This really burned my @$$

[myk]

Environment? Considering that none of us from today will be around to see the results of our self indulgent natures on the environment, I have to wonder why anyone cares?

Let's face it-the majority of us do not care about the environment, it's the high cost of gasoline that everyone is so fired up about. But is that the fault of SUV/gas guzzling operators such as myself? Yes, but not entirely. It's the oil companies that are to be blamed here. Everyone on this planet could drive a Suburban and the subsequent demand wouldn't automatically require a ridiculously high cost of gasoline; that high cost is the decision of the people in control of the oil.

Cut the demand for oil and switch to hybrids, or some other form of transportation you say? Yeah right. No one will ever embrace that idea, and the gas guzzling vehicle makers and expensive gasoline supplying oil companies are only too happy to oblige us...

[NERV]

realisticly nobody shud ever need anytihng bigger than an F-150/explorer. if you actually need to transport more than 4-5 kids then u need to stop fornicating. worlds overpopulated as it is. the thing that really gets me is that most of these suv's arent even capable of real offroading, they are just big for the sake of being big. and since when did the excursion become a 'full sized' SUV? i remeber when the grand cherokee was the biggest suv on the road and now its one of the smaller ones. and with these 3-5 ton monsters all over the roads its not much better than having 18 wheelers all over the place, half the roads in my town are just barely large enough to fit a large suin the lane but people drive like idiots and always start drifint into the oncoming lane, ive almost been clipped by suv's at least 10 times in the last week and i dont drive that much.

[yellowlightman]

Cut the demand for oil and switch to hybrids, or some other form of transportation you say? Yeah right. No one will ever embrace that idea, and the gas guzzling vehicle makers and expensive gasoline supplying oil companies are only too happy to oblige us...

No one will ever embrace it? HAH! Toyota dealerships have waiting lists 6+ months long for the Prius, and demand will likely be just as big if not greater for their new hybrid Highlander SUV. Not to mention Ford's new hybrid SUV.

Change will come eventually, hybrids are merely a stop-gap method of conservation until the technology and infrastructure for alternative fuels like hydrogen are fully figured out and implemented.

Not to mention that SUV's are just plain dumb. Need the space? Get a (smaller) pickup. Too many kids? Wear a condom. The SUV is a frivolous egobooster that people drive around to make them feel like theit lives are bold and exciting. The vast majority of people don't need them.

[mikeszekely]

i think the gov should just step in and say "f- you all, no more gas cars!" and give each of us a free electric car with free lifetime maintenance. but of course, even if we did have to pay for the electric cars, they wouldn't go for it cuz their greedy little paws have a stake in oil.(ahem*bush*ahem)

My ass. Where do you people think electricity comes from? You think your electrical outlet is some gateway to another dimension where electricity abounds? I'm no expert on how generators work, but I do know that most of them burn oil for fuel. I think I read in Pop Sci that if every gasoline-burning car, truck, and SUV was replaced with a totally electric car, we'd actually consume MORE oil to meet the increased demand for electricity than we would if we refined it into gasoline and burned it in the engine. Now how about we all stop blaming Bush and the Republicans for stuff that's only their fault in the minds of the extreme left?

[mikeszekely]

Cut the demand for oil and switch to hybrids, or some other form of transportation you say?  Yeah right.  No one will ever embrace that idea, and the gas guzzling vehicle makers and expensive gasoline supplying oil companies are only too happy to oblige us...

No one will ever embrace it? HAH! Toyota dealerships have waiting lists 6+ months long for the Prius, and demand will likely be just as big if not greater for their new hybrid Highlander SUV. Not to mention Ford's new hybrid SUV.

Change will come eventually, hybrids are merely a stop-gap method of conservation until the technology and infrastructure for alternative fuels like hydrogen are fully figured out and implemented.

Not to mention that SUV's are just plain dumb. Need the space? Get a (smaller) pickup. Too many kids? Wear a condom. The SUV is a frivolous egobooster that people drive around to make them feel like theit lives are bold and exciting. The vast majority of people don't need them.

