MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Keith]

BTW, I do like your take on the AFOS's purpose as a mecha, and perhaps that the pilot did mate with the first official mayan "human." Considering mating patterns, all Mayan islanders would have to have some of that blood though. Though considering the Protoculture's knack for turning any life they choose into a human form, I have no reason to doubt the Mayan people are directly evolved from fish as opposed to simians.

Considering that the Zentradi being derived from an entirely different form of life than humans were still "compatable, there's no reason to think that the same wouldn't be true for humans derived from fish & simians. The only Protoculture life so far that would have a compatability problem would seem to be the Zolans. I am surprised that no one has mentioned the similarity between Mayan & Zolan art though.

[treatment]

mikeszekely,

That was a pretty good analysis and I share most of it, but one part:

wiping out humankind.

This has been rather jumped on too much in this discussion without thinking more fully about it. I think it's a wrong assumption that the AFOS or Sara was going to wipe out the failed human-experiment entirely.

Recall Sara in the earlier episodes did not want people with guns to step on to Mayan's shores. And she was mostly opposed to strangers because they carry the "war-kadun" with them, i.e. Shin and the others. Therefore, she does favor her tribe, the Mayan, thereby eliminating the absolute "wiping out humankind" stuff.

Also, Sara-AFOS seems to only target the big capitol ships and the fighters/mechas dog-fighting and attacking the AFOS. Consider that Shin's VF-0 was miraculously spared from the Sara's attack when he just jettisoned his armaments, i.e. only his packs were hit and not the VF-0 itself. It was improbable that the VF-0 could have evaded such a frontal attack that killed the best ace in the series (DD Ivanov). And this was clearly before Sara recognized him as Shin.

Other than that, it's all good analysis.

[Keith]

What about Mylene's sister? She was definitely able to 'keep up with Basara'. In fact it was a huge battle to see who could outsing who and it was a very, very close battle. Or are you going to tell us that Max is descended from Mayans too?

Emilia didn't come close to keeping up with Basara in anything except for piloting. And no, Max isn't descended from Mayans, he's descended from Newtypes

This is totally raw speculation and you have zero evidence that Ray or Basara are descended from Mayans. It's not suggested or even implied by either Macross 7 or Macross Zero. The only vauge thread you have is that Ray has dark skin. Basara doesn't even have dark skin, just a high spiritia level

I never claimed it to be anything more than speculated, it is however speculation that I find interesting. As for DYRL, since Kawamori has semi-officially delegated it to being a movie within the series, and has said that the TV series still stands as the official original set of events (and this overrides earlier statements that looking at the story one way appears to play one way, and another way plays a different way), there's no reason to not believe that Zero takes place before the TV version of events.

Minmay in turn wasn't anything special (as someone already said), and herself didn't learn to fully put herself into her songs until after the series. What she did do however was put enough of herself into singing to wake interest in culture for the Zentradi. And that was what caused them to explore & accept human culture, making the large difference in the war. As for other singers, the Zentradi didn't come across them, and as far as has been shown, didn't bother checking out human broadcasts until they started investigating the Macross.

Beyond that, there isn't any real link as such to other parts of the series. I honestly believe there is *no* link to Macross 7 in this show other than the very basic Macross theme, and there isn't meant to be one. Nor is it needed.

I disagree. I see many links formed in Zero that connect to just about every Macross series, TV, Plus, 7, etc.

Which is why I'm saying the whole "Mayans come from fish" myth is just that, a myth.

Myth or not, does anyone disagree that the Protoculture had the technology to make it happen?

Please don't begin with the "who has more power?, this or that". First of all Basara was a looser, the entire Macross 7 series was a bad idea, how you will flight a Valkyrie playing a guitar and singing, please...

You have characters like Max Genius, that was a great fighter pilot, how you can compare Basara with Max, or even Isamu.

Your own jaded opinions aside, many of us did like Macross 7, and Kawamori hasn't even remotely denounced it in any way shape or form. Basara didn't play guitar while piloting, the Guitar was used as an alternate control scheme that worked the same as any other control setup (just in the shape of a guitar). How can I compare Basara with Max? I don't have to. Though I will compare him directly with Milia. More directly, Milia's lullaby

Ah, and before I forget, music did play a large role in Zero. Sara's song awakening her power to move objects, help plants grow, etc from episodes 2 onwards.

