More Shadow Force news

[Radd]

I thought the Masters were worried because despite the fact that with the Zentradi they were far more powerful than the Invid, they had lost their Zentradi army, and their non-Zentradi forces were weak because their protoculture supplies were running low due to their ongoing battles with both the Invid and the Disciples of Zor?

Since their Zentradi army had been wiped out, and their force to recover the Protoculture Matrix that had been hidden in the SDF-1 had failed, the Masters were in a battle of attrition that both sides would likely lose.

However, then the Invid found Earth, and plenty of Protoculture, but it would take time to secure and produce enough of the Flower of Life to really build their strength. Something they didn't really have time to do before they were chased off.

In the time leading up to the Invid leaving, it seemed like the Regis was just being arrogant, and then rationalizing her decision to retreat when it became obvious this was not a fight anyone could really win. She got in a parting shot, wiping out a number of the REF ships and the Neutron S Missles on her way out, but there's also nothing that shows the Invid can just at will launch such devastating attacks willy nilly. If they could, they could have wiped out each of the fleets just as easily, rather than sending their soldiers out to the slaughter. They could have also whiped out the moon bases like that.

As for the Regis just letting the humans keep their moon bases and attack whenever they feel like, that's quite possibly even more stupid than opening up a second front to begin a land war in Asia. Those attacks cost them countless soldiers each time, and in the end cost them the planet.

[1st Border Red Devil]

1st Border, I am soooo happy that HG cares nothing about your misguided opinions. Not that I hold all that much faith in the new series being any good... but I'm fairly certain the things you feel are fact will be easily refuted.

Only in your mind......

You think the Invid are weak.... yet we are already hearing that they are a terror to be dealt with.

Oh really? Care to explain the Masters mentioning the Invid in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters?

So, what are you going to say when the new series shows them as being powerful? "It conflicts with the old series so the new series isn't canon!" No, I think you're just wrong and refusing to own up to it.

I take it back, you obviously were born a moron....

How protracted was the Invid war with Earth? Um, not at all. Was it because The Masters had done so much damage to the ASC? Okay, it's a nice thought

Thats what the Narrator says in The Invid Invasion....so you're not doing to well....

but the Invid destroy all the remaining army, at least three massive reclamation strikes

Hmm....must be watching different animation because I saw Lancer's 10th (Mars) Division get crushed and Scott's 21st (Mars) Division get crushed. The 36th (Jupiter) Division got through. How else do you explain the Shadow Fighters at the battle of Reflex Point?

and then the remaining REF reclamation force upon its return.

Hmmm....I do believe the Commander of the SDF-4 said they could hold out for a few more hours. Or, maybe it is you've forgotten that each of the 8 Neutron-S Missiles had an Ikazuchi-class Cruiser as a tender, plus 3 Ikazuchi's as close escort to the SDF-4.

Was the ASC more powerful than all of that??? The animation does not support that.

Sorry, absolutely wrong. The Army of the Southern Cross had a significant numerical advantage in terms of fighters/mecha as well as star fleet. These figures represent the minimum's possible.

UEF Home Fleet during the 2nd Robotech War:

2 Tokugawa-class Super Carriers (carries 1000 fighters each)

29 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders (carries 220 fighters each)

104 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers (carries 75 fighters each)

208 Nelson-class Destroyers* (carries 45 fighters each)

15 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles (carries 6 fighters each)

Grand total minimum: 25,930

UEEF Fleet during the 3rd Robotech War

SDF-4 Izumo (carries 3120 fighters)

22 Ikazuchi-class Troop Cruisers (carries 584 fighters each)**

2 IZUM-Series Logistics Ships (carries 96 fighters each)

77 Garfish-class Light Cruisers (carries 15 fighters each)

144 Horizon-class Troop Shuttles* (carries 2 fighters each)

Grand total minimum: 17,603

Thank you for playing 'I don't know what the f*ck I'm talking about'. Kindly shut the f*ck up when you claim the REF was more powerful than the ASC, cause it ain't true.

