MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Keith]

Then why are you comparing an American series (Star Wars) with a Japanese one (Macross)?

Amongst many other things, Star Wars borrows heavily from Japanese storytelling.

We're discussing Macross here, let's leave Gundam in the Other Anime forum.

If you don't have an adiquate reply, why bother?

[Prime]

I think the problem is that you're judging things by amero-centric story standards. The fact of the matter is, these concepts are far from alien & japanese series, and in fact, run rather rampant. I've pointed out on various occasions where the foundation for them was in the TV series, and when it comes right down to it, if you think giant robots & genetically engineered aliens that are whoo'd by emotions is hard sci-fi, then you've been diluting yourself all these years.

For me anyway, it isn't the concepts themselves that bother me so much. It is more the extreme transition from the science fiction base of Macross and Plus to M7. But probably more importantly, I really didn't like the implementation (characters, visuals, dialog, etc.) of the series as when as the new "magic" elements. I don't think that is necessarily because I am North American. Maybe I don't like the J-pop because of that, but there are certainly lots of other fantasy-ish stories that I love that are probably just as wierd as M7.

Besides which, going back to the Gundam example, the awareness of Newtypes & Newtype abilities didn't take effect until deep into its run. Amuro was touted as just being a luckily skilled pilot until much later when his Newtype abilities were revealed. Considering the nature of that story specifically, as well as Kawamori & Mikimoto's infatuation with it,  no one should be surprised with the direction the Macross story has taken.

I haven't seen that series so I can't really comment on that.

Amongst many other things, Star Wars borrows heavily from Japanese storytelling.

True. Many times Lucas has mentioned that he borrowed a lot from Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress."

[KingNor]

... if you think giant robots & genetically engineered aliens that are whoo'd by emotions is hard sci-fi, then you've been diluting yourself all these years.

i think the idea that a culture devoid of all emotional and physical contact with other people, besides killing, could be seriously thrown off its rythm by contacting a culture like the Earths is a completely valid model for a sci-fi story.

I think that the idea that "if you sing from the heart you can have special powers" is also a valid model for a sci-fi story, BUT in my opinion its more along the lines of Jem or MyLittlePony.

SDF Macross does NOT lend itself as a good prequil to the zany-ness of Mac7 or MacZero. If you really can't see the VAST diffrences in the Macross universe's portraied in these 3 shows then you are ALSO diluting yourself.

As for Macross Plus. It's the grey area. Yes there seemed to be some magical singing and stuff going on with Sharron Apple but it could all be pretty much atributed to the advanced technology. The hologram in the valk could be explained that the entire cockpit is monitors or holographic emmiters of somekind (the pilot can see through the plane basicly) and sharon as a CGAI simply hacked his plane.

OR you could interpet it that Sharon is a machine that found a way to "sing from the heart" like the M7 guys and was able to do more that way.

Neither one is really explained, but since .. is it shin?.. didn't seem OVERly supprised to see a floating Sharron Apple in his cockpit, he must have known there was some way she was doing it (and that.. like.. he's not going insane or something).

my main point is that, just because a show has stuff like giant robots, doesn't mean that magic singing MUST be accepted by the audience. And vice versa. I mean... i could go on and on about how this stuff works.

Star Wars had both magic and technology, but it DIDNT' have supernatural stuff. like Demons. that would have felt out of place.

Lord of the Rings had magic and supernatural stuff, but very little tech. robots and jets would have felt wrong in LOTR.

Watership Down had bunnies with religion and vast social structure set in a modern day setting with trains and cars. No dragons magic or aliens

Legend had fantasy monsters and Demons, also no machines.

SDF Macross had giant aliens and advance technology, nothing supernatural or magic.

Do you see how the changes made to the original story could be seen as jarring and un-attractive to many people?

Maybe when you watched it you saw the music and though "man, i wish the music played a more pivitol part, to the point that it OVERSHADOWED the technology, what a great message that would send" and thats the way the serise went, but if you TRUELY can't see how people could have watched the original, and been happy with the balance that it showed in its universe, then shame on you for critisizing others for not likeing it the way YOU like it.

[treatment]

SDF Macross had giant aliens and advance technology, nothing supernatural or magic.

Do you see how the changes made to the original story could be seen as jarring and un-attractive to many people?

/me scratches head.

I'm disregarding Keith's way-out-there response and any Macross-7 tie-ins, but I think you're quite wrong in that quoted line above.

SDF-TV has supernatural stuff.

Minmay's singing specifically affecting or softening up the Zentraedi is considered supernatural and un-scientific. It's so obvious.

Turning to Macross-Zero, Sarah's singing and willpower controls the mechanical APHOS. There's nothing magical about it. It's just protoculture-tech presented in basic human mystical shamanic form.

Her singing didn't affect humans, just like Minmay's songs did not affect humans in TV.

So, I really don't know where you guys are getting this "magic" stuff from Macross Zero and why some of you continue to refuse to accept that MZero directly ties-in to TV/DYRL and Plus story and presentation. MZero is a genuine sci-fi story and not a sci-fantasy like M7.

[ewilen]

[spelling flame]It's "deluding", guys.[/spelling flame]

Keith, I wonder what order you originally saw the various Macrosses in?

[ewilen]

Treatment, what's the difference between "supernatural" and "magic" in your definition?

Are psychological warfare, disinformation, and propaganda unscientific and supernatural?

What is the mechanism by which Sara's willpower controls the Aphos? What mechanism allows Sara to see Mao kissing Shin; how does she make flowers bloom and plants grow; what allows Mao to project herself to Shin in the final battle? How does these mechanisms differ from the Sound Energy and Spiritia of M7?

Edited December 2, 2004 by ewilen

[Eaglearcher]

First time poster, been lurking for a while.

Just like to add a thing or two.

I considered the whole Macross thing, be it SDF-Macross, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero, as strictly non-magical.

I like to think of all the singers, spared Sharon Apple, as people with ESP, telekinesis, etc..., with their power coming from genetic engineering.

That's all.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Eaglearcher

[treatment]

Treatment, what's the difference between "supernatural" and "magic" in your definition?

we'll limit this to the Macross franchise presentations/stories.

supernatural -- unexplainable/not-easily-explainable. myth-based or tradition-based or alien-heritage basis. (M-TV, M-Zero).

magic -- trickery. human-manufactured "harnessing energy" from singers. (M7)

Are psychological warfare, disinformation, and propaganda unscientific and supernatural?

What has any of that got to do with what was presented in Macross franchise?

What is the mechanism by which Sara's willpower controls the Aphos?