Edited November 4, 2004 by Keith

[Final Vegeta]

I think we should watch Macross Zero again to connect all pieces. I didn't remember Procacha ( = Protoculture).

FV

Edited November 4, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah, in my later edit I just double checked: the bird human was going against orders from the god of the heavens.

Meaning the chic who flew that ancient bird human somehow managed to fly back to heaven, as it mentions she leaves earth. (without the bird human, or maybe there was an extra birdmech lying around or something?)

In the legend I think there was something about her saying that when she comes back to her husband, it will only be "when the destiny of the stars crumble." (intergalacitc war?) So I'm still wondering then, is the husband still alive in ghost form? Mao has alpha bombay blood running in her so the human race could in fact be carrying PC genes as opposed to us merely having our genes affected due to genetic engineering or from a bunch of insects singing a song that creates life and we evolve.

They need a sixth part imo..

Maybe earth is somehow attacked again by this God Procacha or something? And the female rejoins her hubby? Perhaps this is SW II? Or maybe Shin was just replaying the role as the first human male, and Sara replaying the role of the first female, and they (husband+wife) re-united again in heaven when shin and sara disappeared? (ie of course they are not literally the human people in the legend, just playing the ROLE of what the legend prophecises will happen and they close the chapter; having fullfilled the ancient prophecy)

Keep in mind too the other usage of "star": the "stars" on the ground. All those rare species (maybe evolved or genetically modified from pc-instroduced diseases?) that were being created in the forest just prior to the anti-un bombing could be reffered to as stars on the ground because of the light they emitted. It was a prophetic sign. "when the destiny of the stars crumble" A foretelling of another event which is about to happen in space.(zentradi destroying other planets)

When those glowing insects (stars on the ground) died, you could say that was when Sara and shin were brought together closely and ultimatly they would go to heaven together as if they fell in love and played the figures in the legend. (Rooy Kanu and Rooy Waka) When the Afos+Sara left in ep5, it was taking its husband (played by shin) back to heaven after the destiny of the stars crumbled. (fireflies dying)

It's said that the flying fish were the first children of Rooy Kanu and Waka, so it had to be a mating of species with different genes, (genetic modification or evolution helped by the ancient afos bird which possibly was responsible for the wings on the fish which seemed to be unique to that island) or 2 people falling in love like how the legend tells of the 2 figures (1 female from the bird human culture mating with 1 male from underwater culture) who were united in the begining to provide company and children to each other, got seperated, and finally would meet again. ie shin and sara who both disappear in ep 5 to be mysteriously beamed to heaven.

Edited November 4, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Anubis]

Also Rooy Kanu and Waka might have made the flying fish because they felt like it. One liked fish, one liked birds. so they conbined them. Wouln't be a big deal for Protoculture to create some kind of novelty animal on the side. Kind of like how a company today wants to develop and sell hypoallergenic cats.

Gotta watch this show front to back still.

Edited November 4, 2004 by Anubis

[Gerwalker]

Hey, have you guys seen and understand M0 in it's original language? Maybe a lot of the things you are discussing here are wrong due to a poor translation!!

[mikeszekely]

Which is why I'm saying the whole "Mayans come from fish" myth is just that, a myth.

Myth or not, does anyone disagree that the Protoculture had the technology to make it happen?

I don't doubt that the Protoculture had the technology to make it happen... but from the radio dramas, we know that Zolans and humans were incompatible, and that Zolans have pouches like other marsupials. If the Protoculture created humanoids from fish, I'd expect them to have some fish characteristics, like scales or cold blood. Also, simians and marsupials are both mammals... fish are, well, fish. Now, evolution does say that, over millenia, fish do become mammals... but only by going fish-amphibian-reptile-bird-mammal, not directly from fish to mammals. When the Protoculture used their virus to manipulate evolution, from the two examples that we have, it seems that they chose the most advanced mammailian life on a given planet, and evolved it into intelligent life with the basic form of Protoculture.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the Nome family (and to a lesser degree, the rest of the Mayans) aren't special. Quite frankly, I think they are... but I think it's because they have Protoculture blood, not because they're literally decendend from fish.

