HWR-00-Mk. I Monster Destroid Intial Prototype

[KingNor]

maybe the monster can use the claws to prevent recoil in settings outside the the deck of a military carrier where cables may not be as practical? anybody thought of that?

btw it's just entertainment. most of the coolest things in anime are the least practical and makes the least sense in real life. but that's why we watch them- to see how far and wild imagination can go. if i want some real plausible sci-fi i'd watch TLC or even read michael crichton, not anime.

problem with the whole the big clown hands serve a functional purpose is that using the big clown hands means you can't use the arm guns... not very practical or utilitarian.... would make more sense to give the thing a whole other set of arms and grappling mechanisms if the designers were so concerned with having that thing have to hold on to something to fire.

but then, let's also think about that idea as well... just because this thing has hands doesn't mean it can just hang on anywhere... it has to hang onto areas that are reinforced to accept the kinetic energy of having this thing pulling on it... which means, some cables would do the job just as well. But then what if the carrier was designed so that the monster could hold on to anything? same thing, some cables would work just as well. And, cables would allow the monster to fire its arm cannons at the same time.

Second point about it just being a cartoon.. well sure... but even in a cartoon, to be believable, everything uses a certain logic. In the macross universe, the powers that be went to great lenghts to establish that design elements in macross exist for a reason and not just at the designer's pleasure. So valk's don't dress up like giant fish to fight in the ocean, destroids don't turn into giant motorcycle propeled dogs, etc.

So when a big piece of military artillery suddenly has big fugly clown hands to grab hold of stuff.. it just smacks of silly.

I personally don't think it makes sense, from a tactical standpoint... it's fugly, as it disrupts the balance of the design and is suddenly intricate and complicated on a design that is straightforward and direct.

yes. exactly yes. everyone should read this post and remember it.

[Air Elijah]

Linear Cannon? LoL! What cannon is NOT linear? I've never seen one with a curved barrel.

[Zentrandude]

Linear Cannon? LoL! What cannon is NOT linear? I've never seen one with a curved barrel.

a particle accellerator barrel is round

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

problem with the whole the big clown hands serve a functional purpose is that using the big clown hands means you can't use the arm guns... not very practical or utilitarian.... would make more sense to give the thing a whole other set of arms and grappling mechanisms if the designers were so concerned with having that thing have to hold on to something to fire.

Well it IS a prototype. They must have seen the error of needing the claw once enough funding, parts, etc were available. Just as they found the brainwave stuff on the early yf21 to be too dangerous or not practical, since only select pilots could handle it, so too the claw is taken off of the monster in favour of something more straightforward and there we have the mk II. There you go!

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...wr00/index.html

The original Mk I was not conceived to be equipped with a missile launcher on either side of the main body, but its firepower was increased during development, and it was thus renamed Mk II.

If they had given even more arms to the monster it might affect how it balanced (this thing has to walk on land you know) and people were in a race to get them ready. Just one possible explanation. Or maybe they simply changed minds and altered decisions at the 11th hour. My guess is as designs evolve they only become practical through the testing and experiences of problems that are reported. We probably only apreciate the practicality after seeing mk II first, becuase we are used to it. But as an example, if you look at computer architecture in the past and how it evolved over time before becoming standardised, it was a mess becasue of small iterative steps and evolutions. These were ideas that didn't foresee problems for the future.

So if you want to translate that into mecha, you could say things started out more complex and gradually got simpler as people found out the errors of doing things the way they did them at the time.

Not much a fan of the claw myself since it looks unnecessary and would get in the way if it tried to move around but they had to put something different there. I suppose if the monster ever fell off a cliff it could do the old trick of scraping the side of the wall to grab on for dear life. Maybe these monsters were designed for climbing mountains and hilly terrain! It could hide behind them but increase the range it could shoot at when on an elevated position jk

Edited October 27, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[KingNor]

i think another problem people have with the seemingly "advanced" stuff on the prototypes is how out of sync it is with the way real prototypes are made.

i mean, when i see early f-14 prototypes, they didn't have tons of equptment for them, they're swing wings barely worked, and they didn't have vastly diffrent crap on them like tail gunners, or bunches of extra fins or swing wings that went all the way to be like forward swept wings. they basicly looked like crappy f-14s.

so why the bizzare stuff on the proto valks and monsters?

it would make sence if the original monster had arms something like the "gladiator/spartin" thing, that was later scrapped when they saw how limited the monster was in hand to hand. or what if instead of hands at all, it had tripod like extra legs something like what earth movers have and it simply planted them. then the designers realized the monster was stable enough on its own and added more guns.

the claws show offer no reason for the change, it apparently has these big arms that seem to work good, why'd they take them off for the final version?

and the vf-0... how is it it can carry an entire drone on its back when the "super valk" needed huge boosters to help it carry the little bit of extra armor it had. stuff like that just makes the serise stand way out of chronology.

monsters were probably devouring too many of the expencive valkyries so they took the arms off to make the valks harder to catch maybe?

[KingNor]

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...wr00/index.html

The original Mk I was not conceived to be equipped with a missile launcher on either side of the main body, but its firepower was increased during development, and it was thus renamed Mk II.

i saw that quote too, but i don't like it. the claw on either side of the monster folds up into a missle launcher. Nanashi? is this quote from the source? i done understand what this quote is getting at.

the monster mk1 has missle launchers on each side of the body, but they unfold into claws. (unless i'm mistaken and those arn't missle launchers built into the arms......?

[Noyhauser]

the claws show offer no reason for the change, it apparently has these big arms that seem to work good, why'd they take them off for the final version?

not having seen episode five, I can only surmise that maybe they developed a system on later monsters where it could more securely anchor itself to the ground... by whatever method, magnetics, grav field, ect.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

not having seen episode five, I can only surmise that maybe they developed a system on later monsters where it could more securely anchor itself to the ground... by whatever method, magnetics, grav field, ect.