Her vocals (shamanic training) and blood-heritage. The APHOS will only respond to and controlled by her.

What mechanism allows Sara to see Mao kissing Shin;

Prolly some genuine inate ability courtesy of her protoculture blood-heritage. Same as Mao's sensing APHOS-head imminent capture by the Anti-UN sub.

how does she make flowers bloom and plants grow;

All those flowers and rocks were within the protoculture-ruins and was prolly seeded there before by the protoculture. It can be inferred that protoculture-"blood" was spilled or spread in the sanctuary and Sara affects all those that had been stained or mixed with Protoculture blood or dna or whatever. Recall the "rocks" that floated with Sara's singing were "red" and marked.

what allows Mao to project herself to Shin in the final battle?

common anime dramatic license. Kawamori prolly thinks it's better to present a visual-holo than just audio.

How does these mechanisms differ from the Sound Energy and Spiritia of M7?

Sara is a direct descendant of the Protoculture and trained by her father. It's not and never called Spiritia in Macross Zero.

Sound-energy is a concoction of Dr. Chiba. Nothing was established about Basara's heritage in all of M7's episodes, whereas Sara's and Mao's heritage were clearly defined in M-Zero.

Neither the APHOS nor Sara stole any human-spiritia from others to function or be more powerful, in contrast to the Spiritia-angle of M-7.

Edited December 2, 2004 by treatment

[CoryHolmes]

Minmay's singing specifically affecting or softening up the Zentraedi is considered supernatural and un-scientific. It's so obvious.

I find that to be about as supernatural as a stadium full of rockers or ravers being whipped up into a frenzy when the band is pounding. It's only supernatural if that's the sort of angle you're looking for and you use the ideas presented in Macross 7, about all that spirita babble.

So, I really don't know where you guys are getting this "magic" stuff from Macross Zero and why some of you continue to refuse to accept that MZero directly ties-in to TV/DYRL and Plus story and presentation.  MZero is a genuine sci-fi story and not a sci-fantasy like M7.

Because the only direct tie-ins Macross Zero has to SDF-Macross and Plus is transforming planes. That's it. Anything else is something the fans have to manufacture afterwords, with supposition, semi-educated guesses, and out-and-out fanboy wishes.

And because very little has any factual ties to SDF-Macross or Plus, we're left to default to the closest thing to what we seen in Zero, which is 7. All this magic garbage (my opinion) that we see in Macross 7 is being legitimized by Macross Zero, instead of being a one-off in its own series. Like it or not (and I do not), the clown faces and giant space monsters of Macross 7 is looking more and more like the future of every Macross show.

If that is the case, let me off the bandwagon now. I've had my fill of the story and it's one that I don't like at all.

[ewilen]

Treatment, my point about psychological warfare, etc., is essentially the same one that CoryHolmes made about people getting pumped up by a rock band. This is somethat that happens in the real world; mob psychology and hypnotism/suggestion are also well-known phenomena and therefore hardly supernatural. But since we've been back and forth on your conception of "magic" and related terms before, I'll just say that what's "so obvious" to you isn't obvious at all to many of us.

[treatment]

Minmay's singing specifically affecting or softening up the Zentraedi is considered supernatural and un-scientific.  It's so obvious.

I find that to be about as supernatural as a stadium full of rockers or ravers being whipped up into a frenzy when the band is pounding. It's only supernatural if that's the sort of angle you're looking for and you use the ideas presented in Macross 7, about all that spirita babble.

The fundamental difference is, Minmay's just one individual and not a stadium full of rockers. And she affected only the Zentraedis in TV, and the Zentrans and Meltrans in DYRL.

Minmay's just one person. Like Sara Nome's just one person.

Your stadium full of rockers is M-7, not M-Zero.

Whatever your ulterior motive is, I can't really comprehend why you keep trying to mix up M7 and MZero and come up with your rather ridiculous comparisons.

So, I really don't know where you guys are getting this "magic" stuff from Macross Zero and why some of you continue to refuse to accept that MZero directly ties-in to TV/DYRL and Plus story and presentation.  MZero is a genuine sci-fi story and not a sci-fantasy like M7.

Because the only direct tie-ins Macross Zero has to SDF-Macross and Plus is transforming planes. That's it. Anything else is something the fans have to manufacture afterwords, with supposition, semi-educated guesses, and out-and-out fanboy wishes.

And because very little has any factual ties to SDF-Macross or Plus, we're left to default to the closest thing to what we seen in Zero, which is 7. All this magic garbage (my opinion) that we see in Macross 7 is being legitimized by Macross Zero, instead of being a one-off in its own series. Like it or not (and I do not), the clown faces and giant space monsters of Macross 7 is looking more and more like the future of every Macross show.

If that is the case, let me off the bandwagon now. I've had my fill of the story and it's one that I don't like at all.

oh for fart's sake, Roy Focker is in Zero. That's a friggin FACT.

And that fact alone ties it directly to both SDF-TV and DYRL.

Zero does not legitimize any of the magic of M7.

Zero and 7 are fundamentally different in form, function, story and presentation.

[KingNor]

singing to someone and having it affect them isn't super natural.

floating rocks, and super fast growing flowers, mind control, jets turning into birds/sprouting feathers.. supernatural.

i use magic to refer to the stuff that doesn't seem to have any other explination, like singing a song to make rocks float.

however, singing and affecting someones emotions isn't friggin magic. its just how people are.

nothing special is happening to the zentradi.. imagine if you'd never ridden in a car, then you did one day, the feeling of speed would be overwhelming i'm sure.

imagine never having heard a song before, then hearing a very pretty melody, it would be quite effecting on you.

zentradi are a deprived form of humanity, its natural for them to flip out when they see a society based on such completely diffrent values than they have. Minmays singing doesn't effect the rest of the people from earth cuz they grew up with it.

tap dancing christ, you guys ever seen SDF or what? the show itself goes extensively into this stuff. do we really need to explain to the M7/M0 croud the message of the original SDF Macross? you guys even watch it or do you just assume that preludes to this stuff are there? cuz' its NOT. oi.

i offer this then, cuz i'm sick of proveing negatives to you guys. i want you to offer some PROOF that in SDF macross, stuff like the aphos had already happend, music was designed to run super weapons and have mystic powers.

(and for gods sake, psycological warfare IS NOT a mystic power.)

Gimme some proof please. find something in SDF that is a lead in to insturment powered jets and music being the sole thing needed to win wars, ship and rocks floating around and all this weirdness..

c'mon.

(also, i jsut want to go on record, that my point is SDF in no way was implying the way it was going to go. what gets on my nerves is when people say stuff like this was the plan all along.