Oh, and about the Protoculture and the Zentradi... I don't recall, either in the compendium or in Macross 7, that it said that the Protoculture were the ONLY sentient life in the galaxy... just that they were the FIRST sentient life in the galaxy. By the time they begin colonization of other planets, other, less advanced sentient life may have evolved independantly. I would even say that the Protoculture considered themselves so superior that, when colonizing, if they found other sentient life, they didn't just try to take the planet without the native's consent or try to coinhabit the planet... they probably considered other sentient life inferior and used the Zentradi to wipe them out.

[glane21]

I just watched part 5 last night and I have to say this whole series really disappointed me. In fact I think it sucked balls. I hate the whole magic hooey-pooey crap. Macross, to me, was always about the tech and the mech. Flying rocks? Bird Humans? Come on. This was like a totally different show with valks and Fokker thrown in to make a Macross connection. I never liked Shin nor gave a poo what happened to him or Sara. Character development was very poor.

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel. If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

[Mechamaniac]

I just watched part 5 last night and I have to say this whole series really disappointed me. In fact I think it sucked balls. I hate the whole magic hooey-pooey crap. Macross, to me, was always about the tech and the mech. Flying rocks? Bird Humans? Come on. This was like a totally different show with valks and Fokker thrown in to make a Macross connection. I never liked Shin nor gave a poo what happened to him or Sara. Character development was very poor.

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel. If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

I'm digging in with Greg on this one. I felt the same way about Zero as a whole.

I am willing to concede that overall, the series was worth it, if for no other reason, than we got to see some spectacular CG Valks and mechs, but aside from that, my overall opinion is MEH.

*starts digging foxhole, hands shovel to Glane21*

[LinxCrossq]

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel. If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

However Macross Plus is more like a side story compared to Macross 7. And yet again, I don't see why a lot of people consider flying rocks and birdhumans magical. As we seen the rocks could be related to the antigravity technology of the protoculture and we all agree that the birdhumans were the protoculture mechs.

Ah, and even though The Vision of Escaflowne takes place in a phantasy setting there's not much magical stuff in it as one could expect.

[Noyhauser]

Honestly the flying rock thing and AFOS argument is pissing me off. if you can believe that human technology can make this float

then you can sure as hell believe that the protoculture (A race far far far more advance than humans) can make a few rocks float around in a jungle. its just that simple.

[Noyhauser]

I just watched part 5 last night and I have to say this whole series really disappointed me.  In fact I think it sucked balls.  I hate the whole magic hooey-pooey crap.  Macross, to me, was always about the tech and the mech.  Flying rocks? Bird Humans? Come on.   This was like a totally different show with valks and Fokker thrown in to make a Macross connection.  I never liked Shin nor gave a poo what happened to him or Sara.  Character development was very poor.

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel.  If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

Honestly thats your interpretation of what Macross is, sorry to say you aren't Kawamori. I would say that the reason why macross plus is so different is that it wasn't ever intended to be a macross story at all, it was supposed to be of advanced air cavalry chronicles (or whatever he wanted to call it) to be made made after DYRL. The series would have nothing to do with macross. This is a direct quote of Kawamori found here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm

Having directed last year's Macross movie, I'd pretty much done all that I'd wanted to do with Macross. So Advanced Valkyrie isn't a sequel to Macross. Macross is a conglomeration of three aspects: the use of music, the use of characters, and mechanics. I want to try working separately from the Macross concept by focusing on each of these points individually. This time, the project is to dig into the mechanical aspect, and in particular the Valkyries. It focuses on aircraft, which I love more than anything else.

Thats exactly what SDF macross was, a synthesis of music characters ect, NOT just the valkyries. He later decided to use the Macross universe to tell the Advance Valkyrie story, however macross plus does not fit the pattern of the rest of the stories. Remove it, and you see a definate pattern between SDF, Macross 7, and Macross zero, going back to my original post months ago about japanese pacifism and the need for alternatives to war.