I haven't seen it either. I'm just going to assume it was costs. (and as I mentioned about complicated technology on old things: is a record player more cumbersome than a cd player? an old 5" diskette more complicated and impractical than a 3.5" diskette? technology evolves)

So..this was a prototype, they were limited in implementing the more advanced stuff (like the magentics) and made the compromise, sacrificing firepower for an early release to impress people that this was what the monster could do and to justfiy the expense of it to themselves and the client. More funding was then given, and eventually they went ahead with more expensive monsters with secure balance and more firepower. Sound reasonable enough. But I like my rock climbing idea.

If you think about it, why don't the lower-ranked zentreadi soldiers all use glaug instead of regults? Having those two arms by your side for more firepower would seem more practical in combat than having none, right?

Edited October 27, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Panon]

i think another problem people have with the seemingly "advanced" stuff on the prototypes is how out of sync it is with the way real prototypes are made.

i mean, when i see early f-14 prototypes, they didn't have tons of equptment for them, they're swing wings barely worked, and they didn't have vastly diffrent crap on them like tail gunners, or bunches of extra fins or swing wings that went all the way to be like forward swept wings. they basicly looked like crappy f-14s.

No the problem is that people for some unknown reason expect an animated feature made in 2002-2004 to be restricted by the limitations of animation from 1982.

Things just look more details and move better because the difference in animation quality is large.

The VF-0 does look like a "crappy" VF-1. It's bulkier, less aerodynamic and has bits and pieces all over it. The VF-1 is smaller and more streamlined.

Likewise the Monster MkI is a crappier Mk2. It has lesser armament, a bulkier stability system and greater recoil problems.

and the vf-0... how is it it can carry an entire drone on its back when the "super valk" needed huge boosters to help it carry the little bit of extra armor it had. stuff like that just makes the serise stand way out of chronology.

Huh? The Super Valk was made for zero gravity combat in outer space. It didn't 'need' the boosters because of weight.

it would make sence if the original monster had arms something like the "gladiator/spartin" thing, that was later scrapped when they saw how limited the monster was in hand to hand. or what if instead of hands at all, it had tripod like extra legs something like what earth movers have and it simply planted them.

The 'claws' are NOT for hand to hand combat! They're for stability - the 'claws' as well as being able to lock in on the carrier would work off the carrier (unlike the cables suggestions) as the Monster could take a position and spider in (that's what the appearance of it looks like) fire, then disengage and be mobile again.

Also the Monster does have an extra 'tripod' leg - it extends from the rear and absorbs the recoil there, to balance the handling of recoil between the front and rear.

the monster mk1 has missle launchers on each side of the body, but they unfold into claws. (unless i'm mistaken and those arn't missle launchers built into the arms......?

They're not missile launchers.

[KingNor]

i'm not gonna do one of those point by point posts, so i'll do my best... -kingnor

for starters, as an animation student, i can tell you the excuse that the animation is done today as opossed to 20 years ago is total BS. a professional animator can make something look like its moving properly without the technology of his craft to forceing him to make things look like they're moving faster and more impressivly.

the mac zero valks look like they are outperforming the sdf valks BECAUSE THE ANIMATORS WANTED THEM TO LOOK FLASHY not because cg just makes things move better.

seriously don't contest me on this.

the bosters on the supervalk? not to boost the performance of the valk? ok. i might be wrong about that. i thought they were to balance for the extra weight. in any case thats gotta be why they are on the GBP armor.. but what ever i could be wrong on that point.

and the monsters claws? well if the monster has a tripod already wtf are the hands for?? why didn't it use its tripod? the hands make no sence. HAD the hands been a prototype for hand to hand combat, and been shown to be inneffective, that would have made more sence, that was my point. i know the hands on the mk1 arn't for hand to hand.

and i think i'm right about the launchers in the hands:

Armament:

(main) 4 x Viggers 40 cm liquid-cooled cannon

(rocket) 2 x Raitheon LSSN-20G 3-barrel ground-to-ground missile launcher

if i'm wrong please let me know how here's the source:

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...wr00/index.html

***edit*** ok i didn't realize the info i was looking at was for a mk2, so yeah the hands are only hands and not launchers. my bad.

Edited October 27, 2004 by KingNor

[Panon]

for starters, as an animation student, i can tell you the excuse that the animation is done today as opossed to 20 years ago is total BS.  a professional animator can make something look like its moving properly without  the technology of his craft to forceing him to make things look like they're moving faster and more impressivly.

the mac zero valks look like they are outperforming the sdf valks BECAUSE THE ANIMATORS WANTED THEM TO LOOK FLASHY not because cg just makes things move better.

Uh.. that's EXACTLY my point. It's 2004. Valkyries should be made to look cool and to look like advanced superfighters compared to conventional aircraft.

They should not have to fit some standards for how they look or move that was set 20 years ago.

and the monsters claws?  well if the monster has a tripod already wtf are the hands for??  why didn't it use its tripod?  the hands make no sence.  HAD the hands been a prototype for hand to hand combat, and been shown to be inneffective, that would have made more sence, that was my point.  i know the hands on the mk1 arn't for hand to hand.

As I said, for additional balance and so the hands don't take 100% of the stress from the recoil.

As for the arms, no missile launchers on the Mk1, added later to the Mk2. As you can see in the picture, the arms are almost totally taken up by the 'claws'.

[Pat S]

The 'claws' are NOT for hand to hand combat! They're for stability - the 'claws' as well as being able to lock in on the carrier would work off the carrier (unlike the cables suggestions) as the Monster could take a position and spider in (that's what the appearance of it looks like) fire, then disengage and be mobile again.

So, if the monster was in a jungle, it could use the claws to grab tree roots? Because, just grabbing 500 lbs of dirt wouldn't help much I don't think.

It's ok, the monster claws are silly, no big deal.

