MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[treatment]

Think Shoji will a pull a Plus and produce a movie-version of Zero?

I think he shouldn't because ep-5 is just a fscking phenomenal climax/final-episode unlike Plus-ova.

[Agent ONE]

Think Shoji will a pull a Plus and produce a movie-version of Zero?

I think he shouldn't because ep-5 is just a fscking phenomenal climax/final-episode unlike Plus-ova.

I think its a certanty... Movie versions of OVAs are an easy way to make some $$$ with out spending much.

[ewilen]

Various replies:

1/1 Lowviz Lurker: good points but as others have said, what we see in DYRL doesn't require quite as long a relationship between Hikaru and Roy. And again, I think that if Roy is responsible for bringing Hikaru into the military (and remember in SDF he tried even before the Zentradi attack), he ought to have mentioned the weird poo he just saw at Mayan.

RichterX: I'm not going to do a leap of logic and tell you that Macross Zero was always how Kawamori planned things back when he wrote DYRL. I'm just saying that MZero fits with DYRL better in various ways, mainly because the DYRL continuity is far less detailed, leaving more room for MZero.

AOne: Yes, under the ocean floor might be a way of explaining why the AFOS was found but the city wasn't. Now that I think about it, both should date from the same time. It's a little tricky figuring out why the PC would put the city there (which looks like a colony) as well as the AFOS. Hmm...maybe they left the AFOS when they abandoned the city.

KingNor: Roy is already drinking a lot in MZero. And he doesn't have a drinking problem. He drinks just fine.

[Jawjaw]

I, too, am like 'wtf' after watching the raw. I can already tell I am not liking the ending. Overall, the final episode lacks visual punch. I expected much more in the final showdown than that. Then that Monster seemed thrown in for no reason. Oh well, anime rarely ends well, especially short ones like M0.

[Myriad]

I just watched the fansub. The last ep, just like the rest of the series, was not my cup of tea. Had Macross not been in the title, I would have not watched any eps after the first. I will watch the Original, Plus and pretend the rest has never happened.

I am sticking with the earlier theory......

[Panon]

1) Roy's relationship with Claudia in SDF-M, as depicted in "A Rainy Night", is hard to reconcile with his relationship with Aries.

I don't see where the conflict was. The relationships with Aries and Claudia were during two very different time periods, the one with Aries being much earlier and being over by the time Claudia came into the picture.

[azrael]

Well, now that a subbed version is out (and one I can 90% agree with), A1's comments pretty much nailed it. Protoculture left AFOS as the final lesson. Protoculture made its mistakes when it created the Zentradi/Meltrandi, and eventually the beings that would become the Protodevlin. The "lesson" from AFOS could be what was suppose to have been passed on the the Zentradi and later, the Protodevlin. But since Protoculture was being wiped out, they couldn't teach that lesson to their creations, so that responsiblity fell on humanity's shoulders. If you look at it this way, Zero does an excellent job of bridging SDFM/DYRL? and 7 together (Plus is the oddball, considering it doesn't add to the Macross story). It would be humanity's responsibility to "correct the mistakes" of Protoculture (i.e. the Zentradi and Protodevlin).

I don't see where the conflict was. The relationships with Aries and Claudia were during two very different time periods, the one with Aries being much earlier and being over by the time Claudia came into the picture.

There was no conflict. Roy met Aries in college. He ran off to fight. She stayed behind. Roy then met Claudia. When they were seperated, you could say Aries got her second chance. When she died, she gave Roy a lesson. When Roy was reunited with Claudia, Roy got his second chance, and this time he choose to stay.

[Keith]

The relationship between Roy & Aries started in college (or the academy, I can't quite tell from the HK subs), then they flaked on each other as Aries when to go research with Hasford. Roy going into the military met Claudia, who found him too womanizing to date at first. Now assuming the rainy night episode takes place before Zero, while Roy confided in Claudia, they still hadn't gotten together, which leaves him free to chase after Aries during the Zero incident. And perhaps after losing Aries, he was ready to settle down with Claudia once being stationed at South Atalia. A perfectly reasonable series of events which fits the continuity.

