MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[peter]

Yeah, I just finished watching it again and I liked it. I don't know why there's so many people angry with it.

The dogfights were incredible, I don't care if they're realistic or not. The whole thing with the thrust-vectoring nozzles was so cool. I wonder why that bit of animation was never addressed in Macross TV series or DYRL, as I'm sure the VF-1 series was cabable of it.....

Another nice touch was the monster...I know, some people are crying about the claws....but aside from that, what was really cool was the cannons firing consecutively, rather tha all at once. Nice sound effects as well.

Anyway, awesome. I hope froating head doesn't end the Macross franchise here....

Edited October 29, 2004 by peter

[JLYC]

Yeah, I just finished watching it again and I liked it. I don't know why there's so many people angry with it.

The dogfights were incredible, I don't care if they're realistic or not. The whole thing with the thrust-vectoring nozzles was so cool. I wonder why that bit of animation was never addressed in Macross TV series or DYRL, as I'm sure the VF-1 series was cabable of it.....

Another nice touch was the monster...I know, some people are crying about the claws....but aside from that, what was really cool was the cannons firing consecutively, rather tha all at once. Nice sound effects as well.

Anyway, awesome. I hope froating head doesn't end the Macross franchise here....

I think in SDF the VF's basically have to use vector thrust to get around since the wing/tail flaps wont work in space. When they have the fast packs on, they probably use the auxillary nozzles to adjust position as shown in DYRL.

So far in Macross, I think the best dog fight scenes all take place in the atmosphere (although the space fight in the beginning of macross + was awesome as well).

[Ido]

Watched yesterday the fansub version... not really happy with this episode, is not for magic or other macross relation, the only thing that I consider wrong is the Roy presence in the show, it looks forced IMO and make part of the story a lot expectable.

Ok, I understand that do a SDF Macross is not easy but the storyline in the end looks banal and boring, we have the old crazy porfessor who want to destroy the world cause he think is wrong, he need a girl to use a sorta of acient monster, the girl is in love with the Hero, looks like the usual Japanese rpg story, a lot like Shadow hearts.

Banal bad guy death: They cause a lot of problem to the heros but they die like idiots at the end, OMG really hate that.

However awesome Shin-Nora battle.

$0.02

Please a new series that answer to where Shin, Sara and maybe Megaroad-02 are gone.

[hevangel2]

Just watched ep.5. 2 minutes into the opening, I decided to dig up ep.4. and watch it again to refresh my memory. Ep 4 and ep 5 don't connect well, the story is kinda rushing trough.

The dog fight in ep.5 is definitely the best, espeically the scene Shin fight with Nora using trust vector. Too bad both Nora and DD died stupidly.

I don't understand, why Nora call Ikonav(spelling?) DD?

Where the name DD come from?

One more thing I don't quite understand is, after the Asuka raise up in the air,

it suppose to go in scamble mode, where all fighters should launch to engage the enemy. How come we still see VF0s staying in the hanger with Mao and those Mayan people.

Actually I kinda like the big claw of the monster.

It looks pretty cool.

Yeah... I have to agree, the end makes no sense at all.

Just like the ending of Evangelion.

Even though I hate Macross 7, but I'm glad that I watched it.

Otherwise I'll have no idea what's going on with all those spirita stuff in M0.

[Radd]

I don't understand the comparions to Evangelion at all? While I was able to figure out the end to Eva, I will admit it that it did require some thought on the part of the audience as they did not take you by the hand and work everything out for you.

The end to Macross Zero on the other hand is very straightforward and simple.

[Backstabber]

After seeing it I personally feel disappointed once the animation is wiped away as it's a repeated(almost tiring) concept by Kawamori with extra "magic" this time. Other than new designs I see no originality in this story. Maybe some of you can help me by pointing out what you saw as original from the other Macross series?

