MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[RichterX]

Just so you know, I eat an M7 fan every morning for breakfast.

So that is why I haven't seen that many M7 fans around...

I can say you wil never get me!

[valk1j]

Just so you know, I eat an M7 fan every morning for breakfast.

So that is why I haven't seen that many M7 fans around...

Hey I don't remember seeing an M7 fan on that caloric intake graph you posted in another thread awhile back.

You must have one upset stomach after that meal.

Welcome aboard linxCrossq.

[ewilen]

Trying to explain myself a little better about the discrepancies between SDF M and MZero, as contrasted with DYRL/MZero.

Recall that in DYRL Roy's relationship with Claudia is basically sketched in two scenes: the one in the club where he shows Hikaru how to "be a man", and the one where Claudia asks how Roy died. Most viewers would probably say that Claudia loved Roy, and even that Roy loved Claudia, but there isn't much to show us the depth of their feeling or commitment.

In SDF Macross, Claudia's account in "A Rainy Night" more clearly portrays a deeper love, and it has significance in the overall story, because it relates directly to the Misa/Hikaru romance, which is central. Furthermore, there's a point later in the series when Hikaru leaves on a mission, and it's deliberately juxtaposed with the events of "Pine Salad". (IIRC, Misa makes him a meal before he takes off.) So the way that Roy dies and leaves his woman grieving adds dimension to the danger that Hikaru faces whenever he goes out on a mission. The Roy/Claudia love story is an important part of the story structure in SDF M. The Roy/Aries relationship in MZero weakens that element of SDF M.

Again, this isn't to say that you can't come up with a way of factually reconciling the Roy of M0 and the Roy of SDF M. But it makes the story worse. It's similar to (although not nearly as bad as) The Fly II, which kills Geena Davis in the opening. Sure it could happen, but it craps all over the meaning of The Fly. Or to give another example, the opening of Aliens 3. Perfectly plausible that the little girl dies, but it destroys a major part of what I found appealing in Aliens.

Since the Roy/Claudia relationship plays a much smaller part in the narrative and meaning of DYRL, you don't run into the sort of thematic conflict if you link M0 and DYRL that you do by linking M0 and SDF Macross.

Edited October 29, 2004 by ewilen

[LinxCrossq]

Just so you know, I eat an M7 fan every morning for breakfast.

Scary...

That won't stop me from singing Fire Bomber's song in the shower though!

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm watching Macross Zero again and wow, it makes a lot of more sense now, specially that birdhuman and fishhuman myth. Also, I just realize that Sara, Mao (and the wind clan I guess) must be direct descendents of the protoculture! Well, maybe that was a little obvious but anyway.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

any pic of D.D´s death?

Ask and you shall receive

[HG Blows]

Man I'm a little late but...BOOOO! BOOOOO! FOR SHAME! I can't say I wasnt surprised with how it ended though. Macross and anime in general tend to end stuff in the middle of nowhere.

[RichterX]

We want Nora's death now

It was cool how her fighter start falling apart then her flight suit, it would have been nice a little more of detail there...

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Nora's death...

[Keiichi]

Here ya go

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Call that timing

What a sequence!!!

[RichterX]

I would have like to see her like meting away instead of getting killed by the explosion of the fighter

[azrael]

Humanity tested itself in Macross Plus by almost making the same mistakes the Protoculture did. Think about it... Humans were going to created automated AI systems that would kill without thought.... Just like the Zjentohlauedy, just like the Meltohlauedy and just like the Protodevlin.

Good point. However, given the scope of what Macross Plus was originally (Remember, it wasn't suppose to be part of Macross originally) I won't read into M+ that much. But then again, I don't see AFOS really testing humanity as much as I see it teaching humanity it's final lesson.

You gotta take into account that it was just Claudia's version of the story between Roy and her in SDF-TV. Roy's never-told-version will most likely be different.

In addition, Claudia doesn't really give us dates. We are working off visual cues in the scene. In the original SDFM, the ranks of UN were wearing those funny uniforms, yet when we go to M0, Roy, Shin, Edgar, and all those pilots were wearing flight suits from our time.

[The Shade]

I'm still trying to decide whether I liked it or not. It's just too tough. Maybe I just need to think about it some more, or just that the 2 year production time created a sense of unrealistic expectation.

Azrael, where did you hear that M+ wasn't supposed to be part of Macross originally?

