MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Macross_Fanboy]

Just an observation here, but from the looks of it, it's safe to say that most of us really enjoyed Macross Zero and it somewhat rushed ending. I for one am glad that I wasn't disappointed. Hehe, Kawamori Macross wins again!

Shin and Fokker looked gay when Fokker placed his hand on Shin's shoulder at the start of the show when they were headed back to ASKA.

Yeah, that didn't quite seem right, especially when Shin put his hand over Roy's. But then, both of their women were wisked away by the baddies so, they needed support, especially Shin since he is nowhere near the womanizer Roy is. Either way, that kinda struck me as "Uhh...getting a lil' physical eh Focker?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

A question that has bothered me with M0 is it seems ok to fight for love but were not supposed to fight because we're supposed to love everyone. Is this not a paradox that can't be solved? Even after Aeris tells Roy the way to save the world is to love he still fights earnestly in SDF:Macross. It makes me feel that new Macross productions are very preachy but don't offer any real solutions.

Well one more: If anger/fear/sadness is a kudon then wasn't Sarah sad and angered when piloting the birdman and therefore a kundon herself? By the birdman destroying the world was it not a kudon as well? It seems very hyprocritical to me that the "protoculture" would pass a judgment of death to all after expecting everyone to love one another. Are they exempt from there own ideals?

^

This isn't so much to do with macross but this is what I have suspected for a long time: I think partly the goal of a lot of sci-fi is to promote humanism over the rigid, irrational, outdated (not my words) religions of the world. The overall anti-war message is that "Man is flawed but through his emotions alone, he can save the world. Just learn to feel" Face it the UN (in real life) favours humanism and actually believes in equality and moral relativism. When in reality there is no such thing as equality. There will always be those who are richer than others, more successful in love than others, more popular than others, more talaented than others, more intelligent than others, and the sooner we realise that we are unique and not equal in everything, the better society is because it is allowed to contribute something to the human race (no matter how unimportant or valued it seems to the globalist agenda. (of a perfect utopian world society)

When watching sdf:macross, the impression I got was that: there doesn't have to be an answer to god's reasons for making us kill each other. It's ok to arm yourself to protect yourself from what you see as a threat. Freewill gives us liberty to be pioneers (like the reckless characters in macross plus who forge ahead and are not afraid to try dangerous and stupid things to learn) but it ultimately dooms us if we turn our backs on responsibility and ethics. ie The result of sharon apple's own "freewill" getting out of control when tied to emotions (the bioneural chip) and losing the reasoning (hardcoded program logic) that humans put into her hardcoded program for safety purposes. The mad scientist's "reckless", non-prudent, ambition; taken to a macronised level in the form of the SDF1 turning against civilian lives, is a lesson to man that moral recklessness has a price, too.

When reason from a mad scientist, is combined with emotion from a love-deprived singer who is constantly hurt and depressed, ....it can lead to disaster, not perfection.

To me there is that eternal struggle between reason and emotion. Where reason says: it's ok to blow away another person or murder or rape or steal thier stuff, if it's goverment santioned! After all, what's legal on a piece of paper by our elected leaders is right! I'm just a robot like sharon apple paid to do a job by my master. I'm not responsible for what happens. (wrong, there are moral reasons challenging laws to consider too)

The other emotional half of me says it is wrong to harm others no matter the reason because I am hurting people's feelings (and a lot more than that After all, killing animals for food might hurt the feeling of animal rights activists or a hippy vegetarian, but my beliefs say God gave these for me to eat so his own creation and gifts are not wasted if used to survive.)

Somewhere in between those extremes God is telling me: "shut up! learn through silence and behold the error of both lines of thinking and the extremes of left and right"

The only truth is what my conscience tells me is right or wrong and whether I can pierce that facade of deception used by single interest apologists and go deeper spiritually to see the real reasons that led to man's inhumanity to man, rather than being critical of the mere symptoms of the sickness in all of us. The symptoms are: suffering happens in the world everday, so stop whining and do something. The reasons for the problems: point to powerful single-interest groups pushing thier own selfish agendas and asking for more power to achieve thier ambition, without consideration for others or the wishes of the community. Even in democracy there is not eternal happiness because people still have to fight for control over who gets to make and pass the rules.

And thats where the reality of knowing the world was never promised to be a perfect place (a paradise where everyone gets what they want and nobody has to fight for thier slice of the pie, where we don't rely on weapons to protect our land) by God, but instead, more like a sinful place due to God promising not to directly interfere and upset the balance of freewill that all people demand, but...allowing spiritual protection from evil that some people pray for daily if they ask for help...voluntarily. (not by a single group or cult leader who can control the crowd through a specific man-made heirachy)

Whnever someone suffers it does no good to pretend it didn't happen ("ok lets cover this up and hope nobody finds out, after all what people don't know can't hurt them. As long as you can get away with a sin, it's ok, since the end justifies the means") or to point the finger at a particular group or person. Because no matter who is performing the evil act, if they are cursed or die, there will always be more men like him to replace him. Evil is not limited to a single person.