[KingNor]

The 'claws' are NOT for hand to hand combat! They're for stability - the 'claws' as well as being able to lock in on the carrier would work off the carrier (unlike the cables suggestions) as the Monster could take a position and spider in (that's what the appearance of it looks like) fire, then disengage and be mobile again.

So, if the monster was in a jungle, it could use the claws to grab tree roots? Because, just grabbing 500 lbs of dirt wouldn't help much I don't think.

It's ok, the monster claws are silly, no big deal.

yeah monsters are so friggin hard core, just the claws are a bit much.

its nice that the monster seemed to have kinda a big role in the serise, it sends off the big nasty birdman. yay monster (now it can clap for it's accomplishment!)

***edit*** i REALLY hope that little girl wasn't on deck when that thing fired!

"ow, my freakin' ears!"

Edited October 27, 2004 by KingNor

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The 'claws' are NOT for hand to hand combat! They're for stability - the 'claws' as well as being able to lock in on the carrier would work off the carrier (unlike the cables suggestions) as the Monster could take a position and spider in (that's what the appearance of it looks like) fire, then disengage and be mobile again.

Like the tanks in starcraft. They are sitting ducks if you leave them in the wrong mode for too long pinned to one spot, forced to aim in a single direction. Tieing cables means no ability to point at things in different directions. As seen in mac +, 1 shot from those anti warship missiles and it's bye-bye monster. And those are rare. The controller of the mech should have complete independance from others in combat imo If it is a siege weapon and nothing more than ok, but philosophically a monster to me is a tank which moves as well.

So, if the monster was in a jungle, it could use the claws to grab tree roots? Because, just grabbing 500 lbs of dirt wouldn't help much I don't think.

I don't think a jungle would be suitable for giant mecha if you consider how dense they can get. I would rather one of those landspeeder bike things in star wars.

But a scorched earth environment like what happened after sw I where you had rogue zentradi running around with stolen mechs? maybe. The monsters could pick a spot high up, dig into the rocks, aim, fire and move for a clean ambush while the valks take care of the rest. It would probably take much longer to fight a large group individually by dogfighting them, or going one-to-one than to just get the group into one area and shoot them with big guns from afar, dealing heavy damage cheaply. Maybe even slowly advancing the monster forward as the enemies retreat and more ground is gained.

Maybe the claws don't grip the ground and only rely on what it is holding onto, to keep it steady? Maybe it merely absorbs shock (it may allow for some give) and helps to spring the mech into a forward motion using its arms after the kickback, to lessen the stress on the third leg? The philosophy being to fire shots more rapidly by having the mech and guns lined up more quickly after each shot? Even if it had nothing good to grip onto, just having them there to scrape against a rough surface to add friction and to put added weight to the front (as well as prevent it from falling over backward or forward) has to count for something.

Edited October 27, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[bsu legato]

This topic is just silly. When a VF-0 and a VF-1 appear in the same frame of animation, then you can compare their how their performance "looks." Judging one against the other on the sole basis of animation seperated by more than 20 years is assinine, particularly when some of that animation was AnimeFriend. Personally, I always loved the AnimeFriend bits where a valk appeared to jump around in frame, or even change colors. Are we going to attribute that to the VF-1's performance too?

Edited October 27, 2004 by bsu legato

[Graham]

and the vf-0... how is it it can carry an entire drone on its back when the "super valk" needed huge boosters to help it carry the little bit of extra armor it had. stuff like that just makes the serise stand way out of chronology.

?

Nanashi, now has translated the Japanese source material from the R2 DVD booklet, concerning the VF-0 with Ghost Booster. It mentions how the AI, avionics and reconnaissance equipment was removed from the Ghost Booster to reduce the weight when attached to the VF-0. However, it also mentions that the weight of the VF-0 with Ghoost Booster attached increased by 35%, while the available thrust only increased by 20%.

And the VF-1 Super did not 'need' the FAST pack poosters to carry the rest of the FAST back. The boosters were to give it extra thrust in combat.

Graham

[KingNor]

i could be wrong on that point.

yup

[ewilen]

***edit*** i REALLY hope that little girl wasn't on deck when that thing fired!

"ow, my freakin' ears!"

Yup, she indeedly doodly was.

[BlueMax]

...and the monsters claws? well if the monster has a tripod already wtf are the hands for?? why didn't it use its tripod? the hands make no sence.......

I seriously think that you have not watched Episode 5 yet at the point where you made the post above.....

In the animation, yes, the claws, or rather GRAPPLING HOOKS are used to secure the MKI Monster, IN ADDITION to the another "recoil absorber" (for lack a a real term to use)

Here are the pics:

[Syngyne]

i dont' think i've ever actualy seen the monster walk around.  it's always rolling on it's rollers.

In an episode of the original Macross you see one take a step after it powers up in the hangar. Granted, it doesn't go very far.

[LORD KUNGFU]

IF the claws have funtion or not, it was added for asthetics and to look cool. LIke any design, some like it, some dont. They added it to make it look cool then thought of some ish to have it there. So they came up with the anchoring it down idea. Maybe the claws have some other function, just cuz it was not shown in the anime doesnt mean that it doesnt have other uses. Why does the monster have feet? Just put wheels on the damn thing. WHy even have it look like a robot. Just use a simple tank design. Because a robot looks cooler. Simple.

[LORD KUNGFU]

Then again, this is anime and if I can swallow a transforming airplane, I should be able to swallow a giant claw on the front of an artillery piece. 

i really really get pissed at thiese comments...

nessessity is the mother of invention, the military NEEDED transforming planes, so it makes sence that the resorces went into the valkyries to FORCE them to work.

Transforming planes are totally usless. Laziness and greed are sister and brother to (nessssity)the mother of invention.

the valkyries are a very well thought out design that fill a plot driven purpose, stuff like the claws on the MONSTER1 and the "less" advanced valks pulling more advanced manuvers is simple gawdy showyness to make the show "cool" and have no clear cut reason to be there.