I personally think Zero re-inforces Roy's attitudes during the TV series. He wasn't even remotely freaked out when seeing the Zentradi soldier stumble out of his Regult (and hell, was probably relieved since it didn't look freaky like the AFOS). And he sure as hell couldn't tell Hikaru about a clasisfied event, it would have held risk of court maritial or worse. Since Hikaru already saw a giant Zentradi corpse, what more would he have to know?

And then of course there's the U.N. Spacy's unwillingness to negotiate. Having encountered the AFOS which ripped their fleet a new one with ease, and then left, perhaps they construed it as a cultural gesture. Blast the poo out of your enemy, then pull back. So naturally, they made an even bigger gun (Grand Cannon).

Need I bring up the whole thing about Britia & Bodolza freaking out over Kaifun's movie, and the powers shown by the barrier explosion & AFOS? Zero fits in very nciely with the TV series.

[Achilles2ca]

Oh Gosh its so bad.

You know what I liked about Macross?

The Jets and the people and the way it's not pretentious shite like Evangelion.

Wait a sec...

As if the episode wasn't enough, the jet that tuns into a a bird?

Oh Gosh, its so bad.

This is one I won't be telling people about.

[goldenboy_forever]

Yeah the plane turns into a flying fish at the end hahaha

[wolfx]

Just saw it and omg......after reading all the "assumptions" from a few months back....some of you guys were spot on...everything from Shin "leaving" to the AFOS "humanity test" shite.

Ok I'm gonna backpedal this thread and find out what i missed on the monster's claw.....

[Radd]

It was certainly rushed, and it felt like it throughout the entire episode. Simply far too much was being squeezed into a single episode. The CG in this episode is a lot worse than any of the others, especially the Bird Human. Other than that, though, I rather liked it. I've certainly seen far worse endings.

[Agent ONE]

...A1's comments pretty much nailed it. Protoculture left AFOS as the final lesson. Protoculture made its mistakes when it created the Zentradi/Meltrandi, and eventually the beings that would become the Protodevlin. The "lesson" from AFOS could be what was suppose to have been passed on the the Zentradi and later, the Protodevlin. But since Protoculture was being wiped out, they couldn't teach that lesson to their creations, so that responsiblity fell on humanity's shoulders. If you look at it this way, Zero does an excellent job of bridging SDFM/DYRL? and 7 together (Plus is the oddball, considering it doesn't add to the Macross story). It would be humanity's responsibility to "correct the mistakes" of Protoculture (i.e. the Zentradi and Protodevlin).

...

I think you and I are the only ones that get it. The genius of Zero really blows me away though.

[Aegis!]

AWESOME !

I finnaly got to watch the subbed version just now and it makes a hell lot of more sense than guessing what they say.

Now that I could understand what Shin explained in the begining of the episode I actually feel satisfied , I now see that there was no reason to waste valuable time explaining something that turned out to be somewhat irrelevant for the story.

The role of the UN spacy and the Anti-UN are fledged out more gracefully. After watching it for the 3rd time I kinda feel good about how M0 is able to limit itself to its own story.

Also , the scene with the AFOS activating the reactors and levitating the Asuka actually makes sense with the subs , and the subtle reference to the Zentradi invation by Hasford is nice ¨the world being burn to ashes¨

All in all I´ll give M0 a 8.8/10 , I think the greatest merit about it is that it unfies more closely all of the other Macross series ( with the exception of M+ which doesn´t really add much to the universe) , the references to the protoculture in the TV series are now more understandable ( the reaction of the Zentradis to humans ) and M7 critical data (forget the story , just focus on the informaton given)

[treatment]

AWESOME !

I finnaly got to watch the subbed version just now and it makes a hell lot of more sense than guessing what they say.

Now that I could understand what Shin explained in the begining of the episode I actually feel satisfied , I now see that there was no reason to waste valuable time explaining something that turned out to be somewhat  irrelevant  for the story.

The role of the UN spacy and the Anti-UN are fledged out  more gracefully. After watching it for the 3rd time I kinda feel good about how M0 is able to limit itself to its own story.