By 2006, a lot of dealers will have hybrid vehicles. I think Mitsubishi is even going to have a hybrid Eclipse that's supposed to get almost as much hp as the current GTS model (206 for the hybrid, 210 for the 2004 GTS).

[mikeszekely]

American engines uses too much gas! But it seems like no one are willing to use Japanese cars.

Are you kidding me? While Chevy and Ford seem to have the truck market cornered still, seems that for every Ford car on the road, there's three Hondas, and for every Chevy car on the road, there's three Toyotas. I personally drive a Mitsubishi, and my wife's looking to buy a Toyota Echo. My best friend drives a Toyota Matrix. While the senior citizen crown may still prefer their Buicks, Japanese I-4s are in.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Not to derail any more than this thread is already derailed but in recent printed sales numbers the Japanese Import makers currenly only hold about 30% of the American light vehicle market with the Domestic makers holding about 60% still. That "Import" number even includes the domestically produced "Import" vehicles made in the Americas. While it could be argued that Japanese import cars "outlast" their domestic competition in the long run you can pro-rate those numbers for all the used cars floating around out there and even then the japanese imports still do not surpass the number of domestic light vehicles on the roads. While it may appear that the imports dominate the states in certain places they are just a small piece of the automotive pie with the domestic makers still holding the lion's share of the vehicles on the road.

The next part is OpEd so take it as you will. American automotive makers have proven time and time again that they are slow to react to trends and when they do they ride that trend into the ground, preferring to tell the american consumer what they want rather than letting them make up their own mind. I would not be suprised if the true electric or hydrogen car market keeps getting put off due to new "flavor of the month" specialty cars popping up. SUV's are only the current incarnation of the same old large, gas guzzling, heavy American cars that have always prowled the roads. We Americans love our aircraft carrier cars... or at least we think we do.

[NERV]

i deifnitely hear what you say about the american manufacturers telling us what we want, like the 'retro' trend, started with the prowler and it was nice, then came the PT cruiser and it started getting ugly, now they are going retro on everything and even bringing back old car names just for the name, the PT cruiser is a hideous bloated remnant of the beautiful Pronto prototype, the the chevy SXT(i tihnk) it another horrible looking thing, perhaps if it was curvier but its a curbe that just snaps to a flat edge, the new charger and mustang i dont like, they look nice but they are just rehashes of the old designs, that just lacks effort, at least the new cobra is pretty much a new car with a few nods to the original design, o and to get the topic back on track again, just because the american companies produce big nasty trucks and suvs doesnt mean that the japanese arent doing it too, the nissan titan and armada? the names alone sound wastefully large, and the new toyota highlanders are almost as big as the expeditions, and the japanese cars arent that much better on gas than american cars, the japanaese cars r just higher quality

[Godzilla]

Sorry to burst your bubble but both Democrats and Republicans like everyone else does see one color: the color of money. So what does that mean? Oil companies are influencing the govt one way or another. And guess what? Other companies, political action groups, special interests groups, etc dump money to candidates. I am willing to bet that both Kerry and Bush accept contributions from oil companies. So blaming Bush especially (or for the fact of the matter any president) on this is ludicrious. People are looking for someone to blame on this oil price hike. If you read my earlier post, you will understand how price of oil is determined.

And if you havent noticed, some ppl are not willing to to relinquish there gas guzzelling vehicles. I know half my co-workers here ARE WILLING TO DIE before someone take away their SUV or sports car. Before we blame the, OPEC, President, Prime Minister, ect, we better blame ourselves first. We have to ween ourselves off of the dependency of foreign oil. We need to find alternatives or oil within the US. Canada is getting oil from oil shales yet we dont because of "environmental" issues. And we can't drill for Oil in Alaska because Environmental groups wants to preserve Alaska. Like it or not OIL is vital to national security and to the economy and it isnt going away unless we, THE PEOPLE, force that change. Saying the govt should do it is pure idiocy. If you havent read the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, I suggest you do.

