MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[ewilen]

Actually, it says " conjectured to be over several ten thousand years old." The idea behind that dialog was to indicate that AFOS was really, really, really, really, really, really, really.... old. Which means they can accurately guess only up to a certain point on how old it was. It is probably older but they cannot accurately determine how old that thing is.

Both the Infusion sub and the crappy HK DVD sub actually has Aries saying (about 13 minutes into ep. 1) that the actual age is classified but it's estimated to be tens of thousands of years old. I'm not in a position to say if this is exactly what the original Japanese says; also, it could be that Aries has been ordered to give a fake age in her presentation.

In any case, your explanation makes sense. I just confirmed that e.g. radiocarbon dating has an upper limit of 50,000 years before present. (In the subs, Aries makes reference to "magnetic properties" or something like that, and the DNA of the plankton, but--whatever.)

[Noyhauser]

I'm sorry treatment, but I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you have said these last two pages. Almost everybody on here even me AND Agent one (shocking!) agree that DYRL did not do a great job on story. If anything its pacing was completely off.

As I said earlier in this thread, to me Anime is a medium to tell a story, and I'd rather watch piss poor animation with a great story than amazing animation with terrible storytelling. Maybe you enjoy it for its superficiality but I don't. My favorite series is Heldensagen Vom Kosmenief, and its got some poor animation going for it. However its absolutely brilliant as a story, and I appreciate it on those grounds. And SDF as well. However in all honesty, DYRL would not have the same allure if it was not preceeded by SDF.

Take for example Misa. Hikaru's choice in SDF makes WAAAAAAAY more sense then it does in DYRL to go with Misa. In DYRL, shes a cold hearted Bxtch most of the movie, then for 30 seconds shows vulnerablilty and hooks up with Hikaru. And from this He bases his "deep love" for her over Minmay? Uhhh yeah. In the movie, Minmay is a far more mature girl, who makes her feelings for Hikaru clear and treats him with affection.

In SDF Minmay is really a immature dithering girl that can't make up her mind. We really get a sense of that. Hikaru who is also immature at the beggining of the movie likes her. But as he gets older he falls more and more for misa (and goes through several important experiences with her.) Then Hikaru falls back on his old ways after the space war... but makes the right choice at the end. It makes far more sense in SDF than DYRL.

Every other part of the story makes far more sense in SDF. Claudia's relationship with Roy, Max's relationship with Millia. (Wow she's a 60 foot tall chick with green hair that tried to kill me... OMG I MUST HAVE HER), the series of events (why did they annahilate earth?). The proof to me was when I showed my friend DYRL and he was like... huh? He then watched SDF after and was like... ahhhh I get it.

SDF-TV was just a weak drawn-out/dragged-out anime series that's really only about the story between Hikaru's and Minmay's development. Every other character in TV was pretty much dependent on what those two characters were doing and not doing. It would've fit just perfectly in just 24-26 episodes rather than 36 eps.

Yeah Max was sooooo dependant on Minmay and hikaru to get married. And Roy's and Kazikazi death all had to do with their relationship, oh and Boldolza blew up earth because he couldn't have minmay

moreover they are the MAIN CHARACTERS. This isn't War and Peace that has a cast of millions. Of course they are going to focus on them

I think nostalgia is clouding your admiration for SDF-TV and are just refusing to acknowledge that it's art and animation only made it obvious of how it's really just an average story for an anime-production.

I can't even begin to tell you what an ignorant statement that is. Compared to other series of the day, Macross blew others out of the water. Even the vaunted Gundam series had terrible animation and lulls, and it STILL is regarded as a classic. Macross attempts to inject a sense of realism (compared to Gundam which was compeletely unrealistic) was extremely well recieved, as was its somewhat gritty portrail of war. Almost all Japanese anime series today use elements of its production, hell next gundam (Zeta) pretty well copied the whole transformable robot idea. The love triange was a huge aspect of its popularity as well.

By your definition, the Seven Samurai, is really just a sub average movie because everybody have developed better filming and storytelling techniques since 1954, and have ripped off the story and made it better since then

You may not like SDF, fine thats your opinion. but disregarding the influence that it had is just willful ignorance, if you ask me.

Edited November 6, 2004 by Noyhauser

[KingNor]

I feel DYRL is the second greatest movie ever created, but I have to agree with some here, it doesn't stand alone well. If you haven't seen SDFM they you are likely to be confused.

i just watched dyrl with a few friends the other day. they had NO idea what was going on.

when milla fell out of her q-rau they all said "wtf the girls are big too!?!?! "

I firmly stand by the opinion that dryl only works because of the tv serise, and the fact that it doesn't match the tv serise storyline hurts both showings in my opinion.

[ewilen]

Before we get back to M0, I just want to say that the pro-SDF Macross faction is giving away a little too much in the "quality of animation" department. There's a lot of crappy animation in the TV series, but there are also some great sequences, such as the TV version of the Milia/Max fight. Moreover, there are scenes that may have lacked technical flash but were still very effective visually. And overall, the character and mecha designs were already great, even if they often weren't animated (or even drawn) very well by AnimeFriends/StarPro.

Beyond that, cartoons are about a lot more than visual technique. They're a medium in themselves; as many here have commented, there are things that simply come across better in cartoon form than in life action. So, just as there are great black and white movies which will always be considered classics (Casablanca, It's a Wonderful Life; even silents, like Chaplin) because they wrung the maximum story out of the existing film technology, SDF Macross stands as a great cartoon regardless of the fact that it's made with early-80's Japanese TV-quality animation.

So...I've finally watched the whole of M0 in one sitting, and I'm now convinced--of all Macross productions, the only one I'd put ahead of it is SDF Macross. DYRL and M+ are still great but DYRL doesn't have the same depth while M+ doesn't have as much heart. I enjoy M7 but I'm with those who think it has pacing problems and an overall tone which is somewhat juvenile.

[takatoys]

I liked M0 until episode 3. I did not like the magical elements in episode 4. I thought the last two episodes would include more fight sequences and the original vf-1s that we all love. But instead, we get more of the super natural elements and confusing plot. Episode 5 finished with too many questions to answer.

I hope kawamori someday remakes the original Macross series with CG animation. That would be so cool.

[treatment]

I'm sorry treatment, but I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you have said these last two pages. Almost everybody on here even me AND Agent one (shocking!) agree that DYRL did not do a great job on story. If anything its pacing was completely off.

Dunno what pacing you're talking about, but I think you're looking at it from TV-fan pov. It'll be off coz you expected this and that based on the TV, but you find out the DYRL-movie doesn't do that. Depending on your pov, that's a smarter move by Kawamori for me.

As I said earlier in this thread, to me Anime is a medium to tell a story, and I'd rather watch piss poor animation with a great story than amazing animation with terrible storytelling.  Maybe you enjoy it for its superficiality but I don't. My favorite series is Heldensagen Vom Kosmenief, and its got some poor animation going for it. However its absolutely brilliant as a story, and I appreciate it on those grounds. And SDF as well.

To each his own. I'd already listed why I like DYRL better than TV. They're not superficial reasons at all. They're actually well-grounded. I guess I'm just always more satisfied with a story if the animation is just good or even just average. The animation in TV was a mixed bag of some good (studio nue) and some bad (animefriend).

However in all honesty, DYRL would not have the same allure if it was not preceeded by SDF.