* Because the series focuses on mid-range ships and not the small ones, an accurate count is not possible. We come up with 32 Destroyers. However, in every fleet panshot, there are always x2 destroyer escorts to every battlecruiser.

** This includes x4 Ikazuchi's for Point K to account for the over 2000 fighters based there according to Scott in Enter Marlene.

Leonard is a moron, he was probably gorging on donuts and ignored someone telling him there was a big ship landing on Earth. Your suppositions are no more valid than anyone else's.

Nice strawman. I'll take that as a non-answer.

The Regis never states why she is leaving.

Yet her 3rd in command says the UEEF outnumbers the Invid. I doubt Sera was lying to the Regiss.

She's a Goddess, she knows she's not going to be defeated.

Yet she says 'We shall not be defeated!'.....

Point K is also, clearly, not a base, it's a gathering point.

So Scott is lying when he says it was an Advance Base created before Hunter knew who it was that had invaded the Earth. Try again....

All you can do is suppose, and again, your suppositions don't mean more than my own.

Sorry, I'm using dialogue from the Tv series. All you are doing is talking out your ass.

Can you please tell me what in the animation proves that no one on Earth knew of the Invid?]/quote]

Jesus f*cking Chr*st! Watch Catastrophe you moron!

Besides, it's possible the Invid were a huge threat at one point and then beaten off a planet and disappeared with the Zents thinking they were gone forever... only to have the emerge even more powerful than before.

Keep blathering the McKinney perspective Jenius.....

Again, you lack imagination, the Disciples of Zor could have been anything, including an alliance that included the Invid. So, by your own logic, the Invid would be powerful.

No you dumf*ck. The DoZ and the Invid are not the same because they are treated separately, mentioned separately and the Invid are dismissed as a threat in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters. The DoZ, on the otherhand, are not dismissed out of hand.

Again, I think you prove my point, the Invid are so powerful they don't feel the need to worry about humans trying to reclaim Earth.

Without a doubt, you don't have brain cell one in your head....

After all, it's easier to defend than to attack.

338160[/snapback]

Not when you are encircled.....

Edit: Ok, would someone please tell me why the 'quote' tags are not working?

Edited October 20, 2005 by 1st Border Red Devil

[phoenix01]

This is just my $0.02, but I think we all need to take a deep breath before a moderator comes along and locks this thread. It's only a cartoon and there's no point in calling each other names over it. So what if HG screws up the continuity of their one big production? It's not like it hasn't happened before in other series. There's no use getting in a big pi$$ing match over whether this is this or that is that.

In through nose out the mouth, in through nose out the mouth.

There, don't you feel better?

Now, back to our regularly scheduled dump on HG, already in progress.

[Gui]

So, basically, to quote a friend of mine: 'Robotech's background is a piece of Swiss cheese'

[Radd]

Edit: Ok, would someone please tell me why the 'quote' tags are not working?

338183[/snapback]

They stop working if you use too many of them. Same question came up in another thread.

I forget how many is "too many" though.

[mechaninac]

Ah, the wonders of attempting to splice three disparate series into one monolithic jumbled mess...no matter how hard you try to shoehorn stuff in, or massage what's already there you can't make it all fit.

And the fact that some people can not only take this bastard child called Robotech, and I like Robotech in its own right, so seriously, and actually quote lines of dialogue and specific episodes truly scares the $hit out of me.

Everyone, just step back, take a breather, and let reality's perspective set in.

[bsu legato]

So nobody wants to address the "McKinneyism" that is Zand? Good lord, I wish they would at least make up their minds as to what their story is.

As for all this nonsense about "shadows," why couldn't that single line of dialog have just been figurative? Why do fans (current HG staff writers included) have to take everything so literally, and concoct whole stories to explain what was merely a simple line of dialog?

[Keith]

So nobody wants to address the "McKinneyism" that is Zand?  Good lord, I wish they would at least make up their minds as to what their story is.

As for all this nonsense about "shadows," why couldn't that single line of dialog have just been figurative? Why do fans (current HG staff writers included) have to take everything so literally, and concoct whole stories to explain what was merely a simple line of dialog?

338228[/snapback]

Because they realized too far into production "oh poo, we don't have any story" and panicked, and went with the most easily accessable route, which is cheap fanfiction!

[danth]

On the subject of Regis' power, she did destroy the entire reclaimation star fleet and the neutron-s missiles on a whim and in a few seconds' time. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

Edited October 20, 2005 by danth

[Hurin]

Don't blame me if you can't put 2 & 2 together

338147[/snapback]

Well, when I do that, I get 4. When you do it, you get 268.2 and then assert boldy that it's really the only reasonable conclusion.

[1st Border Red Devil]

On the subject of Regis' power, she did destroy the entire reclaimation star fleet and the neutron-s missiles on a whim and in a few seconds' time. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

338241[/snapback]

Better get your eyes checked Danth....she destroyed the Neutron-S Missiles...yes, but she got 3 Cruisers: 2 Garfish & 1 Ikazuchi & 3 Horizon Troop Shuttle's in energy wake....not the entire reclamation mission. There would still be 10 Ikazuchi's and the SDF-4 remaining.

[Agent ONE]

Don't blame me if you can't put 2 & 2 together

338147[/snapback]

Well, when I do that, I get 4. When you do it, you get 268.2 and then assert boldy that it's really the only reasonable conclusion.

338250[/snapback]

Hey do you guys remember when Roy changed Keith's member title to "Don't Listen to me".. That was awesome.

[Hurin]

Better get your eyes checked Danth....she destroyed the Neutron-S Missiles...yes, but she got 3 Cruisers: 2 Garfish & 1 Ikazuchi & 3 Horizon Troop Shuttle's in energy wake....not the entire reclamation mission. There would still be 10 Ikazuchi's and the SDF-4 remaining.

338251[/snapback]

See, that's where you clowns lose me. You can't look at that image, count things up, and then state definitively the casualty figures for the fleet and then proceed to tell someone that they are definitely wrong and need to get their eyes checked based on your interpretation of it.

What the animators show you there could be all there is to see, or it could be representative of what's happening to the entire fleet.

Or, to put it another way. . . if we, as viewers, only see three valkyries get destroyed in Bye-Bye Mars, is it then safe to state matter-of-factly that the Macross only lost three valkyries during that engagement? Of course not!

But what is really interesting is that The Robotech Masters are somehow involved in The Lord of the Rings. I had no idea that the "return of the Shadow" so often mentioned in Tolkien had anything to do with Robotech. I thought the word shadow, used by the Regis and by Tolkien simply meant "influence" or "dominion". . . I now see that I was obviously in error. It must always refer to the Robotech Masters. I would argue, even outside of Robotech.

Regardless, this thread has to be the biggest fanboy fest since the Star Wars Episode III discussions.

H

Edited October 20, 2005 by Hurin

[bsu legato]

Regardless, this thread has to be the biggest fanboy fest since the Star Wars Episode III discussions. 

H

338261[/snapback]

Regis hands = too small?

[Agent ONE]

Regardless, this thread has to be the biggest fanboy fest since the Star Wars Episode III discussions. 

H

338261[/snapback]

Regis hands = too small?

338262[/snapback]

No kidding man, I can hardly watch with those small hands.

[1st Border Red Devil]

You can't look at that image, count things up, and then state definitively the casualty figures for the fleet and then proceed to tell someone that they are definitely wrong and need to get their eyes checked based on your interpretation of it.

Thats where you are wrong. Unless dialogue states differently, we can only definitively show that the REF lost at least 3 divisions (as per dialogue) which amounts to so many ships. So, no, you are wrong and I am right.

What the animators show you there could be all there is to see, or it could be representative of what's happening to the entire fleet.

Again, unless statements are made otherwise, you are wrong. What the animators wanted, they should have shown or made sure dialogue said as much.

Edited October 20, 2005 by 1st Border Red Devil

[Hurin]

Thats where you are wrong. Unless dialogue states differently, we can only definitively show that the REF lost at least 3 divisions (as per dialogue) which amounts to so many ships. So, no, you are wrong and I am right.

. . .

Again, unless statements are made otherwise, you are wrong. What the animators wanted, they should have shown or made sure dialogue said as much.

338264[/snapback]

You've dug yourself quite a hole there. And I think you know it. To say that you always assume that you are shown everything there is to see unless you are actively told otherwise via explicit narration. Wow. That's just sorta scary. I'm really sorta at a loss as to how you go about understanding most of the media that you watch.

Story-tellers often give you a "sense" of what's going on in a larger scale. In battle scenes, they show four guys getting mowed down in order to give you the sense of a lot more of it happening elsewhere (without you having to be told). When a flood strikes, a movie shows a few people running and screaming to give you the impression that it's happening all over. They don't need to show it. When the Macross is battling the Zentraedi, they show 2-3 valkyries destroyed because they know you'll take that as an indication that it's happening all over the place (without have having to be told). And, I find it interesting that you addressed each of my points above except the example of the Macross episode of Bye-Bye Mars.

Here's one other point. . . have you considered that the people re-envisioning Mospeada as Robotech Part 3 would have liked to have shown the rest of the fleet destroyed (including the SDF-4). . . except they couldn't because it didn't friggin' exist in the animation?!? Ya know, because there really is no SDF-4 or rest of the fleet in Mospeada?!? Do you think, in Mospeada, that the fleet isn't intended to be shown as totally destroyed? Given that the Regis is shown to have that much power, and you see capital ships destroyed by her, does it not make sense to believe the fleet was entirely destroyed unless we are told otherwise? And if it makes sense in Mospeada, why does it not make sense in Robotech? Because you have a novel that has been disavowed that gives you a list of the ships and you didn't specifically see someone yell: "Oh no! There goes the McKinney! And the Macek! Oh God! They got the SDF-4! They're all gone!!!!"

Bottom line: Nobody can prove that the whole fleet was destroyed. You can't prove that it wasn't (based on that image alone). I'm willing to accept the former. You seem unwilling to accept the latter.

H

Edit: Having not seen RT Part 3 for over a decade, I concede that in the RT version of things, at lease some ships survived, since they needed to twist things that way so that something was left to go hunt Admiral Hunter with. . . but to look at that image and state: "Look, that's exactly how many were lost. Case closed. I'm right. You're Wrong." I'm sorry, that's just assinine.

Edit: Your own words: They lost "at least 3 divisions." Why the "at least." You should know exactly how many they lost by that image!!! Seems pretty concrete to me. After all to either side of what that camera is showing, absolutely nothing is happening. It's just empty space.

Edited October 20, 2005 by Hurin

[mechaninac]

Don't blame me if you can't put 2 & 2 together

338147[/snapback]

Well, when I do that, I get 4. When you do it, you get 268.2 and then assert boldy that it's really the only reasonable conclusion.

338250[/snapback]

2 + 2 = 4

2 & 2 together is 22

Learn your math. (j/k)

[JB0]

Don't blame me if you can't put 2 & 2 together

338147[/snapback]

Well, when I do that, I get 4. When you do it, you get 268.2 and then assert boldy that it's really the only reasonable conclusion.

338250[/snapback]

2 + 2 = 4

2 & 2 together is 22

Learn your math. (j/k)

338272[/snapback]

And 1+1=10.

[danth]

What the animators wanted, they should have shown or made sure dialogue said as much.

338264[/snapback]

By your logic, Scott Bernard never took a poo in his whole life. If it wasn't shown in the animation or explicitly stated, it never happened.

Also, the people who wrote the story for Robotech were not the animators. It could be that Macek wanted to show the whole damn fleet destroyed, but they still had to use the original animation.

[Sundown]

And 1+1=10.

338287[/snapback]

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know binary, and those who don't.

-Al

[Agent ONE]

This thread is awesome.

[Osean]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

Edited October 20, 2005 by Osean

[yellowlightman]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

338311[/snapback]

Yeah, because paying half-naked women to pretend to be interested in you is a lot cooler than debating a 20 year old cartoon.

[Osean]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

338311[/snapback]

Yeah, because paying half-naked women to pretend to be interested in you is a lot cooler than debating a 20 year old cartoon.

338312[/snapback]

Exactly.

[Agent ONE]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

338311[/snapback]

Yeah, because paying half-naked women to pretend to be interested in you is a lot cooler than debating a 20 year old cartoon.

338312[/snapback]

HAHA! I SO agree, I hate strippers. I totally fell in love with one once the first time I went to a strip club, went on 2 dates with her and realized just how god awfull fake they are while they are working.

[Sundown]

Better get your eyes checked Danth....she destroyed the Neutron-S Missiles...yes, but she got 3 Cruisers: 2 Garfish & 1 Ikazuchi & 3 Horizon Troop Shuttle's in energy wake....not the entire reclamation mission. There would still be 10 Ikazuchi's and the SDF-4 remaining.

See, that's where you clowns lose me. You can't look at that image, count things up, and then state definitively the casualty figures for the fleet and then proceed to tell someone that they are definitely wrong and need to get their eyes checked based on your interpretation of it.

Well, see, actually according to that image, only approximately 1/6 of that cruiser in the top corner was destroyed, because only that much of it is visible in that frame. We must conclude that if the entire cruiser was entirely destroyed, the show's makers would have shown all of it, and not left most of it out of frame. So there's a ship out there with a neat triangle cut out of it. Phear the Regis's power.

It's easy for fans to get drawn into details and start using specific imagery to back up their own versions of continuity (which had been intentionally left vague by the creators). When they do so, it's often easier for them to set down arbitrary and absolute rules on how imagery and dialogue should be interpreted-- for instance, only 10 ships were shown destroyed so no more than that actually were-- and it gives them a sense of having something concrete to work with, which is kind of comfortable for someone into nitpicky details and specifics. But this approach tends to ignore the aesthetics of storytelling, and the entire reason why the creators and animators might have chosen certain shots and showed certain things in the first place.

For example, perhaps the animators thought that a close shot would show the destruction better, on a more personal level. But they also showed that the destruction wasn't isolated to those ships shown by the fact that at least some of the wake was outside of the shot. The impression the viewer is supposed to get is that there was a lot of damage, and likely much if not all of the fleet was destroyed-- because the animators didn't show surviving ships either. If it was important that the viewer know that most of the fleet remained, they would have shown it. But as it stands, it seems that by the animators' artistic use of camera angles we should conclude that much of the fleet was probably destroyed, and there might or might not be survivors, likely few. We are supposed to marvel at the Regis's power, not to count specks on the screen and conclude in relief that most of the force was actually safe.

Ultimately, holding storytellers to some rule that forces them to either show visually or explain through dialogue everything that did or didn't happen is to hold them to an artificial constraint that they never held themselves to. What's ultimately important is the intent of a creator, what we think the storyteller is trying to imply, and not our own desire to have everything happen shown or told explicitly.

-Al

[bsu legato]

Yes, yes to Sundown you listen.

[Hurin]

Yes, yes to Sundown you listen.

338321[/snapback]

Sorta what I was saying. Except people actually still listen to Sundown.

H

[1st Border Red Devil]

Ultimately, holding storytellers to some rule that forces them to either show visually or explain through dialogue everything that did or didn't happen is to hold them to an artificial constraint that they never held themselves to.

Within limits of reason, of course. The aforementioned Scott never taking a dump in his life is an example.

What's ultimately important is the intent of a creator, what we think the storyteller is trying to imply

Except where 'intent' is changed afterwards. There are limits to 'author's intent'.

Case in point: Macek wrote in The Sentinels that Major Carpenter's ship was a brand new prototype. That conflicts with not only dialogue, stated by the XO of the ship that its been their home for 15 yrs, but also visuals that show an exact replica of said ship waiting for liftoff 13 episodes later.

Another case in point: Macek claimed after Robotech had aired that the SDF-1 & SDF-2 were the only ships in the UEF arsenal until the SDF-3 was built. That, again, violates several visual cues in the series that show not only is the UEF building the next generation of warships (we see the remains of an Ardennes-class Battlecruiser and a Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle in eps. #31 Khyron's Revenge) but we also see numerous ships of Breetai's 1 million plus warship fleet being used by the UEF.