I don't mind m7 and m0 on their own, what ever i'll just not watch them, but when people say that all the bizzare crap from these shows is aluded to in 7 and zero, then it gets on my nerves)

Edited December 2, 2004 by KingNor

[Prime]

SDF-TV has supernatural stuff.

Minmay's singing specifically affecting or softening up the Zentraedi is considered supernatural and un-scientific.  It's so obvious.

I don't think Minmay's affect on the Zentraedi is considered supernatural or unscientific. Now there may be information about this from Kowamori that states the contrary, but the impression I get is that it is more of a psychological affect. The affects of culture shock is a real concept. In this case it was not just two cultures colliding and the Zentraedi being adversely affected. The fact that they had no culture to speak of and were specifically engineered/altered/programmed to avoid such cultures made the affects of that shock so much more pronounced. They were completely horrified by the coexistance of males and females, which had nothing to do with singing. So I think it was Earth's culture as a whole that blew the Zentraedi's minds, and singing is just one of the more powerful aspects of that culture. I don't believe there was any indication that it was because of some supernatural/magic power of singing.

The point is, the events seen in Macross are easily explained without the presence of the supernatural, and culture shock is a very scientific concept. And the extreme shock the Zentraedi displayed is perfectly reasonable considering their background.

Turning to Macross-Zero, Sarah's singing and willpower controls the mechanical APHOS. There's nothing magical about it. It's just protoculture-tech presented in basic human mystical shamanic form.

That is the way I took it as well. Since humans were altered by the Protoculture to presumably be more like them, it makes sense that one of their machines would be able to operate under our control. Or it was designed to eventually be compatible with us as we evolved.

It also makes sense that Protoculture technology would seem magical to humans, considering how far advaced they were. It is like what ancient humans might think of cars and planes. Those would seem supernatural to them. And no doubt they would explain such things in terms of gods and religion and so on.

So, I really don't know where you guys are getting this "magic" stuff from Macross Zero and why some of you continue to refuse to accept that MZero directly ties-in to TV/DYRL and Plus story and presentation.  MZero is a genuine sci-fi story and not a sci-fantasy like M7.

Well, I think the term "magic" is used for a lack of a better one to discribe the flying rocks and the like that occures in Zero.

For me I found Zero ties in very well with the TV series and DYRL, because all the fantastic stuff we see is based on the Protoculture and their machines. It also shows how it relates to some of the technology we see in the original series (anti-gravity devices, the main gun, similar blood, etc.). This is one of the reasons why I think Zero works and M7 doesn't.

I'm no expert, but I'll take a stab at these from my impressions of the show. I'd be interested to hear what others think...

What is the mechanism by which Sara's willpower controls the Aphos?

Like I said above, I get the impression that the Protoculture machine was able to accept input from humans either because they made us more like them, or it was the machine's purpose to accept input from humans.

What mechanism allows Sara to see Mao kissing Shin;

I can remember this happening, but I can't quite remember if she was in the AFOS by this point or not. If she wasn't perhaps the AFOS can operate and somehow enhance the abilities of someone like the priestess (who has the same bloodtype to show a connection) without physical contact.

how does she make flowers bloom and plants grow;

This may also be explained by the above. Perhaps she had these abilities because she had the genetic connection to it (the blood) and the AFOS was in a reasonably close proximity. I'd be interested to learn if she had the same abilites on the other side of the planet away from the AFOS.

what allows Mao to project herself to Shin in the final battle?

I'm not sure about that one. I kind of get the impression that that was in Shin's head. Perhaps relayed through the AFOS?

How does these mechanisms differ from the Sound Energy and Spiritia of M7?

Again, I don't remember enough about M7, so I will leave that to someone else.

[treatment]

singing to someone and having it affect them isn't super natural. 

floating rocks, and super fast growing flowers, mind control, jets turning into birds/sprouting feathers..  supernatural.

i use magic to refer to the stuff that doesn't seem to have any other explination, like singing a song to make rocks float. 

however, singing and affecting someones emotions isn't friggin magic.  its just how people are.

nothing special is happening to the zentradi.. imagine if you'd never ridden in a car, then you did one day, the feeling of speed would be overwhelming i'm sure.

imagine never having heard a song before, then hearing a very pretty melody,  it would be quite effecting on you.

zentradi are a deprived form of humanity,  its natural for them to flip out when they see a society based on such completely diffrent values than they have.  Minmays singing doesn't effect the rest of the people from earth cuz they grew up with it.

tap dancing christ,  you guys ever seen SDF or what?  the show itself goes extensively into this stuff.  do we really need to explain to the M7/M0 croud the message of the original SDF Macross?  you guys even watch it or do you just assume that preludes to this stuff are there? cuz' its NOT.  oi.

*sigh*

there is no "tap-dancing" involved here in this discussion. not from me, at least. they're all verifiable and confirmable with all of the Macross series.

fact: Zentraedi's are not humans. They are an alien race of clones. They may share some genetic code with humans, but they're still aliens. They are not a deprived form of humanity.

So Minmay affecting the Zentraedi thru her singing is supernatural because of the fact that the Zentraedi were Aliens and she's a mere human. Minmay's singing did not have the same effect on her fellow humans. Bodolza later just accepted that it may be protoculture or protoculture-legacy.

i offer this then, cuz i'm sick of proveing negatives to you guys.  i want you to offer some PROOF that in SDF macross, stuff like the aphos had already happend, music was designed to run super weapons and have mystic powers.

(and for gods sake, psycological warfare IS NOT a mystic power.)

Gimme some proof please. find something in SDF that is a lead in to insturment powered jets and music being the sole thing needed to win wars, ship and rocks floating around and all this weirdness..

c'mon.

Where the heck did you get that music was designed to run super weapons in SDF-TV???

Switch to Zero:

Sara's maybe half-protoculture or full-protoculture. She can only affect protoculture-stuff like the AIPHOS/AFOS-mecha and the stained flowers and rocks of the sanctuary and the forest. No other person, not even Mao, can replicate Sara's supernatural abilities. Aries and Dr. Hasford knew of Sara's supernatural abilities, but are not sure of their findings about her.

Mao only had a limited protoculture-legacy abilities and only got amplified with "blood"-transfusion from the AFOS. None of the Mayan people had any. Not even Nutuk.

Sara did not wage psycological warfare at all with her abilities. She waged a full battle. Sara did not power any human-made jets. Sara piloted the AFOS.

Sara only controlled the AFOS-mecha as the weapon. Her control-mode is her specific vocals, i.e.singing. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing is implied nor contradict anything in SDF-TV or DYRL.