Like in LOTR evil is a force that can travel into anyone. Instead the lesson is to understand, (forgiving them because of imperfection in all of us) pray (asking to God that suffering be lessened) and hope. (knowing that although pain and suffering is inevitable, the outcome turns out good in the end since God is in control through indirect means and through enough people voluntarily obeying to do the right thing to make a real physical difference. A good example is when Global prepares the rest of humanity to abandon the reckless ambitions of his superiors who were only interested in appeasing the aliens if it meant they could keep thier positions of authority by using the sdf1 (and the threat of a secret weapon) as a bargaining chip to the aliens for peace, instead of rejecting thier demands and allowing human life; no matter what rank of importance, to survive. (Remember the tax payers on macross city helped those traitors understand the technology. It's a disgrace that a leader that poses in public as a protector of people would do such a thing. True colors show in times of pressure.)

The problem with ambitious high ranking people is they forget thier "slaves" entrust them to protect them, not use them. The minute you turn your back on them, the more it will backfire. (witness the destruction of bodol's army as all the good zentradi mutiny, and ally with the humans) In the grand scheme we are led to death because nobody questions the "why we are led to kill" We just accepted that it was inevitable and did nothing about it to correct our own hypocrisy and predjudice, which is preyed upon by think tanks who deliberately turn us against each other for political purposes.

The end of the world is in fact conditional on the actions of man to do the right thing or whether enough of the good guys who resist corruption are around to provide the balances and checks for the bad corrupt guys (like the mad scientist characters. The UN can't be blamed for the bad eggs after all, it's our stupidity and freewill which allows it to happen that is to blame). A single group or religion can't be blamed for all the world wars that humans engaged in. Corruption is in everyone - demons of fear are tempting people to do wrong everyday. It's just that we tend to hide our fear from everyone and believe our own lies instead of changing the destructive behaviour, seeking the cause that leads to the desruction, and trying to accept that we as an individual can be wrong on some things. (eg myung admitting she made mistakes to Sharon Apple; which was just an immature version of herself crying to 'be perfect' like the mad scientist had wanted, and also what the UN upper brass, had wanted to achieve in a perfect "new space order" where they would no longer need humans to govern the galaxy and humans could just abandon thier responsibility and concentrate on procreating like rabbits and having hedonistic fun.

Watch for the words "New Space Order" used in the elevator after the inquiry where Millard defended Guld and the speech he gives for the need for imperfect human pilots to make and govern the important decisions. New Space Order is a direct reference to "new world order" where a world dictator tries to impose his absolute rule on the slaves underneath him "1984"-style. Morals and Ethics are like the missing ingredients to the upper levels in control who foolishly think they can control everything and create a world which would 'be perfect'. You will note that humans are a necessary evil when making decisions. This is something that is interesting from a science fiction perspective because humanists themselves do not have a formula for right or wrong. Just a formula for emotional happiness where there are no strugles or fights because people will be assumed to be in a happy place when thier beliefs are not there to correct thier imperfect thinking pattern from an "always right" god who imposes "outdated" rules. (that are seen by the humanists as being put there for no reason) It's like if everyone could be hypnotised like the hacker Yang was in macross plus, all will be well because "it's all just joy!"

I hope this post has kind of made some sense because I have been thinking about the message myself as the world becomes more global in its ideals. It's almost as if we are all being asked to agree with each other and give up our own beliefs everyday, just because by being politically correct it would be 'convenient' and 'comfortable', and because it makes people 'feel good'. All the 'war is bad' messages sound tempting but if we are asked to disarm ourselves and throw out our ability to think (which is what the humans tried to do in macross plus when they wanted an AI to control the world and to create the souless trance music), then aren't we just becoming more like the zentradi? There has to be a good reason for it otherwise I'm not going to budge. (not because I'm hardheaded or can't apreciate a perfect society, but more because I just don't see it happening the way pro-humanist science fiction authors with thier heads in the clouds think it would happen. (I'm more a fan of dystopian rather than utopian sci fi because of my cynicism of people's true motives )

I know this is going to sound paranoid of me but I cling to the belief that science fiction movies are created sometimes by those who hang around the powerful people and can see the motives that the goverments and world leaders want to push and kind of make certain movies to test our reactions (or question our beliefs) to issues that they know are going to be controversial in the future. It's almost like they know this will happen (they are the ones partly wanting to bring it about) but it will kind of soften the blow to the conservatives who will rise up in strong opposition agsint thier plans when the new laws are passed and the go-ahead for making lots of money out of the changes in law can finally proceed and bring world "happiness".

