MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[ewilen]

The episode telling about the PC factions was 30 something of Macross 7, "Mystery of the ruins?" It's what Exedor read off of the Protoculture glyphs while entering the temple/trap.

Thanks, found it. From http://www.chaoticempire.org/macross/eps/ep37.txt :

``We, the Protoculture have lived on a planet of greenery and abundance. We established small settlement and gathered fruit and caught fish, living in peace.''

By the time we had developed metal tools and farming implements, and had learned to plow the land, our numbers had grown, and we had divided into two peoples, in two separate areas.''

``Furthermore, industry and agriculture developed, and there were many political and economic exchanges among us.''

``Eventually, our race ventured out into space, but divided into two factions, and a war began. This war eventually extended all across the Universe.''

``Our race created the giant soldiers Zentraedi so that we would not have to stain our own hands in battle.''

``The creation of weapons escalated, and eventually a soldiers stronger than the Zentraedi, the `Evil' were created.''

I agree that this supports your view that the Zentradi were made after the war began. But I still think the Chronology implies otherwise. And furthermore, since the Zentradi were originally programmed not to fight Protoculture, what good would they be in a civil war?

And are pearl divers able to breath air into others while deep underwater??? Perhaps so, but I know I'd freak out if I ever saw someone swim that well, and for so long, with no aid whatsoever.

So far I've found that Polynesian pearl divers can dive about 100 feet and stay under for 2 minutes. World records (depending on the exact rules) are much deeper/longer.

http://www.aida-international.org/current_world_records.htm

http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/cros...s.asp?theID=139

http://www.apnea.nl/UK-Geschtuamotu.htm

As for Shin, while he may have thought Sara lost, there's no reason for him to believe she was dead. Especailly since for all intents, she came back for him & brought him with her.

Before she comes back, he says she "sacrificed [her] life to save the island and the world". Then she reappears in a noncorporeal form. It's not really clear to me whether she physically died but lives on spiritually, or if she was okay after the blast and is now "projecting" the same way Mao did.

[Duke Togo]

Ok, after finally watching Episode 5, I think you can stick me in with the "WTF was THAT?!" group. Where does this fit into the Macross continuity? Granted, its not flat out dumb like 7 was, and the battle scenes were amazing... this just didn't come across as being a "Macross" story. Maybe they decided to make Macross the new Gundam or something, lets just see how much we can screw with the story.

[Keith]

The Protoculture thought themselves civilized creating the Zentradi to fight their wars for them. Both sides would have to agree to the terms (i.e. the Zentradi wasn't created by one side to whipe out the other). And as such, instead of Protoculture killing Protoculture, it turned to Zentradi killing Zentradi. That was the nature of the vast intergalactic Protoculture civil war.

We can also determine that the sides were likely seperated by sex (Zentradi, not Protoculture) but the war with the Protodevelin caused many fleet's to combine (such as Bodolza's) & integrate due to heavy losses.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

[WARNING LONG POST- AN ANALYSIS OF 5 PARTS]

Just watched all eps.

Wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. The only thing I had a problem with was the way nora and ivanov had died. Really waste of an opportunity to have the last duel. But when you consider that's all they do for the whole series, it adds a little twist to have them taken out by the aifos.

The overall theme of love and forgiveness within the creation myth runs throughout the whole thing nicely. The bird human was probably able to sense and feed off the hate of Sara and responded according to her emotions. Unlike a mech which would respond to phyical control, this thing is able to sense what the person is feeling.(eg was when the head glows after seeing mao and shin kissing) Sara may have been in control of the aifos, but was she in control of her feelings?

The human race was never really meant to live imo. Because in the legend the bird cut its head off and had disobeyed orders from its master to destroy the planet. The only reason it must have cut its head off was because of something it may have loved on the planet. It was more like it felt sorry and wanted to forgive the inhabitants for being imperfect the way they were. Similar to how sara and shin had tried to carry and repress thier hate about losing thier parents and didn't want to trust people, but through love could forgive people for the pain in thier pasts.

So they just held onto the negative atitude for so long that the only thing they could do to relieve themselves is to experience love. If evolutionary steps are just mutations and mistakes that nature makes, then these two can learn from thier mistakes and gain knowledge from each other's differences that become seeds for the new hybrid generation. Sara was going to be one lonely gal once all her people discovered the cities and moved there. Her bloodline/genes may have needed to pass onto a generation exposed to more than a simple life. The PC gene would die off along with the abilities of her people given that she was the only one who was given the guardian powers.

I like to think that sara is just a Misa Hayes in island form. Always sticking to the rigid rules and never being honest with herself and her imperfections. Less able to open up to people. Distancing herself from others and putting herself in a position where she risks living a life of isolation and loneliness. When a person gets to the point where they won't breed to carry on thier genes for the next generation, it's no wonder certain species become extinct! The Bird human's legend of sacrifice was an example of love which allows and accepts both the good AND bad in people even if they may not deserve to live. Ths lessen is to teach us all to pass on forgiveness to our enemies if we expect forgiveness from others. Of course unless people excorcise thier demons of fear, hate, anger.. etc they will continue to want to get revenge (like nora and ivanov) and bring about an endless cycle of killing and bloodletting leading to extinction. Forgiveness vs an endless cycle of revenge. Forgiveness being the symptom of love, revenge a symptom of hate.

