MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[mikeszekely]

Do you like Zero better than DYRL? Be honest...

Noyhauser might not be able to say it, but I can.

I like Macross Zero better than DYRL.

DYRL is, quite possibly, the most over-rated part of the Macross franchise. Why do people love it so much? Because it features the highest-quality animation for the VF-1? DYRL is all flash and no substance. Outside of the context of the original TV series, it's nothing.

Macross Zero, taken by itself, is at least an interesting story. And taken in the context of the rest of the series, it builds on the whole Protoculture mythos. Yeah, it's true that the character development isn't as good as a TV series like SDF or Macross 7... but I think it's just as good as Macross Plus (because, to be honest, I really didn't give a damn about Isamu, Myung, or Guld, either).

[Noyhauser]

Yeah I'd agree with you there.. Just that DYRL has..... sentimental value. Its story now doesn't speak to me like any of the other series, its animation is great, likely the second best of the series but thats it.

I'd disagree about Plus on one point. There was one character I loved, and that was guld, especially after his death (not in that way). The first time I saw him I thought he was one of the most arrogant characters, but afterwards I got a completely new appreciation of him. He was such a tragic character. I would say maybe the most deepest in all of macross. Maybe it wasn't so much character development as that you see him from a completely new light at the climax.

[bsu legato]

DYRL is, quite possibly, the most over-rated part of the Macross franchise. Why do people love it so much? Because it features the highest-quality animation for the VF-1? DYRL is all flash and no substance. Outside of the context of the original TV series, it's nothing.

That's hardly fair. DYRL may have its flaws, but thats a large exaggeration to say that it's "nothing" without SDF.

[TheLoneWolf]

Since when does animation make a series great?  If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

/me shakes head.

you're watching an anime, right? 

anime is japanese shorthand for animation.

therefore, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

Okaaaaay.

Since SDF Macross has poor animation, does that make it suck?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Glad you like it though, and that it provides you hours of speculation about whether bird humans are flying fish that evolved from protoculture semen and spawned humans that disappear to the stars in barrier forcefield folds because they feel love and not Kundun anger while singing the song of life in a big floating flower

I've got images of the robotech Invid flower of life. The octos and 1-eyed mech does kind of look like an invid.

I think all the ancient myths make more sense when you take an ancient astronaut perspective to history. We already had our war with the zentradi and beat them. They as soldiers were bored of just experiencing the same crappy lifestyle of war that never ends. It means no time for leisure, no women, no drinks, no sex, no toys, videogames, hobbies, no freedom to think or educate yourself etc... everyting is just structured for military purposes. All the money (if there was currency) just went into spending towards more weapons which we humans ended up doing in world wars and got sick of. Kakazaki summed it up well how boring life would be without being allowed to love in the episode where him, misa and hikaru were captured aboard the ship. I think the story of the zentradi is over and we all have to get over it. There's not much more to tell imo.

I think the whole x-files style aproach to human origins is refreshing theme. It really adds to believeability to the ancient zentradi legends of people with super powers that couldn't be explained. SDF Macross shows them believing we ARE the PC, and this brings up an interesting twist: Maybe we really are them? Maybe the PC did spread a virus to earth or had some of thier people come here and mate with ancient civilisations whose history is hidden from the rest of the world due to isolation? Why would exedol respond so frightened about Kaifun's 'PC power' unless there really were encounters like this?

For people like me who just bought the DVD boxset of SDF macross and scratching thier head about who the PC really were, what genetic experiments they got into, and the possibility of ancient astronauts on earth, this is an interesting topic. As well as the prophecies about the world ending because it is thought we are going through some sort of hippy's 'new age' of spriritual awakening. (Hasford makes a phoenix reference about how the world will be remade from ashes, which could be references to the coming holocaust in SDFM) Notice how goverments around the world just seem not to care anymore about local concerns and turn only towards global ones? They want a global government or rule with themselves in power.

To me the original tv series shows the new world order after the anti-un (that is anyone with an anti-global goverment belief) have been killed off, whereas this one shows us who the anti-un were, how they got to be such a threat, and what they were planning to do. (world peace, evolve the race, end the war) They seemed to get mentioned in the tv series (the bye bye mars ep) but for people like me, I want to know more of thier history and have some image of them.

I'm glad that the events in Zero showed us characters who were neutral to these two sides because in war, innocent people are the ones who get caught up in the ambitions of the few, and it lets us all know that neither the UN or Anti-UN were saints. No good guys or bad guys, just powers. I felt sorry for sara when they showed the image of the blown up bridge and the crying kid with the dead parent, and the octos invasion. As seen from those images: how things got to be the way they were (in the tv series) was through a lot of sorrow, and people having to follow orders and accept the hypocracy of those orders even if they did not agree with them. ie global's little speech to lisa about the need to spread the human race to avoid another holocaust due to the human race having ever more deadly military weapons and increased military funding; risking us becoming like the warlike zentradi and powerhungry PC. Obviously, given they are survivors of a holocaust, he does not trust the higher ups, whether we are PC-descended or not, since there is no perfect race that is free from mistakes.

We also get to see Roy being neutral to war. I'm pretty sure the only reason he and shin fights is out of duty and a naive sense that the wars and suffering will finally end by them merely protecting thier loved ones, (Shin:"I know it's just a fantasy") not because they love killing so much and a military career. Hikaru's perception of them as murderers earlier in the tv series really shows the journey and progress they would end up going through as more and more pilots died in the Unification war and they were running short and desperate. (ie it was more like they were forced into the killing and protection/defense of others was inevitable due to the circumstances)

Despite Roy's apearances in the SDFM series and his cockiness and drunken behaviour in the movie (trying to make out with claudia in public) did we really get to know Roy up close before? His death was sudden and almost too quick, almost like what happens when a soap star gets into a real life accident and suddenly does not appear anymore in the soap. Claudia flashback wasn't enough to flesh this character out imo.

