MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Agent ONE]

Hey guys quit trying to make sense out of M7... It is like trying to look for meaning in the Teletubies.

I view M7 as a horrible blemish on an otherwise perfect world.

I actually see myself as a reason that M7 exists. As it is the ultimate force of lameness in the universe, I am the ultimate force of awesomeness in the universe. We balance each other out.

[Keith]

YOU WILL LISTEN TO BASARA'S SONG!

[RichterX]

YOU WILL LISTEN TO BASARA'S SONG!

Amen to that my brother!

[macplus]

Instead of looking for words to explain what is portrayed in macross 7 why not accept the fact that it was really a miserable, stupid and sorry excuse of a show full of sissies and the only thing that made it worse is that it's cannon with the rest of the franchise.. at leat make it a parallel universe like Macross 2 so we don't have to endure with that crpa on future series, again I stand with the fact that Macross 7 was a series full of potential while on the paper script.... but a complete turd as a show, the idea of being bombarded with sissiness and the overall lameness of the show is not my idea of a good product.. even worse they had to put a complete set of jerks as the heroes.. 'common.... Macross zero on the other hand doesn't have that constant stupid crappiness upon the things that look like "magic".., they even look realistic in the context of the story, maybe if macross 7 was made more seriously something good might have come from it. As it is Macross 7 is totally comparable to ZZ gundam.. a series that constantly ridiculized the old characters (even the mecha! putting a Zaku head on the Zeta gundam was a total crime, second only to what they did to the valks of the clown force... terrible), had a bunch of nonsense and put a complete loser as the main character and even worse, we constantly are injected with the idea that he's the coolest pilot ever... same with that pussy of Basara, the only thing is that ZZ turned out good at the end (good, not excellent) on the contrary M7 was a POS 'till the end. Macross Zero while not perfect was very good, I give it 2 thumbs up. Now back to the tread folks

Edited November 24, 2004 by macplus

[whytwolf]

I actually like the mystical, 'magical' (in the Clarke's Law sense) overtones of the Macross series. While I've not seen M7 (And I suspect AgentONE will consider that a blessing--if he would deign to consider my meek humbleness before his great mightiness at all) the rest of the Macross franchise (save M+, which from my understanding was not intended to be part of the Macross universe originally) really does have a very deep mysitical subtext--especially in the revenance shown for the lost Protoculture.

I see it sort of like a grand Greek epic, with the Protoculture cast as Olympian Gods--great and powerful, but flawed nonetheless, and in time, crippled and crushed by the weight of their follies.

But that's just me

Sean

[LinxCrossq]

Funny that Macross 7 is the longest Macross series of all:lol:

And listening to Basara is good!!!

[Keith]

Instead of looking for words to explain what is portrayed in macross 7 why not accept the fact that it was really a miserable, stupid and sorry excuse of a show full of sissies and the only thing that made it worse is that it's cannon with the rest of the franchise..

The simple answer to that question is that "you're wrong." Macross 7 was an awesome series, whether you choose to like it or not is your gig, but simply demeaning a show just becasue you're uncomfortable with its concepts is juvenile at best.

[macplus]

Instead of looking for words to explain what is portrayed in macross 7 why not accept the fact that it was really a miserable, stupid and sorry excuse of a show full of sissies and the only thing that made it worse is that it's cannon with the rest of the franchise..

The simple answer to that question is that "you're wrong." Macross 7 was an awesome series, whether you choose to like it or not is your gig, but simply demeaning a show just becasue you're uncomfortable with its concepts is juvenile at best.

You're wrong with this my friend, juvenile would be to say "I don't like it because I don't like it or it's not my style", I try to put facts on my posts about why I find the show so crappy, believe me I really tried to like it but I only got a desception each time (I saw it 2 and a half times). I would consider juvenile though the way I like to use strong words, but it's only for the purpose of having fun, not to insult anyone. On the Macross 7 topic I know you love the show and find everything reasonable about it, but maybe I have a more complicated vision of things, the fact is that none of the usual responses that appear each time someone bashes the show really convinces me, as I stated above I give credit to M7 that it has a great story, but only on paper, what we got is not good to me, it simply raped everything I loved about macross, and the creators just pushed it's sillyness to the limit, I would not go in dept about what things are involved 'cause you can imagine what I mean, try to see my point and you'll understand why normally the difference in opinions 'about this show is so radical. Feel free to elaborate in this, althoug this is not a M7 tread it's been a while since we had a civilized tread 'bout it. Again just my 0.02 cents

Later

[macplus]

Funny that Macross 7 is the longest Macross series of all:lol:

And listening to Basara is good!!!