I'm sorry that you don't get that, you might have a view on what Macross is about, but its wrong, and likely does not follow Kawamori's view. If you don't like it, tough, stop watching and groaning about it. This forum is littered with the detritus of countless Macross 7 threads that have explained it again and again. And still people persist in saying, Oh well its nothing like SDF macross. Hello, maybe thats because what you think SDF macross is, isnt what it was intended to be by Kawamori. I can think of countless famous pieces of literature that have been misintrepreted by scholars to mean one thing, when the author really meant something else, that get illuminated by later pieces of work. Macross Zero only cemented the themes that Kawamori wanted to present. I think it is quite clear what Kawamori is getting at now after these three series have been put out there.

edited for clarity and typos

Edited November 4, 2004 by Noyhauser

[treatment]

I just watched part 5 last night and I have to say this whole series really disappointed me. In fact I think it sucked balls. I hate the whole magic hooey-pooey crap. Macross, to me, was always about the tech and the mech. Flying rocks? Bird Humans? Come on. This was like a totally different show with valks and Fokker thrown in to make a Macross connection. I never liked Shin nor gave a poo what happened to him or Sara. Character development was very poor.

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel. If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

hmm. I'm quite the Plus-fan here at MW (and elsewhere), but I do quite like Zero, too. Did not disappointed me at all. Even the music was surprisingly good.

Of course, I wasn't expecting much from Zero in the beginning, anyway. I knew it was gonna be different from all the Macross-series.

fwiw, Macross Zero is a prequel and set in wartime months before First Contact. Alot more restrictive environment. In contrast, Plus had the flexibility of being set 40 years ahead and in peacetime.

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

The only thing Plus has any real advantage of over Zero were just (arguably) in the character-dept and Yoko Kanno's music. Isamu totally rulz! But everyone else in Plus was pretty much equaled by Zero's characters in performance and quality of the vocals, more or less.

The "magic hooey-pooey crap" aren't even that bad, were quite few and were quite fully explainable and logically and smartly presented in the five episodes of Zero.

oh, well. if you got disappointed by Zero, that's quite unfortunate.

What I wrote above are not meant nor intended to convince you or anybody else that was disappointed with Zero. All I've done is just a counterpoint in that I wasn't disappointed by Zero and I rank it equal with Plus.

[Mechamaniac]

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

[treatment]

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

rol!

You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero.

[TheLoneWolf]

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

rol!

You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero.

Since when does animation make a series great? If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

[treatment]

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

rol!

You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero.

Since when does animation make a series great? If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

/me shakes head.

you're watching an anime, right?

anime is japanese shorthand for animation.

therefore, you always factor in animation-quality in every anime-series because that is what makes it anime.

if you don't want to factor in animation in any series, you might as well just read some manga or some static poster-graphics.

[Noyhauser]

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

rol!

You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero.

Since when does animation make a series great? If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

I would tend to agree with this comment. The best Japanese animations in my mind are Hegensagen Vom Kosmenief and Grave of Firefiles, and neither feature groundbreaking animiation, and at some times comes off shabbily compared to contemporaries. However both use the medium in a way to express their stories. Hegensagen would not be able to be done even today as a live action piece (because it relies so heavily on the fleet action scale). Animation technique (after watching Anime for most of my life) means little to me compared to the story. Sometimes its nice to see a well done anime, but if its got a terrible storyline, I'll shut it off within minutes. Conversely, if an anime is not well rendered, but has a wicked wicked plot and the sort, then I'll watch it through.

Edited November 4, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Prime]

After watching the entire series again, I think in the end I am quite impressed with it. Certainly the animation (CGI at parts at least) is fastastic. I am a big Plus fan and not a M7 fan at all, but I think Zero does a good job providing a balance. The first time I watched the series I found the "magic" stuff a little over the top. But watching it again just about everything seems to be explained or at least hinted at in terms original Macross concepts. Even though the AFOS was "out there," it was nice to see so many connections to the original Macross (main gun, barrier, etc.) To me, then really helped ground the series in the Macross universe. Not to argue about the quality of M7, but I think Kawamori did a much better job incorporating the spiritual/magical aspects of the story this time.