My main complaints:

-needed a sixth part to resolve the characters and the events after the afos disappeared. You don't leave people hanging like that. It's not nice. Perhaps flesh out what happened to nora and the brutal treatment of villagers she was reffering to. Yeah we know she's angry, but be more specific. I get the sense they were just put there as filler to provide opposition to the good guys.

-They needed to end the dogfight with a decisive victory for shin and roy. Maybe they use some strange new maneuver to outfly their instructors? I liked the training scene between roy and shin with the 3 modes. Perhaps finish the aces off in style and add a matrix-style slowdown and cam rotation like in some of the earlier eps? I can think of heap of cool finishing moves and maybe even a one liner for Shin or Roy that makes the audience feel good about the last duel. It just seemed weak given all the taunting before.

Edited November 5, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[treatment]

Since when does animation make a series great?  If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

/me shakes head.

you're watching an anime, right? 

anime is japanese shorthand for animation.

therefore, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

Okaaaaay.

Since SDF Macross has poor animation, does that make it suck?

In terms of animation and the generation it was shown to, hell yeah.

Even back in the 80's, the art and animation of SDF-TV sucked donkey balls. The TV-story was only interesting because of Hikaru and Minmay romance, which was lacking in many of it's contemporaries like Gundam.

That's why DYRL stomps all over it. Animation and story-wise.

Zero, on the other hand, has a more sophisticated story and sophisticated animation presented in only five episodes towards today's more, dare-i-say, sophisticated and jaded anime-fans.

I hope that answers your question.

Edited November 5, 2004 by treatment

[LinxCrossq]

Look! Look! A direct connection between Macross Zero and Macross 7.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Proof that basara has a Jungian racial memory dating back to M0

[AlphaHX]

Look! Look! A direct connection between Macross Zero and Macross 7.

both their faces look funny?

hahahah...

just playing.

Kawamori must like that lightening design.

Edited November 5, 2004 by AlphaHX

[Panon]

Even back in the 80's, the art and animation of SDF-TV sucked donkey balls. The TV-story was only interesting because of Hikaru and Minmay romance, which was lacking in many of it's contemporaries like Gundam. 

That's why DYRL stomps all over it. Animation and story-wise.

Which part of the DYRL story "stomps" over Macross TV?

The turning of the background story of Protoculture/Supervision Army/Zentradi issues into something so simplistic and trite as "men vs women!", as well as dumbing down the story as a whole?

The sheer lack of character development?

The poor pacing?

The transforming of Roy into a drunken caricature, including having his own cliche 'heroic death' versus his shocking and realistic one in the original?

The replacement of the meaningful "Love Drifts Away" in TV's final battle with the more general love song "Do You Remember Love?" in the movies final battle?

DYRL has superior animation to the original - and nothing else over the TV series.

I would place Zero, as well as any other part of Macross (maybe with the exception of Dynamite 7) above DYRL without a seconds thought.

[treatment]

Even back in the 80's, the art and animation of SDF-TV sucked donkey balls. The TV-story was only interesting because of Hikaru and Minmay romance, which was lacking in many of it's contemporaries like Gundam. 

That's why DYRL stomps all over it. Animation and story-wise.

Which part of the DYRL story "stomps" over Macross TV?

The turning of the background story of Protoculture/Supervision Army/Zentradi issues into something so simplistic and trite as "men vs women!", as well as dumbing down the story as a whole?

I don't know what you mean by "dumbing down the story as a whole". DYRL was a more intelligent and logical story than TV. The Zentradi/Meltrandi/Human story of DYRL was more effective and better than the still-current big Supervision-hole in TV-story. You prolly only want the TV-story coz it makes M7 a part of Macross.

other places where DYRL stomps TV:

[*] The love-triangle was much more effectively handled in DYRL, i.e. better defined, better break-up.

[*] The protoculture-angle/legend was a more believeable myth and better explained.

[*] The lost city

[*] The motivation and family-status of Kaifun's over-protectiveness of Minmay.

[*] Minmay was older and not as fickle or ditsy.

[*] Hikaru's reaction to both Roy and Kakizaki's death in the confrontation with Minmay.

[*] The proper downgrading of the secondary and tertiary characters.

The sheer lack of character development?

Two hours was more than enough to flesh out the main characters and their respective motivations.

The poor pacing?

Huh?

The transforming of Roy into a drunken caricature, including having his own cliche 'heroic death' versus his shocking and realistic one in the original?

Huh? Roy's death was more realistic in TV than DYRL??? You have got to be kidding me.

The replacement of the meaningful "Love Drifts Away" in TV's final battle with the more general love song "Do You Remember Love?" in the movies final battle?

Yup. What's so meaningful about LDA, anyway? How many songs did it took Minmay to sing in TV during the Bodolza battle?

DYRL-song was more than enough since the primary use of the song was to surprise and shock the enemy for a few moment to gain an advantage.

DYRL has superior animation to the original - and nothing else over the TV series.

I would place Zero, as well as any other part of Macross (maybe with the exception of Dynamite 7) above DYRL without a seconds thought.

That's your perspective. My perspective is that I place DYRL above and then Plus and Zero next. Then TV. I don't place any of the 7-series anywhere besides the bottom. Without second thoughts.

[Keith]

Damnit, that helmet thing has been bugging me for months, I just couldn't put it together! Love those references

As for Macross Vs its contemporaries, I think it stood up above Gundam (0079 at least). Macross had a more personal story, as well as a much more focussed one. In regards to Noyhauser's views on Zero, I fully agree.

BOMBA!

[mikeszekely]

Even back in the 80's, the art and animation of SDF-TV sucked donkey balls. The TV-story was only interesting because of Hikaru and Minmay romance, which was lacking in many of it's contemporaries like Gundam. 

That's why DYRL stomps all over it. Animation and story-wise.

Which part of the DYRL story "stomps" over Macross TV?

The turning of the background story of Protoculture/Supervision Army/Zentradi issues into something so simplistic and trite as "men vs women!", as well as dumbing down the story as a whole?