After watching it, it's very clear why the UN chose to keep the events secret for at least 50 years:

-don't want to world's population to know that they were willing to destroy an entire island to keep advanced technology out of enemy hands.

-after the events of SDF-M, they are probably thinking that there are similar devices on other sub-protoculture worlds.

[azrael]

Azrael, where did you hear that M+ wasn't supposed to be part of Macross originally?

Various spots. Can't remember where. I think Egan mentioned it once at a con, it was mentioned in a book, but I can't recall. The concept of M+ itself wasn't suppose to be part of the Macross franchise (this was in the planning stages of M+ ; pre-pre-pre-pre-production so it wasn't a last minute thing). The story concept, IIRC, was the same, 2 pilots, a girl, 2 prototype fighters, etc, etc, etc. Then Kawamori changed his mind (probably since it was the 10th anniversary of Macross) and made it part of the Macross franchise.

[striderhiryu]

ivanofs death is just as gruesome as the deaths of those whom he killed, still i feel sorry for nora, i think that she lost her parents in the war and got raped or tortured as well, she wasn´t evil, she was just filled with anger.

the only pilots who will always dye are those who are cooler than the main characters or those who lacks the ability.

after watching so many gruesome deaths in many films and seeing how war only means suffering i will never support war nor will i ever join any military institution. today´s wars are not fought with honor nor for glory, only for politics and interests.

shame on those who kill people no matter what.

[Dies Irae]

ivanofs death is just as gruesome as the deaths of those whom he killed, still i feel sorry for nora, i think that she lost her parents in the war and got raped or tortured as well, she wasn´t evil, she was just filled with anger.

the only pilots who will always dye are those who are cooler than the main characters or those who lacks the ability.

after watching so many gruesome deaths in many films and seeing how war only means suffering i will never support war nor will i ever join any military institution. today´s wars are not fought with honor nor for glory, only for politics and interests.

shame on those who kill people no matter what.

Ivanov beats Kakizaki and Guld for worst Macross death.

Edited October 29, 2004 by Dies Irae

[AlphaHX]

the only pilots who will always dye are those who are cooler than the main characters or those who lacks the ability.

imo, i thought isamu was cooler and a better pilot than guld.

[UN Spacy]

D.D's death was pretty grusome but it happened rather quickly, there wasn't that much emotional impact (unlike Guld's death in the M+ movie).

[Agent ONE]

Humanity tested itself in Macross Plus by almost making the same mistakes the Protoculture did. Think about it... Humans were going to created automated AI systems that would kill without thought.... Just like the Zjentohlauedy, just like the Meltohlauedy and just like the Protodevlin.

Good point. However, given the scope of what Macross Plus was originally (Remember, it wasn't suppose to be part of Macross originally) I won't read into M+ that much. But then again, I don't see AFOS really testing humanity as much as I see it teaching humanity it's final lesson.

....

Well, considering if Shin hadn't changed the warpath of the AFOS, nobody on Earth would have been alive after that "lesson."

[DARTHTODD]

Once again, loved the mecha and artistic design..........the rest was poo.

Turning a plane into a flying fish....amazing. I can't wait till Shoji turns a destroid into a magical hamster in the next Macross series.

[striderhiryu]

quote: Ivanov beats Kakizaki and Guld for worst Macross death.

i didn´t see kakizaki´s death in DYRL with the gory detail like guld and D.D´s death. still being in the receiving end of that shoot must really sting.

poor nora.........

[buddhafabio]

quote: Ivanov beats Kakizaki and Guld for worst Macross death.

i didn´t see kakizaki´s death in DYRL with the gory detail like guld and D.D´s death. still being in the receiving end of that shoot must really sting.

poor nora.........

Kakizaki death in dyrl was not much differant than sdf macross or in robotech you did not miss much noras death was more a tragedy

[TheLoneWolf]

Just finished watching episode 5, very dissapointed. I wasn't even this dissapointed the first time I watched Macross II. First off, let's start with the good.

• Great cgi mecha battles!
  And, that's about it. Now, the bad.
  
• Way too preachy. I guess no one told Kawamori that the cardinal rule of film making is never preach to the audience, especially as blatently as he does in episode 5. To make matters worse, it's the same unoriginal maxim that we've heard before. Nothing original. Speaking of original...
  
• The dialogue, it's a standard b-grade movie script. Who wrote the dialogue anyways, George Lucas?
  