A question that has bothered me with M0 is it seems ok to fight for love but were not supposed to fight because we're supposed to love everyone. Is this not a paradox that can't be solved? Even after Aeris tells Roy the way to save the world is to love he still fights earnestly in SDF:Macross. It makes me feel that new Macross productions are very preachy but don't offer any real solutions.

Well one more: If anger/fear/sadness is a kudon then wasn't Sarah sad and angered when piloting the birdman and therefore a kundon herself? By the birdman destroying the world was it not a kudon as well? It seems very hyprocritical to me that the "protoculture" would pass a judgment of death to all after expecting everyone to love one another. Are they exempt from there own ideals?

[Chuey]

I accept nothing is perfect so I can look past certain shortcomings that I have oberserved while watching this OVA. Overall, I pretty much like the story and the action. However, the one thing that annoyed me involved the ending where Shin flew out of the ocean with the flying fish and supposedly became a "bird man".

[Radd]

Backstabber, the solution is right there for all to see. It takes only the eyes to see it. For more on that topic I reccomend reading 'The Illuminatus! Trilogy', wich offers a very interesting world view based on that idea.

As for originality, well if all you look at is the overreaching themes of Macross, well, then you're absolutely correct in that M0 does not deviate from them. As for the actual story, you can't really claim it's a rehash of any previous Macross story, and to many Macross fans it's enough that Kawamori and company don't rehash the same story endlessly, unlike that other mecha franchise.

Looking at the story, it can basically be broken down to something like this.

Over a small, Pacific island, two factions in a global civil war battle over a mysterious alien object, that has slept silently beneath the sea for thousands to millions of years. The object seems to have outwardly mystical ties to a village of natives living upon the island. As the two forces clash, it becomes more and more apparent that the alien technology that they are trying to claim for their own advantage could destroy them all. Can our heroes discover the secret of the "Bird Human" before it lays waste to the entire world?

Yeah, that sounds identical to the plot of SDF Macross and Macross Plus.

[Radd]

Also, the idea behind the Bird Human destroying the world if they hadn't given up fighting amongst each other seemed to me, and others in this thread, to be more a way of keeping a potentially destructive race from leaving Earth and wreaking even more havoc upon the galaxy, such as the Protoculture's previous creations.

[Backstabber]

As for originality, well if all you look at is the overreaching themes of Macross, well, then you're absolutely correct in that M0 does not deviate from them.

I view it like the valk toys. Same product with a different variation/paintjob! I would like a new product. I also made no mention of "that other" company as I was strictly speaking about Macross. I'll never understand why alot of Macross fans believe they have to hype up Macross and it's staff by comparing it to Robotech and theirs. That's like putting someone else down to make yourself feel better about your own faults.

Over a small, Pacific island, two factions in a global civil war battle over a mysterious alien object, that has slept silently beneath the sea for thousands to millions of years. The object seems to have outwardly mystical ties to a village of natives living upon the island. As the two forces clash, it becomes more and more apparent that the alien technology that they are trying to claim for their own advantage could destroy them all. Can our heroes discover the secret of the "Bird Human" before it lays waste to the entire world?

All paint! EX:

Over a small, test base, two pilots in a battle for new technology and a childhood love for Myung that stems from their past (from thousands to millions of years ago) . A singing AI named Sharon Apple seems to be mysteriously tied to each of them. As the two pilots clash, it becomes more and more apparent that the superiority that they are trying to claim for their own advantage could destroy them all. Can our heroes discover the secret of the AI before it lays waste to them and possibly the entire world?

Call it stretching but to me it's just better looking paint than the last one.

Yeah, that sounds identical to the plot of SDF Macross and Macross Plus

Depends on how you word it I guess but it does to me.

Also, the idea behind the Bird Human destroying the world if they hadn't given up fighting amongst each other seemed to me, and others in this thread, to be more a way of keeping a potentially destructive race from leaving Earth and wreaking even more havoc upon the galaxy, such as the Protoculture's previous creations.