The answer is simple, Macross 7 atracted a big fandom.. all the people who loved Pokemon, Digimon, Sailor Moon and the rest of those sissy, lame, girlie and geek shows felt at home in M7... so Kawamori made a lot of money out of their misery and continued doing the show... it's called a milking cow..... oh crap! here I go again!!!

Edited November 24, 2004 by macplus

[Keith]

Perhaps you have a more complicated vision of things, or perhaps I do. When you say things like you enjoyed the story (on paper) and then didn't like it, I can't help but think you're dissagreeing with superficial aspects. i.e. non-miolitary colored Valkyries & alternate control schemes. It also doesn't help argue against my previous "juvenile" statement when you say things like "raped everything i loved about Macross."

If you thought the story was great, where's the argument now?

[macplus]

Perhaps you have a more complicated vision of things, or perhaps I do. When you say things like you enjoyed the story (on paper) and then didn't like it, I can't help but think you're dissagreeing with superficial aspects. i.e. non-miolitary colored Valkyries & alternate control schemes. It also doesn't help argue against my previous "juvenile" statement when you say things like "raped everything i loved about Macross."

If you thought the story was great, where's the argument now?

I agree with you 'bout the "raped everything i blah blah " it's a bad choice of words, you made your point and I accept it, however when I say that I like the story but not the show, what I mean is that the story looks good, but the way it is presented it's not, I'll give you an example, I thought that "the lord of the rings" was great when I read the first book years ago, however when I saw the movie I felt that it didn't deliver with the quality the story deserved, and that it used a lot of filler on video game-like special FX, same thing with M7 but in this case with all what we've already discussed a million times in earlier treads. By the way, I also agree that the problem in M7 lies in the superficial aspects, however you put that as if they're not important, actually they're 'cause it's what plays with our senses, and the way we imagine the series to put it simply, is like buying a car, let's say a Chevy with a Mercedes engine... the core is great, but the rest is not on the same league, do I make my point here? Now in the case of M7 they even went farther and painted the car PINK!!!!

By the way, I drive an old Chevy.. that's why I used that example..hehehe!

Edited November 24, 2004 by macplus

[Radd]

In Macross 7, sound is never "heard" in space.

I'm sorry if I was not clear, I did not mean to say that sound was literally heard in space in Macross 7, what I meant was that in M7 along with nearly every single series or movie set in space takes liberties and makes embellishments with the story to present effects where none, realisticly, would be. Sound in space. We hear it all the time in plenty of shows, but by no means do we take this to mean that the film's creators want us to believe that somehow sound is actually being heard in a vaccuum.

That is quite simply how I see the glowing lights and other manifestations of spiritua in M7, when the effects are nothing more than what we see in reality and what we've seen in previous Macross shows.

The "energy" or whatever you want to call it that we feel when listening to music, playing videogames, getting into fights, watching an entertaining show, writing a book, drawing a picture, or whatever it is that really motivates you, makes you feel alive, it's something the Protodevlin need to survive. Yet the concept of creating it themselves is completely alien to them, along with the cultural aspects.

Macplus, you are welcome to your opinion, but keep in mind that it is your opinion. It is not fact, no matter how much you keep telling yourself and others that it is. I even agree with you on some things on how the show was presented. In my case, however, the merits of the story, the strong character developement, the themes of the show, and how it played out in it's entirety outweighed my own grievances with some of the mech designs, and the early story progression.

In conversations such was the one I was having with Ewilen, I was simply explaining how I interpreted what was shown in the actual series. There was no mention as to the merits or flaws of the series, no comments on what either of us felt about the series. I don't expect anything I say in that regard to influence how anyone else feels towards the show, I am just offering an alternative view to what was presented.

[Keith]

I don't know, a 57 Chevy with a mercedes engine would be pretty sweet, as wood a nomad, or hell, a suped up (inside) 59 Cadilac, with classic exterior.

As for 7, I don't see where it was painted "pink" (aside from the Pink Peckers & VF-11 MAXL Kai). The guitar's were merely alternate control schemes (they weren't played in order to fly), the color's on the SF Valkyries were just that,colors. The faces were far from offensive, etc.

[Prime]

Ah, a little too subtle...I thought the "baked Hory Froating Head" was the only joke.

Curse my inability to express myself with the written word!

As for M7, I just thought the dude with the wings was pretty funny looking.

[Montarvillois]

I for one don't care much about the story line. Sure the "magic" part is strange and has no direct link to the original series IMO but what the hell, just the fact that I am actualy watching transforming valks in 3d animation makes me happy.

I just think people are way yoo hard on M0.

[Prime]

Sure the "magic" part is strange and has no direct link to the original series IMO

I know what you are saying, but I think there is a link in the sense that we learn more about the Protoculture, which does link it to the original series...