eg Think about The Sixth Day which was about cloning and the "science experiment gone wrong" story. We all know at the time that was made so biotech companies wanted to introduce these technologies to a future generation who found cloning acceptable. There money to be made. It's just a case of when. Do you think they care about the fundamentalists' spiritual reasons which get in the way of profit? Do they care about a magic entity they can't see called a "soul"? No way! It's a matter of preparing you for something that is going to come whether you want it to happen or not. (with the right connections, timing, and propaganda people will eventually accept their fantasy and give up)

another eg: Enemy of the state. About the controversy surrounding civilians losing privacy because of the need to protect people from terror. OF course this tech would be abused like the "science experiment gone wrong" story we are used to seeing all the time and of course the villains would use it for evil purposes and as usual stuff that might seem helpful can backfire. But the desired effect is by at least exposing us to these controversies at least it is all laid bare on the table for us to talk about and the mind conditioning can begin. Whether you are bothered by it makes no difference because when you oppose it they will be prepared for thier counterargument to your concerns after it is officially introduced in public in future. (eg they manufacture a false news story to appeal to your emotions to get you on thier side) I'm a believer in power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The real future imo will probably be a form of corporations becoming the government.

Edited October 30, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Stamen0083]

...nowhere near the womanizer Roy is...

I think Roy didn't become a womanizer until after Aries' death.

[eNeS]

The fight was the best one i've seen yet :| Nicely angles and music

[KingNor]

This isn't so much to do with macross but this is what I have suspected for a long time: I think partly the goal of a lot of sci-fi is to promote humanism ...

[big ass post]

...in future. (eg they manufacture a false news story to appeal to your emotions to get you on thier side)

seriously man, you gotta stop reading/watching so much fiction. you back up you're world views with examples from movies and sci fi. thats not good.

[azrael]

...nowhere near the womanizer Roy is...

I think Roy didn't become a womanizer until after Aries' death.

Roy has always been a womanizer. But at that moment, he's got his attention on Aries. And whoever said Shin was a womanizer?

[JLYC]

This isn't so much to do with macross but this is what I have suspected for a long time: I think partly the goal of a lot of sci-fi is to promote humanism ...

[big ass post]

...in future. (eg they manufacture a false news story to appeal to your emotions to get you on thier side)

seriously man, you gotta stop reading/watching so much fiction. you back up you're world views with examples from movies and sci fi. thats not good.

lol...maybe for him, life imitates art rather than the other way around

[Backstabber]

It was still an interesting read and obviously Macross has him/her thinking!

[Radd]

...nowhere near the womanizer Roy is...

I think Roy didn't become a womanizer until after Aries' death.

I think the opposite is true.

[twich]

I think that the whole AFOS scene kinda reminded me of the PS game called Parasite Eve The singing and how the AFOS kinda organically grew its wings and stuff.

Having read through the whole of the thread, I agree that this was quite an enjoyable OVA. I didnt think that things were left in the open, as much as some people think. I think that Sara went in search of the Protoculture, and Shin....well kinda hard to say.

The mecha scenes were simply awesome. I loved the action. I cannot wait until the next Macross series/OVA comes out.

Twich

[Aegis!]

What I understood of M0 is this:

. At least Sara and Mao were direct descendants of the protoculture.

. After being used to engineer human life on Earth the AFOS was left there to oversee

the human experiment and collect information on whether it was a success or a failure ( se the conversation between Hasford or Aries ).

.The VF-0 was a testbead for future fighters afterall (the VF-1 was never available since it was still under production and the VF-0 kept showing new add-ons so it´s safe to assume it was a newer/paralel proyect to prolong the VF development before the Zentradis came or the unification wars extended in the future )

. Shin showed the same ability as Sara when they sang in the forest so Mao´s comments make sense somehow , why ? maybe it only had to do with Shin opening his heart , that would mean all humans are designed with that ability ( would be natural since we were engineered by the protoculture to surpass Zentradis and protodevilns by having emotions )

. The UN and Anti-UN were just as bad as the other , no surprise they kept the events screts for 50 years.

. Mao knowingly activated the AFOS to proyect what was happening inside the Anti-Un sub so it´s not surprising she was able to project herself inside Shin´s VF-0 by using the AFOS artifact.