• D.D. and Nora: they start out the series as cookie-cutter villians and die as cookie-cutter villains. These two, especially Nora, had the potential to become complex and compelling antagonists.
  
• There are several moments that defy logic, like Shin falling for 10 minutes and never hitting the water. Or, unprotected characters who able to stand, speak, and breathe without the slightest of difficulty, despite being thousands of feet in the air. But since this is an anime, I can write these off as "anime magic" rather than bad writing.
  

I won't factor the fantastic or magical events in to my review. This is the Macross world and, apparently, anything is possible. Overall, I'll give the Macross Zero OAV two out of four stars. I'm not critiquing this OAV on how well it ties in to SDF Macross or how awesome the fight scenes are, just Kawamori's ability to put out a well-rounded and sophisticated story.

[Dangard Ace]

...A1's comments pretty much nailed it. Protoculture left AFOS as the final lesson. Protoculture made its mistakes when it created the Zentradi/Meltrandi, and eventually the beings that would become the Protodevlin. The "lesson" from AFOS could be what was suppose to have been passed on the the Zentradi and later, the Protodevlin. But since Protoculture was being wiped out, they couldn't teach that lesson to their creations, so that responsiblity fell on humanity's shoulders.  If you look at it this way, Zero does an excellent job of bridging SDFM/DYRL? and 7 together (Plus is the oddball, considering it doesn't add to the Macross story). It would be humanity's responsibility to "correct the mistakes" of Protoculture (i.e. the Zentradi and Protodevlin).

...

I think you and I are the only ones that get it. The genius of Zero really blows me away though.

Just watched the final episode and read through all 12 bloody pages and I'm with AgentOne on this. From the planes, to the fights, to the APHOS, to the handling of music/song, to the way the story ends. This was one awesome series!

So in my Macross ranking:

SDF:TV

M:Zero

M:Plus

M:2

M:7

[LinxCrossq]

Agree, Macross Zero was really good after I watched the whole thing again.

I can't believie Dangard Ace just put Macross 2 over Macross 7....

[Dangard Ace]

Agree, Macross Zero was really good after I watched the whole thing again.

I can't believie Dangard Ace just put Macross 2 over Macross 7....

That's right baybee!

I liked the MILITARY mechs in 7 and........um.......yeah. (I've watched it three full times, TV/OVA/Movies so I know what it's about.)

I'll let A1 speak for me on the rest of M7. :P Let's just leave it at that so as not to derail this thread.

[RichterX]

Agree, Macross Zero was really good after I watched the whole thing again.

I can't believie Dangard Ace just put Macross 2 over Macross 7....

That's right baybee!

I liked the MILITARY mechs in 7 and........um.......yeah. (I've watched it three full times, TV/OVA/Movies so I know what it's about.)

I'll let A1 speak for me on the rest of M7. :P Let's just leave it at that so as not to derail this thread.

oh no... not again...

[Dangard Ace]

Talk about Macross Zero Eps. 5, NOT what my personal ranking of the macross series is. If it starts to de-rail this thread I will delete/edit all the posts that go off topic because of my post.

M0: I also like that Shin managed to catch Nora off guard a few times and ALMOST nail her. Remember that he was a emotionless badass in an F-15 in eps.1. and given abit more time I'd say he'd be a pretty good VF pilot too. Now he's just a birdman flying around with Sara. Not a bad way to go.

[ewilen]

The concept of M+ itself wasn't suppose to be part of the Macross franchise (this was in the planning stages of M+ ; pre-pre-pre-pre-production so it wasn't a last minute thing). The story concept, IIRC, was the same, 2 pilots, a girl, 2 prototype fighters, etc, etc, etc. Then Kawamori changed his mind (probably since it was the 10th anniversary of Macross) and made it part of the Macross franchise.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Kawamori put the story into the Macross universe in order to get financial backing. Otherwise, it might not have been made.

[azrael]

I'm pretty sure I've read that Kawamori put the story into the Macross universe in order to get financial backing. Otherwise, it might not have been made.

That's probably what the reason behind it becoming part of the fanchise (can't recall off hand). Anyways....

M0: I also like that Shin managed to catch Nora off guard a few times and ALMOST nail her. Remember that he was a emotionless badass in an F-15 in eps.1. ...

It was an F-14.......

Well, considering if Shin hadn't changed the warpath of the AFOS, nobody on Earth would have been alive after that "lesson."

Now he's just a birdman flying around with Sara. Not a bad way to go.