Oh, Americans cars do not suck as bad as they did in the 1980s. The new Ford SUV hybrid get 31 mpg. Are they at a level of quality of the Japanese? Not really but they are getting close. And to tell you the truth, how do you define what is American these days? Toyota has plants in Kentucky. (My camry was built in Kentucky) BMW has plants in South Carolina. So what do you mean when you say American cars suck?

No offense to all but before you make blanket statements like Bush is the reason why gas prices are up or that American cars suck you need to do your homework because making statements like that make you look ignorant. I cannot stand ppl who make statements of generalization before they have facts.

[pfunk]

American engines uses too much gas! But it seems like no one are willing to use Japanese cars.

Are you kidding me? While Chevy and Ford seem to have the truck market cornered still, seems that for every Ford car on the road, there's three Hondas, and for every Chevy car on the road, there's three Toyotas. I personally drive a Mitsubishi, and my wife's looking to buy a Toyota Echo. My best friend drives a Toyota Matrix. While the senior citizen crown may still prefer their Buicks, Japanese I-4s are in.

Hmm, Moms 94 trans am V8 got 24MPG on the highway and 18 city (her driving)

My 96 vette got 28 highway and 16 city (Me driving )

My 2003 ford diesel crew cab gets 17 in the city (again, my size 12 is heavy), lets see a toyota tow and haul what I do.

Quality,,,another HMMMM, take a look at mitsubishies 4bangers (2.2 i think) 60,000 miles and BOOM no oil preasure due to belt failure

The truth isJD Powers, motor trend, consumers.... are bought and proven to be,. Ive worked in the auto industry for 15yrs for anyone from toyota to porshe, and they are all the same including GM, they have low price vehicals with lower quality and exspensive vehicals with a little better quality. OH, as for parts, thier is no true Japaniese, American, German, Swiss, car, they ALL share the same parts and the same people design and engineer them, the only difference is where the profit goes. 90% of cars are studioed in Cali or Detroit,,,the other 10% are Italian

I buy american, cause the profit stays here,,,,,and thats the ONLY reason (and the others dont make a good truck (niether does GM in my opinion (who I work for now))

[Nightbat]

FYI:

1 liter = 0.264 fl gal

0.264 fl gal = €1.29

1 fl gal = €4.89

So if you tank regular gas in Holland, you'll pay about $6.10 per gallon.

Yep and from every litre €0.69 is taxes, then we add 19% VAT

so:

€1.29 / 1.019 = €1.265947

€1.26 - €0.69 = €0.575947

Here's the funny part:

because the fuelprice was so low 10-12 yrs back

our primeminister added 25 Guilder-cents to the gasprice

with the promise we -when gas prices woud rise again- "would get it back"

fl0.25 cts = €0.113445

€0.575947 - €0.113445 = 0.462502 <- the real price of on litre of regular fuel

A while back we wanted that €0.11 back

Guess what: politicians recently decided, because of low economy we won't and

never will get it back

[Agent ONE]

Humans are hipocrates man.

I am one of the few that isn't one. I have no preconceived notions about peace or war, business or environment. Fiscal policy determines all of my political decisions.

[Deadzone]

No offense to all but before you make blanket statements like Bush is the reason why gas prices are up or that American cars suck you need to do your homework because making statements like that make you look ignorant. I cannot stand ppl who make statements of generalization before they have facts.

How dare you! I challenge you to a duel! We will duel baboon style, raise our posteriors and fling feces at each other at twenty paces.

And furthermore, it is every Americans right to make uninformed generalizations. Besides, it is so much easier to sit at home, watch dumb reality television, then blame all the politicians when things are going bad. Let's face it. Being Monday morning or armchair quarterbacks is where it is at. Kind of reminds me of when I made a custom and got criticized all over the place on how I should have done this, or done that, and people called it boring or garbage etc...