I don't know what you mean by "dumbing down the story as a whole". DYRL was a more intelligent and logical story than TV. The Zentradi/Meltrandi/Human story of DYRL was more effective and better than the still-current big Supervision-hole in TV-story. You prolly only want the TV-story coz it makes M7 a part of Macross.

other places where DYRL stomps TV:

[*] The love-triangle was much more effectively handled in DYRL, i.e. better defined, better break-up.

[*] The protoculture-angle/legend was a more believeable myth and better explained.

[*] The lost city

[*] The motivation and family-status of Kaifun's over-protectiveness of Minmay.

[*] Minmay was older and not as fickle or ditsy.

[*] Hikaru's reaction to both Roy and Kakizaki's death in the confrontation with Minmay.

[*] The proper downgrading of the secondary and tertiary characters.

The sheer lack of character development?

Two hours was more than enough to flesh out the main characters and their respective motivations.

The poor pacing?

Huh?

The transforming of Roy into a drunken caricature, including having his own cliche 'heroic death' versus his shocking and realistic one in the original?

Huh? Roy's death was more realistic in TV than DYRL??? You have got to be kidding me.

The replacement of the meaningful "Love Drifts Away" in TV's final battle with the more general love song "Do You Remember Love?" in the movies final battle?

Yup. What's so meaningful about LDA, anyway? How many songs did it took Minmay to sing in TV during the Bodolza battle?

DYRL-song was more than enough since the primary use of the song was to surprise and shock the enemy for a few moment to gain an advantage.

DYRL has superior animation to the original - and nothing else over the TV series.

I would place Zero, as well as any other part of Macross (maybe with the exception of Dynamite 7) above DYRL without a seconds thought.

That's your perspective. My perspective is that I place DYRL above and then Plus and Zero next. Then TV. I don't place any of the 7-series anywhere besides the bottom. Without second thoughts.

Why is DYRL more logical? The Meltrandi/Zentradi conflict made no sense. Aside from the fact that they had a lame Atlantis-like island so that Misa could conveniently find, of all things, they lyrics to a pop song (which she then translated from an alien language millenia old, in a few hours no less), the Protoculture where more of a convenient plot device. And speaking of our pop song, it turns out to be a magic pop song that allows the Macross and their new friends to kick Bodolza's back-stabbing ass... but not until after they'd taken out the Meltrandi (which was nice, you know, because they'd only been fighting for lord knows how long for lord knows what reason before they abruptly defeated them). Oh, and don't forget how Max meets a beautiful giant chick, so he decides to go AWHOL to fight along side her (because of course her superiors were cool with that).

Yeah, I can see how that's more logical than the TV series.

And while we're at it...

[*]The love-triangle was lame in DYRL. He was infatuated with a super-star, but lost interest when he found his true love. Not nearly as complicated and conflicted as in the TV series... or in real life.

[*]The Protoculture angle, as you put it, made a lot more sense in the TV series. We learned who they were, and how they created the Zentradi and affected human evolution on earth. As I said before, in DYRL, they're just a plot device.

[*]The Protoculture city was just lame. Like no one would have found an entire city underwater before then, especially with all the people searching for Atlantis. Again, just a silly plot device.

[*]Yeah, family status is a good reason to be overprotective of Minmay... except that, without prior knowledge from the TV series, you wouldn't really know that the guy in the Rabbit was Kaifun, or even who Kaifun was. For all we know, he was just her manager, concerned about losing a money-maker. Face it, Kaifun, his relationship with Minmay, and his motivations are much more fleshed out in the TV series.

[*]You're right, Minmay wasn't as fickle or ditzy. She was much more generic in DYRL. Love her or hate her in the TV version, she had a lot more personality.

[*]So Hikaru blows up about Roy and Kakizaki at Minmay in DYRL. At least in SDF, we got to learn what Hikaru's relationship to Roy was, and who Kakizaki was at all. And DYRL doesn't have Hikaru breaking his model and crying in the hospital when he finds out what happened to Roy, nor Hikaru getting all sentimental when he replaced Roy as Skull-01's pilot.

[*]Proper downgrading of secondary and tertiary characters? That would be the sheer lack of character development that we were talking about. Macross was about more than Hikaru, Misa, and a generic Minmay. You can't tell me that you don't think Max, Global, Claudia, Kaifun, or Roy weren't main characters. DYRL certainly did nothing to develop those characters... you probably wouldn't know half of their names, even, without prior knowledge of Macross from the TV series.

[*]The poor pacing? That'd be how the movie starts in the middle of the fight, without explaining what the Macross was, who the Zentradi were, why the humans and Zentradi were fighting, how the Meltrandi figured into it, how they wound up in space with no contact with earth, or what happened to the earth once they got back. Having seen SDF Macross first, we can all fill in those gaps... but as a stand alone work, DYRL is a failure. It practically demands that you watch SDF first.

Bottom line... SDF Macross (or in some cases, Robotech) made us all fans of the VF-1... and DYRL has the prettiest VF-1s. That's why we like it. But it every other way, it doesn't hold a candle to the original.

[RichterX]

DYRL was not a magical song

Culture was apparently present in the Zentrandi/Meltrandi genes but need a protoculture folk song (DYRL) to be able to trigger their culture, some decide to protect the culture of protoculture (human activities other than fighting) but still there were some that could resist the song or didn't have culture in their genes. (the ones that die with Bodolza)

Edited to add:

It is pretty obvious that DYRL was made intending that people were already familiarize with the characters or that will like to see the serie after watching the movie...

Hikaru didn't cry for Roy or Kakizaki dead's because of the circumstance he is in DYRL both time he was either trying to safe his life or in middle of a fight...

Hikaru did scream Roy's name when Roy died and almost bitch up on Misa for telling him to keep going if it hadn't been cause she was crying and remind him to honour Roy's sacrifice by saving Minmey. He also remembers his sempai while he is stranded in the devasted Earth with Misa.

About Kakizaki, well I don't think you would break done and cry for your fallen comrade while still in battle you just keep blasting the enemy. Also consider that the action change from Kakizaki being killed to the Millia and Max.