Since the Protoculture are the ones who created those destructive beings including altering the genetic code of humans, wouldn't that make them the most destructive race in the universe. Seems to me in order to follow the themes set by the Macross franchise the creators of such beings would take the time to show them the way to live instead of "love one another or we'll kill you!".

[Wes]

RahXephon anyone?

More like Ikagura, anyone?

Am I the only one who actually got Shin's character development? From what I saw, ever since his family was gunned down by whomever, he's been afraid to trust anyone. He was even relying on violent means to return to "a world that did not shake" as the into goes. Then, throuhout the story everyone is telling him how he needs to open up and use his heart, or whatever that Marine-chick and others were saying. You can see him doing this starting with the fight in ep3 and even more in ep4. It was important how the Bird Human was talking about the "Kaduns of anger and fear" - Nora and DD clearly had alot of anger for whatever reasons and were axed because of it. I think in corallary to what was said before, the part of Protoculture that influenced life on Earth believed these to be the reasons why the Zentraedi and the other nastiness distroyed their civilization, so the Bird Human was left as almost a gate-keeper to prevent such a race from spreading accross the universe, thus repeating their mistakes. You can see that Shin was dominated by fear, because when he nearly got shot down he had an almost panic-attack, remembering how his parents died and other forms of violence that have happened in his life. The reason, then, that he jettisoned all his weapons is symbolic in that he was giving up that fear(aka loosing that baggage) and was willing to trust his life with someone else, Sara. Therefore, he when from being an ansty little teen to being a mature man. (A man should risk his life for a woman once in his lifetime... )

[Agent ONE]

....

Well, considering if Shin hadn't changed the warpath of the AFOS, nobody on Earth would have been alive after that "lesson."

...

I left you speechless... Were you thinking of me naked or something? That leaves most people speechless.

[ewilen]

I fully agree with A1's views

The Red Sox win the World Series, and now this?

Good insights all around, folks.

I agree that, taken by itself, this story isn't really very profound or original--it's just a mix of The Day the Earth Stood Still and Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. But it works well enough as a framework for all the action and Macross-y goodness, with a little bit of a personal story (nice comments, Wes). I would have prefered a little more depth to "Daisy" (I'm guessing that's a mistake in the fansub)--it seems like he goes crazy and attacks the birdman purely out of revenge. I'd rather if he were shocked by Nora's death into realizing that the birdman had to be stopped to save humanity--except that he goes about it the wrong way (with weapons), so he dies. Nora always seemed more crazy and bloodthirsty (though she obviously had her reasons); DD has more of an even keel, regardless of his reasons for being with the anti-UN.

Radd, Illuminatus is one of my favorite novels; however I read it a long time ago. I'm not sure what you're referring to above.

Edit: Changed "destroyed" to "stopped" because it makes more sense that way.

Edited October 29, 2004 by ewilen

[ewilen]

Another comment. Something someone mentioned about Aries's last words--when I read Renato's summary, it sounded like she was just declaring her love for Roy. But while there obviously was something going on between them, and she may have partially meant to tell Roy that she loved him, she was also talking about Love as the antidote to hatred and war--foreshadowing DYRL and the love song that wins the day. This improves the story in a couple ways for me, first by tieing it to later developments in the franchise; second by not making the Aries/Roy relationship into quite as much of a personal love story which impinges on the Claudia/Roy relationship.

[Radd]

I view it like the valk toys. Same product with a different variation/paintjob! I would like a new product. I also made no mention of "that other" company as I was strictly speaking about Macross. I'll never understand why alot of Macross fans believe they have to hype up Macross and it's staff by comparing it to Robotech and theirs. That's like putting someone else down to make yourself feel better about your own faults.

Many Macross fans feel that these main themes are what make Macross Macross. Just as many of Matsumoto's, Shakespeare's, Miyazake's, Wilson's, and many other storywriter's works all tend to contain similar themes. Similar themes, thrown together in different ways. It seems strange to me that one would critisize such a thing, when other franchises are far worse in their lack of originality.