If the Bird Human in the legend didn't have faith in humans to cut its own head off in the beginning, (like the faith Shin has in Sara, by shedding his fear; and the faith of Sara in Shin once she got to know him) then there would be no chance for the human race to go on. A whole species hangs by a thread on 1 person being able to love another and learning to forget thier pain. Even minmay had no faith in her original singing in stopping the war in DYRL, until being convinced. Similar theme here.

In war people cling to thier need to overpower and control others because they are scared of each other. I'm guessing this is why the UN had to steal the transformation technology off the anti-un because they were afraid of being left behind in the arms race. The reason I think the anti-UN Octos can transform while the UN cheyenne can't is because the anti-un stumbled upon the idea first, and the UN, having eventually defeated them, got to write the official history.

But because the UN didn't follow its own rules by announcing these findings to the hardworking tax payers who are funding the research into all these technologies, the anti-un can be cynical about who really stole what from whom. (doesn't it belong to everyone?) Under the UN united perspective, they had it first and they can say whatever they want with the public believing thier version of the story. It's all so topsecret and shadowy, with the UN being able to control the flow of information. Just like in the SDF: Macross tv series where the people had absolutely no idea that the planes could transform into giant robots right until the first giant invasion. Without honesty and trust from the begining, it's no wonder you invite dissenters like Kaifun. When you fear and don't trust the people below you, they will fear you; creating stellar republic-style splits.

Mankind could evolve easier if certain people shed thier fear of the past and open thier hearts up to give others chances. People like misa, the perfect woman who can't learn to relax, tend to destroy the chances of others around them in trying to live up to that person's high expectations. As a result, people who hang around character's like misa just give up because they are scared to aproach them. I've met people like that in real life who can't learn to love, and expect you to be perfect with them, imposing rules to limit what is acceptable. If you want to relate that to M0: It was only after Sara stopped being so judgemental, that the species had another chance at survival. (Imo we already failed the test when the anti-un and un were destroying whole civilisations just to ensure they could either have the power for themselves, or deny the power to thier enemy through destroying things)

Even though humans didn't deserve to live, we can survive if people:

a) didn't impose laws on others to control them and then go around and break thier own laws in secret and be hypocrits. The un is guilty here. Since military power and selfish control of information is the means to an end. This happens all the time where the same rules are not applied to those in powerful positions, or the ones in power are able to just whitewash themselves and lie.

b) had faith enough to forgive the past and move on. The anti-un characters just wanted revenge such that bombing innocent people neutral to either side in the war is perfectly justified to them. That behaviour would not get much sympathy from the audience just because you were beaten in by someone in the past.

They are both the reasons for continued fighting, and for why wars keep going, proving that the evil and lack of trust of others is really just within everyone (as a darkside to the personality) and it's a never-ending spiritual battle. You could say that Sara herself was evil (NOT in control of her feelings) when she wanted revenge on the human race for the injustices commited against her people (and her reactions were perfectly justfied...but still wrong) but going by the idea that even if we don't deserve to live, (like I said humans failed the test long before the birdhuman was awakened imo) the lessen of forgiveness, learning to let go of fear was the most important thing to species survival. (even animals don't hold grudges)

Taken to a mass scale it's only when people think they are too perfect (misa and Hikaru's first encounters and fights) and impose thier stupid rules unto others because they are narrowminded and can't accept other people's diverse qualities, that starts wars and leads to death. Eg. the fishpeople's original insults about the bird people lacking as much knowledge of the sea, which started the rift in the first place. Obviously fish and bird, like the wind and the sea, could learn to live in harmony, but nooo someobody had to think they were higher in importance and let thier fear and insecurity against cultures that happen to look different to themselves get in the way of things... which eventually led to the fall of man.(or "fishpeople with legs" however you want to call them )

The truth is: What makes us human are those unique imperfections; those mistakes and character frailties and flaws that were given to us that may be helpful in evolution when combined with other species/cultures who can complement our unique abilities to allow newer and better generations with mixed genes, resulting in generations with abilities of both species. Like the flying fish, the wind and the sea, this symbolised the melding of two cultures that resulted in benefits for both. Magick when combined with technology seems to be the protoculture's motif after all. Almost as if they were masters of material and spiritual realms, minus the unique culture we created for ourselves by integrating zentradi, possible PC, and human blood. It's when the split occurs (due to hate and fears because of greed and of the fear of what others wuld use with power) that chances for species survival lessen as both sides try killing each other off.

The machine they left behind may have anticipated all of this fear and anger but didn't care if we failed the test, just like the legend of the bird human which cut its head off to go against orders from above, to destroy everything. (Hasford reveals this crucual piece of the myth showing picture of a beheaded birdman to prevent the order from going ahead) If the mayan god gave up, and lost faith in us they would have easily destroyed us from the start, instead of ordering incompetant underlings to destroy the human race who keep going against orders. In other words, god anticpated our failure (and the failure of the bird human in destroying us by it deliberately not following rigid set of orders) all along since it knew the outcome but needed certain influential figures to meet up before allowing the remains of the birdmachine in finally leaving. Because the bird human felt sorrow, by not destroying us as ordered, it learned love. The lesson all humans (and later zentradi), had forgotten.