I'm not sure I buy the literal fish to human theory. I get the impression that the Mayan legends were metaphor and primitive descriptions of how the Protoculture altered life on Earth.

[Keith]

I just watched part 5 last night and I have to say this whole series really disappointed me.  In fact I think it sucked balls.  I hate the whole magic hooey-pooey crap.  Macross, to me, was always about the tech and the mech.  Flying rocks? Bird Humans? Come on.   This was like a totally different show with valks and Fokker thrown in to make a Macross connection.  I never liked Shin nor gave a poo what happened to him or Sara.  Character development was very poor.

Macross Plus had the right vein for a Macross sequel.  If Kawamori wanted to do magic, he should have done Escaflowne Zero.

Well, that's my opinion, commence the bombardment!

Honestly thats your interpretation of what Macross is, sorry to say you aren't Kawamori. I would say that the reason why macross plus is so different is that it wasn't ever intended to be a macross story at all, it was supposed to be of advanced air cavalry chronicles (or whatever he wanted to call it) to be made made after DYRL. The series would have nothing to do with macross. This is a direct quote of Kawamori found here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm

Having directed last year's Macross movie, I'd pretty much done all that I'd wanted to do with Macross. So Advanced Valkyrie isn't a sequel to Macross. Macross is a conglomeration of three aspects: the use of music, the use of characters, and mechanics. I want to try working separately from the Macross concept by focusing on each of these points individually. This time, the project is to dig into the mechanical aspect, and in particular the Valkyries. It focuses on aircraft, which I love more than anything else.

Thats exactly what SDF macross was, a synthesis of music characters ect, NOT just the valkyries. He later decided to use the Macross universe to tell the Advance Valkyrie story, however macross plus does not fit the pattern of the rest of the stories. Remove it, and you see a definate pattern between SDF, Macross 7, and Macross zero, going back to my original post months ago about japanese pacifism and the need for alternatives to war.

I'm sorry that you don't get that, you might have a view on what Macross is about, but its wrong, and likely does not follow Kawamori's view. If you don't like it, tough, stop watching and groaning about it. This forum is littered with the detritus of countless Macross 7 threads that have explained it again and again. And still people persist in saying, Oh well its nothing like SDF macross. Hello, maybe thats because what you think SDF macross is, isnt what it was intended to be by Kawamori. I can think of countless famous pieces of literature that have been misintrepreted by scholars to mean one thing, when the author really meant something else, that get illuminated by later pieces of work. Macross Zero only cemented the themes that Kawamori wanted to present. I think it is quite clear what Kawamori is getting at now after these three series have been put out there.

edited for clarity and typos

Hey, that's not my username!

[ewilen]

So is that a glitch or you just kidding because Noyhauser read your mind?

[Noyhauser]

I wrote the same thing about 6 months ago. Nobody really cared then, and nobody really cares now.

edit... it was almost a year ago now when I first made that post. where has the time gone?

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...t=0entry71940

Edited November 4, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Ido]

Noyhauser, I really like what do you wrote and I Agree.

Maybe who was introduced in the world of Macross by M+ or the crappy Robotech Macross Saga have more problem to understand the real Macross, I can say this seeing my Bro.

[glane21]

Honestly thats your interpretation of what Macross is, sorry to say you aren't Kawamori. I would say that the reason why macross plus is so different is that it wasn't ever intended to be a macross story at all, it was supposed to be of advanced air cavalry chronicles (or whatever he wanted to call it) to be made made after DYRL. The series would have nothing to do with macross. This is a direct quote of Kawamori found here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm

Having directed last year's Macross movie, I'd pretty much done all that I'd wanted to do with Macross. So Advanced Valkyrie isn't a sequel to Macross. Macross is a conglomeration of three aspects: the use of music, the use of characters, and mechanics. I want to try working separately from the Macross concept by focusing on each of these points individually. This time, the project is to dig into the mechanical aspect, and in particular the Valkyries. It focuses on aircraft, which I love more than anything else.

Thats exactly what SDF macross was, a synthesis of music characters ect, NOT just the valkyries. He later decided to use the Macross universe to tell the Advance Valkyrie story, however macross plus does not fit the pattern of the rest of the stories. Remove it, and you see a definate pattern between SDF, Macross 7, and Macross zero, going back to my original post months ago about japanese pacifism and the need for alternatives to war.