The Minmey and Hikaru interaction when he tell her to sing. That was great, it reflected how much mature the Hikaru is from his character design in Macross TV and it show a lot of emotion for all the people tha had died so far including Kakizaki and Roy.

Edited November 5, 2004 by RichterX

[treatment]

Why is DYRL more logical?  The Meltrandi/Zentradi conflict made no sense. 

Huh? What part of Man-vs-Woman conflict does not make any sense to you? It's one of the oldest conflict known to humans. Just below human-vs-human and humans-vs-sabretooth tigers. Geezus, man. You're grasping.

Aside from the fact that they had a lame Atlantis-like island so that Misa could conveniently find,

Did you actually watch the same DYRL as me? Coz how long was it that Misa reported they were on Earth again? And what was the condition of the Earth again in DYRL?

I wouldn't call that "conveniently" found.

of all things, they lyrics to a pop song (which she then translated from an alien language millenia old, in a few hours no less),

Misa did not know that it was the lyrics to a pop song, Misa knew about Zentran language, which the artifact was similar to. She couldn't even translate it properly.

the Protoculture where more of a convenient plot device. 

It WAS the overall plot in DYRL. Just like the Protoculture (theory and legend) was also the overall plot in Zero. That's not convenience. That's a smart and original sci-fi story/story-telling.

And speaking of our pop song, it turns out to be a magic pop song that allows the Macross and their new friends to kick Bodolza's back-stabbing ass...

Yeah. Tell me again how it all transpired. The DYRL-song was the only tune that had an effect on the Zentradi. They were listening to Minmay sing another song in DYRL and they weren't fazed at all with it until she hugged Kaifun. Tell me you did not miss that part, dude.

but not until after they'd taken out the Meltrandi (which was nice, you know, because they'd only been fighting for lord knows how long for lord knows what reason before they abruptly defeated them). 

My gawd, man. Watch DYRL again. The Meltrans were still fighting even after Laplamiz was neutralized/destroyed. Who the hell were the Zentradi's still fighting?

Oh, and don't forget how Max meets a beautiful giant chick, so he decides to go AWHOL to fight along side her (because of course her superiors were cool with that).

No, he didn't went AWOL. He got captured inside the Meltran battleship which folded out. There's a difference between AWOL and captured, dude. Hikaru was the one who went AWOL.

Yeah, I can see how that's more logical than the TV series.

I don't know what logic you are using, but it seems like you're very illogical in your DYRL ideas.

And while we're at it...

[*]The love-triangle was lame in DYRL.  He was infatuated with a super-star, but lost interest when he found his true love.

Huh? Did you really watch DYRL?

You did know that Hikaru thought Minmay was dead. You did know that both Hikaru and Misa knew it's a snowball-chance that they will be saved and that the Macross was still functioning.

Not nearly as complicated and conflicted as in the TV series... or in real life.

Huh?

What's so complicated about the TV-series romance? A ditsy high-school girl who is fickle and does not know her feelings. A naive dude who pines for her and does not see an obvious alternative right under his nose.

or

an isolated pop-star yearning for affection and found it in an unlikely fan-suitor. Her feelings for Hikaru did not waver or lessened and EVEN forgives and wants Hikaru back and does not care what happened between Hikaru and Misa during their three-month isolation on the Earth. Hikaru being torn between his love/guilt for the still-lovesick Minmay and his new-found affection for his commanding officer that he just got laid with.

Gee, man. Which romance is more complicated and more real-life again?

[*]The Protoculture angle, as you put it, made a lot more sense in the TV series.  We learned who they were, and how they created the Zentradi and affected human evolution on earth.  As I said before, in DYRL, they're just a plot device.

Dude, I think you're really mixing TV and DYRL synopsis here. And, yes, it was a plot device. What else could it be??? It's also the basis for Zero's protoculture/bird-human legend.

[*]The Protoculture city was just lame.  Like no one would have found an entire city underwater before then, especially with all the people searching for Atlantis.  Again, just a silly plot device.

Dunno why you keep bringing that up, but Atlantis is just a legend. The lost city made sense and only got exposed AFTER the Zentradi bombardment/annihilation of the Earth. Again, it is a plot device. What exactly do you think the purposes of plot-devices are, anyway?

[*]Yeah, family status is a good reason to be overprotective of Minmay... except that, without prior knowledge from the TV series, you wouldn't really know that the guy in the Rabbit was Kaifun, or even who Kaifun was.  For all we know, he was just her manager, concerned about losing a money-maker.  Face it, Kaifun, his relationship with Minmay, and his motivations are much more fleshed out in the TV series.

No. In DYRL, Minmay fully explained that Kaifun was her brother and the one her parents entrusted her with. That's more logical and more natural with regards to Kaifun's overprotectiveness. Did you missed that, too?

Kaifun's motivations and relationship with Minmay in the TV-series was weak at best, and even tasteless. Why a cousin?

[*]You're right, Minmay wasn't as fickle or ditzy.  She was much more generic in DYRL.  Love her or hate her in the TV version, she had a lot more personality.

Ditsy and fickle was all TV-Minmay's personality. That's generic.

DYRL-Minmay was an isolated, lovesick, forgiving, jealous, vindictive, and emphatic character. Far from being a generic.

[*]So Hikaru blows up about Roy and Kakizaki at Minmay in DYRL.  At least in SDF, we got to learn what Hikaru's relationship to Roy was, and who Kakizaki was at all. 

Irrelevant. Does not matter if one knows who Roy or Kakizaki were in terms of relationship. All that was needed was Roy was the leader and Kakizaki was a team-mate.

Roy was Hikaru's sempai and commanding-officer in DYRL and Hikaru afforded him the proper respect and stuff that Roy's rank/sempai-ness deserves.

And DYRL doesn't have Hikaru breaking his model and crying in the hospital when he finds out what happened to Roy, nor Hikaru getting all sentimental when he replaced Roy as Skull-01's pilot.