Also , the scene with the AFOS activating the reactors and levitating the Asuka actually makes sense with the subs , and the subtle reference to the Zentradi invation by Hasford is nice ¨the world being burn to ashes¨

All in all I´ll give M0 a 8.8/10  , I think the greatest merit about it is that it unfies more closely all of the other Macross series ( with the exception of M+ which doesn´t really add much to the universe) , the references to the protoculture in the TV series are now more understandable ( the reaction of the Zentradis to humans ) and M7 critical data (forget the story , just focus on the informaton given)

Actually, Zero encompasses alot more Macross Plus directly than TV/DYRL or M7.

Sharon Apple taking over the Macross was the human-made reincarnation of both the AFOS and Sara. Myung's emotions were the trigger for Sharon, like Sara's emotions were the trigger of the AFOS. You can also make a leap of fate that Sharon was the bad human-experiment directly equivalent to the Protoculture's bad experiment of the Evil/Protodevlins.

Shin going up against the Sara-AFOS in Zero is a direct (tho, more updated) rendition of Isamu vs Sharon-Macross.

M+ just doesn't add the Protoculture-angle specifically like TV/DYRL and M7.

Edited October 28, 2004 by treatment

[Agent ONE]

I'd actually put MZero in front of MPlus. But not as good as SDFM and DYRL.

[Agent ONE]

Jesus I just realized something.....

The Protoculture tested humanity in MZero by leaving the AFOS behind.. This was to ensure that humanity wouldn't make the same mistakes that the Protoculture did, by creating thoughtless emotionless killing machines.

Humanity then tested the Zjentohlauedy and Meltohlauedy in the final battle with Bodolza and Laplamez in DYRL (also in SDFM). Some of both sides turned out NOT to be those mindless thoughtless killing machines so they were spared.

Humanity tested itself in Macross Plus by almost making the same mistakes the Protoculture did. Think about it... Humans were going to created automated AI systems that would kill without thought.... Just like the Zjentohlauedy, just like the Meltohlauedy and just like the Protodevlin.

[treatment]

I'd actually put MZero in front of MPlus.  But not as good as SDFM and DYRL.

imo,

in terms of animation and eye-candy, Zero is way ahead of Plus. that's a given.

in terms of story-presentation, they're pretty much both even. both are engaging OVAs.

in terms of characters, Plus blows Zero away, even with Focker in Zero. Isamu just stomps all over Shin. Guld pretty much equaled both DD and Nora. Myung and Lucy were just better than Sara and Mao. Millard's better acted than Nutuk, tho Nutuk is funnier. Edgar is alot more acceptable than Yang.

edit:

I also like to add that even tho I like Zero's music, the music in Plus is still far superior over than what were in Zero. Just can't beat Pulse, man.

Edited October 28, 2004 by treatment

[RichterX]

Jesus I just realized something.....

The Protoculture tested humanity in MZero by leaving the AFOS behind.. This was to ensure that humanity wouldn't make the same mistakes that the Protoculture did, by creating thoughtless emotionless killing machines.

Humanity then tested the Zjentohlauedy and Meltohlauedy in the final battle with Bodolza and Laplamez in DYRL (also in SDFM). Some of both sides turned out NOT to be those mindless thoughtless killing machines so they were spared.

Humanity tested itself in Macross Plus by almost making the same mistakes the Protoculture did. Think about it... Humans were going to created automated AI systems that would kill without thought.... Just like the Zjentohlauedy, just like the Meltohlauedy and just like the Protodevlin.

Very interesting point A1, I guess it goes to the whole point that war is wrong and that humanity has to fight not because they like it, but because they have to. It reminds me of the episode Satan's Dolls of Macross TV.

I have to rewatch the whole five M0 episodes once I finish downloading the fansub episode 5 and have sometime.

I hope next Macross aproach is not so weird and influenced by the wacky tabacky...

I would like to see a New Macross immigration colony like Macross 7 but with a Macross TV/ DYRL? story type and the bad guys to be either high tech renegade Zentradi or Supervision Army.