I'm sorry that you don't get that, you might have a view on what Macross is about, but its wrong, and likely does not follow Kawamori's view. If you don't like it, tough, stop watching and groaning about it. This forum is littered with the detritus of countless Macross 7 threads that have explained it again and again. And still people persist in saying, Oh well its nothing like SDF macross. Hello, maybe thats because what you think SDF macross is, isnt what it was intended to be by Kawamori. I can think of countless famous pieces of literature that have been misintrepreted by scholars to mean one thing, when the author really meant something else, that get illuminated by later pieces of work. Macross Zero only cemented the themes that Kawamori wanted to present. I think it is quite clear what Kawamori is getting at now after these three series have been put out there.

edited for clarity and typos

Yeah, I know Macross is more than just the valkyries. I like the characters in the other shows very much. Can you say you care as much about Shin as say, Hikaru?

So, the characters, music, and mech that Kawamori mentions, I'm all for that. Zero obviously goes beyond those elements, for me too far, and at the expense of good story and character development. Maybe if Zero was loonger, I'd have gotten more of that and liked it more. As it is, I think it sucks.

Glad you like it though, and that it provides you hours of speculation about whether bird humans are flying fish that evolved from protoculture semen and spawned humans that disappear to the stars in barrier forcefield folds because they feel love and not Kundun anger while singing the song of life in a big floating flower

[AlphaHX]

However Macross Plus is more like a side story compared to Macross 7. And yet again, I don't see why a lot of people consider flying rocks and birdhumans magical. As we seen the rocks could be related to the antigravity technology of the protoculture and we all agree that the birdhumans were the protoculture mechs.

Ah, and even though The Vision of Escaflowne takes place in a phantasy setting there's not much magical stuff in it as one could expect.

Honestly the flying rock thing and AFOS argument is pissing me off. if you can believe that human technology can make this float

then you can sure as hell believe that the protoculture (A race far far far more advance than humans) can make a few rocks float around in a jungle. its just that simple.

To start off, I would like to say I like mzero... so I'm not just ranting to bash it. I found it different but I still enjoyed it.

As far as this "magic" argument goes as I'm concern, when it comes down to it, it doesnt really matter if it was actually "magic" voodoo hocus pocus or not. The original sdf macross series began macross as a series with the usage of aliens techlogy we were able to make these "physically impossible" ships and spacecrafts. So basically it was based off "higher" technology that was unexplained and was up to our imagination on how an aircraft could perform in such absurb ways.

By adding rocks related to antigravity technology, it kind of throws off the "technology" that we see it as today. is it possible? sure. in the technology standpoint of how we see it today, whats more believable? advance alien technology or song powered flying rocks? the "advance alien technology" has been used in books movies etc for awhile now and all we have to believe is that there are aliens out there and theres a possibility that they have the resources and intelligence to make something that is out of reach to us (at this time). flying rocks imo, is not a concept that is as easy to grasp. is the rock made of a material that is easily disrupted by sound waves and the particles expand and have it filled with more air so it eventually becomes so light it can fly? i dunno, you dunt know. its kinda hard to explain any of the details behind it. for sdfm, people can come up with random details for it, big rockets, special metal... etc etc. is it possible even with their absurb rockets and metal? still probably not but at least theres a half explanation for it. Also on top of all that in mzero, theres mao who can halographically display herself in shin's ship to help him. If she had some halographic machine she was using it would be a bit more feasible but like otheres, its hard for me to swallow as technology with no explanation. True, someone here may give me an explanation... but am I going to take it as some over analyzed theory... probably, unless there was some exteremely explicit in mzero that proves me otherwise.

People are disliking it due to the lack of connection to the original sdfm story and the new take of "technology" that is used in mzero. I dont see why people are taking it so offensively when a "macross fan" dislikes a macross show. There are plenty of those, I think I can safely assume that a lot more people who dislike macross 7 than macross zero. So lets give this a rest and stop bashing the hell out of each other for something that cannot be solved by beating teh dead horse senseless. Some ppl think its magic and they dislike it... some think its magic and like it. Its their opinion... and I dont think you can create much "fact" to counter-argue out of either argument without over analyzing the living hell out of something so lets not go there. So its based on intepretation and other peoples are just different, lets not get worked up about it people.