Yeah, its called anime. DUh!

no amount of tie down straps would make a plane viable for hand to hand combat. given anime magic it makes sence to have transforming valks.

there are a dozen things that make more sence than big robotic claws to help brace the monster:

straps were mentioned, recoiling barrols would work, simply designing the center of gravity so the thing could fire properly, built in tripod legs (much simpler). i'm confident the only reason the monster has claws was so it would look neat, and then someone thought up.."i guess it could use them to brace itself"

wow.. i went on a tirade.. back to sleep for me.. ZZzzzz

.g

[mikeszekely]

RAAAAAH *MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH*

Best picture EVER!

[Aurel Tristen]

A correction about the main guns. There were planned to be 50cm linear cannons, but that did not happen. Apologies.

Here is some insightful translated text on this Monster hot off the press:

(refresh)

http://nanashino.macrossmecha.info/armarty/hwr00mki.html

[JLYC]

IF the claws have funtion or not, it was added for asthetics and to look cool. LIke any design, some like it, some dont. They added it to make it look cool then thought of some ish to have it there. So they came up with the anchoring it down idea. Maybe the claws have some other function, just cuz it was not shown in the anime doesnt mean that it doesnt have other uses. Why does the monster have feet? Just put wheels on the damn thing. WHy even have it look like a robot. Just use a simple tank design. Because a robot looks cooler. Simple.

I agree with ya...there is no purpose of the monster having feet. given how much it can lift the foot off the ground, it probably can't clear many obstacles. also I bet any robot with feet will travel slower than ones with wheels.

in anime it's all about cool factor- so if everyone on MW seem to have never complained about the feet, i don't see how the claws should bother anyone.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

In an episode of the original Macross you see one take a step after it powers up in the hangar. Granted, it doesn't go very far.

..and don't forget to watch the episode after kamjin stole the zentradi resizing machine and gets taken down by (mutant) monsters standing on hills.

He actually runs using the monster. So like I was saying, it's not just a siege weapon after all.

I agree with ya...there is no purpose of the monster having feet. given how much it can lift the foot off the ground, it probably can't clear many obstacles. also I bet any robot with feet will travel slower than ones with wheels.

I can think of a few reasons:

-with regards to the transformable monster the feet would distribute the weight evenly on the ground and might help keep the robot steady when landing by absorbing the shock. Giant legs with knees that bend are better than wheels that might get squashed here. The same principle I assume would apply with regults with the grasshopper-like legs. When they land from a hop, they absorb the shock by bending the knees. And these were designed for fighing in any environment.

-because robots are tall, they have an advantage over tanks when walking on uneven terrain. Check star wars for an example. I would much rather be in a giant robot than a tank on the ground. Tanks would topple over if forced to travel over ground that isn't flat enough and be too unsteady to be able to target anything. In extreme conditions it risks getting bogged down. A big boulder for a 4wd car is an obstacle for that car, but merely a small rock to a robot whose feet could step onto it without losing any balance. And would there be much speed in some environments where there isn't much flat surface, or good for vehcles that use wheels, like snow? A robot that just runs is going to be quicker in this instance, but this depends on the size of the wheels and speed of the robot legs. I remember there were some strange looking vehicles ion episode 2 of starwars with gigantic wheels. But these don't look that practical because they would be unsteady.

-In some instances, legs allow for things that wheels can't allow for. With legs you could say, climb a ladder, (not the monster but a spartan might) leap from one surface to another (like the tops of buildings or a gap on the ground that leads to a large pit) or even prevent losing balance. (a tank landing on its side is useless, imagine ifthey brought tanks on sdf1?) Add arms and you can lift yourself up from the ground if the machine fell over. If a robot lifted a tank and placed it upside down, could the tank do anything to keep fighting?

Keep in mind that in the macross world they do have tanks (there is one in the episode where the world get blasted by the 4 million ships) but they probably aren't OT enhanced or anything to make them special. These robots aren't just conventional robots you see, they are OT ones enhanced by the knowledge of alien race. I assume normal robots would have existed but would have been the typical kind in factories and stuff.

If you want to do an experiment: bring a remote control car to a hilly bike track with uneven terrain. (lots of rocks, bumby surfaces, and natural obstacles like tree branches) Now get your friend to race you with his RC, while you use your feet to run. See who wins the race. A giant robot or giant zentradi would easily beat a tank or vehicle with wheels imo. I would be surprised if the car didn't get stuck onto something, topple over, or be forced to go around obstacles (as opposed to just jumping over them) before finishing.

Redo the experiment in a variety of surfaces: grass, areas with steep inclines, in a creek, flat surface on a rainy day with puddles.

Given that the monster isn't designed to be all environment like the VF, it would at least trade off lack of speed for firepower or other things. (ie the fact that it could shoot at stuff from afar) In real life there are some robots that can jog so who knows what cold be achieved in future when they experiment with true running robots. (like robot dogs)

Edited October 28, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[LORD KUNGFU]

In an episode of the original Macross you see one take a step after it powers up in the hangar. Granted, it doesn't go very far.

..and don't forget to watch the episode after kamjin stole the zentradi resizing machine and gets taken down by (mutant) monsters standing on hills.

He actually runs using the monster. So like I was saying, it's not just a siege weapon after all.

I agree with ya...there is no purpose of the monster having feet. given how much it can lift the foot off the ground, it probably can't clear many obstacles. also I bet any robot with feet will travel slower than ones with wheels.

I can think of a few reasons:

-with regards to the transformable monster the feet would distribute the weight evenly on the ground and might help keep the robot steady when landing by absorbing the shock. Giant legs with knees that bend are better than wheels that might get squashed here. The same principle I assume would apply with regults with the grasshopper-like legs. When they land from a hop, they absorb the shock by bending the knees. And these were designed for fighing in any environment.