The goal all along wasn't so much a test but was to set up compassion between two completely different people from different backgrounds to prove that there was hope after all. (it was a repeat of the ancient legend for today) The lesson was mainly for those who had stopped believing. (that is most of the younger mayan islanders who had stopped believing thier own legends and moved to the cities. Giving up thier peaceful culture and being a part of the war machine by joining UN) To me a "test" is merely to see if you deserve to live. (ie "if don't follow these rules, you will be killed." Inciting fear) Whereas a lesson shows man is in complete control, but god will love you and keep the faith and promises. If men kill themselves that is thier problem for turning thier backs on the lessons, since god had the capability to destroy us (and chose not to out of love) whenever he wants. It's only when man forgets love and compassion and loses faith in others(other cultures, other people), does he risk destroying everything he has. (including his loved ones) Contrary to what all the mad scientists believe, if evolutionary steps are to be taken we must be prepared to accept imperfections, because that is how nature works in evolving us, through mistakes. (Aries theory of passing our unique 'diseased' genes, and our love, to another species to help evolve them)

Edited November 3, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Agent ONE]

DT read this:

What you may have missed in Macross ZERO.

The purpose of the AFOS was to make sure that the Protoculture didn't create another race like the Zjentohlauedy/Meltohlauedy. The purpose of creating humanity was to have a "restart" of culture, as the protoculture ruined their own.

Think of the AFOS as like a artifact or symbol that ancient cultures leave behind... Some are just to honor someone, but some are also a reminder of "what NOT to do." We write books about Hitler not to revere him, but to alert future generations of the horrible potential that one man can have. The AFOS just went a step furthur... Instead of teaching us a lesson, it administered a test. that test being a test of 2 questions...

1. Has mankind achieved space travel. if yes go to question #2.

2. Does mankind still wage war (keep in mind the definition of waging war, and having emotion was probably different to the Protoculture... As the wars they were accostomed to for thousands of years involved completely emotionless beings)? If yes destroy all.

The second Sarah felt an emotion other than rage, the AFOS thought, "oh, I guess they aren't like my creators were, and they also aren't like the Zjentohlauedy or

Meltohlauedy... I guess I should stop killing everything."

How does this fit in with the rest of Macross?

The Protoculture tested humanity in MZero by leaving the AFOS behind.. This was to ensure that humanity wouldn't make the same mistakes that the Protoculture did, by creating thoughtless emotionless killing machines.

Humanity then tested the Zjentohlauedy and Meltohlauedy in the final battle with Bodolza and Laplamez in DYRL (also in SDFM). Some of both sides turned out NOT to be those mindless thoughtless killing machines so they were spared.

Humanity tested itself in Macross Plus by almost making the same mistakes the Protoculture did. Think about it... Humans were going to created automated AI systems that would kill without thought.... Just like the Zjentohlauedy, just like the Meltohlauedy and just like the Protodevlin.

[bsu legato]

What you may have missed in Macross ZERO.

Beautiful, man. That brings a tear to me eye. You've summed Zero up perfectly.

[Agent ONE]

What you may have missed in Macross ZERO.

Beautiful, man. That brings a tear to me eye. You've summed Zero up perfectly.

Thanks man... I am really into Zero, I want to make sure that everyone gets to see my insight in it.

[Gunbuster]

Agent one, that's pretty good and short to the point, but I'm in the same boat as Duke Togo. Amazing fights, amazing animation and art, but so much "magic"@_@;; How come we dont see these Mayan in the "future" of Macross (the series or the movie) using their "magic" (other people call it the "force" from Star Wars). I don't know.. I feel like this was a "Lucas syndrone".

[azrael]

How come we dont see these Mayan in the "future" of Macross (the series or the movie) using their "magic" (other people call it the "force" from Star Wars).

Cuz the other stories aren't about them.

So far I've found that Polynesian pearl divers can dive about 100 feet and stay under for 2 minutes. World records (depending on the exact rules) are much deeper/longer.

And I still say that whole Mayans came from fish, etc. is just part of their myth.

[Keith]

And I still say that whole Mayans came from fish, etc. is just part of their myth.

Considering we know life on Zola is comprised of marsupials (prooven even further by the Zolio & Zoliette radio play), there's no reason to doubt that the Mayan's are descended from fish.

Agent one, that's pretty good and short to the point, but I'm in the same boat as Duke Togo. Amazing fights, amazing animation and art, but so much "magic"@_@;; How come we dont see these Mayan in the "future" of Macross (the series or the movie) using their "magic" (other people call it the "force" from Star Wars). I don't know.. I feel like this was a "Lucas syndrone".

I still say there's a good chance that Ray is descended from them. But all things considered, with over 90% of the Earth's populated whiped out, Kawamori could have included hobbits & ogers as well & been quite safe As for the power itself, we do see it resurface.

[peter]

I liked Macross a whole lot better when it was just airplanes that could transform into robots that fought giant aliens no bigger than a 3 storey building.

[Ginrai]

As for connections with 7, I still think its a viable theory that Ray could have been a child on the island, and hell, perhaps Basara is directly Shamen blood, Mao was still alive at the end, and would have been well within child bearing years when Basara was born.

Uh, and how is Mylene able to do the song energy stuff then? Or is it supposed to be her Zentradi/Maltrandi blood? And her sister could do it too... I kind of got the impression that ANYONE could use singing that way if they had high spiritia or whatever.

[Duke Togo]

I liked Macross a whole lot better when it was just airplanes that could transform into robots that fought giant aliens no bigger than a 3 storey building.

Amen, brother.

[Bariaburu Faita]

Hey there. I have been gone for four or five days or so and this page has grown way too much for me to trace the Protoculture topic, so I'm just gonna go onto something else for a while.

I kept meaning to see what the Japanese fans thought of volume 5, and I just came back from looking at the Official Japanese BBS (yeah, that piece of crap... You'd think that at least in an official site they'd use a proper forum or something, but no..).

