OVA was crap?

It is, but everyone that doesn't like CG graphic replacing standart animation will always say that

[Graham]

Well, I liked it, but then I'm a big fan of 80s anime .

I'm pretty anti-CG anime. While I don't mind cell anime having some minor CG effects or enhancements, I'm not into totally CG amime.

Traditional Japanese cell animation has a very distinctive and attractive style and IMO much of this is lost in the transition to CG. The anime in effect changes to look just like a typical Hollywood blockbuster SFX movie.

About the only thing I don't mind seeling in CG is Valks, as IMO CG Valk dogfights can look amazing if done correctly, e.g. Macross Zero.

Graham