. The floating carriers were explained within the OVA ( I kinda had a flashback to Macross Plus when the Macross started to levitate and the same kind of engines shown in the Asuka were show being activated ...or was it the TV series , don´t remember )

. When looking at the events on M0 and those in the TV series it kinda comes to my mind that none of them are really a coincidence , the fall of the ASS-1 on earth , the the PCS signal of the AFOS and the coming of the Zentradi to this exact spot of the galaxy .... it seems to me that the protoculture kinda plannned all this beforehand as to produce and encounter between the Zentradis and the humans , though . after the veredict made by the AFOS it seems we weren´t exactly a good influence to the Zentrans so maybe it couldn´t deliver its observations to the remaining protoculture so the meeting happened anyway.

[ewilen]

Unlike the rest of humanity that was evolved from simian life, the Mayan islanders were evolved from Fish.

Or so as their myth says....

...

I actually thought the Mayan people were decendants of fish AS WELL AS the rest of humanity.

Yeah, I think the bird/fish myth is more of an allegory. Either it's about evolution in general (fish -> amphibians -> reptiles -> mammals & birds) or it's about a sea-based culture that encounters visitors from the sky. It reminded me a little of a Vietnamese myth about a dragon from the water (Lac Long Quan) marrying a fire/sky/mountain fairy (Au Co); she gives birth to a bunch of children who are the ancestors of the Vietnamese people. I interpret this as a vague memory of the mixing of a sea/shore-based culture with an inland culture (probably Chinese, or ethnic Vietnamese coming from China). (Here's one reference.)

[Noyhauser]

I might have had a good reply for low viz lurker's post, had it not been 2 pages long, and coherent in its thoughts. As is, its as impenetrable a post as I have ever seen.

[ewilen]

.The VF-0 was a testbead for future fighters afterall (the VF-1 was never available since it was still under production and the VF-0 kept showing new add-ons so it´s safe to assume it was a newer/paralel proyect to prolong the VF development before the Zentradis came or the unification wars extended in the future )

I still don't think so. Have you read Nanashi's translation of the notes on the VF-0 Ghost booster? (Link here.)

The development of the augmentative armament package for the VF-0 series were developed mainly by Shinnakasu Industry. However, it wasn’t completed before Anti-“Bird-Man” combat. For this reason, the maintenance crew onboard the warship  Asuka fabricated it with the extra parts they had; later it was called the VF-0 “Raid” or “Angel” version because of the resulting appearance. An S-Type and an A-Type, one of each were converted to this specification. Even the additional armament package manufactured by Shinnakasu Industry was just test equipment for the VF-1 and only a few sets and few configurations were made. (Conformal missile/fuel tanks installed at both engine nacelles are part of the augmentative armament “Super Pack” and other parts were not completed yet.) Also, this Ghost Booster specification was only used once during the battle over the Mayan Islands.

It sounds like the bulk of the add-ons were prototypes for the VF-1 Super, although the use of a gutted QF-2000 Ghost may be more of a field improvisation.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

seriously man, you gotta stop reading/watching so much fiction. you back up you're world views with examples from movies and sci fi. thats not good.

hah you got that right, and that's partially my point: movies and works of fiction are a powrful medium that can influence people's decisions in real life. Wag the Dog, Farenheit 911, POTC. It's almost a secret conditioning agent when emotions are concerned and people ignore the fact that the characters are not real (or not portrayed realistically) and the stereotypes of groups presented, are stretching the truth. In some instances it may not matter if the characters or events were real or ever happened the way they did onscreen. There can still be great truths within the fiction. I love the God father trilogy for example, it's like being a fly on the wall.

A movie like Braveheart is a great piece of entertainment but is it factually true? Nope. Do people know any better to care? probably not. That's what creators are hoping for. Fictional example of obvious stereotype: final fantasy the spirits within. Characters right out of a cookie cutter videogame. The big tough guy, the ballsy feminist, the the skinny tech geek, the two leads who will eventually fall in love. And the left wing preachiness of environmental destruction because of ignorant men who don't believe in fairy tales to care about mother earth. (play lots of japanese rpgs to know what I mean) Right away you could sense who the bad guys were going to be from the start and who the good guys were and who you knew was going to die based on how one-sided and mean-spirited they were in the movie. Little kids might thnk it were original but the rest could notice patterns and behaviours from other movies, rpgs, comics and other pulp fiction.

If a story is too obvious and preachy but doesn't offer a good resolution it can be a turn-off to some people. Like "what's the point of watching this?" If we are the bad guys for wanting to protect ourselves from alien ghosts/alien giants who are stronger than us, why should we be all loving and peacful and give up our resistance? They're monsters! Who cares about thier feelings. What about all the people that got eaten? This ain't just revenge, its killing to survive. (this is what I would be thinking if I were attacked. Like if I were stranded in a jungle with dangerous animals which want to eat me, and I have a gun and some animal right's activist tells me to be nice and not harm them; preaching about how we must respect the dangerous monster that is trying to kill you.) Both sides need to be represented realistically instead of pushing political views down our throats. This only makes the story more appealing because it is more grounded and convincing with substance and a good conclusion, rather than formulaic and stereotypical. Although I don't hold it against macross. I was just playing devil's advocate, because I thought the original series had the best characters and good detail into thier personal lives.