-because robots are tall, they have an advantage over tanks when walking on uneven terrain. Check star wars for an example. I would much rather be in a giant robot than a tank on the ground. Tanks would topple over if forced to travel over ground that isn't flat enough and be too unsteady to be able to target anything. In extreme conditions it risks getting bogged down. A big boulder for a 4wd car is an obstacle for that car, but merely a small rock to a robot whose feet could step onto it without losing any balance. And would there be much speed in some environments where there isn't much flat surface, or good for vehcles that use wheels, like snow? A robot that just runs is going to be quicker in this instance, but this depends on the size of the wheels and speed of the robot legs. I remember there were some strange looking vehicles ion episode 2 of starwars with gigantic wheels. But these don't look that practical because they would be unsteady.

-In some instances, legs allow for things that wheels can't allow for. With legs you could say, climb a ladder, (not the monster but a spartan might) leap from one surface to another (like the tops of buildings or a gap on the ground that leads to a large pit) or even prevent losing balance. (a tank landing on its side is useless, imagine ifthey brought tanks on sdf1?) Add arms and you can lift yourself up from the ground if the machine fell over. If a robot lifted a tank and placed it upside down, could the tank do anything to keep fighting?

Keep in mind that in the macross world they do have tanks (there is one in the episode where the world get blasted by the 4 million ships) but they probably aren't OT enhanced or anything to make them special. These robots aren't just conventional robots you see, they are OT ones enhanced by the knowledge of alien race. I assume normal robots would have existed but would have been the typical kind in factories and stuff.

If you want to do an experiment: bring a remote control car to a hilly bike track with uneven terrain. (lots of rocks, bumby surfaces, and natural obstacles like tree branches) Now get your friend to race you with his RC, while you use your feet to run. See who wins the race. A giant robot or giant zentradi would easily beat a tank or vehicle with wheels imo. I would be surprised if the car didn't get stuck onto something, topple over, or be forced to go around obstacles (as opposed to just jumping over them) before finishing.

Redo the experiment in a variety of surfaces: grass, areas with steep inclines, in a creek, flat surface on a rainy day with puddles.

Given that the monster isn't designed to be all environment like the VF, it would at least trade off lack of speed for firepower or other things. (ie the fact that it could shoot at stuff from afar) In real life there are some robots that can jog so who knows what cold be achieved in future when they experiment with true running robots. (like robot dogs)

Hmmm, I like a guy that gets into the details. But in this case, your arguments are some of the worst Ive seen so far. Im not sure how to quote each of your paragraphs, but Ill must make one big response.

1) you can distribute weight evenly without feet. I see large truck carrying large tractors or super large airplanes. They have wheels, not feet.

2) giant legs with knees to absorb shock is totally unessassary. I see trucks flying over the desert at 160 mph, landing from high altittudes, and none of them have legs to absorb the shock impact. Even jumbo jets that weigh hundreds of thousands of pounds dont have legs. Even with the tremendous weight, the wheels dont get sqaushed like you say. They do have shock aborbers, wich pivots and maybe works somewhat like a knee, but is not bipedal. I never seen a large aircraft preparing to land by having legs sprout out of it, usuall wheels will come out. Just something I have ovserved.

3)Ha Ha Ha. Ho Ho Ho. He He He......a giant robot with 2 lets does not have an advantage over a tank in uneven terrain. THe exact opposite holds true. Yeah, they had the chicken walker in star wars, but same as macross, strichtly for the cool factor. I think the hover speeder bikes had a better advantage to the chicken walker. A tall top heavy robot will topple over much esier that a tank with a low center of gravity. A tall legged robot would topple over also in rough terrain. You say a vehicle with super large wheels is more unsteady and less practical than a super tall robot with 2 skinny legs. Thats just too funny......

4) you say that legs will help it climb a ladder. When the last time you saw the super heavy monster try and climb a ladder on the sdf-1. Also, you dont need ladders, just use an elevator. Like the one they use when lifting the jets from below the carrier to the surface of the carrier for take off. The dont have the jet transform into robot mode, then climb a ladder to the upper deck, then transform back into a jet for take off.......ha ha ha ha .....LOl....Lol....Lol.....or even why use a ladder. Just build a ramp.....lol...lol.....

5)Even nasa used wheels on its rover they send to other planets. Not legs. Have you ever seen the robot called the shrimp...it has wheels, and nothing can stop it, it will go up steg like butter.

6) you say a robot will grab the tank and place it upside down, so it would be like a turtle, but the tank would have shot the robot before it had a chance to grap it.

7) yeah, there were tanks in macross, but the didnt emphasize it, because that would have made a boring show. Not because mecha with legs is for feasable.

8)Instead of me racing against an r/c car, how about racing against a dirt bike, I think I would lose. And there are r/c cars that would whoop butt on a person in the dirt. Unless your thinking of Nikko crap. My r/c car does about 70mph. I dont think even carl lewis runs close to that speed. Also, even with running robots, cars can easily run hundreds of miles per hour speeds, I dont think anything with legs could run those speeds with out its legs transforming into wheels. Hell, even beast machines rattrap had to transform his legs into wheels to make a quick get away from the motorcycle drones.

Its all cool factor with macross. How long would you watch the show with tanks shooting at each other. Not very long. But throw in some tranforming mech, even non transforming, just cool looking, and you got a hit. Hyhuh!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

1) you can distribute weight evenly without feet. I see large truck carrying large tractors or super large airplanes. They have wheels, not feet.

Of course you could, but why not ALSO take advantage of the feet? If you look at the Cheyenne and Octos they use a combination of wheels and feet. Legs have advantages on a surface with large craters or steep inclines that would risk sending those trucks toppling over. If you want another movie example, remember the flashback scene in terminator 1 where the gunner in the car was shaking around alot because the gorund was so uneven? That's what I'm imagining a battlefield might be like. Even with the speed of a car, the hilly ground would just slow it down. A giant robot could leap or run faster if it didnt need to have the surface of its feet constantly in contact with the ground at all points. A semitrailer is dangerous when it is loaded with stuff and makes a sudden turn.