[TehPW]

Sure the "magic" part is strange and has no direct link to the original series IMO

I know what you are saying, but I think there is a link in the sense that we learn more about the Protoculture, which does link it to the original series...

Ok, woody's two cents on M0 ep 5: (it's already been discussed and 28 pages of posts, thats a roger that but what ever)

One: In the M0 Pefect collection disc 2, the bomb dropped in the end of Episode 4 was a fuel air bomb.

Two: Vector thrust used in close combat in Fighter Mode makes me drool and self~pleasure the Fanboy in me.

Three: The old kook of a Professor want to use Sara to create a 'song of creation', to end the war, presumable in the Anti-UN's favor as oppossed to simply ending hostilities.

Four: The ABH's of V-1 Division didn't put enough chains on the few pieces of Support Equipement that started skidding to the the Port deck edges of the carrier. Yeah, explain that one to the Air Boss.

Five: Simular to Episode 4 of Macross 2, where Silvie Genus's VF-2SS's head module gets destroyed by a incoming micro-missle, Shin's VF-0A's head eats a bullet from the side, thankfully. i assume there is some means of self decapatation of the damaged module to ensure transformation is still possible. it's this event that finally forces Sara over the edge to power up the birdman. later on you see the lower portion intact. the angles are kinda bad to determine the exact damage...

Six: Man's hatred and desire for violence is the song of destruction, the catalist to activate the Birdman, who destroys by Reflex beams, it's wings forming the coil usually required to use such energies. Liked the flower effect of the destroyed ships before their aft weapons magazine ignite from the shock.

Seven: too many things occur then to make understanding then. it's more.... phylisophical than actually 'It happened'. Shin becomes the 'Birdman', for what ever purpose, will likely be unknown. but japanesse are know for putting vague 'you could think of a 100 different directions' deals like that.

Overall, excellent ending.

So say, Pensive.

[chrono]

I've finally finished watching this OVA series.

Sw33tness defined!

Sure it was abit spotty on plot, dialogue, 3D, and animations. But then EVERY anime I've seen had some "could've been better IF..." in them.

I loved how they perfectly defined both the UN and the AUN's stances! That alone made for some good story, but then they added in the defacto destruction of not only a culture but of individual viewpoints of faith and 'damn' you were just waist deep in story! That's not even talking about the clear tie-ins with the established Macross-verse with the Protoculture or was it the ProtoDevilin? (or maybe it was the Invid.... ) and the establishing of character depth for secondary character! The story was excellent with it's NEVER showing who was a villian and who was a hero. It was a simple story about survival.

I was happy as an elephant(or pig) rolling in mud!!!

The dogfights were simply incredible and will be hard to surpass any time in the future. The 3d work was beyond INCREDIBLE(pun intended)! Those textures would make Transformers weep in shame. I can truely say in the first few transforming fights those planes looked like moving painting.

[Black Valkyrie]

What a terrible ending for Macross, it`s shame that Roy is in this OVA Kawamori WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING

OK Kawamori the next time you make a new Macross remove the VF`s and put magical elements they way you like it

I don`t but since M7 and now M0 I`m starting to pull my self away from Macross franchise Hmm........

[CoryHolmes]

What a terrible ending for Macross, it`s shame that Roy is in this OVA Kawamori WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING

OK Kawamori the next time you make a new Macross remove the VF`s and put magical elements they way you like it

I don`t but since M7 and now M0 I`m starting to pull my self away from Macross franchise Hmm........

That is so very, very true.

The dogfights were technically entertaining, though I found the direction of said sequences to be very lacking. The jittery camera and quick cuts were supposed to make for added suspence, but all it really did was irritate me.

The CGI work was astounding. For the first time in any anime or cartoon, I actually felt like the aircraft, especially the Tomcats in Ep. 1, were actually flying and not just animated cells on a background.

But as for the story and characters... well, I just lump Macross Zero in with Macross 7 and try my best to ignore their influences on the Macross continuity.

Does Macross Zero fit into the overall story? Yes. Does it add anything substantial to the overall story? That's a little more iffy in my book. And Mac0 and Mac7 are changing the Macross story from start to finish, and I'm not totally certain I like what this story is shaping up to be.

[Radd]

I won't rehash the same arguments we've all been over time and again, but I thought I would point out that it's simply amazing at the difference of opinions each new Macross seems to get, and it's not like it's the same people taking the same sides, either.

[Jemstone]

APHOS = Protoculture Flowers

Everyone happy now in both camps?

[Prime]

I won't rehash the same arguments we've all been over time and again, but I thought I would point out that it's simply amazing at the difference of opinions each new Macross seems to get, and it's not like it's the same people taking the same sides, either.