Edited October 31, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[AlphaHX]

seriously man, you gotta stop reading/watching so much fiction. you back up you're world views with examples from movies and sci fi. thats not good.

hah you got that right, and that's partially my point: movies and works of fiction are a powrful medium that can influence people's decisions in real life. Wag the dog, Farenheit 911, POTC. It's almost a secret conditioning agent when emotions are concerned and people ignore the fact that the characters are not real (or not portrayed realistically) and the stereotypes of groups presented, untrue. In some instances it may not matter if the characters or events were real or ever happen the way they did onscreen. I love the God father trilogy.

A movie like Braveheart is a great piece of entertainment but is it factually true? Nope. Do people know any better to care? probably not. That's what creators are hoping for. Fictional example of stereotype: final fantasy the spirits within. Characters right out of a cookie cutter videogame. The big tough guy, the ballsy feminist, the the skinny tech geek, the two leads who will eventually fall in love. And the left wing preachiness of environmental destruction because of ignorant men who don't believe in fairy tales. (play lots of japanese rpgs to know what I mean) Right away you could sense who the bad guys were going to be from the start and who the good guys were and who you knew was going to die based on how one-sided and mean they were in the movie. If a story is too obvious and preachy but doesn't offer a good resolution it can be a turn-off to some people. Like "what's the point of watching this?" If we are the bad guys for wanting to protect ourselves from alien ghosts/alien giants who are stronger than us, why should we be all loving and peacful and give up our resistance? They're monsters! Who cares about thier feelings.

you take games and movies too seriously.

good luck... with... uhh... nevermind.

just... umm... yeah... good luck.

[KingNor]

seriously man, you gotta stop reading/watching so much fiction. you back up you're world views with examples from movies and sci fi. thats not good.

hah you got that right, and that's partially my point: movies and works of fiction are a powrful medium that can influence people's decisions in real life. Wag the dog, Farenheit 911, POTC. It's almost a secret conditioning agent when emotions are concerned and people ignore the fact that the characters are not real (or not portrayed realistically) and the stereotypes of groups presented, untrue. In some instances it may not matter if the characters or events were real or ever happen the way they did onscreen. I love the God father trilogy.

A movie like Braveheart is a great piece of entertainment but is it factually true? Nope. Do people know any better to care? probably not. That's what creators are hoping for. Fictional example of stereotype: final fantasy the spirits within. Characters right out of a cookie cutter videogame. The big tough guy, the ballsy feminist, the the skinny tech geek, the two leads who will eventually fall in love. And the left wing preachiness of environmental destruction because of ignorant men who don't believe in fairy tales. (play lots of japanese rpgs to know what I mean) Right away you could sense who the bad guys were going to be from the start and who the good guys were and who you knew was going to die based on how one-sided and mean they were in the movie. If a story is too obvious and preachy but doesn't offer a good resolution it can be a turn-off to some people. Like "what's the point of watching this?" If we are the bad guys for wanting to protect ourselves from alien ghosts/alien giants who are stronger than us, why should we be all loving and peacful and give up our resistance? They're monsters! Who cares about thier feelings.

you take games and movies too seriously.

good luck... with... uhh... nevermind.

just... umm... yeah... good luck.

no Kidding, chill out. and learn to get to your point faster. most people are going to just skip right over your mile long posts if you keep it up

and if you ARE going to write something that long, use some literary planning and make it make sence. you're all over the place in most of your posts.

Edited October 31, 2004 by KingNor

[RichterX]

no Kidding, chill out. and learn to get to your point faster. most people are going to just skip right over your mile long posts if you keep it up

and if you ARE going to write something that long, use some literary planning and make it make sence. you're all over the place in most of your posts.

I just read like the first paragraph of the those short essays, probably they have some good points and interesting information on them it is just too long reading post

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Gist of these long posts:

first point:

Humanism says love rules everything and we are all equal. It stops wars. I say: It's romantic, but not going to save your life, and it stomps all over people's religious beliefs just to satisfy a political view. Some people have problems accepting that belief because they want

an ending in a story to have substance. Love is not going to stop wars.