Edited November 4, 2004 by AlphaHX

[Noyhauser]

Yeah, I know Macross is more than just the valkyries. I like the characters in the other shows very much. Can you say you care as much about Shin as say, Hikaru?

So, the characters, music, and mech that Kawamori mentions, I'm all for that. Zero obviously goes beyond those elements, for me too far, and at the expense of good story and character development. Maybe if Zero was loonger, I'd have gotten more of that and liked it more. As it is, I think it sucks.

I also don't see how you can compare the how much you like a character from a whole TV show and compare it to one of a 2 hour movie. I think if you wanted to compare something, watch DYRL ONLY, and then compare if you like Hikaru more than Shin. Do you really think that DYRL Hikaru is more developed than M-Zero Shin, or M+ guld? Actually I think he's less developed than most of these characters.

Glad you like it though, and that it provides you hours of speculation about whether bird humans are flying fish that evolved from protoculture semen and spawned humans that disappear to the stars in barrier forcefield folds because they feel love and not Kundun anger while singing the song of life in a big floating flower

ooooooh good one, hey let me try!

Good on you for coming onto a web message board to talk about a 25 year old cartoon that features fighter planes in space that transform into robots and fight 60 foot tall aliens that get scared of their erection when they see girl sing a song.

You've really proved your point haven't you?

Edited November 4, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Noyhauser]

Actually Alpha what I think is the question isn't the technology, but how the aliens use the technology

Look at it this way, question why advanced alien culture has to follow human norms. For example, almost all science fiction products dismiss the question of religion. They think it to be something that is of a primeval past that will be discarded in the future, and thats wrong. Actually I call it startrek syndrome, where aliens are percieved to have cultures that resemble our own. It was a standing rule in startrek by gene rodennberry to have aliens that resemble humaniods, and act like them too. So when people watch something like Macross zero, they are like, WTF?!?!? why would the protoculture, such and advanced race make floating stones? I ask you know whats so wrong with the Protoculture culture maintaning some elements of mysticism? Is is so abhorrent to think that they will retain or use symbolism in their advanced state? I think in actuality it is realistic. It might be how their culture is organized.

[AlphaHX]

Actually Alpha what I think is the question isn't the technology, but how the aliens use the technology

Look at it this way, question why advanced alien culture has to follow human norms. For example, almost all science fiction products dismiss the question of religion. They think it to be something that is of a primeval past that will be discarded in the future, and thats wrong. Actually I call it startrek syndrome, where aliens are percieved to have cultures that resemble our own. It was a standing rule in startrek by gene rodennberry to have aliens that resemble humaniods, and act like them too. So when people watch something like Macross zero, they are like, WTF?!?!? why would the protoculture, such and advanced race make floating stones? I ask you know whats so wrong with the Protoculture culture maintaning some elements of mysticism? Is is so abhorrent to think that they will retain or use symbolism in their advanced state? I think in actuality it is realistic. It might be how their culture is organized.

good point. i can see that.

doesnt really mean that others will tho.

like i said we all have different intepretations. i have nothing against it. i just dont see the point of getting worked up over it.

[glane21]

Yeah, I know Macross is more than just the valkyries. I like the characters in the other shows very much. Can you say you care as much about Shin as say, Hikaru?

So, the characters, music, and mech that Kawamori mentions, I'm all for that. Zero obviously goes beyond those elements, for me too far, and at the expense of good story and character development. Maybe if Zero was loonger, I'd have gotten more of that and liked it more. As it is, I think it sucks.

I also don't see how you can compare the how much you like a character from a whole TV show and compare it to one of a 2 hour movie. I think if you wanted to compare something, watch DYRL ONLY, and then compare if you like Hikaru more than Shin. Do you really think that DYRL Hikaru is more developed than M-Zero Shin, or M+ guld? Actually I think he's less developed than most of these characters.

Glad you like it though, and that it provides you hours of speculation about whether bird humans are flying fish that evolved from protoculture semen and spawned humans that disappear to the stars in barrier forcefield folds because they feel love and not Kundun anger while singing the song of life in a big floating flower

ooooooh good one, hey let me try!

Good on you for coming onto a web message board to talk about a 25 year old cartoon that features fighter planes in space that transform into robots and fight 60 foot tall aliens that get scared of their erection when they see girl sing a song.

You've really proved your point haven't you?

Yep!

Do you like Zero better than DYRL? Be honest...

[Noyhauser]

good point. i can see that.

doesnt really mean that others will tho.

like i said we all have different intepretations. i have nothing against it. i just dont see the point of getting worked up over it.

oh I don't either, I've been saying the same thing for the last year and people still don't agree with me, nor would I expect people to. I just try to explain what I see from the knowledge that I have. Whether or not one agree with my view is completely up to them

Edited November 4, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Noyhauser]

Do you like Zero better than DYRL? Be honest...

I don't think its really a fair question. I watched DYRL when I was 6 years old. It shaped my imagination in ways that most people couldn't understand (well maybe some of you can ). My favorite toy was a Bandai Super Deformed Hikaru VF-1. My views are tainted in that way.

To be honest? Some aspects of M-0 that I like better, especially the realism aspect of VFs. To me now, I can understand how VFs work and how they fight compared to our modern fighters. I really couldn't do that at all before hand. As I said earlier, the helmet mounted sight they use actually is a derivative of the bleeding edge research that one of my best friend carries out. That makes it real.

As an overall movie though, I like DYRL better (not by so much though). DYRL is a bit rushed to me, and it has some problems. The TV continuity makes more sense. However, that was never my point of my first post. I don't think Macross zero a bad movie or even close to one, I can see why people think so, but that because you EXPECT it to be a certain way. That was what I was getting at, not that DYRL or M-0 was better or worse.

(sorry for editing everything, I'm just terrible at editing before I post)

Edited November 5, 2004 by Noyhauser

[glane21]

Do you like Zero better than DYRL? Be honest...

I don't think its really a fair question. I watched DYRL when I was 6 years old. It shaped my imagination in ways that most people couldn't understand (well maybe some of you can ). My favorite toy was a Bandai Super Deformed Hikaru VF-1. My views are tainted in that way.

To be honest? Some aspects of M-0 that I like better, especially the realism aspect of VFs. To me now, I can understand how VFs work and how they fight compared to our modern fighters. I really couldn't do that at all before hand. As I said earlier, the helmet mounted sight they use actually is a derivative of the bleeding edge research that one of my best friend carries out. That makes it real.

As an overall movie though, I like DYRL better (not by so much though). DYRL is a bit rushed to me, and it has some problems. The TV continuity makes more sense. However, that was never my point of my first post. I don't think Macross zero a bad movie or even close to one, I can see why people think so, but that because you EXPECT it to be a certain way. That was what I was getting at, not that DYRL or M-0 was better or worse.

(sorry for editing everything, I'm just terrible at editing before I post)

I think we agree more than we disagree. I dig the innovations of the Zero mechs for sure (even though they "disrupt" the timeline of the series). I like the thrust vectoring and the stealth design of the carrier and all that.

DYRL benefits from fans knowing the series so they don't have to spend time backfilling the why and the what. Zero should have that same benefit to some extent but doesn't really connect the dots very well. Many people, including me, were expecting more of a direct prequel than it turned out to be. So sure I feel let down and didn't really like the overall story. Doesn't mean I'm a dunce or and A-hole.

[ewilen]

I wrote the same thing about 6 months ago. Nobody really cared then, and nobody really cares now.

Count me as one of the nobodies who cares, and by and large agrees.

About DYRL vs. M0...I still haven't gone back and watched M0 again in one sitting, but I wouldn't be surprised, once I do, if I find that I like M0 about as much as DYRL, if not more. I think that would certainly be the case if I'd never seen SDF Macross, because I really don't believe DYRL works all that well unless you know the SDF Macross story already. M0 works fine all by itself.

[Noyhauser]

Thanks, I didn't mean that as a sleight against you at all ewilien. Just that most people come in and say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.