All other Macross-series will not have the same allure without having some familiarity from SDF-TV. One will ask what the heck's that big robot-thingy ship taken over by Sharon and why was it important. In M7, who was Max and Milia and why were they important.

So you see, that argument just doesn't cut it to apply or even discriminate against DYRL. All Macross canon-series requires some prior familiarity with SDF-TV stuff.

Take for example Misa. Hikaru's choice in SDF makes WAAAAAAAY more sense then it does in DYRL to go with Misa. In DYRL, shes a cold hearted Bxtch most of the movie, then for 30 seconds shows vulnerablilty and hooks up with Hikaru. And from this He bases his "deep love" for her over Minmay? Uhhh yeah.

She's a what???

The only time she got bitchy in the movie was in the final emo-confrontation with Hikaru. That was it. The whole time, she was this love-sick girl.

And fwiw, Hikaru's choice in DYRL was far more logical and more profound. His brazen AWOL-ness cause their capture and Roy's death. He failed to save Minmay and he lived thru the guilt-trip that he thought she will be killed as well like Roy. He prolly thought that since Minmay's dead, he made up his mind to be with Misa. Then Minmay showed up alive. He's caught between a rock and hard place. Quite unlike the TV-series where Misa pretty much was stalking him.

In the movie, Minmay is a far more mature girl, who makes her feelings for Hikaru clear and treats him with affection.

As it should've been, instead of dragging him along and being clueless about Hikaru's feelings like in the TV. There was no time to drag out the romance the way the TV did because of the realistic urgency of the situation in DYRL against the dragged out situations in TV.

In SDF Minmay is really a immature dithering girl that can't make up her mind. We really get a sense of that. Hikaru who is also immature at the beggining of the movie likes her. But as he gets older he falls more and more for misa (and goes through several important experiences with her.) Then Hikaru falls back on his old ways after the space war... but makes the right choice at the end. It makes far more sense in SDF than DYRL.

That's all well and good, dude. I'd already stated that TV was all about Hikaru's and Minmay's romance to me.

Every other part of the story makes far more sense in SDF. Claudia's relationship with Roy, Max's relationship with Millia. (Wow she's a 60 foot tall chick with green hair that tried to kill me... OMG I MUST HAVE HER), the series of events (why did they annahilate earth?).

Same thing as the TV. Milia tried to kill Max. Twice. Max was just impressed with her in both series. He just didn't have a choice to be macronized since he was captured and there was no way out of that battleship for him.

As with Roy and Claudia, *shrugs*. I didn't care about the backstory between them. To me, Roy was the badass leader. The one to be emulated and succeeded by Hikaru. That's just about it.

The proof to me was when I showed my friend DYRL and he was like... huh? He then watched SDF after and was like... ahhhh I get it.

I got different anecdotes than you, so we shall just leave anecdotal stuff out of the table.

SDF-TV was just a weak drawn-out/dragged-out anime series that's really only about the story between Hikaru's and Minmay's development. Every other character in TV was pretty much dependent on what those two characters were doing and not doing. It would've fit just perfectly in just 24-26 episodes rather than 36 eps.

Yeah Max was sooooo dependant on Minmay and hikaru to get married. And Roy's and Kazikazi death all had to do with their relationship, oh and Boldolza blew up earth because he couldn't have minmay

Max asked Hikaru what to do and stuff wrt to women in TV. In DYRL, he didn't have to do that and even jabs Hikaru for having Minmay before and then Misa now.

Roy died in TV because he just got careless. He took over Hikaru's team so that Hikaru does not have to do anything and get him to bug out from the hospital.

Bodolza tried to blow up the earth and Breetai's fleet because they were infected by the protoculture-stuff, of which Minmay was the forefront symbol.

That was all simple and quite dependent on Hikaru's and Minmay's actions and inactions.

moreover they are the MAIN CHARACTERS. This isn't War and Peace that has a cast of millions. Of course they are going to focus on them

As should properly be. The side-stories were interesting, but that's just tv-syndrome to drag out the broadcast and keep the money flowing in.

I think nostalgia is clouding your admiration for SDF-TV and are just refusing to acknowledge that it's art and animation only made it obvious of how it's really just an average story for an anime-production.

I can't even begin to tell you what an ignorant statement that is.

No, that's not ignorant. That's an informed and objective view of Macross series.

Compared to other series of the day, Macross blew others out of the water. Even the vaunted Gundam series had terrible animation and lulls, and it STILL is regarded as a classic. Macross attempts to inject a sense of realism (compared to Gundam which was compeletely unrealistic) was extremely well recieved, as was its somewhat gritty portrail of war. Almost all Japanese anime series today use elements of its production, hell next gundam (Zeta) pretty well copied the whole transformable robot idea. The love triange was a huge aspect of its popularity as well.

*sigh*. You know, I dunno if you actually did watched Macross and it's contemporaries when they were all being shown the first time around to actually make a statement like that.

I always had this theory about why Gundam still suckered in fans (jaded fans and newbies) even tho it's almost always the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline. And I found that, despite the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline, the Gundam-animation just gets better and better with each re-implementation of the same boring base-storyline of 0079.

By your definition, the Seven Samurai, is really just a sub average movie because everybody have developed  better filming and storytelling techniques since 1954, and have ripped off the story and made it better since then

*sigh* . that's just irrelevant tangent since we're talking about animation here, not live-action.

You may not like SDF, fine thats your opinion. but disregarding the influence that it had is just willful ignorance, if you ask me.

Actually, I like SDF-TV. It's just that I don't worship it as the end-all/be-all of Macross like you guys do. I don't view it with rose-colored glasses and stuff. I know it's faults and I accept them and don't deny those faults. That's why I like DYRL better than TV because DYRL pretty much corrected the faults found in TV.

How are all these related to Zero, then. Well, Zero implements and continues the seriousness-level and the animation-level found in DYRL and Plus. Some people would rather have a longer series. I'm with that. That's all fine and good wants.

But the thing is, from how much their budget was for Zero, Kawamori and his staff did a pretty good job of presenting a new Macross-based series. Just like what he did with DYRL and Plus. Zero is tight, serious, wasn't kiddie-fied and technically kickass just like DYRL and Plus were.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The only time she got bitchy in the movie was in the final emo-confrontation with Hikaru. That was it. The whole time, she was this love-sick girl.

Actually early on, she was kind of playing the tough fearless superior (partly she feels as if men like hikaru insult her for 'being a woman') and applying this to her personal life. (pretty much faithful to the tv series imo) I found her to be the type of person that you wouldn't be able to relax around which is why she broke down and acted all feminine on earth and pretended that there was food to eat and drinks to drink. Remember Roy and Hikaru both wish she would just act more like a woman. It was almost too much for her to keep the tough act up anymore after the realisation that she wasn't in control, she wasn't able to ensure victory, she wasn't able to be perfect as she so wanted to be. Like Sara in mac 0, she's human like the rest of us and has feelings too. (and not just to her job and the sdf1 ) That's what I like about the characters they grow on you over time. The theme I see is like in macross +, the reckless extroverted types always get to teach the introverted ones a lesson.

But in the tv series we are exposed to the reasons she acts the way she does: Because she wanted to follow in the footsteps of her dad and make a name for herself and be proud and because of her former boyfriend. In the movie we just see a flashback in her daydream which isn't as detailed or doesn't get the audiences sympathy as much.