I took too long to say it in a paragraph though. I wanted to say that mankind can't aspire to be perfect when his method to bring peace is through violence, so we are all imperfect hypocrits. What makes "loving everyone" convince us this will end violence when even people who can express love are also able to express hate and be violent? In fact our imperfection make us human. UN in real life pretends to respect diversity only on the surface when in fact they want to unite and destroy individual cultures under dogmatic laws they must abide by that nobody in thier own land cares about. One example of this is the "rights of the child". Do parents really want thier kids to be treated as equal as adults when they are innocent kids who are not ready to be thrown into the real world at an early age? This is controversial because it takes away controls the family had over thier own children and puts it into the hands of a global goverment who can make and enforce rules nobody agrees with. Equality is an illusion. We are unique but not equal.

second: This is off topic

it is my belief that some scifi can be used as a conditioning agent to test people's reaction to controversial topics that will inevitably be brought into debate into the future. They will create movie first, portray both sides in a neutral light, but the goal is to get the reactions of the people. Then when people start talking they can prepare pre-planned counter-arguments to any opposition to thier agenda for going ahead with some new technology (eg experiments in genetics) or introducing some new law. (banning weapons, which is against the nations best interests) This is a general conspiracy theory amoungst the paranoid folk. Wag the dog and F911 are examples of trying to condition you to accept the creators opinions of those films and change your existing beliefs, question your long held fear or just test your reactions.

Just in sumary of the first point: many sci fi movies have love as this hidden magic ingredient to solve the problems or war and suffering. The fifth element had it. The matrix had it. Blade Runner had it. Macross has. This is why I am coming to this conclusion that maybe humanistic ideas (tolerance for differences even when those differences are forced upon you) are flawed. People will always fight and there is no long term solution that will end all war. Not even love lasts forever.

Edited October 31, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[RichterX]

Gist of these long posts:

first point:

Humanism says love rules everything. It stops wars. It's romantic, but not going to save your life. Some people have problems accepting that belief because they want an ending in a story to have substance. I took too long to say it in a paragraph though. I wanted to say that mankind can't aspire to be perfect when his method to bring peace is through violence, so we are all imperfect hypocrits. (what makes "loving everyone" convince us this will end violence when even people who can express love are also able to express hate and be violent?)

second: This is off topic

it is my belief that some scifi can be used as a conditioning agent to test people's reaction to controversial topics that will invitably be brought into debate into the future. They will create movie first, portray both sides in a neutral light, but the goal is to get the reactions of the people. Then when people start talking they can prepare pre-planned counter-arguments to any opposition to thier agenda for going ahead with some new technology or introducing some new law. This is a general conspiracy theory amoungst the paranoid folk. Wag the dog and F911 are examples of trying to condition you to accept the creator of those films belief or just test your reactions.

Humanist or hippies?

I believe on solving things by diplomacy at first, but when no solution is option and their is a present danger just blast the heck out of the opposing faction...

Nothing ends or will ever be perfect, even in Macross after the wars are over there are fights, renegades groups, terrorist or aliens that want to blast the UN SPACY.

There will be always corruption of some sort in any organization, it is when the things seem to go alright that we have to worry.

[azrael]

It sounds like the bulk of the add-ons were prototypes for the VF-1 Super, although the use of a gutted QF-2000 Ghost may be more of a field improvisation.

Actually, it sounds like the whole system was a field improvision than a prototype. The flight crew basically strapped all of these options on in a matter of hours. They needed a booster so they strapped on a light-weight Ghost (slightly lighter without most of the computers on it). The missile pods were extra weapon systems they were testing and they needed more missiles than the FAST packs could carry so they attached those as well. It may appear conceptually that this specification is what led to the VF-1's FAST packs but in this instance, this sounds more like a field improvision. I truly doubt this was a prototype system.

[ewilen]

Okay, the bulk of it is field improvisation, but

Even the additional armament package manufactured by Shinnakasu Industry was just test equipment for the VF-1 and only a few sets and few configurations were made. (Conformal missile/fuel tanks installed at both engine nacelles are part of the augmentative armament “Super Pack” and other parts were not completed yet.)

The conformal packs on the legs were the only part of the "additional armament package manufactured by Shinnikasu" which was ready. This package was a prototype for the VF-1. The other stuff was field improvisation. Contrary to what Aegis has said, none of it was prototype for variable fighters after the VF-1.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Richter:

Yeah the real thing I wanted to get to though is that sometimes scifi over-romanticises what is in reality the death of individual culture and national sovereignity. There is no more respect left for that which is supernatural when tehcnology adds convenience. Just because a culture seems more primitive and less technological it must then be cruel and barbaric. "Oh those poor natives living in such third world conditions who need our help" (in real life those people are probably secretly being armed with machine guns by the good guys who manufacture them )

My own unique interpretation of Macross Zero was that cultures die and get replaced by less individualistic ones (world goverment) that used thier asumptions about "right or wrong" and imposed it on others for purely political reasons. (under 1 rule the world can be controlled more easily. Read the orwell's "1984" to see how close fiction can be to reality. The white people were being accused of taking that culture away and replacing it with thier own, which wasn't necessarily welcomed with open arms by Sara.) But of course it is inevitable when you think about it. All men are kind of guilty of using thier superior tech to gain control of others. It's a common thing. We love to hear about the good things that are in man (like our universal ability to love each other that is common to all people) but we forget we can also hate as well as love.