(also, i jsut want to go on record, that my point is SDF in no way was implying the way it was going to go.  what gets on my nerves is when people say stuff like this was the plan all along. 

I don't mind m7 and m0 on their own, what ever i'll just not watch them, but when people say that all the bizzare crap from these shows is aluded to in 7 and zero, then it gets on my nerves)

Switch to Plus:

No protoculture-legacy at all.

Switch to Seven:

Protoculture-legacy just got bastardized.

---

The fact that you even think that the Zentraedi are not alien-beings, but rather deprived form of humanity just tells me that you seem to have mis-understood and/or lack more tv-time with SDF-TV and DYRL.

So in essence, maybe _you_ need to re-watch SDF-TV and DYRL to fully grasp and understand the concepts presented in both and not just focus yourself on jets and mechas. Maybe then you'll understand that Zero's concepts are very consistent with both TV and DYRL, and fully comparable/compatible and even directly upgradeable to Plus.

Zero just can not be compared to M7 at all, no matter what the M7-fans here or M7-detractors try to do in this thread.

And for fart's sake, where the heck did you see the VF-0 turned into a bird in Zero???

Have you ever seen Plus? The way Sharon took over Isamu and the YF-19?

Same thing. Same concept. Just different motivation and conclusion, i.e. Sharon was guiding Isamu to his death, whereas Sara's essence was capturing Shin and taking him away.

edit: cleared up for quotes

Edited December 2, 2004 by treatment

[KingNor]

ok maybe i wasn't clear when i used the word "humanity"

because in the show the zentradis are shown be be basic genetic matches. 99.99 what ever percent. they look like us, and with proper upbringing they act like us. they can mate with us and produce offspring.

yes zentradi are zentradi and not "humans" but they are posesing of every human quality, giving them a humanity like ours. probably not the best word, sorry.

my point is that they act JUST like we do given the same sircumstances.

thus the way they act are not so much because they are aliens called zentradi, but because they are PEOPLE who've been deprived of culture.

(also they are very big)

driving my point home that singing didn't have a effect on them because they are zentradi (aliens), but because they'd never heard singing before.

they were behaving the exact same way humans would have in the same situation.

same reason like.. bears and dolphins don't have "culture shock" when they hear singing.

as for other serise's meshing witht he early ones.. i think dyrl, m+, MZERO work well togeather, i think Macii, SDF, and M7 don't fit with anything else.

[ewilen]

Prime, thanks for your reply. I think we are roughly on the same wavelength. But your answers to my "mechanism" questions really don't amount to much more than "it's Protoculture technology...and stuff", do they? To me, that isn't much different from M7, where Spiritia and Sound Energy are presented as natural phenomena which aren't well known or well understood (at least until Dr. Chiba gets a handle on them).

In neither case, ultimately, is there anything truly "supernatural" in the sense of "divine" or coming from outside the natural world. But at the same time, like M7, many of the phenomena in M0 are only tenuously connected to current science. Speaking to someone mind-to-mind, the way that Mao does with Shin in the final episode, has no concrete explanation even though it might be reasonable to see it as a manifestation of "ultra technology".

Compare the "unreal" aspects of Macross. (BTW, I agree that Minmay's effect on the Zents isn't one of the unreal aspects.) Antigravity generators, space fold technology, force fields, thermonuclear reaction engines--none of them exist today, but the principles behind them have all been explored to a greater or lesser extent in serious scientific speculation. That, and the fact that they're all well-accepted science-fictional conventions grounds SDF Macross in the "hard SF" genre.

Now you might reject the notion that there are degrees of unreality. Perhaps it's purely a matter of convention and cultural conditioning by which we consider one fictional element to be SF and another to be fantasy. Even so, in order to sustain disbelief and be comprehensible to the reader, "realistic" fiction must have a rules that it sets and adheres to. Otherwise, literally "anything goes". Consequences do not follow from actions. Plot complications become meaningless and arbitrary, as do plot resolutions. If you accept this thesis, then the "problem" with MZero is that it introduces such vastly different rules as to make it incomprehensible and unbelievable to many fans of the earlier series. The same of course applies to M7, but M7 also turns some people off in other ways. My earlier example applies: you can be a fan of The Godfather and the Exorcist, but still be turned off if the rules from one story are suddently imported into the other.

For the record, I like all the Macrosses I've seen, which is all of them except MII.

[treatment]

ok maybe i wasn't clear when i used the word "humanity"

because in the show the zentradis are shown be be basic genetic matches. 99.99 what ever percent. they look like us, and with proper upbringing they act like us. they can mate with us and produce offspring.

yes zentradi are zentradi and not "humans" but they are posesing of every human quality, giving them a humanity like ours. probably not the best word, sorry.

my point is that they act JUST like we do given the same sircumstances.

thus the way they act are not so much because they are aliens called zentradi, but because they are PEOPLE who've been deprived of culture.

(also they are very big)

driving my point home that singing didn't have a effect on them because they are zentradi (aliens), but because they'd never heard singing before.

they were behaving the exact same way humans would have in the same situation.

same reason like.. bears and dolphins don't have "culture shock" when they hear singing.

as for other serise's meshing witht he early ones.. i think dyrl, m+, MZERO work well togeather, i think Macii, SDF, and M7 don't fit with anything else.

ok, then. here's another fodder for yah. Some fan-speculation from me.

In SDF-TV, the Zentraedi were all looking for reaction weapons, right? That's why they were hell-bent on retrieving the SDF-1 rather than destroying it. It's all explained in the compendium and stuff that reaction weapons means nuclear-weapons.

With Zero, that definition seemed to have changed a bit and I'll explain why. It still refers mostly to nuclear weapons on human-side, but what of from the Zentraedi side?

Now the Zentraedi had an unnatural/"un-alien" reaction/aversion/repulsion/whatever with protoculture, i.e. Minmay's singing. Kinda equivalent to us humans having an instinctive fear of snakes, wolves and what have yah.

But the Zentraedi's were clones and their memories have all but jumbled up from previous generation and regeneration of the cloning process. They had a supreme prime directive to not mess with protoculture, but they already forgotten the reason why as much as they had forgotten music and ship-repair.

Now in Zero, Sara piloted and controlled the AFOS-mecha thru her singing. She's either half or full protoculture. But the fact remains that she waged a full battle with the AFOS against both the UN and Anti-UN ships and jets. This is the first time we ever saw a protoculture wage battle.

Could it be that Kawamori wanted to re-explain reaction weapons as protoculture-weapon controlled by a muse (i.e. sara, minmay)?