Very true. I really enjoyed Macross Zero, and after a second viewing I found the "magical" (for lack of a better term) much more acceptable. I didn't like Macross 7 at all.

Since it is used as part of the Protoculture story elements, it made more sense to me at least. I think Kawamori did a better job of tying those things into "reality." Just things like the scientists looking at the AFOS and comparing systems to the Macross. Because of this, the whole floating ships and such made more sense in terms of the "science." The Protoculture was so far advanced it can only seem like magic to humankind. Obviously other's milage may very, but I think that the show makes the magic stuff as real as possible. And I come from the "don't like magic in Macross" camp.

[Keith]

I still don't see what the problem is. If people can accept "the force" in star wars, why not the Spiritia phenomenon in Macross?

[KingNor]

its all in the delivery, macross's delivery of "spirita" as general J-pop weirdness doesn't work for me.

and, here we go again, i didn't see anything remotely resembling spirita the way it's represented in later serise in the original SDF. SDF was about cultures meeting, not sophisticated life energys and song magic. rinse repeat.

bad kitty.

[Keith]

Consider the original series just the prelude before everything busts wide-open. Besides which, there's nothing in the original series which prevents such future developements from occuring.

[CoryHolmes]

Exactly what KingNor said. The original show didn't have any of this stuff in it, and while you're absolutly right in that it doesn't preclude it from existing, it doesn't lay the foundation for it, either.

The Force in Star Wars is acceptable because that was in the storyline right from the start. Same with the mysticsm in Evangelion, the NewTypes in most of the Gundam stories, the magic in Lord of the Rings... it's alright because those were intrinsic elements of the plots and stories, not seemingly (please note that word) tacked on later on.

[memphis]

i think there was a gap between EP 4 & 5.....maybe the movie edition will be fix it up...

[Prime]

Exactly what KingNor said. The original show didn't have any of this stuff in it, and while you're absolutly right in that it doesn't preclude it from existing, it doesn't lay the foundation for it, either.

The Force in Star Wars is acceptable because that was in the storyline right from the start. Same with the mysticsm in Evangelion, the NewTypes in most of the Gundam stories, the magic in Lord of the Rings... it's alright because those were intrinsic elements of the plots and stories, not seemingly (please note that word) tacked on later on.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Although I really don't have a big problem with the spiritia in itself. I just found Macross 7's heavily repeated J-pop songs, and some bizarre looking and acting characters and Valkyries to be too much of a deviation from the original Macross and Plus that got me into the series in the first place. I like those ones because of the sense of "realism" that they establish at the beginning.

Just my take...

[ewilen]

Yup. I like M7 & M0, but as I've said before, the "rules changed" significantly, and I can understand why it might put off some fans of the earlier series. I'm sure there are people who are fans of both The Exorcist and The Godfather, but they'd be awfully pissed if a future Godfather movie had the Don fighting a bunch of devils.

[Prime]

a future Godfather movie had the Don fighting a bunch of devils.

Kick ass!!

[Renato]

Yup. I like M7 & M0, but as I've said before, the "rules changed" significantly, and I can understand why it might put off some fans of the earlier series. I'm sure there are people who are fans of both The Exorcist and The Godfather, but they'd be awfully pissed if a future Godfather movie had the Don fighting a bunch of devils.

Two (and a half) words: Aliens vs. Predator.

And even Robotech worked.

[TheLoneWolf]

I still don't see what the problem is. If people can accept "the force" in star wars, why not the Spiritia phenomenon in Macross?

That's an easy one:

Star Wars is science-fantasy. SDF Macross is science-fiction.

I can imagine Star Wars fans would be upset if Lucas changed genres on them.

[Keith]

I think the problem is that you're judging things by amero-centric story standards. The fact of the matter is, these concepts are far from alien & japanese series, and in fact, run rather rampant. I've pointed out on various occasions where the foundation for them was in the TV series, and when it comes right down to it, if you think giant robots & genetically engineered aliens that are whoo'd by emotions is hard sci-fi, then you've been diluting yourself all these years.

Besides which, going back to the Gundam example, the awareness of Newtypes & Newtype abilities didn't take effect until deep into its run. Amuro was touted as just being a luckily skilled pilot until much later when his Newtype abilities were revealed. Considering the nature of that story specifically, as well as Kawamori & Mikimoto's infatuation with it, no one should be surprised with the direction the Macross story has taken.

[TheLoneWolf]

I think the problem is that you're judging things by amero-centric story standards.

Then why are you comparing an American series (Star Wars) with a Japanese one (Macross)?

I still don't see what the problem is. If people can accept "the force" in star wars, why not the Spiritia phenomenon in Macross?

We're discussing Macross here, let's leave Gundam in the Other Anime forum.