And that's good because???

In DYRL, there was no time to be sentimental and stuff because of the real-time desperate situation the Macross was in. Hikaru was the last remaining ace and member of the Skull Squadron. He was the only one capable of doing the kamikaze attack against Bodolza himself.

[*]Proper downgrading of secondary and tertiary characters?  That would be the sheer lack of character development that we were talking about.  Macross was about more than Hikaru, Misa, and a generic Minmay.  You can't tell me that you don't think Max, Global, Claudia, Kaifun, or Roy weren't main characters.  DYRL certainly did nothing to develop those characters... you probably wouldn't know half of their names, even, without prior knowledge of Macross from the TV series.

They weren't. They're mostly secondaries and tertiaries. They didn't need to be developed at all to make any sci-fi story such as DYRL viable, believable, and enjoyable.

[*]The poor pacing?  That'd be how the movie starts in the middle of the fight, without explaining what the Macross was, who the Zentradi were, why the humans and Zentradi were fighting, how the Meltrandi figured into it, how they wound up in space with no contact with earth, or what happened to the earth once they got back.   

Yeah. Very much like in Macross-Plus and Macross-Zero, huh? Unimportant details. Macross was about the main characters in DYRL, Plus and Zero. And all three works properly and all three are enjoyable for first and repeat-viewing.

Having seen SDF Macross first, we can all fill in those gaps... but as a stand alone work, DYRL is a failure. 

Huh? How was DYRL a failure again? It's a successful movie-version, iirc. If it had failed in the box-office when it was released , then it's a failure. But it wasn't a failure in the box-office, was it?

It practically demands that you watch SDF first.

And so? Plus, Zero and 7 demands that one watch SDF-TV first. What are you complaining about again?

Bottom line... SDF Macross (or in some cases, Robotech) made us all fans of the VF-1... and DYRL has the prettiest VF-1s.  That's why we like it.  But it every other way, it doesn't hold a candle to the original.

Uhh, no. Dunno what candle you're holding, but it's already passed out and melted, man.

I was made a fan of Macross primarily because of Hikaru and Minmay and the DYRL version of them. The Hikaru Red Strike-Valkyrie is still the most awesome mecha of all, imho.

I could've cared less about the TV-series and the VF-1 back then. I thought the Gundam-mecha was better designed and animated in 0079, as well as the old super-robots like Mazinger-Z, Getter, Grendaizer, etc, etc. My feelings for Macross would've been the same empty feelings I have for Orguss-01 and Mospeada, had it not been for DYRL's version.

edit: cleared typos, grammar and stuff.

Edited November 5, 2004 by treatment

[RichterX]

Amen to that my brother!

[Radd]

I got to agree with Treatment on the whole DYRL? vs. SDF thing. It has bothered me for ages that many people take for granted that DYRL? must have worse character developement because it's far shorter than SDF. I see it as a matter of quality over quantity, myself.

I also know several people who's first exposure to Macross was DYRL?, and they had no problems at all following the story.

[Final Vegeta]

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel. If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

You are right, he should have done both a Macross Zero and an Escaflowne Zero

We just need more Kawamori.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

I don't doubt that the Protoculture had the technology to make it happen... but from the radio dramas, we know that Zolans and humans were incompatible

Really?

If the Protoculture created humanoids from fish, I'd expect them to have some fish characteristics, like scales or cold blood.

I don't know. OGM mais = mais + scorpion, but it still doesn't look like a scorpion.

I am in for the metaphoric meaning. Actually, even the Compendium says Protoculture didn't create our ancestors.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the Nome family (and to a lesser degree, the rest of the Mayans) aren't special.  Quite frankly, I think they are... but I think it's because they have Protoculture blood, not because they're literally decendend from fish.

I think they are the purest Protoculture blood around.

Oh, and about the Protoculture and the Zentradi... I don't recall, either in the compendium or in Macross 7, that it said that the Protoculture were the ONLY sentient life in the galaxy... just that they were the FIRST sentient life in the galaxy. 

I think ginga kujira were born before them. I think ginga kujira where the origin of all the life in the universe, since they like to spread bacteria on planets.

I would even say that the Protoculture considered themselves so superior that, when colonizing, if they found other sentient life, they didn't just try to take the planet without the native's consent or try to coinhabit the planet... they probably considered other sentient life inferior and used the Zentradi to wipe them out.

Maybe the real reason of this galactic war was free market...

FV

[KingNor]

Honestly the flying rock thing and AFOS argument is pissing me off. if you can believe that human technology can make this float

then you can sure as hell believe that the protoculture (A race far far far more advance than humans) can make a few rocks float around in a jungle. its just that simple.

ok you have a point about the big floating spaceships. but you gotta remember that the ships have big antigrav engines. we arn't so much making the ships float as we're making the engines float, and attaching the ship TO them.

there is quite a bit of diffrence between creating a device that does something, and creating a device that makes other stuff do something.

it would be something like a tribal guy from an un-developed part of society seeing a 747 jumbo jet and assuming our culture has the technology to just slap wings onto anything and make it fly.

if the rocks are some how special rocks, protoculture rocks, or they have technology in them then i agree with you.

[ewilen]

Kingnor, how do we make the engines float? All by themselves, floating antigrav generators are pretty "magical".

I will say this, though--if the Protoculture did have the ability to make stuff like the AFOS and floating rocks, why doesn't the Macross have the same level of technology?

I've always assumed that the reaction furnace, fold generators, antigrav generators, and main gun were largely intact on the ASS-1; the UN Spacy just had to fix them up, repair the hull, build new interfaces to the ship systems, and build new secondary weaponry. Perhaps I'm wrong, and there was much less that could be salvaged. So the ASS-1 contained information on the theory of antigravity, but the generators were built on the earth and consequently didn't have the degree of miniaturization (nanotechnology?) found in the AFOS.

I think this is contradicted by the dialog in ep. 1 or 2 of SDF Macross, though.