By your definition, the Tv series doesn't matter, it only matters what Macek thought! Never mind that he couldn't keep the continuity, much less the timeline, straight. According to him, the 2nd Robotech War took place in 2024. Funny, Dana looks mighty old to be all of 12 yrs of age.

Yes, there are times the dialogue and the visuals conflict, but those are not THAT numerous.

Edited October 20, 2005 by 1st Border Red Devil

[Agent ONE]

Ultimately, holding storytellers to some rule that forces them to either show visually or explain through dialogue everything that did or didn't happen is to hold them to an artificial constraint that they never held themselves to.

Within limits of reason, of course. The aforementioned Scott never taking a dump in his life is an example.

What's ultimately important is the intent of a creator, what we think the storyteller is trying to imply

Except where 'intent' is changed afterwards. There are limits to 'author's intent'.

Case in point: Macek wrote in The Sentinels that Major Carpenter's ship was a brand new prototype. That conflicts with not only dialogue, stated by the XO of the ship that its been their home for 15 yrs, but also visuals that show an exact replica of said ship waiting for liftoff 13 episodes later.

Another case in point: Macek claimed after Robotech had aired that the SDF-1 & SDF-2 were the only ships in the UEF arsenal until the SDF-3 was built. That, again, violates several visual cues in the series that show not only is the UEF building the next generation of warships (we see the remains of an Ardennes-class Battlecruiser and a Pegasus-class Assault Shuttle in eps. #31 Khyron's Revenge) but we also see numerous ships of Breetai's 1 million plus warship fleet being used by the UEF.

By your definition, the Tv series doesn't matter, it only matters what Macek thought! Never mind that he couldn't keep the continuity, much less the timeline, straight. According to him, the 2nd Robotech War took place in 2024. Funny, Dana looks mighty old to be all of 12 yrs of age.

Yes, there are times the dialogue and the visuals conflict, but those are not THAT numerous.

338342[/snapback]

So you are saying that Robotech has no continunity and is lame??

[Hurin]

The irony of a RT fan getting all bent out of shape about them changing things to suit the sequel just cracks me up.

Apparently, it's okay to change the series to cram them into Robotech. But changing Robotech to cram on a sequel is just plain out of bounds.

Why would you expect them to have any more respect for the story and continuity of Robotech than they did for Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada when they originall butchered those series?

H

[danth]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

338311[/snapback]

Dude, I am down for that in a heartbeat.

Yeah, because paying half-naked women to pretend to be interested in you is a lot cooler than debating a 20 year old cartoon.

338312[/snapback]

Anyone who goes to a titty bar for that reason is pathetic. I go for the T&A rubbed all over my face, not to pretend the girls like me.

[JB0]

I can't believe some of you guys are getting worked up about the fine details of Robotech. I think a daily trip to the nudie bar for a week would calm everybody down, and restore order and bring back traquility to this thread.

338311[/snapback]

Yeah, because paying half-naked women to pretend to be interested in you is a lot cooler than debating a 20 year old cartoon.

338312[/snapback]

It's certainly more fun. For participants and spectators alike.

[jenius]

Anyone who goes to a titty bar for that reason is pathetic. I go for the T&A rubbed all over my face, not to pretend the girls like me.

Yeah, I don't go to the movies because I think what's happening is real and genuine... I go to be entertained. Call me strange, but I am thoroughly entertained by having my face firmly between two big breasts. It's certainly worth $1 to me Heck my gf doesn't mind having her face between two breasts every now-and-then either and the entertainment of that is far superior!

I was going to go tit-for-tat with 1st Border again but now I see he is clearly insane and there's no point. Any one who can argue his version of anything is superior to the one being produced by the creators and that only he understands the creators' original intent has got to be engaged in some sort of psychosis. Doesn't matter anyway, with every new RT product created his version of RT reality slips further and further away...

So you are saying that Robotech has no continunity and is lame?? huh.gif

I think that sums up the moral of this story nicely. If we can have five people familiar with the story have five different takes on the event and point to five different scenes that support their arguments then yeah... that's about right.

Edited October 21, 2005 by jenius