Anyway, man, has that place changed or is it just me? Everyone is usually ridiculously polite to each other but at the moment there is constant bickering about something to do with the recent Niigata earthquakes, I dunno what was said since the original post has long since been deleted, but the bitching level is extraordinarily high for that kind of board.

Apart from that, opinions on ZERO FIVE seem to be the same as over here-- some people love it, it's the best thing EVARR, and some people are going like "Was that it?? Huh." Many agree that the characters who died were not fleshed out enough in the run-up to the climax to care about, while other cried tears of happiness (apparently).

Plus the odd "Wow, this is great, lots of Macross fans here. Really feels like the official homepage, huh".

Well, that's all from Macross Land Japan.

(I'll say it again, but that board SUCKS. The reason we have hardly any Japanese members here on MW is that few can be bothered to type in or read English. Long ago there were pleas from MW members for a Spanish forum. I don't see the point of that, but it might be an idea to open up a Japanese forum and see how that goes, bring some of those people over. I might post this in the suggestion forum. Realistically speaking, it may not work, but could be worth a try.)

Very little point in opening a Japanese forum here unless we can get ahold of some automatic translating software.

And besides, they are already here. Notice the "guests" that are always here at odd hours? I personaly know several who lurk here without an account. Look at all the Japanese Macross fansites that have Macrossworld in the links section.

[Final Vegeta]

About the FAST Pack, you have to consider official mecha design comes from DYRL, and that's why in Zero the throttle is used to transform the VF. Since in DYRL everyone was using FAST Packs from the beginning, therefore even in Macross Zero everyone has them.

I just noted Compendium has silently updated some pages (i.e.: Monster's and SV-51's). From VF-0's page:

STRUCTURE: Space metal materials are used for the composition of the fuselage's frame, but titanium/carbon composite is used for the outer skin.

FV

Edited November 3, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[Mechamaniac]

As for connections with 7, I still think its a viable theory that Ray could have been a child on the island, and hell, perhaps Basara is directly Shamen blood, Mao was still alive at the end, and would have been well within child bearing years when Basara was born.

Man, that is stretching sooooo much.

You should consider changing your username to Mr. Fantastic

[ewilen]

there's no reason to doubt

I don't think that means what you think it means.

You seem to think that "it can't be proven otherwise" means "it is certainly (or even probably) true".

If so, you are mistaken.

[KingNor]

there's no reason to doubt

I don't think that means what you think it means.

You seem to think that "it can't be proven otherwise" means "it is certainly (or even probably) true".

If so, you are mistaken.

if you go back far enough we all came from fish.

so i dont' get it.

PETER: I hear ya man, it was a simpler, and much neater time. its intresting the way the fans can find a way to hold the macross franchise togeather with hypothesis and analysis, but i liked it better when it was more strait forward.

SDF serise all the way for me

Edited November 3, 2004 by KingNor

[Keith]

As for connections with 7, I still think its a viable theory that Ray could have been a child on the island, and hell, perhaps Basara is directly Shamen blood, Mao was still alive at the end, and would have been well within child bearing years when Basara was born.

Uh, and how is Mylene able to do the song energy stuff then? Or is it supposed to be her Zentradi/Maltrandi blood? And her sister could do it too... I kind of got the impression that ANYONE could use singing that way if they had high spiritia or whatever.

Mylene was never able to keep up with Basara in power. Besides, all life is able to create spiritia (including anima spiritia), it just so happened that Basara was considerably stronger than everyone else.\

I liked Macross a whole lot better when it was just airplanes that could transform into robots that fought giant aliens no bigger than a 3 storey building.

Macross was never just about that. It was more directly about the emotions of one person being able to reach out & touch others to change the tide of war, which it remains to be today.

Edited November 3, 2004 by Keith

[ewilen]

there's no reason to doubt

I don't think that means what you think it means.

You seem to think that "it can't be proven otherwise" means "it is certainly (or even probably) true".

If so, you are mistaken.

if you go back far enough we all came from fish.

This I agree with. But Keith is saying that the Mayans came directly from fish, in a way different from the rest of humanity.

[Ginrai]

Mylene was never able to keep up with Basara in power. Besides, all life is able to create spiritia (including anima spiritia), it just so happened that Basara was considerably stronger than everyone else.

What about Mylene's sister? She was definitely able to 'keep up with Basara'. In fact it was a huge battle to see who could outsing who and it was a very, very close battle. Or are you going to tell us that Max is descended from Mayans too?

This is totally raw speculation and you have zero evidence that Ray or Basara are descended from Mayans. It's not suggested or even implied by either Macross 7 or Macross Zero. The only vauge thread you have is that Ray has dark skin. Basara doesn't even have dark skin, just a high spiritia level.

[Gunbuster]

I still say there's a good chance that Ray is descended from them. But all things considered, with over 90% of the Earth's populated whiped out, Kawamori could have included hobbits & ogers as well & been quite safe As for the power itself, we do see it resurface.

Good point Keith. I can't help it, but I feel that all this is an after thought like the Star Wars series. I wouldn't be surprise if Kawamori release a "Special Edition" Macross DYRL with addtional footage hinting Minmay is somehow related to Mayans.

I mean why is Minmay and the other Basara so special? If it's singing from the heart, there are thousand of singers that do that on Earth, How come the Zentradi didn't get affect by that? I mean come'on there are tons of old broadcast signal flying everywhere in space, they should have heard some of it while scanning the radio waves. I mean if the Zentrdi know that there's a planet with thousands of singers, wouldn't they turn tail and run from it?