That should be a good fodder as to why the Zentraedi's fear of humans/protoculture and reaction weapons. That the humans can be like the protoculture and control/unleash/field and wage battle with an army of powerful protoculture-mechas like the AFOS against them.

I know this completely avoids the protodevlin stuff of M7. But hey!

Just speculation, of course.

[Prime]

fact: Zentraedi's are not humans.  They are an alien race of clones. They may share some genetic code with humans, but they're still aliens. They are not a deprived form of humanity.

So Minmay affecting the Zentraedi thru her singing is supernatural because of the fact that the Zentraedi were Aliens and she's a mere human.  Minmay's singing did not have the same effect on her fellow humans.  Bodolza later just accepted that it may be protoculture or protoculture-legacy.

I don't see how any of what you just said makes it supernatural. Everything is explained in terms of natural laws. The Zentraedi, whether alien or not, still exist and function on the set of natural laws in the universe. They do not require anything beyond natural laws to exist that would make them supernatural. The same with music's affect on them. Their reaction can be explained using natural laws of psychology/physiology, and thus it is not supernatural.

Prime, thanks for your reply. I think we are roughly on the same wavelength. But your answers to my "mechanism" questions really don't amount to much more than "it's Protoculture technology...and stuff", do they? To me, that isn't much different from M7, where Spiritia and Sound Energy are presented as natural phenomena which aren't well known or well understood (at least until Dr. Chiba gets a handle on them).

Good point. To be honest, this is a good discussion because it is forcing me to examine Zero a bit closer. Going in I didn't like Macross 7, and in the end I liked Zero a lot. For one reason or another, Zero just "worked" for me. I am thinking I feel that way because for me at least the presence of the Protoculture makes things more feasible to me. The AFOS certainly stands out as a bizarre thing in the Macross universe. But it is made much more real and acceptable to me because of the direct tie ins to the original series and the Macross itself (the main gun and anti-gravity generators mentioned earlier).

That and the fact that the Protoculture have been a part of the Macross story from the beginning. Because of this connection to the original series, I seem to be much more willing to accept its presence and affects in Zero. And it indeed does come down to "Protoculture technology and stuff" because the fact is there isn't really much else to go one. Kawamori has never been one to fill in the details. Like I said earlier, I don't think my problem with M7 is the concept of spiritia so much, but the fact that it leads to Valkyries flown by musical instruments and a guy I don't like singing the same song over and over.

In neither case, ultimately, is there anything truly "supernatural" in the sense of "divine" or coming from outside the natural world. But at the same time, like M7, many of the phenomena in M0 are only tenuously connected to current science. Speaking to someone mind-to-mind, the way that Mao does with Shin in the final episode, has no concrete explanation even though it might be reasonable to see it as a manifestation of "ultra technology".

I guess I see it as all a product of Protoculture technology because to this point I haven't come up with a better theory, as opposed to it being blatently obvious. From the impressions I got from there series, there are three possibilities as I see it. The first is the one we've discussed where the AFOS has an affect on the Mayan people and the events in that area. The second is that Sara and Nora are different from other humans (genetically or otherwise) as a result of the tampering by the Protoculture long ago. Perhaps because of this they have powers beyond normal humans as seen in the show. The third possibility is some combination of the two. Perhaps the AFOS can only interact with Sara and potentially Mao, and it enhances their latent powers.

Personally, I tend to think either 1 or 3 is the most likely. But that being said, IIRC Aries had mentioned that Hasford had a theory that once upon a time humans could make rocks float. But in the end, it all comes down to the Protoculture.

Compare the "unreal" aspects of Macross. (BTW, I agree that Minmay's effect on the Zents isn't one of the unreal aspects.) Antigravity generators, space fold technology, force fields, thermonuclear reaction engines--none of them exist today, but the principles behind them have all been explored to a greater or lesser extent in serious scientific speculation. That, and the fact that they're all well-accepted science-fictional conventions grounds SDF Macross in the "hard SF" genre.

Indeed. There is nothing in the original series that is greatly outside the standards of science fiction. Also, these concepts are introduced at the beginning of the series and are used to establish the rules and concepts the series will use going forward.

Now you might reject the notion that there are degrees of unreality. Perhaps it's purely a matter of convention and cultural conditioning by which we consider one fictional element to be SF and another to be fantasy. Even so, in order to sustain disbelief and be comprehensible to the reader, "realistic" fiction must have a rules that it sets and adheres to. Otherwise, literally "anything goes".

I agree completely. The viewer will base the realism on the set of rules and conventions and base their suspension of disbelief on those rules. That is why someone can enjoy Star Wars and accept the concepts within it, and still not like the supernatural aspects of Zero and M7.

Consequences do not follow from actions. Plot complications become meaningless and arbitrary, as do plot resolutions. If you accept this thesis, then the "problem" with MZero is that it introduces such vastly different rules as to make it incomprehensible and unbelievable to many fans of the earlier series. The same of course applies to M7, but M7 also turns some people off in other ways.

Although I enjoyed Zero, the supernatural aspects of the show certainly are a stretch, and I find them too much in M7. And I can certainly see why many Macross fans do not like the show because of it. I had a problem with it in the first few episodes, when there were times when I was saying "WTF?"

But I think Zero succeeds in grounding these aspects, albeit after the fact, by tying the AFOS and and the floating ships and such back to the Protoculture and the familiar concepts from the first series to show that it is indeed a machine that is in part comparable to the Macross or parts thereof. Once this connection was made, I could resolve my suspention of disbelief and allow it to be explained as the AFOS/Protoculture allow these events to be possible, even if I don't completely understand the mechanisms.

My earlier example applies: you can be a fan of The Godfather and the Exorcist, but still be turned off if the rules from one story are suddently imported into the other.

To take that point one step further, I think people could accept a movie about a godfather and demons if the premise and concepts for the story were set up from the beginning.

[Keith]

You guys are being far too tight-assed about what you consider magic, what you consider science, and what you consider hard sci-fi.

Like it or not, giant transforming robots are magic by your various standards. There are no current explanations of how such things can exist in reality, therefor its fantasy. Space ships which can travel large distances through space by folding it are also magic. Nuclear fusion, magic. Huge beam cannons, magic. 1Aliens that can manipulate the genes of other life forms to make them like themselves are again Magic. Giant human like aliens that were created by those other aliens.... None of these things have any current base in reality, you just choose to accept them as such.