Another possibility is that there had been a cultural and technological decline over the course of the Protodevlin war, the fall of the Protoculture, and the long Zentradi-Supervision Army conflict. So by the time the ASS-1 folded to Earth, the Supervision Army's ships were based on cruder technology than the Protoculture. I think this is the best guess for the sake of continuity.

A third possibility is that Kawamori just didn't care very much about these issues. Which is probably the real reason.

[ewilen]

I got to agree with Treatment on the whole DYRL? vs. SDF thing. It has bothered me for ages that many people take for granted that DYRL? must have worse character developement because it's far shorter than SDF. I see it as a matter of quality over quantity, myself.

I don't think anyone is taking it for granted. Many people feel that DYRL has less characterization both among the main characters and the minor ones. (People don't like what's happened to Kaifun--what about Kamujin?) Given the what they see, they're explaining it partly by the shortness of the movie compared to the TV show. But there are other reasons, too--for the length of the movie (just under 2 hours), I think there's also a lot of time which gets spent on audiovisual spectacle over story. (A minute here, a minute there, and it adds up. I just counted 5-6 minutes of song montage in the first 36 minutes.) The result is a treat for people who already know the story--you get a reanimation of all the highlights and a little mental exercise in observing how everything's been switched around. But for me, the characters aren't nearly as interesting without reference to what I've seen in SDF Macross.

[Prime]

About DYRL vs. M0...I still haven't gone back and watched M0 again in one sitting, but I wouldn't be surprised, once I do, if I find that I like M0 about as much as DYRL, if not more.

I was really surprised what a difference it made watching all the episodes at one time. It made it a much stronger story in my mind, and the "magic" elements seemed to fit better, to me at least. I'd say I like M0 just as much as DYRL now. I only came across DYRL in the last few years, so it doesn't have nearly the same nostalgic feeling as I'm sure it does to many.

In any event, I'd say watching M0 all together would be well worth the time. It certainly changed my initial perceptions...

[Keith]

I will say this, though--if the Protoculture did have the ability to make stuff like the AFOS and floating rocks, why doesn't the Macross have the same level of technology?

You're assuming that all Protoculture technology was created equal. They obviously didn't equip the Zentradi with such fancy equipment to the level of the AFOS, and hell, they didn't need it. When you look at the timespan of the Protoculture's existence, you can also assume there was a certain rate of technological growth. When the Zentradi were created, the technology shown for them was their current high level. But just because they used them as their soldiers, does not mean that the Protoculture didn't continue to technologically grow. Hell, the EVIL series shows that everything they were able to achieve mechanically, they found a way to replicate bio-mechanically (fold, reaction weapons, barirer shields, etc). The AFOS is a representation of that more sophisticated bio-technology.

As for the Macross itself, it was a Supervision Army ship. Which means that it was a refitted Zentradi (most likely female) ship, later refitted Earth ship. Being originally for Zentradi use, it used straight mechanical technology.

[ewilen]

So, even after the PC civil war broke out, the Protoculture on each side kept their best technology for themselves, instead of giving it to their proxy warriors. Then one side developed the EVIL series, which would have incorporated even more advanced technology, but neither side thought to use the existing AFOS-level tech in the war.

I don't buy it.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The floating rocks had special runes on them. Maybe this had something to do with them bieng able to float? Remember the intent of the shamen/magician is as important to the singing or spellcasting itself. Without one, the thing you are trying to make happen can fail.

When sara started singing her song of creation and the plants started growing, that was because she had her heart set on healing the forest. Now remember Hasford's speech about how music is not just the vibrations of wind, but a magical thing that touches people's soul? The earth itself and the plants and animals all can sing to manipulate things on the spiritual plane.

Nature itself (including the control of gravity and maybe even wind) was being controlled through magic to make those mysterious rocks move like that.

It's hard when you think about it from a technological perspective (especially because people think primitive cultures can't do anything like produce rain on demand for eg) but think of it as if the shamen can talk to beings from another parallel world (nature gods, spirit guides) who CAN control the forces of nature to do the person's bidding. This is why I think emotions might have a play on what the birdmech does. "We white people only believe what we can see."

In the compendium isn't there mention of a parrallel world? A sub-universe? By dabbling in magic the PC must have unleashed some nasty demons from this realm by mistake. And they were able to combine technology and thier know how of this alternate universe to create biomechanical machines to synthesise the magical effects of a shamanic spell. It's hard to swallow but if somebody here knows a shamen and can ask them to perform a rain dance to see if it really works... maybe people's beliefs about an alternate dimension beyond what we can see will change..

It was known that hitler was into the occult (just watch the indiana jones moviies) but because all this knowledge is supposed to be secret "occult", it is natural for the priestessess to want to hide and keep these secrets from the destructive white people who are likely to see them as witches and hunt them down, if not steal it and take the power for themselves. Knowledge about this alternate realm is supposed to be forbidden knowledge to those who can't control thier evil urges in the material world. Because the PC failed, (the accidental unleashing of demons for war, which got out of control?) maybe it is the human race that needs to take the torch and avoid the misuse of the magic power? (ie using music and love songs to undo the damage the pc caused)

Edited November 6, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I will say this, though--if the Protoculture did have the ability to make stuff like the AFOS and floating rocks, why doesn't the Macross have the same level of technology?

Do we know that it didn't? Why was the ship so valuable to the zentradi that they wouldn't dare want to hurt it? Even exedol had no record of this and hes the zentradi cheif archivist.

Maybe we didn't understand it, or just couldn't find materials on earth to repair it properly? I remember Claudia saying :"That's what you get for recycling parts.." after the incdient where the antigrav things burst through the sdf1.

If something is damaged and you don't even know how it works and you try to use parts that you think should be ok, but aren't tested (and the sdf1 was an untested ship) then all sorts of unexpected things will happen. They were probably concentrating on other things as we didn't see hover cars or vehicles to indicate man had mastered antigrav yet to be able to make just anything float. We don't even know if man used clean (and safe) free energy systems yet. Weren't conventional cars still being used which indicates they need fuel? The vf1's were the cutting edge so that's thier excuse for using advanced technology. The governments always use technology first on military defense and weapons,.....and then consumer products later. (after all, what good is having valuable things on your land if you can't defend it from enemies?)