I hope that made sense ;;

[Effect]

I still say there's a good chance that Ray is descended from them. But all things considered, with over 90% of the Earth's populated whiped out, Kawamori could have included hobbits & ogers as well & been quite safe As for the power itself, we do see it resurface.

Good point Keith. I can't help it, but I feel that all this is an after thought like the Star Wars series. I wouldn't be surprise if Kawamori release a "Special Edition" Macross DYRL with addtional footage hinting Minmay is somehow related to Mayans.

I mean why is Minmay and the other Basara so special? If it's singing from the heart, there are thousand of singers that do that on Earth, How come the Zentradi didn't get affect by that? I mean come'on there are tons of old broadcast signal flying everywhere in space, they should have heard some of it while scanning the radio waves. I mean if the Zentrdi know that there's a planet with thousands of singers, wouldn't they turn tail and run from it?

I hope that made sense ;;

You know that's really something I've wondered about to be honest.

[treatment]

I still say there's a good chance that Ray is descended from them. But all things considered, with over 90% of the Earth's populated whiped out, Kawamori could have included hobbits & ogers as well & been quite safe As for the power itself, we do see it resurface.

Good point Keith. I can't help it, but I feel that all this is an after thought like the Star Wars series. I wouldn't be surprise if Kawamori release a "Special Edition" Macross DYRL with addtional footage hinting Minmay is somehow related to Mayans.

I mean why is Minmay and the other Basara so special? If it's singing from the heart, there are thousand of singers that do that on Earth, How come the Zentradi didn't get affect by that? I mean come'on there are tons of old broadcast signal flying everywhere in space, they should have heard some of it while scanning the radio waves. I mean if the Zentrdi know that there's a planet with thousands of singers, wouldn't they turn tail and run from it?

I hope that made sense ;;

Minmay's nothing/noone special, actually. She's the only one singing in both DYRL and TV. The Zentraedi's were culture-shocked by not just her singing, but by other micron things such as the minmay-doll, the pairing/non-separation of men and women and stuff. The Zentraedi's (and Meltrandi's in DYRL) behaviour towards music were already apparent in both tv and dyrl as they have forgotten what music was.

I'm not sure about Basara. That one's pulled out of somewhere in left field, imo.

[JValk]

Mitochlorians.

[Panon]

I love Macross 7, but trying to inexplicably tie it into other parts of the Macross world through dubious leaps of logic based on flimsy evidence or where it honestly is never even hinted at, is doing those parts a disservice.

Seriously, not even Kawamori looks at Macross this way and has said as much. Macross has never had a continuity where you can join up all the dots perfectly at it never will.

Different sides of the same coin, and all that.

Macross Zero certainly doesn't make any clear distinctions. You could argue it runs off the proper timeline, or the alternate DYRL one.

We know from the original that the Protoculture visited Earth, and manipulated what would become humanity. It makes perfect sense that they might leave behind a 'defense system' if you will to ensure what they've altered doesn't enter space as a culture of warfare.

As much as I find any DYRL elements creeping into the canon distasteful, at the same time, DYRL's take is viable, where the Protoculture lived on Earth in peace, but fled when the war they had created through the Zentradi/Meltrandi finally reached the Earth system. It also makes sense that they would leave behind a system, given that they faced their own destruction at the hands of one of the creations, that they would leave something behind to ensure that the race their had influenced would not become a race of war, in the event that they could one day return again.

Beyond that, there isn't any real link as such to other parts of the series. I honestly believe there is *no* link to Macross 7 in this show other than the very basic Macross theme, and there isn't meant to be one. Nor is it needed.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I just watched episode 5 again and noticed a few things:

Somebody way back made a point about the afos being a hypocrite for destroying the human race because we are destructive. It was too preachy.

Part of the reason was to stop us from spreading our behaviour across the galaxy and part of it has to do with the fact that because the machine responds to emotions, sara at the time felt she needed to punish the race because it was possessed by demonic behaviour (everyone looked like a kadun to her) Sort of like a purification and cleansing of the people who had known only bad behaviour.

Because the war had gotten out of hand and threatened to consume her own culture (people leaving for the big bad corrupt cities) it was natural for her to be angry as well which resulted in the death beams and killing of both sides.

....But...remember she broke her OWN rules... She gave in to Dr Hasford's bribe and gave blood which her dad said was forbidden. (pay particular attention to the bit where Hasford tells Sara that her Dad asked him to test her) So she has to wear part of the blame. For the Afos to choose NOT to destroy us (in the ancient legend where the bird human cuts it's head off) was a sign of forgiveness for our imperfections. That was the ultimate lesson Sara had to learn. You could say it was preachy but the OVA shows that even the best person with good intentions can fall.

I guess Sara learned that trying to be perfect and follow rules (which she herself failed to do) was never the intention of the legend from the beginning. To me the legend says: "We will fail it's just a matter of time before history repeats". But through love, mankind is forgiven for his failings. And if you pay attention to what Hasford shows in the legend where the bird human had cut its own head off to avoid destroying us, you will see this "forgiveness through love" theme plays out in the ending where shin fullfills the prophecy and rises into the sky to join the Sara. (like a re-enacting ritual to show that the first female who came to earth would regroup with the first male during "the time of the end" and they would be joined together. With shin acting out the ritual or play as an actor playing the role of the first human.)