As for "that other franchise", I must say you're far too sensitive. I was talking about Gundam, wich is known for rehashing the same stories over and over again. Right down to the same archetypical characters, different names but similar in looks and repeating the same roles endlessly. Macross brings a new flavour to every offering, for wich many Macross fans are thankful.

All paint! EX:

Over a small, test base, two pilots in a battle for new technology and a childhood love for Myung that stems from their past (from thousands to millions of years ago)  . A singing  AI named Sharon Apple seems to be mysteriously tied to each of them. As the two pilots clash, it becomes more and more apparent that the superiority that they are trying to claim for their own advantage could destroy them all. Can our heroes discover the secret of the AI before it lays waste to them and possibly the entire world?

Call it stretching but to me it's just better looking paint than the last one.

I would call that stretching. I'd honestly be surprised if many people disagreed with me. You might as well call Star Wars and Star Trek the same story with different paint.

Since the Protoculture are the ones who created those destructive beings including altering the genetic code of humans, wouldn't that make them the most destructive race in the universe. Seems to me in order to follow the themes set by the Macross franchise the creators of such beings would take the time to show them the way to live instead of  "love one another or we'll kill you!".

To quote a bit of conversation between the young boy and God, as played by Ralph Richardson, in Time Bandits, "Why is there evil?" "Ah, I think it's something to do with free will."

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

[Agent ONE]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

[Backstabber]

At the time of my post I didn't feel it was what Macross is to me which isn't war machines nor song is the ultimate answer. My reasons for liking Macross is the journey's into the characters personal discovery. Ewilen's post does make it sound that Shin fits this profile and to a point it does. However I still feel this series isn't as strong as the others because it seems that Shin was the only one evolving and in the end he just disappears.

As for "that other franchise", I must say you're far too sensitive. I was talking about Gundam, wich is known for rehashing the same stories over and over again.

My apologies for being too specific but the general idea I was trying to convey remains. If something is great by itself then reasoning "it's better than what others do" shouldn't apply.

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

Who was left other than the Myan's who were already living that lifestyle to show humanity that. Sara , DD, Aeris, the professor, nora and Shin are gone. Roy was the only other one close enough to understand the true story and as I stated earlier he doesn't seem to be spreading the love later in the timeline but more of self-indulgence. Everyone else would probably think they ran the birdman off with the warheads.

In closing I do feel it fits in the Macross franchise quite well but it just doesn't move me the way SDF, DYRL and Plus did.

Edited October 29, 2004 by Backstabber

[akt_m]

oh well, kawamori should have worked more on the plot of ep5. only the dogfight was very good. i hope next macross will be better... (if we will have another)

[Macross_Fanboy]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

[Wes]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

Oh, he probably won't. I think that, with all the posting about the same thing on this thread he's been doing...well you know the type of people who just love the sound of their own voice? AgentOne probably "doornobs" to pictures of his own posts!

[Agent ONE]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

No...

I quote myself:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ndpost&p=137856

[Macross_Fanboy]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

No...

I quote myself:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ndpost&p=137856

But hey, I got a question for you man, if you had a choice, which would you watch? Robotech/Robojunk/Robocrap/Robohack or Macross 7???

I hate Macross II but I'll watch that over Robojunk ANY day.

[the white drew carey]

I liked it and I think it tied things up nicely.

I disliked the very end, with Shin falling and then re-surfacing and flying off while Mao says he is a Bird Human. I hate cryptic endings where it's obviously a cop-out to giving some real closure.

[Radd]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

No...

I quote myself:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ndpost&p=137856

See? This is what I love about Macross. Something different, stuff that appeals in different ways, to different people while conveying similar themes. AgentONE and Keith might be completely at odds over Macross 7, then completely agree on Macross Zero.

Backstabber, it's not so much that I think Macross compares favourably to shows like Gundam, and that's what makes it good. I was using the Gundam example not to bash Gundam, but to provide an example of just what you seemed to be describing, and how Macross as a whole really is different from that. Gundam, also, is but an extreme example of that.