In the future when the world runs out of natural resources how are we going to power our machines? We are going to need to find a way to renew the resources or rape another planet of its resources if we want to remain at a sustainable level of comfortable living that we have enjoyed in our industrialised society. This is why all the hippy environmental protection programs because the elite want to put us back in the stone age so they can keep the dwindling supplies for themselves. (controlling the prices will ensure they are kept in power and so long as they can suppress knowledge about alternative theories of efficient and free energy production, then they are happy.)

To me, the forest being a renewable resource for the primitives is a perfect example of people living in harmony with thier god and with nature. They don't need to rape other planets for resources because everything they have is recreated and recycled. The priestess I assume had the ability to read the intent of the whites and could see they were possessed by a kadun of greed (eg hasford using bribes to get the information about afos to use in the next generation of weapons) and this is reflected to by the ability of the afos to read the emotions of the pilot and see the black demon thingys that had possessed the people using the weapons (monster) against it. Maybe the afos provides the pilot with the goggles to see what can't be seen? (the evil living in the sub-universe) Because we only believe what we can see, we think of it all as just fantasy like Shin in episode 1 whose dream is to just end war by fighting in it; who merely wants a world which ceases to shake. (because of the constant bombs and devastation and killings probably)

To me those black clouds are probably symbolic of the similar mistake of the PC whose accidental unleashing of demons from this subuniverse resulted in extinction. If people fail to recognise the evil intents within themselves, the wars will keep going and people like shin etc won't realise thier dream.

Edited November 6, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JValk]

BTW Folks what did ANBU translate Roy's sempai's name as again? All I remember was that it had a manly last name, and a not so manly first name...something like Daisy Uvanov or something.

[Kyubi]

yep, Daisy Ivanov if I recall correctly.

[Keith]

So, even after the PC civil war broke out, the Protoculture on each side kept their best technology for themselves, instead of giving it to their proxy warriors. Then one side developed the EVIL series, which would have incorporated even more advanced technology, but neither side thought to use the existing AFOS-level tech in the war.

I don't buy it.

No, I'm saying that at the time of the war, the Zentradi had the top of the Protoculture technology. But as things went on, the Protoculture continued to develope their own technology further, while leaving the Zentradi static. If anything, the EVIL series were their attempt to implement AFOS level technology into the Zentradi.

In the compendium isn't there mention of a parrallel world? A sub-universe? By dabbling in magic the PC must have unleashed some nasty demons from this realm by mistake. And they were able to combine technology and thier know how of this alternate universe to create biomechanical machines to synthesise the magical effects of a shamanic spell. It's hard to swallow but if somebody here knows a shamen and can ask them to perform a rain dance to see if it really works... maybe people's beliefs about an alternate dimension beyond what we can see will change..

Not magic, but energy. Spiritia, Protodevelin, etc, are all forms of naturally occuring "energy" in Macross. The Protoculture in search of new forms of high energy production tapped into a sub-universe to draw a new high powered source, and channel it into the Super Dimension Organ. This energy turned out to be a sentient form of life, and due to its newly found lack of sustenance, went for the only thing it/they could, i.e. life energy (Macross again working off of the basis that all living things give off energy). These beings also had the ability to possess other living things as well, and went straight for the most powerful bodies they could, which was easy since those same bodies were the intended purpose of their energy, i.e. the EVIL seires, which became the Protodevelin.

Do we know that it didn't? Why was the ship so valuable to the zentradi that they wouldn't dare want to hurt it? Even exedol had no record of this and hes the zentradi cheif archivist.

Reaction weapons. The Zentradi lost their last reaction weapon making facilities many years before, and here is a huge oddity triple threat to them. Miclones, a rebuilt ship, & reaction weapons. They had hoped to steal the ability to make reaction weapons from them, but Bodolza later decided they were too much of a threat to risk it. The Macross contained no AFOS level technology. The scientists in Zero were amazed though that the mechanical technology found in the ASS-1 was so similar to the bio-tech found in the AFOS (agian proving that the Protoculture were able to replicate their earlier technological efforts with newer more "natural" biological means). When it comes down to it, the only things that the Protodevelin brought to the EVIL were the ability to possess, & to steal spiritia. All the rest of their abilities (fold, space flight, barrier shields, energy weapons) were built in by the Protoculture.

[ewilen]

There's just one point when ANBU has Ivanov's name as "Daisy" (at least in eps. 4-5; I generally watch the Infusion subs of 1-3 because they're the ones I have on disc). I think it's probably a case of the translater mishearing "DD" as "Daisy", but it could be a pun by the character (Roy, I think) or, yes, his real name.

Ivanov isn't Roy's sempai. He's his old instructor. I don't remember hearing if he calls him "sensei" at any point. The Infusion sub has Roy referring to him as "Lord Ivanov" early on.

1/1 Lowviz--basically what Keith said. Apologies in advance if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but perhaps your thinking is influenced by Robotech, in which the Zentradi chased the Macross to Earth because it had something special on board. In SDF Macross, they chase the ASS-1 to Earth simply because it appears to be a fleeing enemy ship, and it's standard practice to pursue an apparent kill and make sure it's dead. http://macross.anime.net/fallacies/errata/...aq/5/index.html

Keith, the Chronology has work on the EVIL series beginning in PC 2865. PC 2868 is when the sub-universe is discovered. Protoculture intervention in Earth evolution is PC 2870. Protodeviln war starts in PC 2871. Personally I see problems with the notion that portions of the experimental EVIL technology were put into widespread use for survey ships and colonies, but weren't used in an active civil war.

But there's also a problem with the fact that the AFOS is only supposed to be "several tens of thousands of years old" (according to M0 and and entry in the Compendium Encyclopedia), all of these events from the Chronology are more than 380,000 years ago. More trouble for those who are trying to create a strictly consistent narrative and chronology out of the various official Macross productions and data.