Kawamori & co have gone to a good depth in explaining why all of the things above, as well as the concepts you choose not to accept, work within their storyline. In Macross, machines have the ability to fire energy beam cannons at one another. And in Macross, life forms have the ability to generate energ that can touch & influence the energy of other life forms. It's not done through magic (as described above as roughly un-explanable spontanous means), but by the natural ability of the body & mind to produce such things. Why is a beam cannon easier for you to accept than a ki blast? Neither has any more basis in reality than the other. We don't have the ability to create either, nor will we likely anytime in the near future.

What we do know, machines are cool, and music can change the way people feel. This is the premise that Macross has always worked on.

Now as for this nonsense about SDF-TV & Plus tying in more together, and Zero & 7 pairing off in the same way, have you actually watched them for anything other than the Valkyries? Macross Plus & 7 are alike in many ways. More accurately, they're the mirror images of each other. In one series you have events being enacted by machines, and another humans. One shows the harm that can be done with artificial means, and the other shows the good that can be done with "natural means."

For me I found Zero ties in very well with the TV series and DYRL, because all the fantastic stuff we see is based on the Protoculture and their machines. It also shows how it relates to some of the technology we see in the original series (anti-gravity devices, the main gun, similar blood, etc.). This is one of the reasons why I think Zero works and M7 doesn't.

What you're missing, is that the level of Protoculture technology shown in Zero is so far above that used to create the ASS-1 & Zentradi fleets, that it is no longer mechanical, it's biological. Do you honestly thing the APHOS is a metalic technological creation? It's clearly shown as a living thing. The thing about it that amazed the U.N. scientists was that its organs mimiced the systems of the Macross. This is the same level of technology that was used to create the EVIL bodies which the Protodevelin stole in 7. In turn, Sara's song effected all living thigns around the island. Not just the plants, & rocks, but the animals, bugs, birds, and apparently Shin. It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic.

Everyone needs to stop being so damned insecure with things they "think" are too fantastic. The whole series from the start was fantastic, as is most fiction.

[Keith]

Ah, and to answer that question, the order I watched in was:

-Robotech ::shutters::

-Macross Plus

-DYRL

-Macross II

-Flash Back 2012

-Macross 7

-Macross (AnimEigo set) proper.

-Macross Zero

[Prime]

What you're missing, is that the level of Protoculture technology shown in Zero is so far above that used to create the ASS-1 & Zentradi fleets, that it is no longer mechanical, it's biological. Do you honestly thing the APHOS is a metalic technological creation?

No. A machine does not have to be metalic, and I never said the AFOS was. You are applying your preconceptions to what I said.

The thing about it that amazed the U.N. scientists was that its organs mimiced the systems of the Macross. This is the same level of technology that was used to create the EVIL bodies which the Protodevelin stole in 7. In turn, Sara's song effected all living thigns around the island. Not just the plants, & rocks, but the animals, bugs, birds, and apparently Shin.

So is your theory that the AFOS was affecting the surroundings when Sara was singing, or did Sara have a special power that other humans do not? Or is it a combination of the two? I'm asking because I am not sure myself.

It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic.

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on. I can hate M7 because I don't like how Basara crams his idology down everyone's throat and sings the same crap song over and over again. And I can not like Valkyries controlled by musical intruments. And I can think that some M7 characters with things like bird wings look ridiculous and not like silly squadron names like "Pink Pecker."

It is entirely possible to like one series and not the other.

Everyone needs to stop being so damned insecure with things they "think" are too fantastic. The whole series from the start was fantastic, as is most fiction.

Sure. But people are still free to like certain elements of one series and not like other elements from other series. I go by impressions and do not force myself to like things or try and reason out why I should or shouldn't. I either do or I don't.

On another track, I do have one question about the timeline though. According the to the Macross Compendium, the events of Macross Zero take place in September of 2008, and of course the beginning of the original series was February 2009, or a 5 month timeframe. Roy was a test pilot for the VF-1 as seen in flashbacks, correct? When did those flashback events occur? The VF-1 is already set to start production by the time the events of Zero occur. But IIRC he meets Claudia during that time, so should that put it after Zero? Can someone clear that up for me?

Edited December 4, 2004 by Prime

[Keith]

No. A machine does not have to be metalic, and I never said the AFOS was. You are applying your preconceptions to what I said.

Perhaps you just weren't clear enough in what you said. The implication I got was that you percieved the AFOS to be nothing more than a machine left over from the Protoculture, as opposed to the actual living thing that it is.

So is your theory that the AFOS was affecting the surroundings when Sara was singing, or did Sara have a special power that other humans do not? Or is it a combination of the two? I'm asking because I am not sure myself.

The AFOS was doing nothing. The energy Sara generated while singing was what affected her surroundings. Her blood is what gave her the connection with the AFOS, her energy is what let her tap into that connection.

QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 3 2004, 02:05 AM)

It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic.

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on.

My problem with this argument being, those very same "fantastic elements" are used in 7 as well, in the very same contexts.

I can hate M7 because I don't like how Basara crams his idology down everyone's throat

Basara doesn't cram anything down anyones throat, nor does he force any ideology on anyone. He doesn't force Gamlin or any of the other U.N. pilots to follow suit with him, he just doesn't back down to them trying to force him to change what he's doing. Hell, he even acknowledges their purpose & the need for them to fight, but at the same time he works towards taking everyone out of that situation where there's a need to fight. And when it comes down to it, why is forcing a bullet into someone more unacceptable to you, then trying to sway their emotions through song?

and sings the same crap song over and over again.

Actually, he sings two albums worth of songs over & over again. All things considered, Macross 7 problably has one of the highest counts of vocal songs actively used of any series, save Cowboy Bebop.

And I can not like Valkyries controlled by musical intruments.

Had all Valkyries been "controlled" with the alternate setups, I could see your point, but with only "3" being so, it's a superficial argument. Especially when they weren't military use Valkyries. And as many seem to miss, they weren't "played" to fly, in fact it's specifically shown that they couldn't be played & used to fly at the same time. They were merely atlernately formed control setups.

And I can think that some M7 characters with things like bird wings look ridiculous

Pssst, AFOS.

and not like silly squadron names like "Pink Pecker."

Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback.

It is entirely possible to like one series and not the other.

And it's more likely that you nitpick on one more than the other for entirely superficial reasons, when both have far more in common than not.

Sure. But people are still free to like certain elements of one series and not like other elements from other series. I go by impressions and do not force myself to like things or try and reason out why I should or shouldn't. I either do or I don't.

You also seem to condemn things soley based on what you are & aren't comfortable with, instead of judging them by their own merit. Despite all your gripes, you've yet to establish why you like these very same concepts impletmented into Zero, but don't like them in 7. And even then, if it were a simple matter of dislike, that would be one thing, but when you go to the lengths of making fun of 7 despite all the similarities with Zero, that's where it gets confusing.