On a more serious note, I actually have more time to investigate these things because I am currently unemployed. I do feel you're frustrations, though. I love how so many people complain that 90% of Americans are ignorant, then I start asking them questions and find out they know nothing about what they are talking about. They have no facts, just stuff they got off of television.

It's the same thing with anything. People bitch about how bad movies are but continually go watch them. People criticize toys and continually buy them. I got news for everyone. If you keep supporting something without taking a stand, they will not change. It's all about the money honey.

[LORD KUNGFU]

My ass. Where do you people think electricity comes from? You think your electrical outlet is some gateway to another dimension where electricity abounds? I'm no expert on how generators work, but I do know that most of them burn oil for fuel. I think I read in Pop Sci that if every gasoline-burning car, truck, and SUV was replaced with a totally electric car, we'd actually consume MORE oil to meet the increased demand for electricity than we would if we refined it into gasoline and burned it in the engine. Now how about we all stop blaming Bush and the Republicans for stuff that's only their fault in the minds of the extreme left?

YOur right, you are no expert on how generators work. We have solar generators, wind powered generators, and dams, water power generators. Plus other ways to make electricty. But for the most part, nuclear power is the main stable for producing electricity. I think the main argument against what your saying is this:

We do consume oil or cause other hazardous waist when producing electricity if we to have an all electric vehicle population. The rebuttle against what you state is that it is easier to monitor or filter out the few stations that would produce most of the electricity than to try and filter out millions of cars tail pipes with catalytic converters ect........so even if the generators produced enough emissons equivalant to millions of cars. Its still better to have those emissions coming from one source, than to have millions of cars smogging up our city. And we can put those generators far away from most of the population. NOt to mention the tens of thousands of people who dont give a crap and drive cars that produce more smog than a school bus.

Besides, electric cars are just better. ONce they can get any decent milage out of an eletric, the will sell quick. Electric motors are way simpler and more efficienct. Internal combustion engines are technological dinosaurs and need to be put to death. To much crap to go wrong in a gas engine. K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid.

[polidread]

here's my wasted two cents on the matter:

"we should start using protoculture fuel"

[bsu legato]

/Hippie conspiracy mode

They've already invented a source of free energy, maaaaaan. Tesla did it 100 years ago, maaaaaan, but The Man covered up his research. Where do you think all those crop circles come from? UFOs? No maaaaaan, its from secret Air Force experiments in anti-gravity. And they're putting stuff in the water to keep us all passive. Spread the word. Maaaaaaaaaan.

[Anubis]

I'm going to try something someone used last week I think it was. Thanks to whoever it was that came up with this card.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Anubis

[Mislovrit]

YOur right, you are no expert on how generators work. We have solar generators, wind powered generators,

All but useless unless you're willing to turned everything between the Westcoast and New England into one giant Wind or solar farm.

and dams,

Not enough usable rivers and too easy to seriously damage the surrounding environment.

water power generators.

?

But for the most part, nuclear power is the main stable for producing electricity.

Best feasible solution.

[Mislovrit]

realisticly nobody shud ever need anytihng bigger than an F-150/explorer. if you actually need to transport more than 4-5 kids.

As 1 to 4 of those kids can be the child's friends, teammates, classmates, cousins and etc. going to and from social functions,

then u need to stop fornicating.

Lead by example.

[eugimon]

My ass.  Where do you people think electricity comes from?  You think your electrical outlet is some gateway to another dimension where electricity abounds?  I'm no expert on how generators work, but I do know that most of them burn oil for fuel.  I think I read in Pop Sci that if every gasoline-burning car, truck, and SUV was replaced with a totally electric car, we'd actually consume MORE oil to meet the increased demand for electricity than we would if we refined it into gasoline and burned it in the engine.  Now how about we all stop blaming Bush and the Republicans for stuff that's only their fault in the minds of the extreme left?