2) giant legs with knees to absorb shock is totally unessassary. I see trucks flying over the desert at 160 mph, landing from high altittudes, and none of them have legs to absorb the shock impact. Even jumbo jets that weigh hundreds of thousands of pounds dont have legs. Even with the tremendous weight, the wheels dont get sqaushed like you say. They do have shock aborbers, wich pivots and maybe works somewhat like a knee, but is not bipedal. I never seen a large aircraft preparing to land by having legs sprout out of it, usuall wheels will come out. Just something I have ovserved.

Yeah but the landings are kind of gentle with the jets. They aproach a certain way. The way the robots land in anime is kind of rough with barely a regard to the velocity and overall wieght of the mech. Take the regults as a good example. It has to be really strong to be able to take the full wieght of the mech dropping right down vertically and not just aproaching gently.

3)Ha Ha Ha. Ho Ho Ho. He He He......a giant robot with 2 lets does not have an advantage over a tank in uneven terrain. THe exact opposite holds true. Yeah, they had the chicken walker in star wars, but same as macross, strichtly for the cool factor. I think the hover speeder bikes had a better advantage to the chicken walker. A tall top heavy robot will topple over much esier that a tank with a low center of gravity. A tall legged robot would topple over also in rough terrain. You say a vehicle with super large wheels is more unsteady and less practical than a super tall robot with 2 skinny legs. Thats just too funny......

I agree with the hoverbike comment but not the treads being uber advantageous. Not against a giant well-balanced mech using technology that really allows it to run. (of course this doesn't exist in real life. But a monster's legs are thick and if it can run in the anime then it would be pretty fast imo)

As for giant wheels? Depends on how big the actual vehicle is right? It may need more energy to spin that wheel than to lift a leg. Top speed is only 1 factor. It would take time for that wheel to gain speed similar to the way it would take time for you to accelerate while on a racer bicycle. But while taking that long to accelerate, aren't you a sitting duck? Remember you want to be able to move quickly and responsively. A giant wheel would beat the legs at top speed but be more clumsy in certain situations. My legs can push me in any direction instantly whereas a wheel requires steering and can only reverse or go forward which takes longer to get the vehicle moving responsively.

4) you say that legs will help it climb a ladder. When the last time you saw the super heavy monster try and climb a ladder on the sdf-1. Also, you dont need ladders, just use an elevator. Like the one they use when lifting the jets from below the carrier to the surface of the carrier for take off. The dont have the jet transform into robot mode, then climb a ladder to the upper deck, then transform back into a jet for take off.......ha ha ha ha .....LOl....Lol....Lol.....or even why use a ladder. Just build a ramp.....lol...lol.....

You're right. Ladder is a bad analogy for the monster. But mechs do more than roll across the surface of the ground was what I wanted to say. They are practical for reasons wheels aren't. And wheels can be practical for reasons legs aren't. Why can't both vehicles co-exist? (like they actually do in the series? why choose one over the other when you can have both? sheesh!)

5)Even nasa used wheels on its rover they send to other planets. Not legs. Have you ever seen the robot called the shrimp...it has wheels, and nothing can stop it, it will go up steg like butter.

Yeah but that's unfair. It's used because its tried and tested so there wasn't much choice to begin with given the limits we have. You're not giving legs a chance yet. They are still experimental in the real world. I'm sure given time and more funding if research into legs were advanced further we could see benefits to exploration that wheels just arent suitable. Refer to the robodog example. Patience grasshopper. These things take time.

6) you say a robot will grab the tank and place it upside down, so it would be like a turtle, but the tank would have shot the robot before it had a chance to grap it.

Are you sure? Can a tank shoot a regult that has just jumped over the turret in mid air and fired from above? What about a Qrau which is just a powersuit with gigantic jetpack for a giant? I'm pretty sure a tank could be outmaneuvered if you consider that to a giant zentradi the tank is just a toy on the ground. There are all sorts of crazy situations that could occur. A mech is modelled after the human form which allows the pilot to go toe to toe. A tank has no limbs.

7) yeah, there were tanks in macross, but the didnt emphasize it, because that would have made a boring show. Not because mecha with legs is for feasable.

You're probably right. I have to admit I like and prefer robots and giant mechs. I just want to point out if taken to a large scale, legs can be feasible if you think about the whole philosophy behind why the characters thought they needed them in the context of giant killing. If those things got close, a mech that responds the same way you would respond in real life if you were thier size, has a responsive advantage. You are still just controlling a machine but we see those "machines" doing things like kicking, punching and throwing the giants. So there is logic and 'feasiblilty' right there staring us in the face. As mentioned alien tech is involved and machines are at the level of tech where they can finally move with the precision and grace of movement of the human body.

8)Instead of me racing against an r/c car, how about racing against a dirt bike, I think I would lose. And there are r/c cars that would whoop butt on a person in the dirt. Unless your thinking of Nikko crap. My r/c car does about 70mph. I dont think even carl lewis runs close to that speed. Also, even with running robots, cars can easily run hundreds of miles per hour speeds, I dont think anything with legs could run those speeds with out its legs transforming into wheels. Hell, even beast machines rattrap had to transform his legs into wheels to make a quick get away from the motorcycle drones.

Yeah but my comparision was with a giant robot and regular sized tank. Or regular sized human with a small rc car. I'm assuming humans wouldn't be at the point where they would bother trying to make such masive wheels since they wanted legs all along for the advantages the legs give. Limbs are more versatile, (can do more things, offer more fine articulation, more intuitive to the controller) while wheels are more specialised. (used for hauling ass but limited at the small scale)

Its all cool factor with macross. How long would you watch the show with tanks shooting at each other. Not very long. But throw in some tranforming mech, even non transforming, just cool looking, and you got a hit.  Hyhuh!