[Prime]

Perhaps you just weren't clear enough in what you said. The implication I got was that you percieved the AFOS to be nothing more than a machine left over from the Protoculture, as opposed to the actual living thing that it is.

Fair enough.

The AFOS was doing nothing. The energy Sara generated while singing was what affected her surroundings. Her blood is what gave her the connection with the AFOS, her energy is what let her tap into that connection.

OK. Then what was the mechanism that allowed her float rocks and the like? Is it just the way the universe works?

My problem with this argument being, those very same "fantastic elements" are used in 7 as well, in the very same contexts.

Again, it is not particularly the fantastic elements of M7 that I really don't like. It is the other aspects of the series.

Basara doesn't cram anything down anyones throat, nor does he force any ideology on anyone. He doesn't force Gamlin or any of the other U.N. pilots to follow suit with him, he just doesn't back down to them trying to force him to change what he's doing. Hell, he even acknowledges their purpose & the need for them to fight, but at the same time he works towards taking everyone out of that situation where there's a need to fight. And when it comes down to it, why is forcing a bullet into someone more unacceptable to you, then trying to sway their emotions through song?

Point taken. But the guy just annoys the hell out of me with the whole "you will listen to my song" thing. Over and over and over again. Also, I just hate all of his songs.

Actually, he sings two albums worth of songs over & over again. All things considered, Macross 7 problably has one of the highest counts of vocal songs actively used of any series, save Cowboy Bebop.

It has been a long time since I watched the series, but they all sounded more or less the same to me. And again, I didn't like any of them because I found them too J-pop for my liking. What can I say, I won't listen to Basara's song.

Had all Valkyries been "controlled" with the alternate setups, I could see your point, but with only "3" being so, it's a superficial argument. Especially when they weren't military use Valkyries. And as many seem to miss, they weren't "played" to fly, in fact it's specifically shown that they couldn't be played & used to fly at the same time. They were merely atlernately formed control setups.

I understand very well that the playing of the instruments isn't what controls the Valkyries. It doesn't change the fact that I find shots like a guy drumming as a fighter canopy lowers silly. And even if there are only three of them, there are featured prominantly, and so I find I am laughing at such things constantly throughout the show. What can I say, it just strikes me as funny.

And I can think that some M7 characters with things like bird wings look ridiculous

Pssst, AFOS.

Yeah, I think that looks ridiculous too. I don't like every little thing in Zero either.

Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback.

I was just using it as an example of things in the series that cause me to "LOL."

And it's more likely that you nitpick on one more than the other for entirely superficial reasons, when both have far more in common than not.

Then that could be said about any opinions then. I just didn't find a lot of the details in Zero funny whereas I did with M7. For whatever reason, Zero was done in such a way that I enjoyed the story more and it held my suspention of disbelieve. They may have a lot in common, but I found the presentations to be different enough for me to like one over the other.

You also seem to condemn things soley based on what you are & aren't comfortable with, instead of judging them by their own merit. Despite all your gripes, you've yet to establish why you like these very same concepts impletmented into Zero, but don't like them in 7.

The things I don't like in M7 are not in Zero. There are no Valkyries with musical instrument-like controls. There are no characters who are constantly singing J-pop songs. There is no one constantly demanding that people listen to their song. There are no giant speaker-like Valkyrie contraptions. There are no shots of drummers playing while the cockpit canopy lowers, and so on. The absense of these things are some of the reasons why I like Zero and don't like M7.

And even then, if it were a simple matter of dislike, that would be one thing, but when you go to the lengths of making fun of 7 despite all the similarities with Zero, that's where it gets confusing.

Well, I do want to state my opinions like everyone around here, and I do like to tease people. But hopefully you will see that I do not attack people (at least I try not to) for liking M7 or other things I personally don't like. I accept that others love the show and I respect that, and I do not intend to attack them personally for that. But that isn't going to prevent me from expressing my views on things.

I mean, hell, I like the Star Wars prequels. I deal a lot with people nitpicking the stuff I like.

Edited December 4, 2004 by Prime

[Black Valkyrie]

I don`t guys but M0 should have been based on Macross ship study or research and the VF-1X development, believe me I wouldn`t mind if M0 was based on that memory episode from the TV series and even if it didn`t had transforming VF`s .

[Radd]

My take on how people can hate M7 and love M0 is simply that Kawamori directed Zero, while someone else directed 7 (I forget his name), and both directors had a very different style of directing. Sure the themes of the two shows are the same, and they share some of the same elements when it comes to the energy of the human spirit and whatnot, but they're portrayed in a very different style from one show to the other.

It seems to me that many people dislike the directing style of M7, and not neccessarily the story or the premise. How a story is presented is just as important as to how good the story itself is. Final Fantasy the Spirits Within has a fantastic story premise, and one that is very similar in tone and storytelling to those of the Final Fantasy games, however it was handed over to an incompetant screenplay writer and director, both of whom shared fault in butchering what could have been a great movie.

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Grok?

[KingNor]

very very well put RADD...

 

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on.

My problem with this argument being, those very same "fantastic elements" are used in 7 as well, in the very same contexts.

keith i agree with you here and i'd like to add something to it.

there are alot of themes shared by m0 and m7, both are presented in diffrent ways. like RADD said, the presentation is just as important.

In SDF i do beleive the story was about the strentgh of the human will/heart. but it was manifested through the humans physical willingness to do something about their situation. Minmay was like a representation of their will, and in the story also a psycological distraction (see: weapon) against the enemy.

the overall theme of SDF to me was "bring togeather, don't destroy" but the means to that end was bloody.

Mzero and M7 have the same things going on in them, but instead of minmay's singing simply being a way to bring out unfound emotions in the zentradi, music is used as a more tangible.. recogniseable.. and reliable type of weapon.

in SDF music was used to SUPPORT the main fighting force and give them an edge.

M7, and to a lesser extent, Mzero seem to want to use music INSTEAD of a main fighting force. in that the music itself could single handedly decide the outcome of a conflict.

I feel this diffrence is where SDF is set apart from the rest of the franchise.

SDF = one person with a song can make a diffrence

Macross franchise since = one person with a song is the most powerful of all.

this is the break for me. i don't like the idea that the rest of humanity kinda, falls off into the background i guess.

[CoryHolmes]

Macross franchise since = one person with a song is the most powerful of all.

this is the break for me. i don't like the idea that the rest of humanity kinda, falls off into the background i guess.