YOur right, you are no expert on how generators work. We have solar generators, wind powered generators, and dams, water power generators. Plus other ways to make electricty. But for the most part, nuclear power is the main stable for producing electricity. I think the main argument against what your saying is this:

We do consume oil or cause other hazardous waist when producing electricity if we to have an all electric vehicle population. The rebuttle against what you state is that it is easier to monitor or filter out the few stations that would produce most of the electricity than to try and filter out millions of cars tail pipes with catalytic converters ect........so even if the generators produced enough emissons equivalant to millions of cars. Its still better to have those emissions coming from one source, than to have millions of cars smogging up our city. And we can put those generators far away from most of the population. NOt to mention the tens of thousands of people who dont give a crap and drive cars that produce more smog than a school bus.

Besides, electric cars are just better. ONce they can get any decent milage out of an eletric, the will sell quick. Electric motors are way simpler and more efficienct. Internal combustion engines are technological dinosaurs and need to be put to death. To much crap to go wrong in a gas engine. K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid.

depends on where you are talking about... in much of the eastern united states, coal and oil burning plants still make up a large slice of the energy pie.

wind and solar energy still make up only small percentages here in the US, it is only in Europe do you see large windmill famrs making a dent in the energy market.

And Americans aren't willing to make new nuclear power plants either, the tree huggers really did a number on us here and most american's are terrified of nuclear power and are convinced that a generator equals atomic bomb... I remember greenpeace came to speak at my middle school about nuclear energy and they showed clips of nukes going off, talked about global ice age and all this other propaganda crap instead of debating the issue.

People can say what they want, but for the US and most of the world... have you people ever seen the emmission maps of china and india? You want to talk about polluters? start there people. fossile fuels are still the only game in town.

[LORD KUNGFU]

Im not suggesting wind or solar energy would be enough to power a full electric population. Even if coal or oil burning plants make the electricty, its still easier to contain the pollution from one source, or more than one source. So the coal plant would burn a lot more and pollute a lot more, but its all centralized. While, each of our gas cars is a mini polluter. So by everybody having electric or other power vehicles, we would be getting rid of all the wide spread mini polluters, and just making the coal plant thats producing our electricity one big polluter and making the pollution a little easier to handle.

And India and China may have more pollution. Doesn't give us an excuse to join them. Just shows that India and CHina should go electric.

We still need fossil fuels, like in long distance driving, hauling super heavy loads ect.......But for the most part, people go to work and the grocery store, and a smaller electric vehicle would work fine for that. But still have a gas car for other reasons for the meantime. Its just funny to sea people driving these SUVs just to go to the store and get ice cream, or go to the gas station for a fountain drink, when the gas station is only 2 blocks away. Ever been to Catalina Island. Everybody just drives around in golf carts. Literally, about 90% of the people just use golf carts.

It just boils down to the fact that people are just spoiled now a days and just dont give a crap.

[NERV]

realisticly nobody shud ever need anytihng bigger than an F-150/explorer. if you actually need to transport more than 4-5 kids.

As 1 to 4 of those kids can be the child's friends, teammates, classmates, cousins and etc. going to and from social functions,

then u need to stop fornicating.

Lead by example.

that is what minivans are for, you dont need a 5.8 hemi durango to transport children, you dont need a 4 ton excursion to transport children, and you dont need a 10 mpg H2 to transport children.

'lead by example'? im 18 i dont have kids and i dont plan on having them for a long time and if i do i wont have more than 1 or 2.

[Mislovrit]

that is what minivans are for, you dont need a 5.8 hemi durango to transport children,

Minivans don't have much passenger (children and/or adults) and cargo capability as in contruction materials, equipment, heavy furniture, deerblinds and etc.

you dont need a 4 ton excursion to transport children,

Just check there is no 4 ton Excursions just 3/4 and 1 tons. Iirc anything 1.5 ton and larger are usually commerical trucks and big-rigs.

and you dont need a 10 mpg H2 to transport children.