[AlphaHX]

I'd actually put MZero in front of MPlus.  But not as good as SDFM and DYRL.

imo,

in terms of animation and eye-candy, Zero is way ahead of Plus. that's a given.

in terms of story-presentation, they're pretty much both even. both are engaging OVAs.

in terms of characters, Plus blows Zero away, even with Focker in Zero. Isamu just stomps all over Shin. Guld pretty much equaled both DD and Nora. Myung and Lucy were just better than Sara and Mao. Millard's better acted than Nutuk, tho Nutuk is funnier. Edgar is alot more acceptable than Yang.

edit:

I also like to add that even tho I like Zero's music, the music in Plus is still far superior over than what were in Zero. Just can't beat Pulse, man.

ditto. im still a mac plus person myself.

mzero was good tho. hope to see more new macross soon.

[ewilen]

Okay, everyone seems to disagree with me about the Claudia-Roy-Aries issue. M0 is supposed to take place in September, 2008. Relying on this to refresh my memory of episode 33, I see that Claudia and Roy got together for good while he was working on the VF-X1 project on South Ataria Island. The current official timeline has episode 1 of SDF Macross in February, 2009. (The date's been moved around--previously, Studio Nue had it in July or October of 2009.)

So Aries dies in September, Roy goes back to working on the Valkyrie project, and sometime in the next 5-6 months, he gets back together with Claudia and they appear to be pretty solid. That's plausible, I suppose, although a little rushed. Also note that the VF-1 had already been officially adopted by the end of 2007 according to the official timeline, but according to "A Rainy Night", Roy is supposed to be working on the VF-X1 when he meets Claudia. (The reason the VF-1 isn't in M0 is because of teething problems with the engines, which is holding up production. But the production design seems to have been "frozen" by this point.)

If you go by the details of the episode and the Compendium, it doesn't quite add up. I'm not opposed to ignoring a few details, though, especially since Kawamori et. al. have revised the timeline as necessary. What I do have trouble with is reconciling the broad view of Roy/Claudia as shown in SDF Macross, and the Roy/Aries relationship in M0. In SDF Macross, we get the impression that all the women in Roy's life, before Claudia, were just flings. So either that's not true, or Roy's just fooling around with Aries. My impression in M0 is that the Roy/Aries subplot is supposed to show two old friends/lovers who get serious when they meet each other again. That doesn't quite jibe with the SDF M portrayal of Claudia as the only woman whom Roy ever took seriously.

Yes, you can rationalize all sorts of things; I'm talking about narrative meaning, not factual deails.

[Agent ONE]

... In SDF Macross, we get the impression that all the women in Roy's life, before Claudia, were just flings. ...

I think all womanizers come off like that. That is what makes them womanizers. Every girl they are with (as well as those observing the relationship) thinks thats they are one and only girl he has ever cared about.

[treatment]

Okay, everyone seems to disagree with me about the Claudia-Roy-Aries issue. M0 is supposed to take place in September, 2008. Relying on this to refresh my memory of episode 33, I see that Claudia and Roy got together for good while he was working on the VF-X1 project on South Ataria Island. The current official timeline has episode 1 of SDF Macross in February, 2009. (The date's been moved around--previously, Studio Nue had it in July or October of 2009.)

So Aries dies in September, Roy goes back to working on the Valkyrie project, and sometime in the next 5-6 months, he gets back together with Claudia and they appear to be pretty solid. That's plausible, I suppose, although a little rushed. Also note that the VF-1 had already been officially adopted by the end of 2007 according to the official timeline, but according to "A Rainy Night", Roy is supposed to be working on the VF-X1 when he meets Claudia. (The reason the VF-1 isn't in M0 is because of teething problems with the engines, which is holding up production. But the production design seems to have been "frozen" by this point.)

If you go by the details of the episode and the Compendium, it doesn't quite add up. I'm not opposed to ignoring a few details, though, especially since Kawamori et. al. have revised the timeline as necessary. What I do have trouble with is reconciling the broad view of Roy/Claudia as shown in SDF Macross, and the Roy/Aries relationship in M0. In SDF Macross, we get the impression that all the women in Roy's life, before Claudia, were just flings. So either that's not true, or Roy's just fooling around with Aries. My impression in M0 is that the Roy/Aries subplot is supposed to show two old friends/lovers who get serious when they meet each other again. That doesn't quite jibe with the SDF M portrayal of Claudia as the only woman whom Roy ever took seriously.