That brings up a very good point. In SDF Macross, it was a military show in the sense that the crew, the pilots, and the civilians were are regular people thrown into extraordinary situations. And yet they somehow manage to survive and even win the fights.

Now fast-forward to Macross 7, where it's not regular people. Now they've introduced the concept of Spirita and how only some "special" people can use it to fight and win, while everyone else is just fodder. FAR too many shows have taken that route lately (Evangelion, Gasaraki, Orgun, etc.) where the hero is special and/or supernatural in some manner, and I truely despise that.

Now skip further ahead to Macross Zero, where it's obvious that Sara is a very "special" person with abilities and powers that far outstrip any of the other humans, with the possible exception of her fellow islanders. That reinforces the idea that regular people aren't good enough for Macross plots anymore.

Edited December 4, 2004 by CoryHolmes

[VF5SS]

That reinforces the idea that regular people aren't good enough for Macross plots anymore.

Says you. Gamlin was good enough, Max was good enough, Shin was god enough, Roy was good enough... etc etc.

[Prime]

[some good stuff snipped to save space]

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Yes. You seem to have stated it better than I have been.

Now fast-forward to Macross 7, where it's not regular people. Now they've introduced the concept of Spirita and how only some "special" people can use it to fight and win, while everyone else is just fodder.

I don't know about everyone else being cannon fodder, but one thing that drew me into the original story was that it showed how powerful emotions, and the results of those emotions like music, love and culture are. Like others have said most/all the characters in the original Macross (and Plus) were more or less "ordinary" people who lived through extraordinary events.

Move onto M7 and Zero. They take things that were once based on real things like emotions and music, and turns them to some extent into super powers. Perhaps I would personally find this more acceptable if this was done from the beginning. But as a result it turns the story from a very human one were I can relate to the characters to one about superheros.

The newer theme of having characters with extraordinary powers is one of the things I dislike about Zero. But there are enough other elements in the series that I really enjoy (visuals, other characters, learning more about the Protoculture and Anti-UN) that it offsets the aspects I don't like. And I found that the story was good enough to hold my suspension of disbelief enough for me to accept the "magical" parts, even if I didn't enjoy those elements as much.

For M7, it doesn't have those extra elements I enjoy to offset the other things I don't like. In the end it just isn't an enjoyable series for me.

Edited December 4, 2004 by Prime

[bsu legato]

FAR too many shows have taken that route lately (Evangelion, Gasaraki, Orgun, etc.) where the hero is special and/or supernatural in some manner, and I truely despise that.

Umm.....do you watch much anime? Amuro seemed pretty "special." What about the crew from Gatchaman? And this isn't even something confined to anime, either. I could form some kind of argument that would cite Joseph Campbell, but the only way you would buy it would be if it came from the Robotech.com Encyclopedia.

[azrael]

Move onto M7 and Zero. They take things that were once based on real things like emotions and music, and turns them to some extent into super powers.

It is emotion and and it only seems like magic, thanks to technology.

And I found that the story was good enough to hold my suspension of disbelief enough for me to accept the "magical" parts, even if I didn't enjoy those elements as much.

"Any sufficient advance in technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Arthur C. Clark's 3rd Law.

[CoryHolmes]

That reinforces the idea that regular people aren't good enough for Macross plots anymore.

Says you. Gamlin was good enough, Max was good enough, Shin was god enough, Roy was good enough... etc etc.

And what's the total effect that Gamlin had in Macross 7? Did he defeat the Protodevlin? Did he save the day in the end? No. It was Basara and his superhuman powers with Spirita that did it.

Same thing with Max. Who did the most good in Macross 7? The regular human pilot/leader or the superhuman guitarist?

Shin was good enough, but did he really do any good in the end of Zero? No. It was Sara, who (through some unexplained way) had "magical" powers of her own. All Shin really did was convince her to stop.

Roy was a major character in SDF, which is what I said in my post. It's only in 7 and Zero that I see this trend starting. And in Zero, what did Roy really do in final scheme of things?

It's just that to me, regular humans are being eclipsed by these superhuman/magical/spirita-using people in the Macross universe.

I could form some kind of argument that would cite Joseph Campbell, but the only way you would buy it would be if it came from the Robotech.com Encyclopedia.

Actually, the only way I'd buy it is if I knew who or what you were talking about

[Radd]

I have to disagree with you KingNor and Corey. The idea in 7 wasn't that Basara was super human, he was a regular guy. It was the message he was trying to get across that was important. Victory came, and not just for the M7 fleet, when enough people understood that message.

Also in Zero, it was Shin who was important in the end. It was Shin that gave Sarah hope for the rest of humanity, and in that way it was Shin, not Sarah, who saved humanity from both Sarah and AFOS.

And what about DYRL? and Plus? Both came after SDF and neither of them are ever accused of having some super powerful hero character leaving the regular people in the dust.

[CoryHolmes]

I have to disagree with you KingNor and Corey. The idea in 7 wasn't that Basara was super human, he was a regular guy. It was the message he was trying to get across that was important. Victory came, and not just for the M7 fleet, when enough people understood that message.

Also in Zero, it was Shin who was important in the end. It was Shin that gave Sarah hope for the rest of humanity, and in that way it was Shin, not Sarah, who saved humanity from both Sarah and AFOS.

And what about DYRL? and Plus? Both came after SDF and neither of them are ever accused of having some super powerful hero character leaving the regular people in the dust.

According to Keith (if I remember correctly), whom I recognize as the most knowledgeable guy around here on the Macrossverse, DYRL Minmay was able to project and manipuate Spirita in much the same way as Basara.

And you're right in that Plus has no mention of these sorts of people, which is probably why that's my favourite Macross of the bunch

[treatment]

I have to disagree with you KingNor and Corey. The idea in 7 wasn't that Basara was super human, he was a regular guy. It was the message he was trying to get across that was important. Victory came, and not just for the M7 fleet, when enough people understood that message.

Also in Zero, it was Shin who was important in the end. It was Shin that gave Sarah hope for the rest of humanity, and in that way it was Shin, not Sarah, who saved humanity from both Sarah and AFOS.

And what about DYRL? and Plus? Both came after SDF and neither of them are ever accused of having some super powerful hero character leaving the regular people in the dust.

According to Keith (if I remember correctly), whom I recognize as the most knowledgeable guy around here on the Macrossverse, DYRL Minmay was able to project and manipuate Spirita in much the same way as Basara.

what????!!!!

geezus.

I highly doubt that Keith would even go THAT far.

Do yourself a favor and watch DYRL already to know for your own sake.