This just reaffirms my belief that the human race had actually been designed to fail the tests from the beginning to learn forgiveness using love. If people like sara can't relax; imposing rules on everyone that she herself had broken, then the human race will die (but not because god was angry and fear-mongering, but because man himself would drive himself to extinction if he keeps the war going with no sign of forgiveness for each person's sins). Life wouldn't be as interesting or worth living without love. To some it gives them purpose.(unlike the original zentradi who had only known war and destruction)

Edited November 4, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

This I agree with. But Keith is saying that the Mayans came directly from fish, in a way different from the rest of humanity.

Which is why I'm saying the whole "Mayans come from fish" myth is just that, a myth.

[joscasle]

As for connections with 7, I still think its a viable theory that Ray could have been a child on the island, and hell, perhaps Basara is directly Shamen blood, Mao was still alive at the end, and would have been well within child bearing years when Basara was born.

Uh, and how is Mylene able to do the song energy stuff then? Or is it supposed to be her Zentradi/Maltrandi blood? And her sister could do it too... I kind of got the impression that ANYONE could use singing that way if they had high spiritia or whatever.

Mylene was never able to keep up with Basara in power. Besides, all life is able to create spiritia (including anima spiritia), it just so happened that Basara was considerably stronger than everyone else.\

I liked Macross a whole lot better when it was just airplanes that could transform into robots that fought giant aliens no bigger than a 3 storey building.

Macross was never just about that. It was more directly about the emotions of one person being able to reach out & touch others to change the tide of war, which it remains to be today.

Ok, I know Macross is not only mechas, I know the music is very important in Macross, I know the relationships are very important in Macross too.

I think those are the most important topics of the entire Macross Saga.

Macross Zero dons't have any conections (at least too few) with the other Macross series, the music does not have a very important part until the last episode. You never saw the big ship (Macross), you never saw the Macross Island, you never heard about alien races, you never saw a love trioangle. I think this is the first Macross series witout a soundtrack becaouse the entire series only have like 3 songs.

I like Macross Zero , the animation was great, the history was good, good mechas, great sound. But I think this series (ova) dosn't have the same Macross topics as Macross Plus or even Macross 2, I believe Macross 7 isn't Macross at all, just because you have mechas and someone singing isn't Macross.

Please don't begin with the "who has more power?, this or that". First of all Basara was a looser, the entire Macross 7 series was a bad idea, how you will flight a Valkyrie playing a guitar and singing, please...

You have characters like Max Genius, that was a great fighter pilot, how you can compare Basara with Max, or even Isamu.

Conclusions:

Macross Zero was good, but the entire potencial not was developed very good.

Macross 7 socks!!!!!!!!!!

Macross Plus was very Macross in most of the topics.

Macross II, well have his ups and downs

Macross TV and Macross DYRL are MACROSS

[joscasle]

I honestly believe there is *no* link to Macross 7 in this show other than the very basic Macross theme, and there isn't meant to be one. Nor is it needed.

Aha, there isn't a single link, you don't have a jpop music band, you don't have a looser singer that flight Valkyries, etc...

[mikeszekely]

Okay, just watched all five episodes back to back, and I'm going to make a few more points that mostly build on what was in my earlier post.

Okay, first off, the fish story. A lot of what's in the Mayan myths are metaphors to explain what happened 10,000 years ago to generation after generation of people who had no way of understanding it in modern scientific terms. I'm firmly convinced that the whole "the first human was created from fish" was a metaphor for evolution. And the whole part about the birdmen creating the first human from fish is to explain that the Protoculture manipulated the evolution of humankind. It's not meant to say literally that the Mayans are literally a sub-race created from fish anymore than the Mayan islands are literally made from a giant turtle shell (which was another Mayan myth presented in episode one). Now, that's not to say that the Mayans aren't special though... at the very least, the Nome family is. It has to do with the legends, which I'll get back to.

Now, about those birdmen... the birdmen are not actually the Protoculture. At least, not directly. If you pay attention to all the drawings, scultures, statues, etc on Mayan that depict the birdmen, you can see that it's actually AFOS... or maybe more than one AFOS. I've come to the conclusion that not only is AFOS not unique, but that it was probably a fairly common Protoculture mech/vehicle. There was probably a small group of Protoculture in the scientific expedition to earth, and each one probably had an AFOS, which they might have used to spread a virus (the Viral Evolution Theory is also explained in episode one or two). Ultimately, AFOS is a machine. Is it somewhat organic? Yes. There's advantages to that... damage can heal instead of repair, and even a primitive organic brain would be more adaptable than a digital computer. In fact, it also seems to allow for a blood bond between the AFOS and its pilot.

Which brings me back to the legend, and how the Nome family fits in. Remember how Rooy Kanu wanted a wife? And according to legend, the birdman cut off it's head, and from the blood came a woman. I think this is more metaphor. In episode 5, we saw Sara piloting the AFOS... from its head, and floating in some kind of liquid. I think that whole bit about the birdman cutting off it's head was just the way that primitive humans understood what they saw when a real, humanoid Protoculture actually got out of her AFOS. She mated with Rooy Kanu, and her decendants... including the Nome family... would have Protoculture blood and Protoculture DNA in them (the two snakes entwined in the blood... the DNA double helix). The blood in the AFOS was the same as Protoculture, but I think specifically the same as the Rooy Waka and the Nome family bloodline. The particular AFOS in Macross Zero, then, wouldn't just be incapable of being operated by ordinary humans, but probably incapable of being operated by anyone not of that particular family line. Considering how much power AFOS seems to have, it's a logical way of keeping it out of the wrong hands.

The legend says that Rooy Waka left with the other birdmen. Despite the fact that AFOS is apparently fold capable, it seems the Protoculture that came to earth had a mothership, and she left with her friends and their AFOS, leaving just that one behind, entrusted to her decendants. Her decendants had an important job: to wait until mankind developed the capability to travel the galaxy, and then evaluate if they succeded or failed as an experiment at that time. In the event of failure, those decendants... by that time, considered priests or priestesses, were to use AFOS to completely wipe out mankind.

To this end, I want to say that my earlier speculation is dead on. AFOS may have an advanced computer and incredible capabilites, but it is ultimately a mecha or vehicle. It apparently has two modes, a white "safe" mode, and a purple "destructive" mode. AFOS was programmed to ask the pilot who finally reactivated it the two questions, and start up accordingly, but had no way of evaluating the answers and, once started, was operated by Sara, and not autonomous. The first quesion, "Did humans CREATE ships that can cross OCEANS of stars?" Not "can humans get off the planet?" And not "possess the means to cross." The honest answer was no, because humans hadn't created... the technology literally fell into their laps, and I think (but am not sure) that the Macross was the only fold-capable ship in the UN fleet until after Space War 1. I don't think the ARMD or Oberth ships initially had fold generators. And no, I don't think getting into orbit, getting to the moon, getting to Mars, or even setting up regular commercial travel throughout the solar system would have counted... it really seemed to imply interstellar travel.

The second question, "Have humans stopped fighting?" Not, "Are they totally warlike like the Zentraedi? Or are they capabale of love?" Not, "Do they still fight wars" Simply, "Have humans stopped fighting?" The answer is obviously, "No." Love, culture, and generally not being solely focused on war like the Zentraedi doesn't qualify any other answer. Mankind was still fighting amongst itself, and would (and did) take that kind of violence out into space, and that was exactly what the Protoculture were trying to safeguard against. Now again, Sara was piloting AFOS, and AFOS was not acting on its own. Shin snapped Sara out of her insane little funk, and it was Sara that broke off the attack... humankind passed no test, least of all an objective, definative one.

So at the end, Sara allowed the four reaction weapons into AFOS' barrier, to contain the blast and radiation and protect the Mayans, which definately damaged it. You could see the petals around its head were blacked and melted. Afterwards, it folded, and aparently took Sara, Shin, and his VF-0 with her. Whether that was Sara's choice and she had some inkling of what she was doing, or whether that was a programmed response to damage by AFOS, I can't say. And where it went, whether or not there's more than one out there, or more Protoculture out there who are going to be pissed that humans are bringing their weapons out into space, well, that's the mystery. I think it'd certainly make an interesting TV series if a UN Spacy fleet circa the 2060's stumbled across some of those answers...

[mikeszekely]

As the UN colonizes space, will they make the same mistakes the Protoculture did when they were creating their Stellar Republic? (Remember, the Zentraedi weren't created to be frontline grunts in the war between the Stellar Republic and the Supervision Army... they were created to be shock troops when a planet resisted colonization by the Stellar Republic).

Where did you hear that?

PC 2500s

The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]

PC 2700s

Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation).

PC 2800s

Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.

PC 2860

Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.

You pretty much answered where I heard it from yourself. The Protoculture had already begun their first sublight colonization of the galaxy, and where using the Zentradi for "proxy warfare" that "contributes greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence." That is, the Protoculture used the Zentraedi to whip any intelligent life that didn't take kindly to the PC colonizing their planets. It's a good 200 years after the Protoculture start making Zentraedi before the second, faster-than-light colonization begins, and another 100 years before the Stellar Republic is even formed. When civil war finally breaks out, the Protoculture consider themselves too civilized to duke it out themselves, so they have their Zentradi fighting each other instead, but it certainly doesn't seem like they were created with civil war in mind.

[Anubis]

I like what mikeszekely put in depth up there about the AFOS.

Edited November 4, 2004 by Anubis

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Remember how Rooy Kanu wanted a wife? And according to legend, the birdman cut off it's head, and from the blood came a woman. I think this is more metaphor. In episode 5, we saw Sara piloting the AFOS... from its head, and floating in some kind of liquid. I think that whole bit about the birdman cutting off it's head was just the way that primitive humans understood what they saw when a real, humanoid Protoculture actually got out of her AFOS.

Yeah but the scientists had actually observed the neck of the afos and said it was cut off literally. Maybe all types of diseases were introduced as a result of the blood? Kind of like what happens when you introduce new species into another country and upset the balance? All kinds of animals would mutate and the fish would inherit the wings of the bird people to make flying fish? Or perhaps a combination of both: The pilot exited, cut the head off, but her blood was through her offspring when she passed her genes on to new generations after mating with the fishman? (not the blood from the neck itself. But this is confusing since the afos has its own blood as evidenced by the blood pouring out of it which was used to heal Mao. This reminds me of something: Mao has the afos blood pumping in her veins.) The disease the wife had was passed down and some pure bloods could develop thier powers which stemmed from the PC race? (like levitation of rocks, healing through music etc)

I agree with the dna thing and the dna double helix though. I guess as guardian she was traumatised that when she was a kid she gave into the bribe and let the greedy Hasford take her blood sample. When she saw needles she knew that white people were going to steal thier blood and went psycho.

I still think the bird cut its head off out of love. (if not the bird itself, then the female pilot who mated with the fishpeople after falling in love) Hasford says that this bird human was ordered by another bird human thingy to destroy us. (I think it was in ep4) This God has a name but I can't remember what it was.