I guess the thing is, I find it very difficult to understand just how you can claim Macross rehashes the same stories, when it so obviously doesn't (the perennial exception being Macross II, wich was DYRL? almost scene for scene). I enjoy strong themes, and don't mind at all seeing the same themes cropping up again and again, especially when they are themes I enjoy. I consider the voyage to be the defining factor of originality, over the message. Not what they say, but how they get to it.

The way I see it, complaining about the themes remaining the same, even if the stories are so varied, is a lot like complaining that every Macross has transforming fighter jets, despite the different types of Valkyries, and the different stories they appear in.

Grok?

Who was left other than the Myan's who were already living that lifestyle to show humanity that. Sara , DD, Aeris, the professor, nora and Shin are gone. Roy was the only other one close enough to understand the true story and as I stated earlier he doesn't seem to be spreading the love later in the timeline but more of self-indulgence. Everyone else would probably think they ran the birdman off with the warheads.

In closing I do feel it fits in the Macross franchise quite well but it just doesn't move me the way SDF, DYRL and Plus did.

I see it this way. Shin showed Sara, and hence the Bird Human, that mankind was capable of stopping the violence. A ray of hope, amidst the storm, so to speak. It helped that Shin and Sara were so attached, otherwise it probably would not have had the same effect.

[azrael]

....

Well, considering if Shin hadn't changed the warpath of the AFOS, nobody on Earth would have been alive after that "lesson."

...

I left you speechless... Were you thinking of me naked or something? That leaves most people speechless.

Please keep your warped thoughts to yourself. I, for one, don't need to know them.

(Actually I was responding to what you and the guy I quoted below you said in that post in 1 easy sentence as opposed to seperate replies)

I see it this way. Shin showed Sara, and hence the Bird Human, that mankind was capable of stopping the violence. A ray of hope, amidst the storm, so to speak.

Yep.

Is Ivanov's first name "Daisy"????

Perhaps....why do you have a problem with that?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Roy was the only other one close enough to understand the true story and as I stated earlier he doesn't seem to be spreading the love later in the timeline but more of self-indulgence. Everyone else would probably think they ran the birdman off with the warheads.

Roy got long hair (and started playing guitar) in the tv series which I think made him look more hippy-ish. He was in fact "spreading the love" if you think about it. (nudge nudge wink wink think of the swinging 60s and "free love" ie sex .)

Think of all the chics he would have banged before he met claudia. His drinking prob can be attributed to the tension of being test pilot who might die since it is a dangerous job. He was always first to use these unproven machines so I gathered the drinking kept him relaxed.)

I guess if it weren't for aids (there are rumours/conspiracy theories this was made in a lab to test on minority groups ie it may have been a bioweapon like sars) people may not have modified thier behaviour.

In the tv series there was also a hint of 70s flares in the pants, huge collars, and sideburns.

Edited October 30, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Agent ONE]

...

Perhaps it's even as AgentONE surmised, and humanity was actually uplifted, as it were, specifically to meet the Zentradi and Meltrandi, and perhaps bring them that vital missing link of compassion, humanity, and culture, to put an end to the destruction.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense... This stuff has been swirling around in my head for days now. I can't believe how briliant the whole thing is. I mean they all fit together so well now. EVERYTHING makes so much sense.

So AgentOne...are you going to stop bashing Macross 7?

No...

I quote myself:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ndpost&p=137856

But hey, I got a question for you man, if you had a choice, which would you watch? Robotech/Robojunk/Robocrap/Robohack or Macross 7???

I hate Macross II but I'll watch that over Robojunk ANY day.

Tough to compare. One is the lamest thing ever created, the other isn't really there, it's like make believe retard play with old stuff.

[Agent ONE]

...