My guess is the original poster who criticicised the "love cures everything" theme, was saying that maybe it wasn't deep enough, which I can agree with because maybe it is shallow after they preached it in the original series. (this remind me of all the criticism of the third matrix movie: most people wanted the hero to kick ass not be "a new jesus" where the audience was preached to. People don't like symbolism or spiritual victories that suggest the hero is weak, they want violence and climactic battles like the first movie. Personally I don't understand this because in star wars obi wan practically allows darth vader to kill him and nobody cared, yet the matrix isn't allowed to have the hero die?)

Edited October 31, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

The conformal packs on the legs were the only part of the "additional armament package manufactured by Shinnikasu" which was ready.

But those were FAST packs. They're on practically every VF we've seen so I would hardly call them those things VF-1 prototypes.

[RichterX]

The conformal packs on the legs were the only part of the "additional armament package manufactured by Shinnikasu" which was ready.

But those were FAST packs. They're on practically every VF we've seen so I would hardly call them those things VF-1 prototypes.

The dorsal Fast Packs work just like the external fuel tanks of any fighter just are design slimer to enable the transformation without the need to eject them.

[ewilen]

We must be talking at cross purposes or not understanding each other. I'm trying to say that the leg fastpacks of the VF-0 were prototypes of the leg fastpacks of the VF-1. Isn't that what Nanashi's translation says? Aegis on the other hand is claiming that all the "stuff" on the VF-0's in the final episode somehow shows that the VF-0 was designed to test or prototype technology that was intended for VF's AFTER the VF-1. My reply is that whatever we see on the VF-0 is either a prototype of a system that was later used on the VF-1 (leg FAST pack components, GBP) or a field mod.

Again, note "was just test equipment for the VF-1..."

[Keith]

Actually you made my point here as well but on the oposite side of the coin. Why does it have to be transforming jets in every series. This is the repetitiveness I speak of. I would like to see Macross take on a completely new role mecha and character wise. Often fans have remarked the mecha was a backdrop to the real story so why does the same backdrop have to be there. Then again this is Macross's moneymaker and I can watch a different anime for that I guess. I'm not saying I hated it all.. just don't feel as amazed as I used to be with Macross.

Why would there be a Macross series without these themes, or transforming mecha for that matter. If you're looking for a Macross series that doesn't contain those elements, then why not watch something else? The nature of a storyline/franchise is to maintain a constant set of elements, and Macross has alwasy done it well while still keeping things fresh.

[azrael]

We must be talking at cross purposes or not understanding each other.

I think we're just misunderstanding each other....

I'm trying to say that the leg fastpacks of the VF-0 were prototypes of the leg fastpacks of the VF-1.

Conceptually, yes. Practically, no.

Aegis on the other hand is claiming that all the "stuff" on the VF-0's in the final episode somehow shows that the VF-0 was designed to test or prototype technology that was intended for VF's AFTER the VF-1.

That would sort of fall under the catagory of no. The missile pods that they mounted on could be used by any later VF but those are just weapon systems, which any VF or normal fighter could probably use. So that would fall under no. The Ghost booster was definitely a no.

My reply is that whatever we see on the VF-0 is either a prototype of a system that was later used on the VF-1 (leg FAST pack components, GBP) or a field mod.

....Yeah I could agree with that.

Again, note "was just test equipment for the VF-1..."

I would seriously doubt that. Test equipment for a VF-0, concept for a VF-1.

[ewilen]

Okay, I sometimes forget that "prototype" isn't the same thing as testbed or concept. Clearly, the leg armor from a VF-0 wouldn't fit a VF-1. I take Nanashi's text to mean that the leg armor was part of a FASTpack design which was intended to test the concept for use on the VF-1. And in general, everything points the VF-0 and associated equipment being part of the experimental/test program leading up to the VF-1, not a parallel program intended to develop technologies for the VF-1's successors.

This may seem trivial, but it goes back to a longstanding debate on the nature of the VF-0, in which Aegis and I were the main protagonists (or, occasionally, antagonists).

[KingNor]

i have kinda a noob question...

i always thought that the valks in SDF/DYRL got fast packs because the initial design was proving to be too slow.

now in mac-zero it seems that UN SPACEY was planning all along to always have valks, and then super valks.

why not after the initial mac-zero design didn't they just incorporate the fast packs into the design of the vf-1?

why do this:

vf-0

SUPER vf-0

vf-1

SUPER vf-1

i'm just a little confused by the chronology of the fast packs.

even the vf-19 and on had standard and fast pack versions.

what is the reason?