Yes that's true. But I still want to stick to my idea that there are still terrain advantages to legs and they aren't completely impractical. Robots on wheels can't climb steps for example. You need some system of limbs to be able to run on uneven terrain unless you want these giant exposed wheels on your machines. It would only be natural that after creating the destroids they would recycle some of what they created from those robots and incorporate the robotic limbs with other military vehicles. A monster that runs instead of rolls on tracks would seem logical in the context of creating machines designed to combat giant men as opposed to giant tanks. I have nothing against wheels and how practical they are in the real world honestly. But the world of macross is different to ours since they have alien technology.

Now if you started to play "What if?" and imagine if we had robotic limbs that could match the moves of organic lifeforms and the speed wasn't a problem because earth had access to alien technology from a civilisation way ahead of us then you start to think: "maybe this whole idea of running robots ain't such a bs concept after all"..IF.... we were given an advanced alien races highest technology to play and experiment with. Ostriches and emus can run really fast and they use legs, right? Now imagine if we had giant ostriches and emus? Now just imagine we used the advanced technology to make giant robot emus and we knew it oculd be done because the technology was so advanced? "No way Lvis, that just couldn't happen!" I hear you say. Consider this: Stuff that is common to us humans today would seem magical or unbelievable to people in ancient times. If you were to take a flashlight and say, go back in time to another period of history and show the people this flashlight, they would think you had magic powers or something. Why? Because the tech to them is something from another world. They couldn't conceive of it existing because of the huge gap in progress, similar to the huge gap in progress from human tech in macross to the protoculture civilisation.

So the point I'm trying to make is these robots aren't just robots, but robots that were way better than what the current world had seen when they were having thier anti un war going. Where robots didn't move slowly and sluggishly, but rather, they moved with speed and accuracy. If VF's can fly around and perform such sharp accurate manuevers, then why is it so hard to accept the equivalent of that advancement in the destroid's and other mecha? (such that we can have giant i-peds that can really run?)

Edited October 28, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sundown]

But I still want to stick to my idea that there are still terrain advantages to legs and they aren't completely impractical. Robots on wheels can't climb steps for example. You need some system of limbs to be able to run on uneven terrain unless you want these giant exposed wheels on your machines.

Not true. We already have wheelchairs that climb stairs with a cleverly arrainged system of reasonably sized wheels. No limbs. Brought to you by the same people who made the Segway.

-Al

[Zentrandude]

8)Instead of me racing against an r/c car, how about racing against a dirt bike, I think I would lose. And there are r/c cars that would whoop butt on a person in the dirt. Unless your thinking of Nikko crap. My r/c car does about 70mph. I dont think even carl lewis runs close to that speed. Also, even with running robots, cars can easily run hundreds of miles per hour speeds, I dont think anything with legs could run those speeds with out its legs transforming into wheels. Hell, even beast machines rattrap had to transform his legs into wheels to make a quick get away from the motorcycle drones.

Yeah but my comparision was with a giant robot and regular sized tank. Or regular sized human with a small rc car. I'm assuming humans wouldn't be at the point where they would bother trying to make such masive wheels since they wanted legs all along for the advantages the legs give. Limbs are more versatile, (can do more things, offer more fine articulation, more intuitive to the controller) while wheels are more specialised. (used for hauling ass but limited at the small scale)

i have a mini-z overland h1 thats 1/28 scale (about 6 1/4" long, 3" wide, and 2 3/4" high) thats slightly modified (titanium gears, larger tires, a crest spinbrush motor, and stiffer shocks for jumps) and it easily outruns people on flat surfaces and hilly terran, still gets beaten by the dirt bikers thou.

[LORD KUNGFU]

yeah, but building giant tranforming mech or human like mech is overkill. If I went to go fight a guy that weighed 400 lbs, (of course assuming that I didnt have my kung fu skills), I would not go out and build a giant exoskeleton so I can weigh 400 lbs. to fight the guy. I would just shoot him.

Edited October 28, 2004 by LORD KUNGFU

[AlphaHX]

yeah, but building giant tranforming mech or human like mech is overkill. If I went to go fight a guy that weighed 400 lbs, (of course assuming that I didnt have my kung fu skills), I would not go out and build a giant exoskeleton so I can weigh 400 lbs. to fight the guy. I would just shoot him.

havent u learned anything from watching godzilla? bullets may have effects on 400lb guys but not 400,000lb creatures!

[LORD KUNGFU]

Now if you started to play "What if?" and imagine if we had robotic limbs that could match the moves of organic lifeforms and the speed wasn't a problem because earth had access to alien technology from a civilisation way ahead of us then you start to think: "maybe this whole idea of running robots ain't such a bs concept after all"..IF.... we were given an advanced alien races highest technology to play and experiment with. Ostriches and emus can run really fast and they use legs, right? Now imagine if we had giant ostriches? "No way Lvis, that just couldn't happen!" I hear you say. Consider this: Stuff that is common to us humans today would seem magical or unbelievable to people in ancient times. If you were to take a flashlight and say, go back in time to another period of history and show the people this flashlight, they would think you had magic powers or something. Why? Because the tech to them is something from another world. They couldn't conceive of it existing because of the huge gap in progress, similar to the huge gap in progress from humans in macross to the protoculture civilisation.

Your actually going to prove my point. Lets say what if.... and that giant walking mecha with human or bioligical like movement is possible. Over really tough terrain, and the ability to move like o. j. simpson, then a bipedal mech would be very effeftive. More neato than anything else. But, would be best used if playing giant mech football. When we have that technology, we by then may be able to just teleport where we wanted to go and not need vehicles ever again. Then we would evolve into big fleshy brains with no limbs cuz we wouldnt need them. Im not saying that it would not be possible to do giant legged mech, but by then, we would have more effective or efficiant means of transportation.