"The bird human who created the humans on the Mayan Islands. Was ordered to sing the song of destruction by the god of the heavens, Procacha.When the bird human was told to do that, he cut off his own head...tp prevent the song from being sung. But evertime a bond between people and a bond between the people and the earth is broken it's believed that the head and body move closer together and will one day sing the song of destruction.

Sara, you were the one who told me that, remember? You broke that rule o tell me that, Sara.Also you shared the blood of the priestessess even when your father, Ugari, urged you not to."

*cue akira style scream, with floating rocks in place of cracks in walls*

I like to think that the "bond between the people and the earth" has to do with two things:

1) we now have possession of sdf1 to go and rape and pillage other civilisations. The antigravity effect of the floating rocks = the "bond weakening between people (who have wings to explore the heavens) and earth" (ground). In real life you could say this is when man developed planes and flying vehicles to go and attack other isolated cultures which were once protected from advancing civilisations.(whose intent was to control the less advanced ones) The military arm of our civilisation had these ambitious intentions of using this superior tech to take control of other planets through force. Only using military superiority and forcing others to bow down do we ensure total order though and that's why we kind of deserved to be attacked by the zentradi. Our leaders had no intention of just using technology for good purposes.

2) people have forsaken thier sacred duty to thier religions and turned towards city life. (Mao is bored sh1tless on the island as evidenced on by shin's arrival)

"The bond between the people" was just symbolic of our warring with each other from ancient times up till now with better technogy which has become increasingly efficient at doing its job on a mass scale. ie Nukes? Once those islanders worshipped nature and respected the forces of the forest. Now they turned to industry and war. In real life: a lot of our technology comes from what we've learned from machines developed during our wars against each other and this tech has filtered down to our consumer products. Our factories are super efficient, and mass-produced items are kept cheap thanks only to the robots that create them quickly at next to no expense. It's a brave new world where man can turn his back on god. He became god when he could sail heaven without listening to all the warnings, so primitives will eventually think of us as special and we can ignore thier considerations.

We already failed in the ancient days I bet. think about it: Even primitive tribes would fight over things like land and food and stuff. They actually show a bunch of natives with spears fighting in the paintings I think. It was out of love that we were saved not because we were fit to live. And Sara is such a hypocrit. If she didn't fail the test her dad gave her, none of this mess would have happened. Hasford told Sara in ep 5 that her Dad actually ASKED him to test her to see if she would obey his order. She gave into temptation and took the bribe. (a bead necklace) Civilised cultures can bribe primitive cultures with goodies. (we saw this when Aries used the drinks to bribe the natives to give thier blood up for testing)

I guess it's up to mao now to take the guardianship role which her sister failed to do and with her newfound powers she leads her culture back to its primitive ways. Or.. she decides to just live a life in the cities now that the end time prophecy is fullfilled and neither the song of creation or destruction was able to go through. I wish they resolved this better so we know what happens next. One thing I'm wondering is: Are the legends about the female actually real? Will there in fact be a female coming to visit earth to rejoin her husband here? And where is this husband? The female says she will come back during the time of the end which is kind of vague.

Edited November 4, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Keith]

You pretty much answered where I heard it from yourself.  The Protoculture had already begun their first sublight colonization of the galaxy, and where using the Zentradi for "proxy warfare" that "contributes greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence." That is, the Protoculture used the Zentraedi to whip any intelligent life that didn't take kindly to the PC colonizing their planets. It's a good 200 years after the Protoculture start making Zentraedi before the second, faster-than-light colonization begins, and another 100 years before the Stellar Republic is even formed. When civil war finally breaks out, the Protoculture consider themselves too civilized to duke it out themselves, so they have their Zentradi fighting each other instead, but it certainly doesn't seem like they were created with civil war in mind.

What you're forgetting is that the Protoculture "were" the only sentient life out there. That's the reason why they started colonizing planets in the first place. Whether there was or wan't officially a stellar republic is moot, as life across the universe was Protoculture or Protoculture influenced only. You're taking the very broad statement of "expanding their sphere of influene" to mean a very specific thing which isn't even implied. Never is it said that the Protoculture beat down other life forms, nor have any of their known actions implied that intent.

And before you ask, in the same quoted episode I mentioned earlier (Mystery Of The Ruins?) the Protoculture explain their purpose of colonization being because they hadn't found any other sentient life forms in the universe.

PC 2500s

The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.

Note that it's not stated that any one side or faction of Protoculture only had access to the Zentradi, and they may have from the get go have been the decided upon method for "all" war period. Meaning whomever they fought against had to have had Zentradi to fight with too. Combine this with the knowledge that the Zentradi later revolved once the limitations against fighting Protoculture citizens had been removed, then it can safely be assumed that the directive had always been in place prior.

PC 2700s

Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation).

Second space colonization, i.e. life had originally been spread out during the first.

PC 2800s

Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.

Just because it hadn't previously been unified doesn't mean that all colony worlds weren't comprised of life spread out by the Protoculture.

PC 2860

Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.

Of course meaning that despite their attempts to unify themselves, the Protoculture couldn't resolve their conflicts, and the stellar republic fell apart. The Protoculture as described earlier, always had 2 distinct sides/nations seperating the whole. They came together for a while, but it just didn't work. There is no evidence that the Zentradi were ever used to fight anything but other Zentradi prior to the Protodevilin/Supervision Army wars.