Why the **** would anyone want a crappy faux HUMVEE? Edited November 5, 2004 by Mislovrit

[Graham]

Soccer Mom= A mother/parent that drives there kids to after school events, such as soccer. Sometimes hot, most times not.

IMHO they either drive slow, or like a Bat out of heck!

Is Soccer actually even played in the US? I thought it was just Baseball, Basketball and America Football over there?

Graham

[Gaijin]

Lots of young kids play soccer.

And as for this thread overall...there are worse things for people to be worried about then seeing an SUV on the road.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Gaijin

[eugimon]

Im not suggesting wind or solar energy would be enough to power a full electric population. Even if coal or oil burning plants make the electricty, its still easier to contain the pollution from one source, or more than one source. So the coal plant would burn a lot more and pollute a lot more, but its all centralized. While, each of our gas cars is a mini polluter. So by everybody having electric or other power vehicles, we would be getting rid of all the wide spread mini polluters, and just making the coal plant thats producing our electricity one big polluter and making the pollution a little easier to handle.

And India and China may have more pollution. Doesn't give us an excuse to join them. Just shows that India and CHina should go electric.

We still need fossil fuels, like in long distance driving, hauling super heavy loads ect.......But for the most part, people go to work and the grocery store, and a smaller electric vehicle would work fine for that. But still have a gas car for other reasons for the meantime. Its just funny to sea people driving these SUVs just to go to the store and get ice cream, or go to the gas station for a fountain drink, when the gas station is only 2 blocks away. Ever been to Catalina Island. Everybody just drives around in golf carts. Literally, about 90% of the people just use golf carts.

It just boils down to the fact that people are just spoiled now a days and just dont give a crap.

Well, when people talk about how cars should all go electric or hydrogen, they really are not thinking things through all the way.. that is, things are not that simple.

For cars to go electric, several things need to happen... higher capacity batteries is just one of them.. the other... electricty must become easier and greener to produce. Why? Well, take california for example, during the summer, even a small increase in energy consumption can lead to brown outs and even a collapse of the grid. I know that the situation is very similar and even more extreme in many asian countries like South Korea. At least in Southern California and many other mediteranian climate areas, home owners could easily begin a mass installation of solar panles on the roofs of their homes to add to the grid, but in many areas this would not be practicle. The only solution is to build more power plants.

Hydrogen poses it's own problems. For one, Hydrogen is not easy to produce.. one needs to run a large amount of electricty through some platnium in order to coax the hydrogen away from the oxygen in water. Then the issue becomes storing, transporting and distributing the hydrogen to hydrogen stations for average people to fill up. Perhaps in states where that supply line is controlled by the gov't that would be easy, but in the US, this would be a major undertaking. Since the manufacturing and distribution and resale of fuel is not controlled by any one gov't or company, it would take some convincing to get so many people to shift from petrol to hydrogen.

This would be an enormously expensive venture, brand new plants, new fleet vehicles as well as retrofitting thousands of independently owned and operated gas stations. And for what econimic insentive? How many people driving hydrogen cars does it take to make sense for these companies to shift over? And conversely, if there isn't a readily available fuel supply, how likely is it that the average consumer will buy a brand new car that he/she can only fill up at a handfull locations?

And who will pay for all this? The government? consumers? the companies?

And since the production of hydrogen requires enormous amounts of electricty, that can only mean more power plants.

Perhaps in the US, europe and in developed Asia this would mean new, green plants.. such as wind, geo thermal, or even nuclear... but for China, India, South America, this would probably mean more and more fossil fuel burning plants.. all in countries that have little or no environmental protection laws.

This is really a global problem and shouldn't be thought of as those greedy americans, although that is a BIG part of the problem. Americans tend to drive instead of walking/mass transportation and rightly so because many americans live in urban areas that do not offer real alternatives to driving. Also, standard of living has much to do with it... just look at Asian countries such as south korea and japan, which have superb subways and busses, yet as people are able to afford it, they begin to drive more and more, despite the fact that drving is often more time consuming that taking the subway.