If to say that we have that technology, why would we be in giant mech with legs anyway. If there were very rough terrain, we would just use helicopters, or just hop on our futuristic hover scooters and hove over the terrain. Its like technology will preceed the use of giant legged mech. Just like there is not any airplane dog fighting anymore. Simpley because you can already kill the enemy with a missle before you even see the enemy. WE got bombs. Why would I go chasing you with giant mech, when I can just blow your planet up with the push of a button. We got death star, we got death star, we got death star.....lol

JUst like if we went to africa, there would be a lot of animals that could kill us. They weigh more, have more legs, are faster, much stronger. Yet we can wipe them out because we got guns. Same with zentradi, you can just shoot them.

[LORD KUNGFU]

yeah, but building giant tranforming mech or human like mech is overkill. If I went to go fight a guy that weighed 400 lbs, (of course assuming that I didnt have my kung fu skills), I would not go out and build a giant exoskeleton so I can weigh 400 lbs. to fight the guy. I would just shoot him. 

havent u learned anything from watching godzilla? bullets may have effects on 400lb guys but not 400,000lb creatures!

yeah, true, godzilla is one tough mofo. But what would I do with a mech with legs. Step on godzillas toes, or jump him and bite him like a mosquito. Lol....

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Not true. We already have wheelchairs that climb stairs with a cleverly arrainged system of reasonably sized wheels. No limbs. Brought to you by the same people who made the Segway.

fair enough, wheels aren't completely useless then..

ok, ok, but a disabled human still wouldn't outmaneuver a giant with 2 working legs in an armoured powersuit. He would probably outrun a monster though. jk

yeah, but building giant tranforming mech or human like mech is overkill. If I went to go fight a guy that weighed 400 lbs, (of course assuming that I didnt have my kung fu skills), I would not go out and build a giant exoskeleton so I can weigh 400 lbs. to fight the guy. I would just shoot him.

Ah, but what if the giant got so close and knocked weapons out of your hands? Now what if the technology of the robotics was so advanced that you may as well have modelled the form of the machine off the human body since there was no reason not to, given how advanced the machines could be made to move and perform? The only reason we don't in real life is because it is impractical but not to the lucky macross people who live in a comic world with thier own rules and events. Already I can come up with 1 really "realistic" reason for needing to model the VF on human body: The fact that if you get knocked to the ground, you can at least pick yourself up with your hands and grab all sort of weapons with the hand.

Imagine knocking a giant out and taking his weapons, and then using it against him? That's as good enough a reason as any imo.

The transforming idea I agree is far fetched (as is the whole idea of the sdf 1 needing to look humanoid ) but to me, limbs have thier purpose. If the monster wants to spend all day with rollers trying to slowly get over hills and try to keep steady as it levels it's guns at things and fails to aim accurately because the base of the vehicle is leaning all over of the place, then so be it, but legs in that instance are just more efficent. I would think that bending one of the independant knees just a little to compensate for the variation in elevation is just more human and intiutive.

Your actually going to prove my point. Lets say what if.... and that giant walking mecha with human or bioligical like movement is possible. Over really tough terrain, and the ability to move like o. j. simpson, then a bipedal mech would be very effeftive. More neato than anything else. But, would be best used if playing giant mech football. When we have that technology, we by then may be able to just teleport where we wanted to go and not need vehicles ever again. Then we would evolve into big fleshy brains with no limbs cuz we wouldnt need them. Im not saying that it would not be possible to do giant legged mech, but by then, we would have more effective or efficiant means of transportation.

Nope because we wouldn't understand all of it. The reverse engineering of the tech wasn't entirely done. They tried to master antigravity but even when sdf1 launched it still had glitches and the theories about how it should work were a little fuzzy to the best minds. Did you see any hovercars in city around macross? They were still learning. As I said it takes time. Patience. If the antigrav thing could be used everywhere we would have definately seen hovertanks.

If to say that we have that technology, why would we be in giant mech with legs anyway. If there were very rough terrain, we would just use helicopters, or just hop on our futuristic hover scooters and hove over the terrain. Its like technology will preceed the use of giant legged mech. Just like there is not any airplane dog fighting anymore. Simpley because you can already kill the enemy with a missle before you even see the enemy. WE got bombs. Why would I go chasing you with giant mech, when I can just blow your planet up with the push of a button. We got death star, we got death star, we got death star.....lol

Because antigrav hadn't been mastered. You will note that as the timeline advances so does the technology. Helicopters can be shot down and are not used to fight from the ground. Mechs can hide low for cover. Missiles? Computers can lock onto them to shoot them down as Roy did in mac zero. Bombs? It would be unwise to start a war because of retalation, so you would be forced to use conventional stuff to avoid sensitive situations with neighbours you wouldn't want to piss off. It would be like me shooting you in an area full of explosives with me in the room.

JUst like if we went to africa, there would be a lot of animals that could kill us. They weigh more, have more legs, are faster, much stronger. Yet we can wipe them out because we got guns. Same with zentradi, you can just shoot them

Ah but Zentradi have mecha and beams of death, and um... I think they are a little more threatening than a bunch of wild animals that are unarmed and only attack if provoked. Besides what if I threw a bunch of deadly spider at you or a scorpian? What are you going to do shoot yourself? One sudden movement could result in death. What about a snake that crept up on you or a deadly taipan that can bite you several times before you've even realised there was something there?

You know man should learn to respect nature. After all, the inspiration for variable sweep wings came from the flexibility that birds have when they fly around. They may be primitive but evolution in these primitive beasts can teach us a thing or two. (this is I think a key theme in mac 0 where the bird+fish is combined to symbolise the philosophy for the variable fighters)

And like I keep saying: you can have both wheels and legs. There doesn't have to be a war between the two. I merely wanted to give a few ideas about why I think limbs are more than just to look cool. (even if that was thier intention for inclusion)

Edited October 28, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker