MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Renato]

Again, I have to ask the question. Why is it so much easier to believe an A.I. can exist that can decide to use holograms & influence over brain chemestry to hypnotize the masses & perform elaborate light shows (that themselves appear magical) to be practical.

Because we already know that pleasing images, and images not-so-pleasing, have a noticable effect on the brainwaves and other biological signs of people. We also know that music that is pleasing to the ear can also affect brainwaves, not to mention the mood of the listener. We also know that hypnotism, while not "scientific" in nature, can and does work and its primary medium is sound.

While its application in Macross Plus is definitily the realm of science fiction, it's not too much of leap of imagination to see something like that happening in the real world.

Blah-blah.

This argument appeared to disprove Spiritia as magic and prove Sharon's music as non-magic.

Remember that spiritia and song energy were also scientifically explained in the show (M7).

A tiny Mao in Shin's cockpit is just way out there, though.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Renato

[USCOLMRNE]

I loved the ending, I just wish it had a few more minutes of footage that explained more about about what was going on. this episode had me on the edge of my seat, especialy when the destroyer came out, it scared the hell out of me. powerfull scene. I believe that all of Macross has some sort of magic in it, episode 4 had a little tooo much magic but i am not complaining, i am just thankfull there is a macross ova rather than nothing.

only thing i a mini mao talking to shin, at one point it reminded me of obi-wan talking to luke during the death star run lol.

Edited October 25, 2004 by USCOLMRNE

[USCOLMRNE]

random screen captures

[USCOLMRNE]

in my opinion this was the best vf-0 cgi scene

[ewilen]

Again, I have to ask the question. Why is it so much easier to believe an A.I. can exist that can decide to use holograms & influence over brain chemestry to hypnotize the masses & perform elaborate light shows (that themselves appear magical) to be practical.

Because we already know that pleasing images, and images not-so-pleasing, have a noticable effect on the brainwaves and other biological signs of people. We also know that music that is pleasing to the ear can also affect brainwaves, not to mention the mood of the listener. We also know that hypnotism, while not "scientific" in nature, can and does work and its primary medium is sound.

While its application in Macross Plus is definitily the realm of science fiction, it's not too much of leap of imagination to see something like that happening in the real world.

Blah-blah.

This argument appeared to disprove Spiritia as magic and prove Sharon's music as non-magic.

Remember that spiritia and song energy were also scientifically explained in the show (M7).

This is something I think we touched on in a thread about "magic" in Macross a while back.

Spiritia in M7 isn't really explained scientifically--Dr. Chiba just shows us some graphs, tells us it's scientific, and later builds some machinery that somehow focuses "sound energy". It might as well be ectoplasm from Ghostbusters, or chi, or The Force. Whatever rules govern it are completely unmoored from real science.

Hypnotism (suggestion/manipulation of perceptions), holography, and artificial intelligence all have a basis in current scientific knowledge. At the present time, some people can be incapacitated by a pattern of flashing lights. I don't know why we need to be sidetracked by "if machines can do it, so can biological" creatures. Of course they can. It isn't what is doing it--it's how they do it. M+ is comprehensible without appeals to magic; like SDF Macross, the only major leap of faith is the hyperspace fold--but that has a strong tradition in SF, and it's even touched on in serious science discussions from time to time.

M0 shows us stuff that looks like magic, but even more than M7, it invites us to interpret it as "psychic powers" or supertechnology relying on principles that are either unknown or at the extreme edge of scientific speculation. In this respect M0 continues the trend introduced by M7--a break from the world as presented in SDF/DYRL/M+, all of which could be interpreted by the audience as hard SF (or close to it).

[ewilen]

For reference: Magic and Technology in Macross thread.

[Roy Focker]

A brief comment from me on "Magic" in Macross Plus. Yes we can explain that Sharon was in control through mass hypnosis but there are also "magical" themes around it.

Sharon's was like the mythological harpies (hope I got the right creature's name). I believe as the myth goes the harpies sing and sailors jump into the sea to drown. Like the harpies Sharon was leading Isamu to his death and Myung broke Sharon's song/spell with a song/spell of her own.

Not saying it was all magic or science but there was a magical/mythological feel to it.

PS: I'm waiting for the fansubs.

[ewilen]

Roy: Do you like gladiator movies, Shin?

<pause>

Roy: Have you ever seen Yukikaze, Shin?

[ewilen]

Shin: Klaatu barata nikto!

[VF-1Guy]

Can someone explain to me how to use Bittorrent and where to find subs of the episodes? I'd like to see what everyone is talking about and maybe convince myself to get the VF-0 when it comes out.

[ewilen]

Look in my signature.

[treatment]

I didn't get the raw since my r2 is being delivered today. Prolly already at my house, but from what I read here so far, here are my thoughts:

[*] It's been quite established in the last four episodes that Mao and Sara are special and both have some mystical powers (more pronounced with Sara), and that they are most likely direct descendants of the Protoculture.

[*] Flying Ships == early OverTechnology manifestation. Recall Aries' assistant in one of the earlier ep discussing the Protoculture theory with her, i.e. flying, etc, etc. So it, too, was established already and should not have been a surprise in ep-5.

The key here, again as I'd stated before in one of the earlier Zero-threads, is that the mysticism-part of Zero is far more believable and culturally traditional than any of the "magic" in M7.

Macross-Plus has hynoptism, rather than "magic" or "mysticism". We all know (or should know) about real-world medical technologies like CATSCANs and medical-studies regarding visuals and audio usage with brain-catscans and stuff to manipulate behavior. (watch more Discovery/Discovery-Health or something). Hence, the mind-manipulation stuff in M+ are quite more realistic and is not magic. The presentation maybe somewhat magical for some of you, but it just ain't magic.

I mean, why do you think beer-commercials almost always have sexy girls and stuff?

---

I'm expecting Anbu and NLA will do a kickass job of translating this ep-5 once they get their copies. Hopefully, Infusion will rise from their sleep and also translate it.

Edited October 25, 2004 by treatment

[Aegis!]

Again, I have to ask the question. Why is it so much easier to believe an A.I. can exist that can decide to use holograms & influence over brain chemestry to hypnotize the masses & perform elaborate light shows (that themselves appear magical) to be practical.

Because we already know that pleasing images, and images not-so-pleasing, have a noticable effect on the brainwaves and other biological signs of people. We also know that music that is pleasing to the ear can also affect brainwaves, not to mention the mood of the listener. We also know that hypnotism, while not "scientific" in nature, can and does work and its primary medium is sound.

While its application in Macross Plus is definitily the realm of science fiction, it's not too much of leap of imagination to see something like that happening in the real world.

Blah-blah.

This argument appeared to disprove Spiritia as magic and prove Sharon's music as non-magic.

Remember that spiritia and song energy were also scientifically explained in the show (M7).

This is something I think we touched on in a thread about "magic" in Macross a while back.

Spiritia in M7 isn't really explained scientifically--Dr. Chiba just shows us some graphs, tells us it's scientific, and later builds some machinery that somehow focuses "sound energy". It might as well be ectoplasm from Ghostbusters, or chi, or The Force. Whatever rules govern it are completely unmoored from real science.

Hypnotism (suggestion/manipulation of perceptions), holography, and artificial intelligence all have a basis in current scientific knowledge. At the present time, some people can be incapacitated by a pattern of flashing lights. I don't know why we need to be sidetracked by "if machines can do it, so can biological" creatures. Of course they can. It isn't what is doing it--it's how they do it. M+ is comprehensible without appeals to magic; like SDF Macross, the only major leap of faith is the hyperspace fold--but that has a strong tradition in SF, and it's even touched on in serious science discussions from time to time.

M0 shows us stuff that looks like magic, but even more than M7, it invites us to interpret it as "psychic powers" or supertechnology relying on principles that are either unknown or at the extreme edge of scientific speculation. In this respect M0 continues the trend introduced by M7--a break from the world as presented in SDF/DYRL/M+, all of which could be interpreted by the audience as hard SF (or close to it).

I too am a hardcore M+ fan but even considering that I´ll have to recognize that there´re magic elements within M+ , for instance , how the heck is Isamu able to hear Myung´s song ? oh so it´s so scientific isn´t ? howf is it possible for Sharon to have adquired Myungs feelings over Isamu if she was a machine anyway ?

How can we criticize what´s shown in M0 if we´ve never seen the real nature of Protoculture , for all we know their technology could be lightyears away from our miserable conceptions.

For me it aint strange the APHOS could control the the Asuka carrier and the ANti-UN sub and make them levitate since the APHOS was also built with ( superior ) overtechnology , possibly the only thing it needed is some additional source of energy to make them levitate , hence the activation of the generators , etc...

What´s really puzzling is the fact that the APHOS was in total control of the situation and it could´ve quite easily destroyed the Monster and the Asuka , so WHY did it left Earth ? What relationship does all this have with the Zentradi coming to earth ? could it have been the PCS signal from the APHOS ?

All this signs only point out to some kind of sequel IMO

[Seven]

The only thing is that Kawamori isn't so big on making direct sequels as opposed to side stories. And only then he may put something into the Macross universe because he otherwise cannot get Bandai or whatever company to buy into a production unless he ties it into a previously successful production. The thought of a direct sequel to Zero is remote IMO, but I wouldn't be against it by any means if it was a TV series. Too bad they would only make such a decision based on how well the Zero OVAs sold... and has it really been that successful to the general anime audience of today (meaning not just the small niche market of 30 something Macross fans)?

[ewilen]

I too am a hardcore M+ fan but even considering that I´ll have to recognize that there´re magic elements within M+ , for instance , how the heck is Isamu able to hear Myung´s song ? oh so it´s so scientific isn´t ?

You mean Myung singing "Voices" and Isamu waking up? Ambiguous, although I'd have to refresh my memory. That kind of thing appears in a lot of movies--e.g., a woman falls down when her husband or son gets hurt or killed somewhere on the other side of the world. Is that magical? Dramatic license? Religious/superstitious "static"? I'm not sure we'd be having this conversation if M7 and M0 didn't contain things that are clearly, explicitly supernatural.

  howf  is it possible for Sharon to have adquired Myungs feelings over Isamu if she was a machine anyway ?

Come on, that's one of the oldest SF tropes around. The idea of the mind as an epiphenomenon of the brain, which is a biological computer, so when the "program" is transferred from an organic brain to an electronic one, the feelings get transferred, too. See: Lem, Stanislaw; Dick, Phillip K.; "What Are Little Girls Made Of" episode from the original Star Trek, etc., etc., etc.

[treatment]

I too am a hardcore M+ fan but even considering that I´ll have to recognize that there´re magic elements within M+ , for instance , how the heck is Isamu able to hear Myung´s song ? oh so it´s so scientific isn´t ?  howf  is it possible for Sharon to have adquired Myungs feelings over Isamu if she was a machine anyway ?

simple, easy and pretty much explainable.

see...

Sharon-AI has a sophisticated I/O system, which can send and receive communications back and forth on any Comm-Net equipped vehicles. This includes the YF-19.

Sharon-AI hacked the Macross Communication-Net in which the YF-19 (and prolly all other UN-Spacy military-vehicles as well) are tapped into. The intrusion into the YF-19 was even animated in Yang's scene.

Remember that Myung can listen to the talk between Isamu and Guld because Sharon allowed it. But Myung was blocked from input, i.e. talking to them.

As for Myung's feelings, it was programmed into Sharon to emit and evoke. Remember, Myung stated before that she's not just the producer of Sharon. All the contraptions and brain-scan activities and stuff being done before and during the concert all held testament to that.

But Sharon-AI got installed a rogue self-preservation and learning AI-program.

With all that, Sharon was not entirely perfect since in Sharon's arrogance and overconfidence, Myung's singing-voice simply got through. Allowed or not, it doesn't matter. Her singing got thru to Isamu for the few seconds that is enuff to disrupt the hynopsis. Even then it wasn't enuff, as Isamu still had to smashed his head on the hud to totally break the hynopsis.

Edited October 26, 2004 by treatment

[Aegis!]

I too am a hardcore M+ fan but even considering that I´ll have to recognize that there´re magic elements within M+ , for instance , how the heck is Isamu able to hear Myung´s song ? oh so it´s so scientific isn´t ?  howf  is it possible for Sharon to have adquired Myungs feelings over Isamu if she was a machine anyway ?

simple, easy and pretty much explainable.

see...

Sharon-AI has a sophisticated I/O system, which can send and receive communications back and forth on any Comm-Net equipped vehicles. This includes the YF-19.

Sharon-AI hacked the Macross Communication-Net in which the YF-19 (and prolly all other UN-Spacy military-vehicles as well) are tapped into. The intrusion into the YF-19 was even animated in Yang's scene.

Remember that Myung can listen to the talk between Isamu and Guld because Sharon allowed it. But Myung was blocked from input, i.e. talking to them.

As for Myung's feelings, it was programmed into Sharon to emit and evoke. Remember, Myung stated before that she's not just the producer of Sharon. All the contraptions and brain-scan activities and stuff being done before and during the concert all held testament to that.

But Sharon-AI got installed a rogue self-preservation and learning AI-program.

With all that, Sharon was not entirely perfect since in Sharon's arrogance and overconfidence, Myung's singing-voice simply got through. Allowed or not, it doesn't matter. Her singing got thru to Isamu for the few seconds that is enuff to disrupt the hynopsis. Even then it wasn't enuff, as Isamu still had to smashed his head on the hud to totally break the hynopsis.

that´s just making an account of the events on the OVA/Movie not an explanation as to HOW did her feelings got through to Sharon if said feelings couldn´t be saved as data , remember Myung wasn´t connected to Sharon when they instaled the AI chip , so how could Sharon absorb Myungs feelings without being able to save them in her bank memory or without being connected to Myungs mind?

And as you said yourself , Sharon blocked communications between the hall room where Myung was and the YF-19 so that Myung could only listen and not speak to them , so how did her singing got through ?

Back to topic , the only nitpicking I would have with Macross Zero is that to some degree the producers wasted an awesome history by not being able to plan the flow of events more carefuly beforehand , it´s like they had made the storyboards 15mins before going into production of each single episode , Eps. 2-4 could´ve been used more wisely. Neverthelles , this wasn´t a dissapointing series at all , in fact it´s a close 2nd place with M+.

Edited October 26, 2004 by Aegis!

[daeudi]

Someone (?) (sorry, I shoulda quoted) said that the AFOS and her fly off to the center of the galaxy- speculation? yes. Probable? yes.

AFOS was most likely the device that the protoculture used when tampering with our DNA (see Chronology- Before the Fall).

It is likely that the Annima Spiritia humans are a direct result of this tampering. Possible mixed breeding with someone from this island over the past centuries? Probably.

Singing lifts rocks, AFOS to some Protoculture outpost/stronghold/world? No one knows anything about it in the rest of UN Spacy except a select few, who tell no one....

COME ON PEOPLE- SK is getting ready to do what he swore he would never do!!!

The Megalord/Megaroad disappeared while heading towards the center of the galaxy to investigate singing, and was never heard from again....

The AFOS went somewhere with a singing girl and was never heard from again....

Macross: Lost Future - coming soon to a BitTorrent near you!

The AFOS said "Oh Rick!" and end of story....

[ewilen]

that´s just making an account of the events on the OVA/Movie not an explanation as to HOW did her feelings got through to Sharon if said feelings couldn´t be saved as data , remember Myung wasn´t connected to Sharon when they instaled the AI chip , so how could Sharon absorb Myungs feelings without being able to save them in her bank memory or without being connected to Myungs mind?

If it isn't stated explicitly, it's certainly implied that Sharon's artificial brain is at least partly modelled on Myung's from the beginning (and/or has its neural network taught by Myung whenever she's connected). Please back up the claim that none of Myung's neural patterns are stored in Sharon's memory.

  And as you said yourself , Sharon blocked communications between the hall room where Myung was and the YF-19 so that Myung could only listen and not speak to them , so how did her singing got through ?

This is a stronger point, but I addressed it above. Put another way, is Myung's singing really getting through to Isamu, or is this a dramatic way of representing his thoughts of Myung getting through Sharon's mind-control?

Besides, if Sharon is magical, why does she need a comm link to work her charms on Isamu? All he has to do is smash the panel, and the effect disappears completely.

It's not unreasonable to see telepathy or religious/spiritual effects in Macross Plus, but it's also not necessary.

[Renato]

Someone (?) (sorry, I shoulda quoted) said that the AFOS and her fly off to the center of the galaxy- speculation? yes. Probable? yes.

AFOS was most likely the device that the protoculture used when tampering with our DNA (see Chronology- Before the Fall).

It is likely that the Annima Spiritia humans are a direct result of this tampering. Possible mixed breeding with someone from this island over the past centuries? Probably.

Singing lifts rocks, AFOS to some Protoculture outpost/stronghold/world? No one knows anything about it in the rest of UN Spacy except a select few, who tell no one....

COME ON PEOPLE- SK is getting ready to do what he swore he would never do!!!

The Megalord/Megaroad disappeared while heading towards the center of the galaxy to investigate singing, and was never heard from again....

The AFOS went somewhere with a singing girl and was never heard from again....

Macross: Lost Future - coming soon to a BitTorrent near you!

The AFOS said "Oh Rick!" and end of story....

Remember also that the Macross 7 fleet is still heading towards the center of the galaxy, too.

Maybe it's time for a big Macross reunion.

(I highly doubt it, though..)

[TheLoneWolf]

Hey Renato, can you tell us what Japan's reaction is to Macross Zero ep.5?

[Renato]

Hey Renato, can you tell us what Japan's reaction is to Macross Zero ep.5?

Nope. I don't even know Japan's reaction to Innocence or Steamboy. Let's face it, we're all subculture Otakus here, no-one has even heard of Macross... Actually, I'm gonna look into subculture and cult stuff in the next few months in detail, so I'll let you know then.

I will say that I was lucky to rent the DVD when I did because it is constantly on rental now, along with Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop (even six years after release!!). So this is an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

[azrael]

Hey Renato, can you tell us what Japan's reaction is to Macross Zero ep.5?

Nope. I don't even know Japan's reaction to Innocence or Steamboy. Let's face it, we're all subculture Otakus here, no-one has even heard of Macross... Actually, I'm gonna look into subculture and cult stuff in the next few months in detail, so I'll let you know then.

I will say that I was lucky to rent the DVD when I did because it is constantly on rental now, along with Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop (even six years after release!!). So this is an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

According to Oricon's daily rankings, Episode 5 was #4 on the initial release date (remember, it's based on sales/rentals/money/etc) for animation releases. Gundam Seed and Ghost in the Shell TV 2nd season were ahead.

It has since fallen to 7th behind Alladin and the previously mentioned GitS TV 2nd season and Gundam Seed.

[Renato]

Hey Renato, can you tell us what Japan's reaction is to Macross Zero ep.5?

Nope. I don't even know Japan's reaction to Innocence or Steamboy. Let's face it, we're all subculture Otakus here, no-one has even heard of Macross... Actually, I'm gonna look into subculture and cult stuff in the next few months in detail, so I'll let you know then.

I will say that I was lucky to rent the DVD when I did because it is constantly on rental now, along with Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop (even six years after release!!). So this is an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

According to Oricon's daily rankings, Episode 5 was #4 on the initial release date (remember, it's based on sales/rentals/money/etc) for animation releases. Gundam Seed and Ghost in the Shell TV 2nd season were ahead.

It has since fallen to 7th behind Alladin and the previously mentioned GitS TV 2nd season and Gundam Seed.

In less than a week, it's behind Alladdin, a mainstream, 2-disc, affordable Disney family movie, released about a month ago.

I wouldn't call that a success, but then the target audience is otaku only.

[treatment]

i got the R2 now. and...

poo!!!!

edge-of-my-seats-poo-your-pants PHENOMENAL CG-animated dogfight action!

Especially if you have a 5.1 setup and a 27"+ screen.

A W E S O M E!!!

all I can say, it has elements of TV, DYRL, M2 and PLUS!

I did not detected any M7 tie-ins at all. Well, there's one pseudo-nod. But it's more of an Orguss-2 nod.

pic: Asuka's flying-ship engine ala SDF-1 engine in TV.

Edited October 26, 2004 by treatment

[treatment]

Shin emulates Hikaru's Minmay-rescue-attempt this time. DYRL-style but in battroid-mode, baybee!

Edited October 26, 2004 by treatment

[treatment]

Nora at 1'o-clock!

[treatment]

for the MiG-fans.

[treatment]

for the Ghost-fans

[treatment]

Shin's Cobra-maneuver.

that's it.

[treatment]

oh, yeah. for those interested.

the R2-pack. with the skinny DW-pamphlet.

[treatment]

fwiw, I didn't find it rushed at all. The pacing was actually really good.

the Shin monologue-recounting of what happened after ep-4 was just right on time.

the kamekaze-run of DD was nicely done.

the music was apropos.

even the Mao holo was ok.

[Keith]

Isamu hearing Myung's song when there's no real way he should have been able to? Spiritia!

I do hope this leads to something bigger though, like I said, a big clash between the U.N. & Protoculture may be next. Who knows... As for connections with 7, I still think its a viable theory that Ray could have been a child on the island, and hell, perhaps Basara is directly Shamen blood, Mao was still alive at the end, and would have been well within child bearing years when Basara was born.

[Agent ONE]

Finally saw it. I just glanced through this thread, but have to go back through to read everyone's comments more carefully.

I'll post a full review in the morning, but my initial feelings are that this episode was to par with the rest, and MZero as a whole was good.

I think you guys are forgetting Kawamori's comment that this wouldn't follow the the SDF-M TV storyline. It didn't, it followed the line of reasoning that Misa and Hikaru were having in their discussion on Protoculture Island in DYRL.

The AFOS was an organic security guard, left with people... humans who the Protoculture created, as said in DYRL. The purpose of the AFOS was to keep humans from making the same mistakes the Protoculture did with its galactic conquest and creation of clone armies, those being the Zjentohlauedy and the Meltohlauedy, as well as even the ever lame Protodevlin.

The Protoculture came to Earth to "Start again." That is why they created human kind.

I fully believe that the AFOS would have continued to distroy the entire planet, if Shin hadn't stoped Sarah from continuing to sing the song of death... As soon as the AFOS realized that she wasn't in battle anymore and she wasn't fighting the "Kadun" it just stoped.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Can't wait to see this. I will wait for the fansubs though.

Seems a little abrupt that the main character would disapear never to be seen or heard from again. Doesn't seem like a very happy ending or resolution imo.

Maybe the PC evolve like the invid from robotech hehe and start attacking the technologically advanced humans with biomechanical mechs? It would be the nature gods' revenge for all the atrocities commited against nature through high technology. I felt sorry for the forest that got blown up and all the insects that were trying to heal and protect nature in ep4 and i'm not much a green tree hugging person myself.

Also I got an uneasy feeling seeing morhping skin on the yf21 in mac+. Was this really explained much?

What I'm thinking is that the advanced PC ppl would have machines that no human resources would be able to synthesise and that we end up seeing strange phenomena that scientists can't really explain.

And yeah, it starts getting too magical/mystical/paranormal as the story evolves. Just some idea of what I think might happen if this is not the end for Zero. Maybe they will pull off a movie and try to compress the events from the ova for a mass audience, focusing on the main story of what is going to happen to the characters and not boring the masses with unecessary detail and cliff hanging moments?

I always get the feeling that fans are more hardcore on details and explanations whereas mainstream audiences are more caring about character development and how those characters end up. If you could compress all the big explosions, characters development, and mystery into a single movie it would appeal more to those who would not stand for 6 month breaks. The movie then, would lead into a new tv series and hooray we get something new.

Rick Misa and Minmay are cloned, have thier memories brought back, and the PC start a war with the humans due to thier mixing genes with the warlike zentreadi for fear they may be contaminated. (kind of how the humans are forbidden from mixing with the high elves in lotr ) jk

The PC would have monsters that could heal themselves and we see thier frankstein gentic engineered bugs (that happen to be like invid) at thier worst, creating a plague of these monsters that, like a virus, spreads and wipes out everything.. Both the PC and humans catch this virus and the environments they make contact with die from contamination. To cure this galactic aids epidemic and mad-monster's disease (like mad-cow type which creates violent behaviour and is used to make bioweapons of any creature lol) singing would need to be used to heal and put people in a positive mood to fight the disease (ever heard of cancer patients getting better when entertained or hanging around pets or dolphins?)

As more people sing, the disease is cured (because the soundwaves created generate certain shapes, patterns and frequencies that heal you on a molecular level - "evidence" of this effect possibly shown as reaction in the test tube in macross zero) and genetic modification experiments to create biohazardous weapons is forbidden from pc once and for all.. END This then ties up the reason music was so powerful in fighting the demonic protodevil and the genetically-modified zentreadi who's negative feelings towards life without culture, had influenced thier programming and conditioning to destroy each other.

Of course nature would provide the herbs to heal ilness, while man-made drugs would be stamped out and culture would be restored again, where like the high elves in lord of the rings who had learned to lie in harmony with nature, people would be forced to protect thier unique planet's environments and become more like spriritual and primitive hippies.

Edited October 26, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker