Anti-UN forces

[Godzilla]

Ok, I havent watch M0 yet but I am trying to figure out who the Anti-UN forces are? Are they countries that didnt get sucked ini by the UN? If so what about those Unification Wars in the Middle East mention in the 1st episode of Macross TV series? If they are countries, how in the hell do they have resources to make the SV-51/52? I highly doubt these rougue countries will survive because their econmy would suffer if the UN countries did not trade with them. If the anti-UN is just rogue ppl, where did they get resources to build a huge sub and however many SV-51/52s?

[mikeszekely]

Ok, I havent watch M0 yet but I am trying to figure out who the Anti-UN forces are? Are they countries that didnt get sucked ini by the UN? If so what about those Unification Wars in the Middle East mention in the 1st episode of Macross TV series? If they are countries, how in the hell do they have resources to make the SV-51/52? I highly doubt these rougue countries will survive because their econmy would suffer if the UN countries did not trade with them. If the anti-UN is just rogue ppl, where did they get resources to build a huge sub and however many SV-51/52s?

Well, it seems that the war didn't start immediately after the ASS-1 crashed. But yeah, basically the UN decided that the world needed to pull together (especially if there was a chance they were going to be fighting giants!). But it seems a few countries didn't like where the UN was going with that, and didn't want to be "unified." And likely, the UN wasn't letting them have a choice, hence the big war. By Macross Zero, the war is mostly over.

On a side note, I think that some of the engineers who were working on the VF-X program split when war broke out. Likely, they were the engineers who worked out the VF-1's transformation system (hence Nora's comment about the UN stealing it, then DD's comment about how the UN didn't steal it from their "united" perspective). They probably took what they'd learned working with Stonewell Bellcom to the conglomerate formed by Sukhoi/Israel Aircraft Industries/Dornier to design the SV-51.

Oh, and one more thing... the Anti-UN isn't just a SDF Macross and Macross Zero thing. They're still around and opperating in 2050, although by that time, they're not really an organized army but a blanket label given to smaller groups that oppose the UN government. Black Rainbow would be considered Anti-UN.

[Beltane70]

I'm sure there were probably enough countries that became part of the Anti-UN that had enough resources to be able to produce a decent amount of equipment to deal with the UN. Just look at the Macross Compendium. The Anti-UN had enough resources to produce their own reaction weapons. After all, the Anti-UN was able to destroy one of the underconstruction Grand Cannons.

[RichterX]

The Anti-UN had enough resources to produce their own reaction weapons. After all, the Anti-UN was able to destroy one of the underconstruction Grand Cannons.

Well that is the tale the UN goverment gives, remember that in SDF Macross an anti UN group was blamed for the attack and "destruction" of the Macross and South Ataria Island.

[Tekkaman Blade]

You can compare the UN against the Anti-UN to the Spanish Civil War in Spain.

When the Independance of their parties were threatened by unification into one Nationalist country, all the parties joined together against the Nationalist forces.

Although they put up a good fight, just like the Anti-UN, they eventually lost and Spain was unified under the military coup's faction.

I'm comparing these because the Anti-UN could have been like the Republic. Several different factions join together to protect their independance. The Anti-UN would comprise of several countries wanting independance and would share a mass ammount of good resources, technology and other such things.

[RichterX]

You can compare the UN against the Anti-UN to the Spanish Civil War in Spain.

When the Independance of their parties were threatened by unification into one Nationalist country, all the parties joined together against the Nationalist forces.

Although they put up a good fight, just like the Anti-UN, they eventually lost and Spain was unified under the military coup's faction.

I'm comparing these because the Anti-UN could have been like the Republic. Several different factions join together to protect their independance. The Anti-UN would comprise of several countries wanting independance and would share a mass ammount of good resources, technology and other such things.

Yeah indeed history is feel of those things, there is no actual real good side on those cases, like the American civil war, both sides fought for what they believed was right.

It would be nice to see an anime in which a UN fleet has to engage in combat with a rebel or rogue fleet.

[1st Border Red Devil]

It would be nice to see an anime in which a UN fleet has to engage in combat with a rebel or rogue fleet.

The technology gap would be too great. The UN Spacy is gonna mop the floor with any Anti-UN group that tries to face it in a pitched battle. The Anti-UN forces couldn't be that organized, or there would be a massive civil war. Guerrilla forces like those seen at the begining of Macross Plus ambushing an UN Spacy fighter squadron that was on patrol would be more the norm.

Edited November 5, 2004 by 1st Border Red Devil

[fernarias]

Gee, based on what's going on now, you could say that it's France, Germany, Russia and China who are the Anti-UN forces. Or you could say that it's the US, Great Britain, Italy and Austrialia who are the Anti-UN countries. Depends on your political point of view.

But since Macross was written in the 1980s, the obvious candidates for the Anti-UN forces would have to be the Communist block countries.

f.

Edited November 5, 2004 by fernarias

[BinaryFalcon]

But since Macross was written in the 1980s, the obvious candidates for the Anti-UN forces would have to be the Communist block countries.

The hardware we're shown also is a pretty good indicator. Most of the identifiable equipment on the UN side is US/NATO gear, and on the Anti-UN side it's Soviet hardware.

Since it seems unlikely a country would go to war and then completely swap out its standing military equipment for stuff that was initially produced by "the other side", it seems reasonable to assume that the Anti-UN forces are largely composed of former communist block countries.

[ewilen]

http://macross.anime.net/feedback/index.html

The creators have noted that Russia (or the former Soviet Union) is part of the new U.N. government -- although Russia had separatist elements and rebellions like other countries.

The anti-UN probably consists of a loose alliance of real countries, separatist regions, and rebel groups throughout the world, joined primarily by their opposition to a single world government.

[Prime]

Or you could say that it's the US, Great Britain, Italy and Austrialia who are the Anti-UN countries.

Well, the US did act unilaterally against the UNs wishes. That sounds pretty Anti-UN to me.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Well, the US did act unilaterally against the UNs wishes. That sounds pretty Anti-UN to me.

Untrue. The UN failed to enforce its own decree.

[Godzilla]

Well, the US did act unilaterally against the UNs wishes.  That sounds pretty Anti-UN to me.

Untrue. The UN failed to enforce its own decree.

This is not a political debate here and we are detracting from the the topic at hand. Take it elsewhere. All I ask was info on Anti-UN forces in the Macross series, not today's issues and how it relate's to Macross. Sheesh.

Ok, we know that Anti-UN force have Soviet/Communist bloc weapons. You have to remember, Communist Bloc weapons are far cheaper to obtain either by crook or by hook. Still my question remains on how these Forces survived economically as well as socially? Surely there were Anti-UN in the UN Spacy waiting to strike.

So there was two grand cannons? I musta missed that unless you have been reading the Robotech Love and War comics that came out recently.

[Prime]

Well, the US did act unilaterally against the UNs wishes.  That sounds pretty Anti-UN to me.

Untrue. The UN failed to enforce its own decree.

I'm not trying to make a political statement here.

For whatever reason, the US acted without the UN. Making them, in jest, the potential Anti-UN.

[Beltane70]

Well that is the tale the UN goverment gives, remember that in SDF Macross an anti UN group was blamed for the attack and "destruction" of the Macross and South Ataria Island.

I tend to consider the timeline given on the Macross Compendium to be an objective timeline and not from a UN or Anti-UN point of view. Therefore, all the entries in that timelime are most likely the events as they occurred.

[ewilen]

Godzilla, from the Chronology, November 2005,

In an Anti-U.N. Army retaliatory attack on the U.N. Forces, the under-construction Grand Cannon II is destroyed in Australia.

Several Grand Cannons were started before SW1.

Grand Cannon I: Alaska

Grand Cannon II: Australian Autonomous Region

Grand Cannon III: Victorian Autonomous Region (in Africa)

Grand Cannon IV: Lunar North Polar Region

Grand Cannon V: Brazilian Autonomous Region

(All info from the Chronology. Don't ask me if there really was a Grand Cannon being built on the Moon. I guess there was.)

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Keep in mind too that the antiun could use subversive tactics to get thier tech. After all, it was thought by Roy that Ivanov was dead in mac zero right?