[TheLoneWolf]

Since when does animation make a series great?  If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

/me shakes head.

you're watching an anime, right? 

anime is japanese shorthand for animation.

therefore, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

Okaaaaay.

Since SDF Macross has poor animation, does that make it suck?

In terms of animation and the generation it was shown to, hell yeah.

...

I hope that answers your question.

No, I believe you missed the entire point of this diatribe.

There's no denying the role animation plays in an anime. However, the overall merit of anime is determined through a dynamic interplay of story, characters, dialogue, and animation. Naturally, there are other components too (ie: music, editing), but for the sake of brevity I've only listed four. From your posts, you're implying that animation is the primary factor in determining whether an anime is good. I quote again:

therefore, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

I have to disagree here. According to that statement, it's implied that the past 40 years of anime history are substandard simply due to animation quality. If you judge anime by that, would you be able to enjoy Macross Zero twenty years from now? Dialogue, characters, plot, that's what truly makes an anime able to stand the test of time. An anime that can carry the same level of admiration that it did decades earlier is truly a great anime.

Boy, this reminds me of kids who walk into a videogame store, pick up a 2D game and automatically say "What, it don't have 1 billion polygons?! lololol, this game Sux0r5! "

[azrael]

But there's also a problem with the fact that the AFOS is only supposed to be "several tens of thousands of years old" (according to M0 and and entry in the Compendium Encyclopedia), all of these events from the Chronology are more than 380,000 years ago. More trouble for those who are trying to create a strictly consistent narrative and chronology out of the various official Macross productions and data.

Actually, it says " conjectured to be over several ten thousand years old." The idea behind that dialog was to indicate that AFOS was really, really, really, really, really, really, really.... old. Which means they can accurately guess only up to a certain point on how old it was. It is probably older but they cannot accurately determine how old that thing is.

[treatment]

this will be quite a long and boring reply from me.

No, I believe you missed the entire point of this diatribe.

There's no denying the role animation plays in an anime.  However, the overall merit of anime is determined through a dynamic interplay of story, characters, dialogue, and animation.  Naturally, there are other components too (ie: music, editing), but for the sake of brevity I've only listed four. 

From your posts, you're implying that animation is the primary factor in determining whether an anime is good. 

What exactly kind of "overall merit" can you actually find in the art, animation and in the drawn-out/dragged-out story found in SDF-TV?

I think nostalgia is clouding your admiration for SDF-TV and are just refusing to acknowledge that it's art and animation only made it obvious of how it's really just an average story for an anime-production. You can try to cover SDF-TV's deficiencies by saying it had more character-development or plot or whatever, but that's just plain denial of the fact that it was really just an average anime tv-series that had some good ideas. Those same good ideas were put into good use and application and the end-result was the classic we all know (but some does not want to accept) as DYRL. Most don't accept DYRL prolly coz of denial again, i.e. because it's just different from what they'd accepted from TV-version. Unwilling to adjust.

SDF-TV was just a weak drawn-out/dragged-out anime series that's really only about the story between Hikaru's and Minmay's development. Every other character in TV was pretty much dependent on what those two characters were doing and not doing. It would've fit just perfectly in just 24-26 episodes rather than 36 eps.

That is why DYRL was better than TV in such the art, animation and the story were all upgraded to be presented better and alot tighter as it should've been in the first place than the dragged-out version that was in TV.

The correlation with Zero is that the animation in Zero is in fact spectacular and phenomenal against it's contemporaries in today's anime. Sure, there were a few rough spots with the hand-drawn cels integration, but those same rough spots were few and far between.

Zero's animation does carry the rather bewildering-yet-tight/consistent-story it's trying to tell the watchers. As such, it's a much more impressive and sophisticated series than any other series right now, except for Gits-SAC. The only speaking kid-character you have in Zero was Mao, and she was pretty much just a secondary-character.

People in this thread already say they like Zero better and more after re-watching all five-episodes together as one, rather than the piecemeal way the ova's were released, obtained and seen the first time around.

I have to disagree here.  According to that statement, it's implied that the past 40 years of anime history are substandard simply due to animation quality.

That's just a wrong and rather dubious assumption on your part.

According to my statement, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

As such,

the animation-quality in DYRL was quite superb. The animation-quality in SDF-TV was lackluster at best. The animation-quality in Plus and in Zero were spectacular and phenomenal. The animation-quality of M7 was weak and quite badly recycled.

Somebody will prolly harped in now about the OVA/Movie-quality vs TV-quality animation. It doesn't really matter. Superb is superb and weak is weak. To compare with other series, the contemporary Gundam-franchise (uc/ac) and Nadesico tv-series were really just better animated than the two Macross tv-series. However, the Gundam movies/ova does not have that same advantage over the Macross canon ova's/movie.

  If you judge anime by that, would you be able to enjoy Macross Zero twenty years from now?

I fully and unequivocally say to you now that I will enjoy Macross Zero twenty and more years from now. Just like I still fully enjoy DYRL and Plus after all these years.

I do not have nor get the same enjoyment-levels with the TV-version at all and that level even gets less and less as each year passes by. The fugly art and the scooby-doo-like animation are just too much to bear most of the time whenever I itched or get nostalgic to watch the TV-series.

Dialogue, characters, plot, that's what truly makes an anime able to stand the test of time.  An anime that can carry the same level of admiration that it did decades earlier is truly a great anime.

You just perfectly described DYRL to me and the others here. The dialogues, the characters and the plot in DYRL were all just plain simply better than the TV-version.

I'm not sure if that was your real intention, tho. Maybe you were trying to describe SDF-TV. I can never attribute what you described to SDF-TV at all.

That's about it.

Edited November 6, 2004 by treatment

[Agent ONE]

I feel DYRL is the second greatest movie ever created, but I have to agree with some here, it doesn't stand alone well. If you haven't seen SDFM they you are likely to be confused.