Yes, you can rationalize all sorts of things; I'm talking about narrative meaning, not factual deails.

Ewilen,

You gotta take into account that it was just Claudia's version of the story between Roy and her in SDF-TV. Roy's never-told-version will most likely be different.

A he-said/she-said situation, and only half-true.

I know from personal experiences that my ex-gfs always have had a different accounting and versions of me and my time with them.

[ewilen]

Maybe. But if we accept that, then the Roy/Claudia relationship, with Roy dying and Claudia later giving heart-to-heart advice to Misa, is far less affecting.

For me, it's easier to have Roy meet Claudia "sometime" after M0 and and get together with her prior to the opening of DYRL; the backstory presented in SDF Macross just gets in the way. Or put another way, the M0 stuff with Aries trips up the SDF Macross version.

[treatment]

Maybe. But if we accept that, then the Roy/Claudia relationship, with Roy dying and Claudia later giving heart-to-heart advice to Misa, is far less affecting.

For me, it's easier to have Roy meet Claudia "sometime" after M0 and and get together with her prior to the opening of DYRL; the backstory presented in SDF Macross just gets in the way. Or put another way, the M0 stuff with Aries trips up the SDF Macross version.

The girl-talk shouldn't be less affecting. Claudia was, afterall, just consoling Misa in that TV-episode. Giving her a shoulder and stuff. So to speak.

I don't know much about girl-talk, but I can only safely assume that not everything the girls talk about behind our backs are quite true.

fwiw, I also do feel that Zero matches up with DYRL better than TV and it really should. DYRL is alot more flexible.

It's just that there are things in Zero than can be reconciled with the TV-version. I mean, Zero was classified information afterall.

Edited October 28, 2004 by treatment

[Agent ONE]

Maybe. But if we accept that, then the Roy/Claudia relationship, with Roy dying and Claudia later giving heart-to-heart advice to Misa, is far less affecting.

For me, it's easier to have Roy meet Claudia "sometime" after M0 and and get together with her prior to the opening of DYRL; the backstory presented in SDF Macross just gets in the way. Or put another way, the M0 stuff with Aries trips up the SDF Macross version.

Your wife should be thrilled about the fact that you can't fathom being emotional with 2 women in the same time period, but comming from experience, it is a super easy thing to do.

In fact, when I go through a breakup, my standard operating proceedure is to get laid by some new chick later the same day... It really takes my mind off of things. And yes, I have told Margarita this. (She reads MW so I can't keep any secrets, not that I would anyway.)

This is the same kind of thing that Roy has going on. Claudia isn't around so the next best thing is to find another chick to "hang around with."

[ewilen]

Ewilen,

You gotta take into account that it was just Claudia's version of the story between Roy and her in SDF-TV. Roy's never-told-version will most likely be different.

A he-said/she-said situation, and only half-true.

I know from personal experiences that my ex-gfs always have had a different accounting and versions of me and my time with them.

Yes, that's also reasonable.

You guys are being very postmodern about all this.

There's one view that fiction (if not reality) is about Truth rather than facts. You guys are saying that there's no one version of the truth, even in fiction.

I don't have a problem with that, although sometimes (like in this case), I think it makes the story less satisfying.

[Agent ONE]

Maybe. But if we accept that, then the Roy/Claudia relationship, with Roy dying and Claudia later giving heart-to-heart advice to Misa, is far less affecting.

For me, it's easier to have Roy meet Claudia "sometime" after M0 and and get together with her prior to the opening of DYRL; the backstory presented in SDF Macross just gets in the way. Or put another way, the M0 stuff with Aries trips up the SDF Macross version.

The girl-talk shouldn't be less affecting. Claudia was, afterall, just consoling Misa in that TV-episode. Giving her a shoulder and stuff. So to speak.

I don't know much about girl-talk, but I can only safely assume that not everything the girls talk about behind our backs are quite true.

....

Not to be sexist or anything, but SOME girls have the ability to remember past events the way they want to remember them, not the way they were.

Come on, haven't you guys had some crying gril that you are trying to dump between her blubbering talk about all the great times you had together, and you think... "what the hell is she talking about!!???"