[Macross_Fanboy]

More firepower. FAST Packs aren't a new concept in Macross Zero and SDF Macross and beyond because F-15Cs use them and F-15Es mount conformal fuel tanks which enable a larger load of munitions.

[KingNor]

More firepower. FAST Packs aren't a new concept in Macross Zero and SDF Macross and beyond because F-15Cs use them and F-15Es mount conformal fuel tanks which enable a larger load of munitions.

f-15s have real fast packs? like.. booster packs to make them go faster?

extra fuel tanks i understand. because they're jetisoned and just help fuel the regular engines.

just seems odd that at the end of mac-0 they knew the valks needed more horsepower but built them without fast packs anyway, then later added them.

then built the vf-19, knowing it needed fast packs, then added them later

thats odd to me. it must just have been done for asthetics.

[Noyhauser]

well I can see perfectly valid technical reasons.

Most Fast Packs are designed for space use, where the design requirements for vehicles are quite different than for atmospheric vehicles. They Allowed fighters to carry more weapons, additional reaction mass (something that Valks were not designed to carry very much of) ect. Remember the VF-1s were first and foremost designed as atmospheric fighters (why build wings at all if you don't plan to fly in the atmosphere). Fast packs just make them more effective space fighters.

As for the VF-19's atmospheric fastpacks, these are designed to allow the fighters to carry more weaponry, without having to deal with the problem of decrease in perfomance. Instead of having wings loaded with massive ammounts of missiles, that just sit there until launch, these fast packs counteract some of the drag by providing more thrust. this is likely at the expense of manuverability, which is a trade off that a pilot must chose between.

The VF-0's fast packs probably existed for a differentreason. Since it was a prototype of a fighter that was supposed to have a far more power engine (well the same power, half the volume of the VF-0's EGF conventional engine), while the airframe was half the volume as well, the VF-0 was likely thought to be underpowered. Given the time constraints in its construction, the VF-0 deficiencies were appareant and therefore in the absence of a major redesign, or a new engine (which was unlikely, since it seems that the EGF engine was the last conventional engine, before Thermonuclear were deployed), rockets were bolted on in order to increase its emergency thrust.

(edited for typos and clarity)

Edited October 31, 2004 by Noyhauser

[KingNor]

well I can see perfectly valid technical reasons.

Most Fast Packs are designed for space use, where the design requirements for vehicles are quite different than for atmospheric vehicles. They Allowed fighters to carry more weapons, additional reaction mass (something that Valks were not designed to carry very much of) ect. Remember the VF-1s were first and foremost designed as atmospheric fighters (why build wings at all if you don't plan to fly in the atmosphere). Fast packs just make them more effective space fighters.

As for the VF-19's atmospheric fastpacks, these are designed to allow the fighters to carry more weaponry, without having to deal with the problem of decrease in perfomance. Instead of having wings loaded with massive ammounts of missiles, that just sit there until launch, these fast packs counteract some of the drag by providing more thrust. this is likely at the expense of manuverability, which is a trade off that a pilot must chose between.

The VF-0's fast packs probably existed for a differentreason. Since it was a prototype of a fighter that was supposed to have a far more power engine (well the same power, but its volume was have the size of the VF-0's EGF conventional engine), and was smaller at the same time, the VF-0 was thought to be underpowered. Given the time constraints in its construction, the VF-0 deficiencies were appareant and therefore in the absence of a major redesign, or a new engine (which was unlikely, since it seems that the EGF engine was the last conventional engine, before Thermonuclear were deployed), rockets were bolted on in order to increase its power.

i hadn't considered space flight/atmosphere flight. good point.

[ewilen]

Actually, I don't think the VF-0's FP were designed to compensate for any deficiency of the VF-0 per se. Instead they were intended to test the idea of FP for the VF-1, where (as Noyhauser argues) the space vs. atmospheric requirements are different.

Note that the Ghost booster of the VF-0 is not a fast pack--it's a field modification which is used in conjunction with the only part of the VF-0 FP which was ready at the time.

Unless and until an official explanation appears, I would guess that the VF-1 FP wasn't ready for production at the time of SDF Macross episode 1 but was completed in the course of the series. Oddly, it first shows up on Hikaru's Skull-1, which means that either some units were moved aboard shortly after the SDF-1 returned to Earth (even though the UN Spacy was keeping SDF-1 at arms' length at the time), or that the design was finalized on SDF-1 and put into production there. Or possibly it was completed on Earth and the plans were sent to the Macross's onboard factory.

It's likewise possible that the GBP-1S design was only finalized and put into production sometime after "Booby Trap".

If you favor DYRL continuity, though, you can just say that the FP were always employed on VF-1's when in space.