There could even be secret sympathisers within the UN itself whose history just haven't been found out yet. Unless there was some kind of mcarthy era-style paranoia over people's loyaylty to the UN, people may not know the true intentions of the people they work with. Hasford could have pretended all along to be friends with the UN and then decide at the last minute, nah, I think I'll join up with the opposition. And this is why all the surpise. They never 'disapeared', or were 'killed' which might have been the official story, they in fact escaped but it would have been embarassing for the government to admit in public.

So unless they are assasinated and thier valuable knowledge kept under control, there is always the chance of the antiun managing to gain power secretly. Look at the octos. A variable submarine! It's arrogant to think technology can't be stolen and that just because you have the best weapons in the world they can't be taken and used against you or the information about how to build them can't be handed out.

[ewilen]

The anti-UN undoubtedly had spies and fifth-columnists working for them inside the UN. However, there is simply no way that the anti-UN could have built and maintained large-scale armaments like the the Octos, the SV-51, Mig-29's, and the Auerstadt without having at least one industrialized nation as part of their alliance.

Even if you ignore M0, prior to M0 (basically as part of SDF Macross continuity), it's known that the anti-UN had at least one nuclear attack submarine and a whole class of advanced fighters (the Karyobin).

[RichterX]

could it be that the autonomous regions were independant from the UN or the Anti UN?

[azrael]

The anti-UN undoubtedly had spies and fifth-columnists working for them inside the UN. However, there is simply no way that the anti-UN could have built and maintained large-scale armaments like the the Octos, the SV-51, Mig-29's, and the Auerstadt without having at least one industrialized nation as part of their alliance.

Even if you ignore M0, prior to M0 (basically as part of SDF Macross continuity), it's known that the anti-UN had at least one nuclear attack submarine and a whole class of advanced fighters (the Karyobin).

Bingo.

As for the question on who was the Anti-UN. Lots of people. And it probably wasn't a single entity. Look at the SV-51 (Sukhoi/Israel Aircraft Industries/Dornier SV-51). Sukhoi (Russian), Israel Aircraft Industries (Israel), Dornier (Germany). You have elements of many major nations in the UN (namely Soviet Russia, and West Germany). And with outbreaks all over the world (Even in the Americas, guerilla warfare did break out), you have Anti-UN elements within the UN. So it becomes hard to pinpoint who was on which side.

[mikeszekely]

Post-Space War One Anti-UN seems to have corporate backing (Critical Path). It doesn't seem unlikely that they'd have corporate sponsorship before SW1, either. Especially amongst defense contractors... can't make a living selling weapons if people quit fighting.

[Zero Enna]

I ever thinked the Anti-UN like gundam's AEUG in organization and using the same ways to get vessels and combat units (Fighters, VF's and Powered Armors).

Edited November 6, 2004 by Zero Enna

[chrono]

I believe the Anti-UN forces nation make-up was from separatetist states. I think many countries had portions of their countries break off. Later many were retaken for various reasons, while others were able to expand quite abit. Large pieces of the old USSR, China, South America, IndoPacific states and both Canada & the U.S. would've been fractured. Most if not ALL of the European countries would've willingly gone under the UN's power, except for maybe parts of Germany.

AT THAT TIME. (the early mid 80's folks though some are currently vaild)

Later-on the Anti-UN forces would've naturely been largely dispersed by the Zen's barrage. Breaking the will of those peoples with the exception of a few who would later expand into space and generally fight UN forces there.

Ever notice how much Macross looks like Star Trek? With the UN Spacey looking like Star Treks StarFleet? Except that the UN Spacey has an INCREDIBLY OVERBOARD military machine!!! Both are desturbing in the fact that there is a HUGH lacking of civilian ships.

[azrael]

Ever notice how much Macross looks like Star Trek? With the UN Spacey looking like Star Treks StarFleet? Except that the UN Spacey has an INCREDIBLY OVERBOARD military machine!!! Both are desturbing in the fact that there is a HUGH lacking of civilian ships.

There actually is something about that.

See the endnotes here: http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...nese/index.html

Also, the folks at Studio Nue were sci-fi fans at their youth (although, they still might be.....) so it's not surprising if they borrowed a few ideas from here and there.