[Myriad]

Not to be sexist or anything, but SOME girls have the ability to remember past events the way they want to remember them, not the way they were.

Come on, haven't you guys had some crying gril that you are trying to dump between her blubbering talk about all the great times you had together, and you think... "what the hell is she talking about!!???"

No girl has ever dumped A1 for some Heinz 57 loving?

[Agent ONE]

Not to be sexist or anything, but SOME girls have the ability to remember past events the way they want to remember them, not the way they were.

Come on, haven't you guys had some crying gril that you are trying to dump between her blubbering talk about all the great times you had together, and you think... "what the hell is she talking about!!???"

No girl has ever dumped A1 for some Heinz 57 loving?

[LinxCrossq]

Hey everyone! I'm new to the forums and this is my first post.

Anyway, I just wanna a few comments after reading 11 pages of posts!

I think Macross Zero did an amazing work bringing together the original series with the later Macross 7 and the spiritia theories. And yeah, the last episode was good, but some of the imagery used (i.e. little floating Mao and flying ships) looks a little out of place but it wasn't really out of content of the story. My only real complain is the music. Am I the only one that felt like Sara wasn’t singing at all but just like moving her mouth while a stereo was playing the song in the background?

Also about the "magic" stuff. I don't see why these "magic" things can't be considered advanced technology. It's just like when a culture meets with a more advanced one, and they start calling "magic" to the things they can't understand.

[ewilen]

Okay, just watched the fansub, and either because of the repitition or because I can understand some of the finer points, I liked it better. There are still some rough points though, most of which Renato has already covered. I'll add: Why does Aries spill the beans about Operation Iconoclasm in front of Sara?

BTW, here's a present for Keith...

A song is not just a vibration in the air. A true song transcends time and space and makes all souls tremble.

[Agent ONE]

Hey everyone! I'm new to the forums and this is my first post.

Anyway, I just wanna a few comments after reading 11 pages of posts!

I think Macross Zero did an amazing work bringing together the original series with the later Macross 7 and the spiritia theories. And yeah, the last episode was good, but some of the imagery used (i.e. little floating Mao and flying ships) looks a little out of place but it wasn't really out of content of the story. My only real complain is the music. Am I the only one that felt like Sara wasn’t singing at all but just like moving her mouth while a stereo was playing the song in the background?

Also about the "magic" stuff. I don't see why these "magic" things can't be considered advanced technology. It's just like when a culture meets with a more advanced one, and they start calling "magic" to the things they can't understand.

Welcome to MW...

Just so you know, I eat an M7 fan every morning for breakfast.

[ewilen]

Welcome to MW,　LinxCrossq.

Magic: IMO, it is indeed clear that all the "magic" in M0, M7, and arguably elsewhere in Macross is really supertechnology and/or natural phenomena that aren't currently explained by human science.

For example, after seeing the fansub, I note that the growth of the AFOS when it comes to life is basically explained by nanotechnology--it takes elements out of the atmosphere in order to build itself to full size.

Personally, as I've said before, I don't mind it very much, but it is indeed a break from SDF Macross, which was fairly conservative with its scientific/technological premises. That is, it had a limited number of science fiction postulates (space warping, fusion power, antigravity, cloning) and they weren't too radical in terms of current science. The ESP, telekinesis, telepathy, spiritia, and sound energy of M0 and M7 are innovations, and they're also more difficult to ground in current science or even scientific speculation.

[Final Vegeta]

Given Operation Iconoclasm it's no wonder Macross Zero's history was kept top secret for fifty years.

Anyway, I do feel Zero 5 was kinda rushed, but now that I think better Kawamori already used that kind of flashback incipit in one episode of Escaflowne and one of Macross 7. I still suspect he run out of time, though.

Since Kawamori made no serious preproduction for Macross Zero there may be some wrong pacing and blending overall, but after having seen the end I think Macross Zero was quite well done.

In a way this is more than the 20th anniversary of Macross, Macross Zero blends Macross 7 and Macross Plus and Escaflowne and Arjuna. It's a celebration of all the anime of Kawamori and then some. Another 20 years for Kawamori!

FV