About her toughness and need to live up to her name: This is very interesting to me because her dad was not perfect. He made big mistakes by risking human lives just so he could see if he could take a strong position in future negotiations with the Zentradi. I thought Global was a more fitting father to misa than her own dad was. This sort of stuff is better suited for tv series where "it is long and dragged out". You get to be the fly on the wall and see thier life story and how they can change. Audiences can then sympathise with them better this way because it is all a rollercoaster ride and we were there riding on it with the characters. It's like in an earlier episode you can say: God this characters sucks he/she is such a jerk. But then later you think: "Yeah I'm starting to feel for them now that I know what a farked up history they must have had growing up and how they still hold onto demons with part of them living in thier past. Given the circumstances I would have behaved the same way if I were in thier shoes now.." This is what movies and tv shows can do, they may change your real life perceptions of certain types of people over time.

As it should've been, instead of dragging him along and being clueless about Hikaru's feelings like in the TV. There was no time to drag out the romance the way the TV did because of the realistic urgency of the situation in DYRL against the dragged out situations in TV.

I think they are both good. I didn't necessarily think one was better than the other just that they were different and unique ways of showing how a career can get in the way of a relationship and split two people apart.

If you had a girlfriend who suddenly became famous and was so busy that her fans, relatives, and work got more attention than little old you, you would slowly feel insignificant and bitter that you were no longer an important part of her life. You would still love her, but also be resentful that you chose to be in the military when part of the reason you chose to be in the military was to be the noble knight trying to protect her. I guess the lesson the tv series is that people need to do things for reasons other than love and try to apply it on a bigger macrocosmic level.

ie Minmay no longer sang just for fans but for sdf1 and the people to survive, (the world was depending on her to sing) Hikaru no longer served in the military just to protect minmay, and instead decided it was for bigger reasons, the whole human race was relying on him in a herioc messianic sense. (which is part of the reason I think they play the little white white dragon theme song for him in the episode where they defeat bodolza, to mock the hero archtype in the movie by the same name.)

In the movie the theme was women trying to overpower men and denying thier femininity toward them in thier personal life. (the zentradi women fighting the zentradi men was similar to misa fighting hikaru because of this superiority complex where thier sex is used to put people in thier place. "Hmph! Does he think men are better than women?!" But it still stays true to the Microcosmic level being applied on the macroscosmic level like the series.

I liked both but like I said, they complement each other.

For exaample I thought the tv series helped explain better why they needed giant robots (to fight giants of course) why the sdf1 wasn't being destroyed in those 6 months when the zentradi clearly outnumber them, why civilians were being brought onboard a ship when it was in danger of attacks, why the humans didn't just fold thier asses out of the harms way of the zentradi. (in the tv series the fold generators just vanaished but at least we know this. In the movie: no explanation).

Movies will always be easier on the eyes (for example I loved transformers the movie, but didn't much like the tv series that much) but remember: it is the series that gets people interested in the first place which decides whether a movie should even be made. I think writers, mecha designers, guys who come up with the conepts for the battle scenes, and character designers play an equally important part to making something a timeless classic as much as the quality of the animation does. If the characters are too flat and cookiecutter, the dialogue cheesy, the mecha design unappealing, I don't care how great the animation looks, I probably won't be fanatical enough to want to see a movie of that thing made.

Edited November 7, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[treatment]

The only time she got bitchy in the movie was in the final emo-confrontation with Hikaru. That was it. The whole time, she was this love-sick girl.

Actually early on, she was kind of playing the tough fearless superior (partly she feels as if men like hikaru insult her for 'being a woman') and applying this to her personal life. (pretty much faithful to the tv series imo) I found her to be the type of person that you wouldn't be able to relax around which is why she broke down and acted all feminine on earth and pretended that there was food to eat and drinks to drink. Remember Roy and Hikaru both wish she would just act more like a woman. It was almost too much for her to keep the tough act up anymore after the realisation that she wasn't in control, she wasn't able to ensure victory, she wasn't able to be perfect as she so wanted to be. Like Sara in mac 0, she's human like the rest of us and has feelings too. (and not just to her job and the sdf1 ) That's what I like about the characters they grow on you over time. The theme I see is like in macross +, the reckless extroverted types always get to teach the introverted ones a lesson.

Quite exactly. Misa was playing the tough commanding-officer role so she had to be "bitchy" in order to exert control and authority over her subordinates like Hikaru. If she didn't, then her subordinates will be walking all over her, just like in the real-life military orgs. I rather not really call that role of her's as "bitchy", but rather just hard-coded military-discipline. That's her training.

She broke down during their time on earth when she finally resigned herself that everyone else was gone. That particular scene was moving in that, despite being the only ones left on earth, Misa still had humanity in her and acted out the civilized way humans live, instead of reverting to barbarism.

She got bitchy and whiny with Hikaru during the triangle-breakup and that's why Hikaru had to tell her to basically shut up and listen to him.

In the tv series we are exposed to the reasons she acts the way she does: Because she wanted to follow in the footsteps of her dad and make a name for herself and be proud. This is very interesting to me because her dad was not perfect. He made big mistakes by risking human lives just so he could see if he could take a strong position in future negotiations with the Zentradi. I thought Global was a more fitting father to misa than her own dad was. This sort of stuff is better suited for tv series where "it is long and dragged out".

Quite true, but in the end, it was all because of Hikaru and in how she wanted Hikaru to like her more than Minmay that she had to change her hard stoic ways.

As it should've been, instead of dragging him along and being clueless about Hikaru's feelings like in the TV. There was no time to drag out the romance the way the TV did because of the realistic urgency of the situation in DYRL against the dragged out situations in TV.

I think they are both good. I didn't necessarily think one was better than the other just that they were different and unique ways of showing how a career can get in the way of a relationship and split two people apart.

If you had a girlfriend who suddenly became famous and was so busy that her fans, relatives, and work got more attention than little old you, you would slowly feel insignificant and bitter that you were no longer an important part of her life. You would still love her, but also be resentful that you chose to be in the military when part of the reason you chose to be in the military was to be the noble knight trying to protect her. I guess the lesson the tv series is that people need to do things for reasons other than love and try to apply it on a bigger macrocosmic level.

I just like it better when Minmay was more decisive and more aggressive than the timid and fickle version of the TV. I just like it better the way Misa did not stalk Hikaru in the movie. I just like it better that Hikaru's not as clueless as he was in the TV.

ie Minmay no longer sang just for fans but for sdf1 and the people to survive, (the world was depending on her to sing) Hikaru no longer served in the military just to protect minmay, and instead decided it was for bigger reasons, the whole human race was relying on him in a herioc messianic sense. (which is part of the reason I think they play the little white white dragon theme song for him in the episode where they defeat bodolza, to mock the hero archtype in the movie by the same name.)

Which was wonderfully and better expressed and explained to Minmay by Hikaru in DYRL. Stop being selfish and think about the sacrifices made, i.e. Roy and Kakizaki's deaths.

In TV's version, it was like an unceremonious dumping of Minmay. I mean, she deserved it and all, but c'mon Hikaru! You just had a x'mas lay (speculation. ) with the woman you'd always wanted! I guess I thought it was just so campy for Minmay to give up like that.

The movie and series complement each other.

For exmaple I thought the tv series helped explain better why they needed giant robots (to fight giants of course) why the sdf1 wasn't being destroyed in those 6 months when the zentradi clearly outnumber them, why civilians were being brought onboard a ship when it was in danger of attacks, why the humans didn't just fold thier asses out of the harms way of the zentradi. (in the tv series the fold generators just vanaished but at least we know this. In the movie: no explanation).