See? This is what I love about Macross. Something different, stuff that appeals in different ways, to different people while conveying similar themes. AgentONE and Keith might be completely at odds over Macross 7, then completely agree on Macross Zero.

..

I'll give Keith more credit than that. He and I agree on probably 90% of his positions on Macross stuff. But yeah.

[peter]

I just watched them all back to back and in the end, just as i said before, I'm happy with the whole thing. It was too bad that it only went for 5 episodes. I would have liked more.

I don't know how Macross 7, Robotech and Macross II got dragged into this conversation, but it's kind of funny what responses those names elicit. A list of Macross related video, starting at the top with what I liked most:

1. Maross DYRL (For the much improved animation over the TV series and the cooler Valks...I'm a sucker for the VF-1 series).

2. Macross Zero (for the awesome animation)

3. Macross Plus (should really be tied with #2)

4. Macross tv series (used to be #2 till I saw Plus and Zero)

5. Macross II (wasn't all that bad..way better than #6)

6. Macross 7 (really doesn't belong on this list at all, but even still, light years better than item # 7)

7. Robocrap (actually, not bad at all when watched with the volume muted...in which case bumps ahead of #6....Macross 7...blech!)

8. Macross Trash (never saw it)

[Onimusha-shin]

on the show alone...

Shin and Fokker looked gay when Fokker placed his hand on Shin's shoulder at the start of the show when they were headed back to ASKA.

as for the AFOS calling out for its head, why doesn't anyone blame Mao for touching it in the 1st place? it seems that she was the one who triggered it. (earlier if you count Ep3 when she and Shin dived into the ocean)

ANBU's translation of the words describing the Anti-UN's sub flying was quite amusing. 'The ship is currently flying!'

as for the dogfights, well, it IS cool but as a mecha fan as well, i'd've like to see more Battroid or Gerwalk action, which was rather minimal compared to the booster-flying shown. more like a Top Gun dogfight other than the few non-Fighter mode action scences. also, too fast paced for the eye to follow accurately and properly appreciate at times. oh, i believe someone mentioned about the thrust-vectoring effect not seen in Macross for the VF-1s but i believe that the cool way that Shin and Nora maneuvered their planes is partially because of the atmospheric effects that is absent in space.

and doesn't anyone think it's weird Nora didn't follow up her shot on Shin's 0A head when Shin was 1st trying to save Sara from the sub?

and MAN, Sara really has some issues. just because her loved one is dead, she will sing the song of destruction? like someone mentioned, this is like a Kadun (of vengeance?)

Nora's death? hrmmm... i would have thought that she's better than that to lose awareness of her surroundings, especially something as HUGE as the Bird Human. Ivanov's (Dick Daisy anyone? probably Nora's nickname to Ivanov on the bed) death was just as silly because the way he seeked revenge for Nora was childish as a tantrum and ultimately, he got spanked bad!

Mao's appearance in Shin's cockpit? totally ridiculous, haha. and they had so much time to chat and all. while the battle raged.

as for the Monster, well, i truly believe the claws didn't really serve a grappling purpose, thought it LOOKED like it did. plainly because when the shots were fired, the arms didn't budge much at all. plus the fact that they shot consecutively instead of simultaneously mean that recoil was spread out so i really don't see the point of the claws.

as for Aries declaring her love to Roy, i also believe that her intepretation of the solution for avoiding the end of the world was that love should be spread and declared out. after all, it was Sara's love for Shin that drove her to revive the Bird Human and stop when she saw Shin was still alive.

the cruising of Shin's 0A after the Bird Human disappeared was interesting. couldn't really understand how it was floating like that other than maybe spiritia aiding it? but the 0A's sudden drop into the ocean got a chuckle out of me, hehehe. as for Mao calling Shin a Bird Human, maybe someone forgot the story told by the old village man about the Bird Human and the Fish Human. i believe that Mao called Shin "a Bird Human afterall" is because he still rose out of the ocean after plunging into it , proving that he's suited for the skies and not the ground.

well, didn't really get the ending and all. sad show, many unneccessary deaths (Sara, Aries, busty Nora, could-have-be-awesome-villian Dick Daisy... oops, i meant Ivanov) and the way the Bird Human, Sara and even Shin disappeared into the sky/space/hyperspace.

too many things to consider and intepret so i'm going to leave that to you guys, hahaha.

feel free to blast me. i'm a n00b about Macross stuff. very superficial fan, hehehe.

[Keith]

What you have to understand about Sara, is that from a very young age, she was taught that those would be the results should that series of events occur. She was obligated to serve the role of destroyer. Thinking Shin was dead just triggered the necessary final emotioanl response to set things in motion. She was already on the fence before that with Mao being hurt & the island being scortched.

It's not so much that she herself was a Kadun, but a biological safeguard against such Kadun. Unlike the rest of humanity that was evolved from simian life, the Mayan islanders were evolved from Fish. Their sole purpose obviously being to judge the rest. I also don't believe Mao triggered anything, as Sara had just as much of a connection with the head (if not more so). Her singing was resonating through it, and she became jealous when seeing Shin & Mao together through it's eye.

Considering we do have all of that mystery regarding the center of the Galaxy, missing Megaroad-01, & now dissapearance of Sara & Shin, perhaps that will be the focus of the next Macross story. A final test. Now that they've been allowed to leave the Earth, they'll be tested again at the center of the Galaxy by Sara or the Protoculture, or whomever waits.

I just wonder where the Ginga Kujira fit in... Perhaps another test. Coming across more human life & teaching them about love too.

Edited October 30, 2004 by Keith

[Backstabber]

The way I see it, complaining about the themes remaining the same, even if the stories are so varied, is a lot like complaining that every Macross has transforming fighter jets, despite the different types of Valkyries, and the different stories they appear in.

Actually you made my point here as well but on the oposite side of the coin. Why does it have to be transforming jets in every series. This is the repetitiveness I speak of. I would like to see Macross take on a completely new role mecha and character wise. Often fans have remarked the mecha was a backdrop to the real story so why does the same backdrop have to be there. Then again this is Macross's moneymaker and I can watch a different anime for that I guess. I'm not saying I hated it all.. just don't feel as amazed as I used to be with Macross.

I see it this way. Shin showed Sara, and hence the Bird Human, that mankind was capable of stopping the violence. A ray of hope, amidst the storm, so to speak. It helped that Shin and Sara were so attached, otherwise it probably would not have had the same effect.

There will always be those we love and those we don't because we don't know them therefore there's always going to be hope and destruction. To me that makes the whole "gatekeeper" thing moot if that's all it was looking for. Anyway before someone screams "it's just anime" at me, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me and don't want you to think I'm just here to gripe so I'll continue to read here for other views as well. Thanks.

Edited October 30, 2004 by Backstabber

[azrael]

Unlike the rest of humanity that was evolved from simian life, the Mayan islanders were evolved from Fish.

Or so as their myth says....

Their sole purpose obviously being to judge the rest.

Actually, I think that honor fell solely on the Nome family.

I also don't believe Mao triggered anything, as Sara had just as much of a connection with the head (if not more so). Her singing was resonating through it, and she became jealous when seeing Shin & Mao together through it's eye.

Mao would have been next in line should Sara have died before AFOS was awakened. Mao would have been able to trigger it if something dramatic happened. But Mao was incapacitated and the turn of events favored Sara. But the sequence of events, if you could call it that, probably began when Sara met Dr. Hasford when Sara was younger.

[Keith]

I found it interesting that Mao seemed to have taken over immediately after Sara was gone (as she sang to Shin). Yet another reason why I think she's Basara's mother .

[Agent ONE]

Unlike the rest of humanity that was evolved from simian life, the Mayan islanders were evolved from Fish.

Or so as their myth says....

...

I actually thought the Mayan people were decendants of fish AS WELL AS the rest of humanity.