And simply ignoring China and India's role in the pollution issue is not going to help. As developing countries, they are prime candidates for testing and implementing clean manufacturing and energy production, yet neither they, nor the rest of the world want to hold them to task (as evident by the kyoto treaty which put a heavy burden on the US and let china and india do as they pleased), as the rest of the world seems blinded by the big dollar signs in their eyes whenever they think about those two countries.

People don't give a crap because they see no incentive for giving a crap. And yet, when companies offer a decent product, like the new hybrid cars, people will line up to buy. Even though, financially, the increase in fuel efficiency has yet to offset the increase in price of the automobile... that is, over the course of the life of the car, the money you save in gas will not compensate you for the extra money you pay when you buy the car. Perhaps people do give a crap and they are willing to make sacrifices, but simply pointing your finger and blaming one segment of society or even one country will not solve things.

As for catalina, you're taking about an island city that you can walk across at leisurly pace, in an afternoon. it hardly compares to cities like Los Angeles, Bombay, or Beijing.

[LORD KUNGFU]

well, it all boils down to economics. People with money control everything, and the people in fossil fuel have all the money.

yeah, it would be hard to switch over, like you said, haveing to add this and that. But that what it takes sometimes. As long we are heading in the right direction. The fact is we are comfortable paying the higher gas prices now. But if gas were to shoot up to $10.00 a gallon tomorrow, you would see some drastic changes. And probably for the better.

[NERV]

that is what minivans are for, you dont need a 5.8 hemi durango to transport children,

Minivans don't have much passenger (children and/or adults) and cargo capability as in contruction materials, equipment, heavy furniture, deerblinds and etc.

you dont need a 4 ton excursion to transport children,

Just check there is no 4 ton Excursions just 3/4 and 1 tons. Iirc anything 1.5 ton and larger are usually commerical trucks and big-rigs.

and you dont need a 10 mpg H2 to transport children.

Why the **** would anyone want a crappy faux HUMVEE?

what are talking about? a minivan is specifically designed for transporting families and the new ones with the seats that fold into the floor give it all the storage space a family would need, and its not like your gonna be transporting construction equiptment in an SUV either, the inside would get all tore up, thats wut pickups and trailers are for.

Ford Excursion Curb Weight: 7190 lbs. Gross Weight: 8900 lbs.

either way u look at it its basicly 4 tons

[JB0]

i think the gov should just step in and say "f- you all, no more gas cars!" and give each of us a free electric car with free lifetime maintenance. but of course, even if we did have to pay for the electric cars, they wouldn't go for it cuz their greedy little paws have a stake in oil.(ahem*bush*ahem)

But electrical cars aren't cleaner. They just change where the pollution comes from.

A rise in electrical cars will mean more electirical plants to meet the surge in electricity demand. And as lobbyists have made nuclear plants economically unfeasable, they will be burning fossil fuels. Most often coal. They are NOT clean power sources.

Add to this the massive amount of batteries electrical cars need, which are disgusting devices when disposed of, and electrical cars really aren't worth it.

There's also serious range problems with them currently.

I say use hybrid cars. They're a nice compromise position.

[Warmaker]

I think in general, people who listen to celebrities and rock stars for their politcal insights, should have their heads examined.

Unforutnately, that'd be something like 75-95% of America, and probably 99% of the residents in Southern California.

Well, if I go back to school in the future, at least I know what to study... looks like there's a huge demand for psychiatrists...

Hey! Take it easy! Some of us in SoCal are just stationed here!

[1st Border Red Devil]

And as lobbyists have made nuclear plants economically unfeasable, they will be burning fossil fuels.

Ain't that the truth. I hadn't realised that there hasn't been a new nuclear power plant in this country for more than 20 yrs.