That's a good establishment from the TV but it just always reminded me of Gundam and stuff. In DYRL, it was just good to me that they didn't explain it and get the watchers to focus on better things in the movie.

Movies will always be easier on the eyes (for example I loved transformers the movie, but didn't much like the tv series that much) but it is the series that gets people interested in the first place which decides whether a movie should even be made. I think writers, mecha designers, guy who come up with the conepts for the battle scenes, and character designers play an equally important part to making something a classic as much as the quality of the animation does. If the characters are too flat and cookiecutter, the dialogue cheesy, the mecha design unappealing, I don't care how great the animation looks, I probably won't be fanatical enough to want to see a movie of that thing made.

Yup. That is why DYRL's so good because it delivered the goods in aces. The dialogues, the designs, the animation, and the music.

If DYRL had not delivered the goods, then it would've been like what happened to Macross-II ova's: Mostly scorned and stuff and a bad remake.

---

add: further on Misa and Zero.

If you think about it, both Shin and Sara acted out the same way as Misa did in DYRL. Both had to act their official roles despite their respective personal baggages/issues, i.e. hot-head ace and a virgin-priestess. Just to cover their respective personal vulnerabilities to feelings of love, just like Misa covered up her loss.

Bits and pieces were thrown in as to why Shin and Sara were like that in Zero, just like the brief Riber-moment in DYRL.

Edited November 7, 2004 by treatment

[ewilen]

I'll say this--the climactic decision by Hikaru in favor of Misa, combined with him convincing Minmay to sing for the final battle, is a better dramatic moment in DYRL compared to SDF Macross. (I wonder if they ever were going to do it that way in SDF, but had to change things at the last minute because the TV show was renewed for another 9 episodes.) But, again, most of the characterization which gives weight to the scene is carried over from the series; the movie itself does a poor job of showing why Minmay is so hooked on Hikaru, and why he should be so conflicted between her and Misa.

All IMO, of course.

[Noyhauser]

'll say this--the climactic decision by Hikaru in favor of Misa, combined with him convincing Minmay to sing for the final battle, is a better dramatic moment in DYRL compared to SDF Macross. (I wonder if they ever were going to do it that way in SDF, but had to change things at the last minute because the TV show was renewed for another 9 episodes.) But, again, most of the characterization which gives weight to the scene is carried over from the series; the movie itself does a poor job of showing why Minmay is so hooked on Hikaru, and why he should be so conflicted between her and Misa.

Exactly I don't think SDF had the same "dramatic conclusion" to the love triangle as DYRL (hell DYRL pulled out the SLOW MO for it...), but that was wholly because we knew that Misa and hikaru had such a deep relationship because of SDF. On its own there wasn't the same buildup of emotions, like the whole Misa cleaning up Hikaru's apartment scene, or Minmay's perfume. These things made it all the more deeper.

Dunno what pacing you're talking about, but I think you're looking at it from TV-fan pov. It'll be off coz you expected this and that based on the TV, but you find out the DYRL-movie doesn't do that. Depending on your pov, that's a smarter move by Kawamori for me.

Maybe if you read almost every other person's post on here, you'll see that its not the fact that DYRL is "different" that bothers people, it is the fact that it is dependent upon to TV series to give it depth and understanding. As a stand alone piece it is not as great a movie as it is with the foreknowledge of the TV series.

Also don't make vague assumptions that I'm or others maintain a biased TV-fan POV; thats been mine and most other people's point the whole way along. I don't know where you got the idea in your head that we worship it as the be all and end all. Realistically speaking, DYRL is just visual eyecandy for macross fans. Thats what Kawamori intended it to be, because he was unhappy about the budget he had for the TV series. I can't see how you can argue that a movie has a better storyline and character development than a TV series, especially a Japanese TV series at that (which focus more on storytelling than syndication). You don't get accustomed to characters after a short 15 minute scene, as you do over a 15 episode arc. The TV series gave the events of DYRL gravity and enhanced its meaning greatly.

All other Macross-series will not have the same allure without having some familiarity from SDF-TV. One will ask what the heck's that big robot-thingy ship taken over by Sharon and why was it important. In M7, who was Max and Milia and why were they important.

So you see, that argument just doesn't cut it to apply or even discriminate against DYRL. All Macross canon-series requires some prior familiarity with SDF-TV stuff.

Thats a complete distortion of the reality, which you are trying to do to prove your point. The history of SDF and DYRL are completely intertwineded because THEY DESCRIBE THE SAME EVENTS WITH THE SAME CHARACTERS. while one does in a TV series, the other one tries to cram it all into a 2 hour movie.

For the others, the links are far less tenuous. Plus and Zero only use minor plot elements from the others. Is it vital that you knew that the Macross was a famous battleship that won a war 40 years ago? Not really. It only shows up in the final episode, and its centrality to the story (ie without knowing its history your understanding of the story would be significantly impared) is minimal. Its completely not like the Ghost, or Sharon, who are the primary antagonists that were introduced throughout the movie/oav. What links are there between SDF and Zero that require you to know about the other, when zero is a prequel? Oh we got new technology from it? Actually I think watchers need to see macross 7 more to understand Macross zero than they do the TV series.

*sigh*. You know, I dunno if you actually did watched Macross and it's contemporaries when they were all being shown the first time around to actually make a statement like that.

I always had this theory about why Gundam still suckered in fans (jaded fans and newbies) even tho it's almost always the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline. And I found that, despite the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline, the Gundam-animation just gets better and better with each re-implementation of the same boring base-storyline of 0079.

Actually I did. Macross was one of the first series I ever watched, because I had family members sending me these tapes on beta. And I know from the people I have spoken to in Japan that it had a major impact. It is still highly regarded as an excellent piece of animation, poor flaws at all.

Edited November 7, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Keith]

While I agree that it's infinately better to have seen the TV series before DYRL, as a stand alone property, it's no worse than any other 2 hour sci-fi flick at setting up a quick & dirty backdrop. I think what most find jarring if anything is just how quickly things are jumped into in the beginning. The actual initial invasion is entirely glanced over. But then DYRL is clearly not meant to stand on its own to begin with. It's like special icing on an already great cake. Taken with its contemporaries, it's one of the few film adaptations of its time to use entirely new animation, which is why I believe they took such a large turn with the story (no longer held to re-used animation boundries like say the Gundam movies or first Yamato movie).

I place it more akin with the Galaxy Express movies, very similar in tone, but very different in execution from its TV series counterpart.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Quite exactly. Misa was playing the tough commanding-officer role so she had to be "bitchy" in order to exert control and authority over her subordinates like Hikaru. If she didn't, then her subordinates will be walking all over her, just like in the real-life military orgs. I rather not really call that role of her's as "bitchy", but rather just hard-coded military-discipline. That's her training.

Ah yes Hikaru deserves it, but even when she is off duty she pretends to still be superior. She wouldn't even relax at the bar with Roy. And in the Tv series, the bridge bunnies thought of her as loving her job a little too much, almost overstepping her own duty to tell others HOW to do thier own jobs instead of assigning them the task and leaving it at that. There's a certain loneliness in misa when she is given time off. You sense that in the tv series where she has to admit to herself that she has nobody to turn to for comfort. And if the war ever ended, I doubt she would find that much hapiness. Like sara and maybe even the zentradi she was "trained" that way.

But we want to know who the real misa hayes is. Like with Millard in Mac+ who pretended to be all strict and proper at first but then admits later he was once a reckless pilot like Isamu who broke all the rules. It brings more sense to his behaviour at the inquiry where Guld's rep was at stake and he defended him. Sometimes the people in charge are just plain wrong and need to be reminded that taking and following those orders are a means to an end. (ie saving lives. even global screwed up with the "folding near the planet" idea, which claudia was against all along, and which global had to admit was stupid because of all the people that were endangered. Imagine if you were one of the poor bastards on the promethues who died instantly? People no matter thier position, should be held accountable for mistakes too - everyone has flaws that makes them more likable.)

Also in the series we see that Global was close to Admiral Hayes and remarked about how Misa's own dad was a rule breaker too. ....so in the end it is up to misa to not be so bossy in her personal life if she is ever to find love. People in real life are turned off by that. It drives them away. Misa's bitchiness was not so much that she was good at her job and used her authority in the correct way, but in the fact that she thought she had to define her entire identity BY her job so that she wasn't being herself half the time. The tv series misa showed the vulnerability in interesting situations that the movie may not have been able to show due to time.

There was one thing that really summed up misa's loneliness: when her dad asked if she had found anyone special yet. Misa's attitude of going above the call of duty at the expense of opening her heart up to stop hiding behind this tough facade, had practically ensured she would become the old lady others had jokingly reffered to her as. Because in real life you would not want to go out with misa, she would scare you away. Once you "become your job" off duty, (this was not the real misa) others can't relax and it makes them feel uncomfortable to be around you. It's not just her reputation as the admiral's daughter, but the fact that she felt as if she had to live up to that repution amoungst her own friends, who just want her to be happy. She was miserable throughout the whole tv series until she finally hooked up with hikaru, you can tell by her expression and mood. A similar thing happened with Shin in episdoe 1 of macross 0, where he had not learnt to relax and laugh once in a while.

So, there are many occasions in the tv series where you really get to know the character in depth that a movie may not be able to cover. Just little things like when global had observed that misa hadn't been happy and was surprised to see her laugh during the episode where they are using a lift to go down the grand cannon, or that one 1 touching moment where she looked at max's baby and wanted to play with it, and everyone had noticed a "soft" misa - almost pitying her for not having a baby of her own.

I know it might seem boring if you've been over it several times, but it makes the characters that much more likeable if you've accepted both the series and movie as complementary. I would never try to watch the series in 1 go because it puts me to sleep but I would put it up there with DYRL as a classic despite the choppy frames, poorer action scenes, and less tightly-compressed timing of events. In the tv series it almost feels like 3 years had passed, just based on the 'long journey' where in the movie, the events seem more like 1 week. There's nothing wrong with either, but for many people, seeing characters slowly growing and maturing and revealing little details was as important as all the cool stuff in the movie. If I had never seen the tv series I don't think I would apreciate the movie as much.

Edited November 7, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Not magic, but energy. Spiritia, Protodevelin, etc, are all forms of naturally occuring "energy" in Macross. The Protoculture in search of new forms of high energy production tapped into a sub-universe to draw a new high powered source, and channel it into the Super Dimension Organ. This energy turned out to be a sentient form of life, and due to its newly found lack of sustenance, went for the only thing it/they could, i.e. life energy (Macross again working off of the basis that all living things give off energy). These beings also had the ability to possess other living things as well, and went straight for the most powerful bodies they could, which was easy since those same bodies were the intended purpose of their energy, i.e. the EVIL seires, which became the Protodevelin.

Is it possible that the floating rocks were a result of manipulation of energy through the subuniverse? We see sara able to see the Kaduns (as black shapes surrounding the weapons) when she is looking at the world through the afos. So she wasn't just being superstitious as others had thought. We see sara able to create an energy barrier around her body when she breaks the fall when shin and herself are descending after thier floating rock, which they are riding on, starts to crumble when Nora shoots it.

We also explicitly see them performing some kind of magic ritual on mao to bring her back to consciousness and awaken some new dormant power inside her.

So is is possible that those rocks with the glowing runes on them were a result of energy beings (nature spirits) that live in this sub universe who can be used to manipulate certain forces in nature? Like say, gravity, wind, the ability to heal the forest etc anything to explain all the magic (floating rocks) that happens in macross zero? I find it hard to believe Sara has some kind of technology inside her body that allows her to create barrier or levitate. I've always thought the emotions and intent were factors in whether the protection spell or curse would work. She is using the staff in a threatening way as if it would really do harm on a spiritual level. Keep in mind she has the usual heightened senses like seeing into the future (first episode where she foresees roy's fight in the battroid) seeing in the dark well, sensing danger from nature etc. (in the first episode she mentions kadun of water, which I assume are the antiun submarine and octos that would threaten shin if they didn't let him stay on thier land longer to heal - this came from her merely putting her hands next to her ears as if she can hear them)

When she is talking about kadun's and how they can possess the person, and when we actually see these things literally moving around in episode5 you got to wonder how they relate to the beings in the sub-universe. Everytime she sings she is creating energy for the plants to grow. But Hasford refers to this energy as not just vibrations in the air but something happening on the spiritual plane as well. ie meaning there is something magical happening too; as in like you would see happen with a healing 'spell'. The singing being the conjuring up of this spell, and the effect being a faster recovery from illness and disease.

Why does the singing have a healing effect? Why does the blood sample become active from the song? The rocks themselves can't be alive so it must have something to do with the person who can control and manipulate these sentient lifeforms living in this other universe. My theory has always been that the emotions and mind of the person play an important role and the spirits are atracted to you based on what emotions there are going on in the brain. (anger, hate, revenge etc being emotions where you are possessed by kadun. This offering an explaination as to why shin is sayin that sara is possessed in ep 5 because she is reacting angrily and causing destruction with it. While earlier the head glows in response to love. ie shin + mao kissing. so the feelings and intent of the person play a role in what can happen)

[mikeszekely]

I don't know how anyone can say that the resolution of the love triangle in SDF isn't dramatic. I mean, in DYRL, it was dramatic, but perhaps a little cliche. In SDF... well, if you consider the resolution to be around the same time frame, right before the final assault on Bodolza's base, then yeah, not so dramatic. But the fact is, that's not where it ends in SDF.

Instead, we have a situation where Misa and Hikaru have been getting closer and closer... but all the while, Hikaru never lost his infatuation with Minmay. He runs off during assingments to see her, he even mostly missed a date with Misa to see her. He lets Minmay stay with him when she runs away from Kaifun. And then, during Kamujin's last assault, the city is burning, Minmay is begging him not to go, and Hikaru realizes that he could never give up his life as a soldier, and that Misa is the one who belongs in that life, not Minmay. I think that scene is far better than when Hikaru is trying to get Minmay to sing the song in DYRL.

[mikeszekely]

Not magic, but energy. Spiritia, Protodevelin, etc, are all forms of naturally occuring "energy" in Macross. The Protoculture in search of new forms of high energy production tapped into a sub-universe to draw a new high powered source, and channel it into the Super Dimension Organ. This energy turned out to be a sentient form of life, and due to its newly found lack of sustenance, went for the only thing it/they could, i.e. life energy (Macross again working off of the basis that all living things give off energy). These beings also had the ability to possess other living things as well, and went straight for the most powerful bodies they could, which was easy since those same bodies were the intended purpose of their energy, i.e. the EVIL seires, which became the Protodevelin.

Is it possible that the floating rocks were a result of manipulation of energy through the subuniverse? We see sara able to see the Kaduns (as black shapes surrounding the weapons) when she is looking at the world through the afos. So she wasn't just being superstitious as others had thought. We see sara able to create an energy barrier around her body when she breaks the fall when shin and herself are descending after thier floating rock, which they are riding on, starts to crumble when Nora shoots it.

We also explicitly see them performing some kind of magic ritual on mao to bring her back to consciousness and awaken some new dormant power inside her.

So is is possible that those rocks with the glowing runes on them were a result of energy beings (nature spirits) that live in this sub universe who can be used to manipulate certain forces in nature? Like say, gravity, wind, the ability to heal the forest etc anything to explain all the magic (floating rocks) that happens in macross zero? I find it hard to believe Sara has some kind of technology inside her body that allows her to create barrier or levitate. I've always thought the emotions and intent were factors in whether the protection spell or curse would work. She is using the staff in a threatening way as if it would really do harm on a spiritual level. Keep in mind she has the usual heightened senses like seeing into the future (first episode where she foresees roy's fight in the battroid) seeing in the dark well, sensing danger from nature etc. (in the first episode she mentions kadun of water, which I assume are the antiun submarine and octos that would threaten shin if they didn't let him stay on thier land longer to heal - this came from her merely putting her hands next to her ears as if she can hear them)

When she is talking about kadun's and how they can possess the person, and when we actually see these things literally moving around in episode5 you got to wonder how they relate to the beings in the sub-universe. Everytime she sings she is creating energy for the plants to grow. But Hasford refers to this energy as not just vibrations in the air but something happening on the spiritual plane as well. ie meaning there is something magical happening too; as in like you would see happen with a healing 'spell'. The singing being the conjuring up of this spell, and the effect being a faster recovery from illness and disease.

Why does the singing have a healing effect? Why does the blood sample become active from the song? The rocks themselves can't be alive so it must have something to do with the person who can control and manipulate these sentient lifeforms living in this other universe. My theory has always been that the emotions and mind of the person play an important role and the spirits are atracted to you based on what emotions there are going on in the brain. (anger, hate, revenge etc being emotions where you are possessed by kadun. This offering an explaination as to why shin is sayin that sara is possessed in ep 5 because she is reacting angrily and causing destruction with it. While earlier the head glows in response to love. ie shin + mao kissing. so the feelings and intent of the person play a role in what can happen)

Now that's some good theory. The extradimensional beings are something that we accept as being real in Macross 7, as the origins of the Protodeviln. We're even given to understand that they're like the demons of Christian mythology, essentially spiritual or energy beings able to influence or possess other sentient creatures. But, perhaps because we thought that there are only seven Protodeviln, all accounted for, we took for granted that there are likely more energy beings in the extradimension, or that they might be able to have limited interaction with our physical world.

One of the things mentioned in Macross Zero is how many different cultures had similar myths about the end of the world, and the implication that those myths were actually refering to the AFOS. Other myths are also likely explainable in modern terms, and perhaps the Christian demons are explained by the extradimensional beings interacting with earth. And perhaps the Protoculture had a way of seeing or interacting with those beings. I mean, the experiment on earth occured after the Protodeviln inhabited the EVILs, if I recall correctly. Maybe awareness of extradimensional beings inspired the Protoculture to devise a way to look for them. Maybe Sara wasn't hallucinating when she saw the Kadun... maybe there were extradimensional beings there.

Now this makes you wonder... perhaps the Protoculture weren't really worried about humans spreading war throughout the galaxy. Maybe the extradimensional beings had an interest in humans, and the Protoculture were aware of it. And maybe they were actually concerned that it was the extradimensional beings that were making humans violent, and they were worried that the extradimensional beings would use the humans against the Stellar Republic in the conflict with the Supervision Army.

[ewilen]

I don't know how anyone can say that the resolution of the love triangle in SDF isn't dramatic.

That's not what I said. (And yes, the resolution in SDF M is in ep. 36.) I'm saying it's more dramatic in DYRL. You can say it's cliché (I personally don't think so) but the fact that everything comes to a head, i.e., the fate of mankind, Hikaru's duty, his choice between Misa and Minmay, Minmay's narcissism, and Minmay overcoming her narcissism and nihilistic impulses to recognize her own destiny and duty to humanity--it makes for an extraordinarily dramatic moment.

Unfortunately, in the TV series, they had to postpone the final resolution of the Hikaru/Minmay/Misa drama until well after the climax of the series. I don't completely regret how they did it--for one thing, I really like the added dimension of Kamjin and Laplamiz in the final episodes, and I think it's necessary that that part of the story occur after the destruction of Earth and the victory over Bodolza. And in order to maintain overall integrity, the fundamental personal issue of Macross--which is Hikaru growing up and dealing with Minmay and Misa--had to be prolonged to the very end.

[U.N.N.GhostRider303 VF-0]

I've been avoiding this thread for some time now. IMHO I kind of think some of the gang here went a little too deep into it. C'mon guys is it really that important to start a debate as to what timeline who fought who, or if this is a direct connection to that? It really doesn't matter. Enjoy it for what it is. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of great points on her. I'm suprised that my head didn't explode due to half the stuff I read though. Sometimes when you dig too deep, you forget what you're actually digging for. On a whole (Despite three episodes of terrible subbing <Which Alpha can verify>) I'm quite satisified with the opening and closing of Macross Zero. So what it doesn't show the VF-1. Big deal, you would think you'd be sick of seeing the thing. The VF-1 (granted we all love it), is old news. I mean the thing is everywhere, everywhere. Let it go and move on. After watching the whole thing start to finish several times, I think it was best not to show the VF-1 at all. Reason being, we all know where it came from, when it was built, what company built it, and I'm sure there are some fans out there so fixed on it, that they actually counted how many panels it would take to really build a life size mock up. (<-- in that case, I would suggest that you seek professional help as soon as possible. Your social life must be seriously lacking)

Getting back to said subject. Macross Zero had hints to all the series (excluding Macross II <nothing against Macross II I liked that one as well>) in 5 small episodes, some were big and some were small, some were really small. The story was totally Macross. I'm definately glad the series went the way it did. It was different. If it wasnt for the change in direction, I think it would have just been like the others.

That's my .02

[azrael]

On a side note to all these essays....

http://www.anime.net/macross/

Egan has updated the Compendium with the info from ep. 5.

[Ginrai]

Macross Zero had hints to all the series (excluding Macross II <nothing against Macross II I liked that one as well>)

Hey, like Macross 7 had a slight nod to Macross II (re-using one of its songs), Macross Zero had one, as well. The song of death/destruction! Immediately made me think of the one in Macross II.

[Keith]

Woah there. The extra dimension was sealed off, only tapped into when the Protoculture tried to draw energy from it for the Super Dimension Organs. Energy manipulation is taking place in this dimension, not influenced by anyone else other than those individuals such as Sara who have learned to harness it.

[treatment]

Getting back to said subject. Macross Zero had hints to all the series (excluding Macross II <nothing against Macross II  I liked that one as well>) in 5 small episodes, some were big and some were small, some were really small. The story was totally Macross. I'm definately glad the series went the way it did. It was different. If it wasnt for the change in direction, I think it would have just been like the others.

That's my .02

There was silent hint of MII such as the Ishtar/Emulator violent-purpose/control echos Sara's AFOS-control.

At any rate,

It's even more fun and satisfying if one marathons Zero in this order:

M-Zero (anbu/aone/infusion/a-f) + DYRL (nla).

if you have 6-disc changer with home-et setup and you converted your r2 to r1, and you don't need subs, it's even better because the audio-experience are great in both series. (5.1 in zero, 2.0-surround in DYRL).

Next week, I'll add Plus to the playlist-mix.

Yeah. I'm such a fanboy.

Edited November 8, 2004 by treatment

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm confused:

So the human race was genetically altered by the pc. Ordinary humans evolve and we are made.

but..

Only the alpha bombay-blooded priestesses have the powers connecting them to the bird human which has the powers to lift rocks? (as evidenced by it lifting everything that contains an anti grav generator inside it?)

And the shamanic training is the only way to get the rocks floating (without the use of these antigrav machines, since the pc and the people directly descended from them through blood, came from the subuniverse, therefore being able to see or feel these spirits/kaduns that we average people can't see?)

What I am wondering is whether the rocks float because of the runes on them, or if they float because of something the bird human's body parts are doing whenever sara communicates with it.

I'm thinking she has some telepathic link to the bird human, and like a wireless radio controlled toy, she can manipulate this machine so that the gravity is lessened on the painted rocks which results in the rocks floating. Just an idea.

This way, whenever enough negative emotion (say like extreme fear or trauma) is induced in her, she is able to move the head and body closer together based on this "head moves closer to body when people are possessed by evil thoughts/intentions" rule. Either that, or the head and body have a life of thier own and move together by themselves. So that when enough hate and war is in people's hearts, it speeds up the decision to destroy the world. The prophecys timing is conditional on whether love can postpone the coming of the end.... ..but the end is still inevitable based on imperfection in humans who always fight all the time. We failed the test even in the old days when we had primitive weapons and were easily corrupted. Sara's inability to prevent her blood being handed out was just part of the prophecised end of the world.

So..Hasford then asks sara to please speed the process up so that the war can end and a new age of peace can begin. (so that the world can be remade from the ashes of the destruction of the old powers; like the phoenix) He was probably ignorant of any future possibility that aliens would come to earth, and thought the prophectic "end of the world" all the legends were reffering to had something to do with the war the anti-un were having with the un instead of alien invasion. All this, given that it would have been a global world war where man would fight to the death until extinct; until 1 side won or both sides destroyed each other to not let one side gain control of the world. (ie mass nuking all over the world? )

But given that shin prevents this process from happening, and the bird human folds away, history is changed and the "end of the world" prophecy is postponed till much later. ie the end of the world actually occurs when the Zentradi unleash thier beams of death all over earth in sdf:macross, ....thus creating a new beginning. Man truly finds peace after the last threat (Kamjin who is defeated in a final battle) is wiped off earth in 2012 when the 'new age' begins as promised in the legends of all the ancient cultures. As a sidenote: I think the real end might have something to do with resources than aliens which is why I think we are being bombarded with environmental preachiness.(ie our future is grim, prepare to go back to a less comfortable form of living or kill your neighbour for survival. )

So in mac 0, the end of the world did NOT occur at all. Love saved the day and the future "new" world (the one that hasford mentioned before he dies) is the one that is rebuilt after SW I. Is that correct? The end is supposed to be 2012 so hasford was a bit too early to be the crucual player he assumed he was.

Edited November 9, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[treatment]

Exactly I don't think SDF had the same "dramatic conclusion" to the love triangle as DYRL (hell DYRL pulled out the SLOW MO for it...), but that was wholly because we knew that Misa and hikaru had such a deep relationship because of SDF. On its own there wasn't the same buildup of emotions, like the whole Misa cleaning up Hikaru's apartment scene, or Minmay's perfume. These things made it all the more deeper.

Dunno what pacing you're talking about, but I think you're looking at it from TV-fan pov. It'll be off coz you expected this and that based on the TV, but you find out the DYRL-movie doesn't do that. Depending on your pov, that's a smarter move by Kawamori for me.

Maybe if you read almost every other person's post on here, you'll see that its not the fact that DYRL is "different" that bothers people, it is the fact that it is dependent upon to TV series to give it depth and understanding. As a stand alone piece it is not as great a movie as it is with the foreknowledge of the TV series.

Also don't make vague assumptions that I'm or others maintain a biased TV-fan POV; thats been mine and most other people's point the whole way along. I don't know where you got the idea in your head that we worship it as the be all and end all. Realistically speaking, DYRL is just visual eyecandy for macross fans. Thats what Kawamori intended it to be, because he was unhappy about the budget he had for the TV series. I can't see how you can argue that a movie has a better storyline and character development than a TV series, especially a Japanese TV series at that (which focus more on storytelling than syndication). You don't get accustomed to characters after a short 15 minute scene, as you do over a 15 episode arc. The TV series gave the events of DYRL gravity and enhanced its meaning greatly.

/me scratches head.

Based on your posts above, I don't have to assume, anymore. I definitely just know now you're coming off from a TV-fan pov because you missed all the subtleties, obvious emo-buildups and the intelligent presentations of events in DYRL and are just dismissing DYRL as just "visual candy" for macross-fans. I'm also not a psychic nor am I arrogant enough to know exactly what Kawamori intended or not intended DYRL to be. I thought he intended DYRL to be the definitive Macross. Then he changed his mind. Then he changed his mind again. So, who knows what he actually intended or not. Really.

All other Macross-series will not have the same allure without having some familiarity from SDF-TV. One will ask what the heck's that big robot-thingy ship taken over by Sharon and why was it important. In M7, who was Max and Milia and why were they important.

So you see, that argument just doesn't cut it to apply or even discriminate against DYRL. All Macross canon-series requires some prior familiarity with SDF-TV stuff.

Thats a complete distortion of the reality, which you are trying to do to prove your point. The history of SDF and DYRL are completely intertwineded because THEY DESCRIBE THE SAME EVENTS WITH THE SAME CHARACTERS. while one does in a TV series, the other one tries to cram it all into a 2 hour movie.

What exactly are you arguing again? Do other Macross series depend on familiarity of SDF-TV or not? Yes or No would suffice.

For the others, the links are far less tenuous. Plus and Zero only use minor plot elements from the others. Is it vital that you knew that the Macross was a famous battleship that won a war 40 years ago? Not really. It only shows up in the final episode, and its centrality to the story (ie without knowing its history your understanding of the story would be significantly impared) is minimal.

They don't need to know the war of 40 years ago. They just need to be aware that the Macross-ship was the same Macross-ship in SDF-TV and DYRL.

Its completely not like the Ghost, or Sharon, who are the primary antagonists that were introduced throughout the movie/oav. What links are there between SDF and Zero that require you to know about the other, when zero is a prequel? Oh we got new technology from it? Actually I think watchers need to see macross 7 more to understand Macross zero than they do the TV series.

Require knowledge? I said be require familiarity, not require nowledge.

Roy Focker's there in Zero. Who's Roy Focker and why's he such a famous character? He's the same brash blonde-haired ace dude who piloted the yellow jolly-roger VF-1S in SDF-TV and DYRL. What the heck was Shin talking about that crashed in 1999 in ep1. Oh, right. The Macross ship.

You don't need knowledge necessarily. Just familiarity. The fact that all Macross canon-series are prefaced with a Macross-name means one has to be just familiar with SDF-TV or DYRL and not necessarily be fully knowledgeable of either, too. It's not like UC-Gundam (zeta, zz, cca) series that actually do requires knowledge of 0079 events and characters.

I mean, if I preface "Macross"on Yukikaze, would you accept it at all as a Macross-series?

edit: clarity, i hope.

Edited November 8, 2004 by treatment

[Final Vegeta]

So, even after the PC civil war broke out, the Protoculture on each side kept their best technology for themselves, instead of giving it to their proxy warriors. Then one side developed the EVIL series, which would have incorporated even more advanced technology, but neither side thought to use the existing AFOS-level tech in the war.

Maybe the AFOS and the Protodevilns were kinda the same technology. The AFOS seems to require a human singer to work (hence the need for a song of destruction), while the Protodevilns were supposed to be independant of it.

FV

[Radd]

Yeah, it seems to me that the AFOS is no more advanced than the eVil series. It was probably designed late in the war, after the PC had realized their mistakes, but before they'd dissapeared from the galaxy.

[Final Vegeta]

Yeah, it seems to me that the AFOS is no more advanced than the eVil series. It was probably designed late in the war, after the PC had realized their mistakes, but before they'd dissapeared from the galaxy.

According to Compendium:

PC 2870

A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary enivronment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]

The Evil series' final test was made in PC 2871, so it would happen later than the creation of the AFOS. There is however a second date within brackets. If we assume that is the revised real date, the AFOS was built after the Evil series, so everything will match.

Despite the crisis rapresented by Protodevilns the dissolution of Stellar Republic happened only in PC 3000, and Earth was very likely to be an out-of-the-way planet in this galaxy, so no-one was supposed to have messed with the survey ship in its mission on Earth.

FV

[ewilen]

Bracketed info on the Compendium seems to be stuff that is no longer official. E.g., "Russia [soviet Union]" at http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/1999/index.html

Note that the dates of the PC calendar don't necessarily correspond to Earth years. PC 2871 may be a year after PC 2870, three years after, 10 years, 100 years...we don't know.

Edited November 9, 2004 by ewilen

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Well, I just watched it (yes I tend to get behind on things, especially the more I care for it). I really enjoyed it. Sure, there were some "iffy" parts. Mao "appearing" before Shin was a little odd. I took it as figurative. More like he was seeing her, rather than her being there. Not a big deal. Nora's death was a little disappointing in that it was a wrong place kind of thing. However, it was fitting; and I liked how Ivanov snapped afterwards. I had no real qualms with the ending, outside of how Shin's plane suddenly dropping was a bit too "sight-gag". I liked the emotional impact of it, and basically, if something can get me that way, I'm pleased. The fight scenes were well done, and the CGI looked great(high praise coming from me). Yeah, the beginning's rushed, but everything works out well. For once, I actually thought the lead might die, as I could see it work. Over all, I really loved this series. I think I see a MZero/DYRL? marathon in my near future.

[lt.actionjackson]

A little late to the party of course but finally managed to see ep. 5. I agree with a lot of the earlier posts that we really could have used another episode or at least an extra fifteen minutes to flesh out the beginning of ep. 5. It's like "Last time on Mac Zero, the island appeared to be getting nuked", then in ep. 5, Shin and Roy are on helicopter and Shin's thinking about how Sara and Aries and the Aphos head have been kidnapped and that gets like a one cell, three second flashback. Huh? Why didn't they roll the credits over that scene instead of a flashback? Anyways, it was a weird episode and I'm still not sure how much of this does tie into the original SDF besides the inclusion of Roy and the valks. Why didn't the AFOS activate itself when the Macross crash landed? Because Sara and Mao weren't personally affected by the crash? The whole world goes into chaos mode when the UN tries to assert control after the arrival, but AFOS doesn't get mad unless the goddess of the wind says she's had enough??? Hmm...

Besides all that and not seeing the Macross under construction I thought the animation was top notch and the dogfights were beautiful. I'm probably going to watch Mac Zero a couple more time just for those dogfights. In the meantime, I'll be waiting for the movie version.

[Keith]

Why would it start up when the Macross crashed? It wasn't designed to destroy things if humans attained technology, just if they became a threat of spreading wars through space. And the Protoculture being the Protoculture didn't leave the decision up to a machine, but a human to decide.

[lt.actionjackson]

I was under the impression that the APHOS was there to monitor humanity's evolution. It asks Sara "Can man travel to the stars?" Yes. "Does man still fight?" Yes, and then it goes berzerk and tries to take out everyone. The arrival of ASS-1 was actually the start of the UN/anti-UN thing and the full global conflict that ensued as a result of the ASS arrival. I'm not saying that the Macross should have instantly triggered a response, but if APHOS is there to pass judgement on humanity's progress and it's connected to the Wind Priestesses, shouldn't the APHOS have sensed that humanity was going down the tubes quite quickly, thanks to the UN/Anti-UN global conflict, and that the end game was fast approaching? It just seems off to me that the barometer for the doomsday machine is on a far flung island in the middle of nowhwere. To me its like the PC drew a line in the sand and said "you can blow everything up on this planet, but not THIS ISLAND; that would be bad...oh, and don't kill the priestesses' boyfriend." Maybe its that they weren't concerned with humanity at all, they were just making sure that they didn't accidentally create another army that would go after them.

[DatterBoy]

Just saw it and wanted to say...

WTF?!?!

My two cents.

:Dat

[ewilen]

Maybe its that they weren't concerned with humanity at all, they were just making sure that they didn't accidentally create another army that would go after them.

Bingo. As far as the PC is concerned, humans can slaughter each other as much as they like, but once they threaten to extend their conflicts into the rest of the galaxy, they need to be stopped. (Rewatch the AFOS's quizzing of Sara, around 17 minutes into the episode.)

I'm not saying that the Macross should have instantly triggered a response, but if APHOS is there to pass judgement on humanity's progress and it's connected to the Wind Priestesses, shouldn't the APHOS have sensed that humanity was going down the tubes quite quickly, thanks to the UN/Anti-UN global conflict, and that the end game was fast approaching?

Somewhere in the OAV, somebody says that the head and the body have been getting closer to each other over the years, whenever there's too much fighting.

It just seems off to me that the barometer for the doomsday machine is on a far flung island in the middle of nowhwere.  To me its like the PC drew a line in the sand and said "you can blow everything up on this planet, but not THIS ISLAND; that would be bad...oh, and don't kill the priestesses' boyfriend."

As others have said, the AFOS isn't programmed to make decisions completely on its own. Responsibility for the ultimate decision and judgment has been passed down in Sara's family through the aeons. Notice that Mao says at one point that the AFOS doesn't really want to kill everyone (and she seems to have some insight due to the blood transfusion and the rebirth ritual). Sara is possessed by the AFOS in the sense that she no longer sees things through human eyes, but it's still her, and her emotions, that are guiding the AFOS's actions.

[grss1982]

why do i have the sneaky suspicion that macross zero's ep.5 is somekind of a clue? I mean could this be a hint by the creators of macross that the next macross, which could possible be around the time line of 2045 and above will be about the AFOS' return to earth or something to that effect. I also would like to point out that i base my suspicion on the "birdman" in zero that went on a rampage when it was told that humanity has built ships, etc. etc..

[Keith]

What would be really funny is if Zero turned out to never be referred to again