Well as Chief Nakajima said, it''s love.

[Keith]

Going back to the Roy/Aries/Claudia thing, I think of it this way. He most likely met Aries first in school, and seperated when he didn't show up at the airport as she went out for research. Met Claudia during her first assignment, was intrigued that she didn't fawn over him, but moved on when they were stationed elsewhere.

Go ahead a few years, & Roy & Claudia meet again while he was test piloting the VF-1-X, felt comfortable enough with her to confide his fears, but they still didn't "click" yet. Then Roy meet's Aries again, rekindles his feelings, and her death makes him re-evaluate his womanising ways. Then with both being stationed at South Atalia, he's finally in a state of mind to settle down & dedicate himself to one woman, i.e. Claudia. If anything, I think the events in Zero solidify Roy & Claudia's relationship. It also closely enough follow's Claudia's timeline of events (i.e. that they didn't get together for good after the phone call, but later when she was stationed on the Macross).

I fully agree with A1's views about Zero & Plus, perhaps Kawamori felt that it (Plus) was too much of a sidestory, and used Zero as an opportunity to remedy that. I just hope the AFOS ties in with whatever the next story will be, perhaps something a little longer (though if it had to be a movie, I'd still be happy). I don't see how you can still dislike 7 after this though, as Zero more than solidifies any doubtful ties between the themes of the original series & 7.

BTW, here's a present for Keith...

QUOTE (Dr. Hasford @ 00:02:07)

A song is not just a vibration in the air. A true song transcends time and space and makes all souls tremble.

Ahem..."BOMBA!"

[Renato]

Azrael, where did you hear that M+ wasn't supposed to be part of Macross originally?

Various spots. Can't remember where. I think Egan mentioned it once at a con, it was mentioned in a book, but I can't recall. The concept of M+ itself wasn't suppose to be part of the Macross franchise (this was in the planning stages of M+ ; pre-pre-pre-pre-production so it wasn't a last minute thing). The story concept, IIRC, was the same, 2 pilots, a girl, 2 prototype fighters, etc, etc, etc. Then Kawamori changed his mind (probably since it was the 10th anniversary of Macross) and made it part of the Macross franchise.

MacPlus was originally part of the "Advanced Valkyrie" project.

And if anything made Kawamori change his mind, it must have been Macross II.

[RichterX]

um...

lets check this Roy and Claudia first meet during the Unifaction wars in a base, after chasing her everyday with present he was transfered (according to Claudia talking to Misa) to South Ataria (Macross). She says that by that time the Unification was was over also says that for a year he did not wrote any letter (Animeigo subtitles) until they meet again in South Ataria when she was transfered

I guess Zero happens in that period after his first meeting with Claudia and his meeting with her in South Ataria

About the uniform and technology thing, I think Macross is suffering of the Star Trek syndrome, like the first warp ship build by Cochrane in First Contact looks a lot more advanced than the Enterprise of Kirk

another thing about original Macross...

a lot of problems would have been solved if they had mobile phones and internet...

[peter]

Is Ivanov's first name "Daisy"????

[Anubis]

Just saw it, that was great. Way better then I thought it would be. Good dogfighting. The protoculture make some crazy weapons. That thing was pretty wicked.

I liked the forshadowing too, Hasford knew this was the beginning of the end watching the bird human and the dogfight outside. The Earth would be scorched, and a new one would rise from the ashes.

Signal leads Zentraedi here, they glass the planet, and then we rebuild together after ending the fighting.

Doesn't tie up all the loose ends, but you know enough to get by without feeling like you've missed something. Mao's interfacing with the bird human is easily explained with the transfusion she had, along with her lineage that they pointed to earlier. Over the 5 episodes you get enough info to see what's going on, and I think they did a good job in the end. No VF-1's, but they made good VF-0 usage at least in the end, and we got a Monster (damn that thing can lock itself down securely).

Now to watch all 5 back to back (when I can ). I'm sure the slower Ep. 2 and 4 won't seem so slow when put together.

Leagues superior to the last Macross OVA that was made (Dynamite ), so I'm happy with this one. My only complaint for this OVA is the animation inconsistency (which ep. 5 seemed to stay consistent thankfully). I have a sinking feeling this is the last new Macross for a good while though, so in that there is a hint of sadness now that M0 is over.

I would still like to know how the SV-51's were supposed to land on that sub though, especially now that they showed the launch clearly.

Edited October 29, 2004 by Anubis